Athlon on ND this year, wow.

[Irish Man3]

Barkely has a better arm and is more accurate than Dayne. He makes dumb decisions but if you ask any neutral fan in the country, they're taking Barkely everyday. He's just shown more to this point. He's more proven than Dayne.

When was TJ great? Never. Thats an over statements and a half. He started the season solid, but great? That's "simply wrong."

As far as wide recievers, we have nothing outside of Floyd. You take away that Michigan State game and Theo had a decent year at best. Can he stay healthy for a whole year at his size over the middle? There are questions everywhere.

As for our defense, the only reason you can name players on the ND defense is because your a fan. ND's defense has been a joke for the last decade. We looked much improved in the last four games but let's not forget Navy and other blunders throughout the year.

As good as our recruiting class was this past year, theirs was better.

Like I said, it will come down to coaching and I think that's where we have the edge. ND's offense will give Kiffin's defense everyday of the week. Monty has proven that he doesn't have an answer for the spread.

I'll agree with you that Mike has proven he is one of the best in the country (just so your aware... Robert Woods isn't to shabby) but what has Cierre proved? He was very inconsistent and got the majority of his carries because Armando was hurt. He has proved nothing as well.

 

[rikkitikki08]

I would say right around 20 is much more realistic.

 

[IrishLax]

Seems like it is debate time!

Barkely has a better arm and is more accurate than Dayne. He makes dumb decisions but if you ask any neutral fan in the country, they're taking Barkely everyday. He's just shown more to this point. He's more proven than Dayne.

College football and the NFL are litterred with guys who never won anything even though they had great arms and were accurate. Decision making makes or breaks a QB... if you don't believe me go take a look at Tom Brady's draft evaluation. He still has a "weak arm" and "doesn't through the tightest spiral" but he is one of the greatest QBs of all time because, like Peyton Manning, he is in a great system where he can be a great decision maker. "Fans" might choose Barkley every time because he has shown more (which is ironic because this entire time one or both have you guys have been arguing in favor of guys who haven't shown anything), but ask any USC fan what they think about Barkley and half will tell you he sucks.

When was TJ great? Never. Thats an over statements and a half. He started the season solid, but great? That's "simply wrong."

True, great is an overstatement. But in the first three games before he developed a nagging injury he got over 40+ yards receiving a game, and for comparison Rojo and Woods got 53 and 60 yards a game each for SC. So he started pretty good, definitely not great. Point you.

As far as wide recievers, we have nothing outside of Floyd. You take away that Michigan State game and Theo had a decent year at best. Can he stay healthy for a whole year at his size over the middle? There are questions everywhere.

There is no doubt that if Theo is healthy and playing slot that he is a dynamic/game changing guy. If he wasn't that good of a player the coaches wouldn't have spent time discussing a move to RB to get him more touches, etc. Health is a concern, but if 100% he is an elite option in the slot and don't think that is really even debatable.

As for our defense, the only reason you can name players on the ND defense is because your a fan. ND's defense has been a joke for the last decade. We looked much improved in the last four games but let's not forget Navy and other blunders throughout the year.

Bull****!!!! Everyone in the country knows Te'o. Harrison Smith is also far from an unknown even among casual fans with how he closed last year and is an expected AA candidate. There are plenty of USC fans on sites like wearesc.com that can name ~5+ players on our defense... but most people on here could not come close to that for theirs. Why? Because they are a bunch of unproven guys who played AWFUL last year. And a lot of them in the secondary weren't highly touted/recruited at all.

As good as our recruiting class was this past year, theirs was better.

Extremely debatable....

Like I said, it will come down to coaching and I think that's where we have the edge. ND's offense will give Kiffin's defense everyday of the week. Monty has proven that he doesn't have an answer for the spread.

I'll agree with you that Mike has proven he is one of the best in the country (just so your aware... Robert Woods isn't to shabby) but what has Cierre proved? He was very inconsistent and got the majority of his carries because Armando was hurt. He has proved nothing as well.

Saying Cierre has proved nothing while touting USC's RBs is highly ironic. Your only good point is that TJ Jones is still a huge question mark so you can probably give them an edge on WR. I only mildly disagree with you about QB (because if Barkley improves his decision making he is definitely better than Dayne) and RB (because they do have way more depth and I've never debated that).

But you're way off on defense. And you didn't touch on the OL at all. That is the entire crux of why you cannot say that USC is a super dooper talented team. Their defense is full of question marks from top to bottom and their OL is patchwork at best. 5+11 = 16 out of 22 guys who are not "more talented" than most teams.

 

[ACamp1900]

How am I wrong?

very easily apparently.

 

[GoIrish41]

coaching

Kiffen vs. Kelly - ND by a country mile

 

[ACamp1900]

I'm not even about to compare ND to SC... SCrew them... but sorry, you can not name ten other teams in the country that USC is "not even close to" in terms of pure talent...

 

[Irish Man3]

Outside of Teo, more people know about Aaron Lynch than any of our other defensive players and the kid is spring game deep into his career. I'll give you an outside point for Harrison Smith for his performance at the end of the season but more national media talks about how bad J Harris played, than how good Harrison Smith played. Don't get me wrong, I hope Harrison can continue to step up and let the country see him for the football player that he can be rather than just an athlete. Outside of those two you have who? A lot of people talk about our secondary huh? Or our front seven that was destroyed by Navy? As I said earlier, it goes from Manti to.... Lynch.

USC's defense has some serious questions as well. Their secondary is mediocore at best, so point taken. However, please don't act like we have the edge talent-wise through the whole starting eleven.

The recruiting classes are both very good, but I think when you break it down, (ND glasses off for the moment) USC's class is superior. What the coaches do with the talent remains to be seen. Again, the clear edge goes to our coaching staff.

The whole idea about Theo Riddick sounds good but, again, your basing your opinion on half of ONE football season at wide reciever. He is a game changer in open space agreed. The health question is still there and is a legit concern.

The Barkely vs Crist discussion is a waste of my time.

You contnue to point out the flaws in their OL depth and talent, but please describe to me where ND has the advantage. Our OL could be considered suspect at best. Talk to the mods on ISD who are also very concerned about our OL. Not sure if your a member, but if you are, listen to the final 15 minutes of this past weeks Power Hour. Where is our experianced depth and talent? I don't care how good Aaron Lynch is, the fact is he just turned 18 and ran through every member of our OL like they were invisible. That includes the double teams he destroyed. Both lines are very suspect going into the season.

 

[GreatGolson]

what. the. bitches....

 

[IrishLax]

I'm not even about to compare ND to SC... SCrew them... but sorry, you can not name ten other teams in the country that USC is "not even close to" in terms of pure talent...

That isn't what I said. I said they are not close to being #1 and likely outside of the top ten. The OP said: "Nobody in the country has more TALENT, than USC" And I said: "Speaking on talent, not in terms of "stars" but in terms of who actually has the most talented players who have proven they can dominate in the college game, USC is not even close. They aren't even in the top 10 much less the best in the country."

My premise is that while USC is loaded at WR/RB/QB they have severe deficiencies in depth, experience and talent on the OL and on defense. Debating that USC has a good OL is comical if you follow their program at all or watched their spring game. But that is neither here nor there.

In my opinion here are 10 teams I think have more "talent" than USC:
1. Alabama
2. LSU
3. Florida State
4. Texas
5. Florida
6. Oklahoma
7. Ohio State
8. Notre Dame
9. Nebraska
10. Georgia

You can probably start a debate around #7 on who has more talent... but I still stand by the fact that USC's defense is awful until they prove otherwise and that is why Ohio State, Notre Dame and Nebraska all get an edge. At #10 it becomes a toss up between a lot of teams... so if you want to throw USC in at #10, cool. I can buy that.

There is no way you can look at recruiting class rankings + the product on the field and tell me that USC is "more talented" than any of the top 6 teams. While Texas and Florida are coming off down years they are still brimming with developed talent on both sides of the ball at positions where USC is literally using walk ons as starters.

 

[IrishLax]

You contnue to point out the flaws in their OL depth and talent, but please describe to me where ND has the advantage. Our OL could be considered suspect at best. Talk to the mods on ISD who are also very concerned about our OL. Not sure if your a member, but if you are, listen to the final 15 minutes of this past weeks Power Hour. Where is our experianced depth and talent? I don't care how good Aaron Lynch is, the fact is he just turned 18 and ran through every member of our OL like they were invisible. That includes the double teams he destroyed. Both lines are very suspect going into the season.

I think it's naive to think that an OL forced to play every snap both ways with very minimal rest is going to not get beaten by a guy like Lynch who is playing like this is his Super Bowl. Zach Martin is very good, Dever was a very pleasant surprise last year as well (see: the first game where he more than held his own against an NFL 1st rounder in Kerrigan) and I like Cave a lot at center. Time will tell how the OL plays as a cohesive unit, but I'm very confident in our two tackles and think we should be very B+ as a unit.

USC loses their best OL to draft early entry, and while I haven't heard what the ISD mods have been saying... I have read USC boards that are really worried about their OL and saying things about true frosh linemen having to come in and contribute immediately/with their lack of depth injuries being a huge concern were one to happen. We don't have a world beater OL, but I haven't read nearly anything as negative as what I have read about the USC OL. The things I have read about ND are mostly positive and about being ~8 deep on the OL with guys currently on the roster.

If you want to say both our OL and USC's OL suck so it's a wash... fine, that's your opinion. But our OL played extremely well against a Miami who was supposed to have a great pass rush and I don't see any reasons for pessimism.

 

[condoms SUCk]

Couple things,
1). It’s a preseason ranking, and we all know how “realistic” those rankings are. It’s just guess work.
2). The only reason they are talking about ND being in the top 10 or 5 is to just to get attention and sell magazines, that’s all. ND will be around the 20ish mark, which is exactly where I would put us.
3). Why try and argue the point of who has more talent, I think it is just a waste of time. I don’t give sh*t if a team is more talented, it’s about the coach and the heart of the team. Talent does help, but just look at ND for the past 10-15 years. We all know that the more talented team does not always win or meet expectations.

 

[irish1958]

Who had more "talent" ND or U Conn? ND or Syracuse? ND or Navy? etc., etc., etc!
In college what wins games is coaching which includes having the players in the correct position with the correct motivation and the correct game plan. Talent is secondary.
In the pros, not so much.
ND will finish in the top five unless they have another rash of injuries, as they did last year.
Stanford last year had NO injuries; nada, none.
We would have been 10-2 or11-1 if we had been that fortunate.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Who had more "talent" ND or U Conn? ND or Syracuse? ND or Navy? etc., etc., etc!
In college what wins games is coaching which includes having the players in the correct position with the correct motivation and the correct game plan. Talent is secondary.
In the pros, not so much.
ND will finish in the top five unless they have another rash of injuries, as they did last year.
Stanford last year had NO injuries; nada, none.
We would have been 10-2 or11-1 if we had been that fortunate.

LAX, I agree with you in a lot of areas. But I'll tell you where I think you're wrong:

* You have a lot of 'if's' in there for ND's receivers. IF TJ weren't hurt, IF Theo didn't get hurt. Gun to my head, I take their group (with Farmer, Blackwell and Lee coming next year). Woods is a phenom...so is Floyd. After that, a bunch of guys who have proven nothing, Theo included (and I LOVE Theo). With ND guys, we are going off of what we believe their talent is. Well, SC has a ****load of talent too, and Prater has been KILLING it in practice when he's healthy, and he's a beast. We have no one compared to him. And Farmer, by all accounts, is another insanely talented wideout. Their 3 freshman coming > our 2 freshman coming in.

* Their secondary has 2 very good players. TJ McDonald has AA written all over him, Watched him closely in the spring game to see what the fuss was about, and he's legit. Also, Robey is niiiiice. He was a freshman starter last year, and yeah, he got beat a ton, but he improved form the beginning of the year and has been dominant in practice this spring. So to say their secondary all sucks is wrong IMO. Mostly suck? Yes.

* Dude, i can't get with you on Crist being a wash with Barkley, I just can't. Not until Crist proves it on the field. As much as I'm nt a big Barkley fan, he has done MUCH more on the field than Crist has, and quite frankly, it's not even close. Now, if Crist goes out and plays like we hope he can, then you're point will be made. But as of right now, you won't find anyone anywhere in the country who agrees with you, ND fans included.

* Here's what it comes down to: Player for player, I'd take SC. Team wise and unit for unit - I'll take ND. I saw their spring game, and they have some serious talent, most of it hurt. But don't sleep on their pure, God-given talent. The difference is, as has been mentioned...coaching coaching coaching. Don't think that SC had no talent because their defense sucked, They were still loaded. It's just that they were in a new system and admittedly has NO CLUE on what they were doing. Don't mistake ignorance for no talent. And to add to that, they had no depth, so they never tackled in practice and therefore were horrible at it in games. And because of a lack of depth, their D-Line completely burned out in the 2nd halves of games and got run over (See: Oregon and ND, among many others.)

Meanwhile, ND's defense just got better and better as the year went along, because they got comfortable in the system. Our talent didn't suddenly get better...guys just figured out what the hell they were doing. SC's guys never figured it out.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

LAX, I agree with you in a lot of areas. But I'll tell you where I think you're wrong:

* You have a lot of 'if's' in there for ND's receivers. IF TJ weren't hurt, IF Theo didn't get hurt. Gun to my head, I take their group (with Farmer, Blackwell and Lee coming next year). Woods is a phenom...so is Floyd. After that, a bunch of guys who have proven nothing, Theo included (and I LOVE Theo). With ND guys, we are going off of what we believe their talent is. Well, SC has a ****load of talent too, and Prater has been KILLING it in practice when he's healthy, and he's a beast. We have no one compared to him. And Farmer, by all accounts, is another insanely talented wideout. Their 3 freshman coming > our 2 freshman coming in.

* Their secondary has 2 very good players. TJ McDonald has AA written all over him, Watched him closely in the spring game to see what the fuss was about, and he's legit. Also, Robey is niiiiice. He was a freshman starter last year, and yeah, he got beat a ton, but he improved form the beginning of the year and has been dominant in practice this spring. So to say their secondary all sucks is wrong IMO. Mostly suck? Yes.

* Dude, i can't get with you on Crist being a wash with Barkley, I just can't. Not until Crist proves it on the field. As much as I'm nt a big Barkley fan, he has done MUCH more on the field than Crist has, and quite frankly, it's not even close. Now, if Crist goes out and plays like we hope he can, then you're point will be made. But as of right now, you won't find anyone anywhere in the country who agrees with you, ND fans included.

* Here's what it comes down to: Player for player, I'd take SC. Team wise and unit for unit - I'll take ND. I saw their spring game, and they have some serious talent, most of it hurt. But don't sleep on their pure, God-given talent. The difference is, as has been mentioned...coaching coaching coaching. Don't think that SC had no talent because their defense sucked, They were still loaded. It's just that they were in a new system and admittedly has NO CLUE on what they were doing. Don't mistake ignorance for no talent. And to add to that, they had no depth, so they never tackled in practice and therefore were horrible at it in games. And because of a lack of depth, their D-Line completely burned out in the 2nd halves of games and got run over (See: Oregon and ND, among many others.)

Meanwhile, ND's defense just got better and better as the year went along, because they got comfortable in the system. Our talent didn't suddenly get better...guys just figured out what the hell they were doing. SC's guys never figured it out.

^This!

 

[IrishLax]

LAX, I agree with you in a lot of areas. But I'll tell you where I think you're wrong:

* You have a lot of 'if's' in there for ND's receivers. IF TJ weren't hurt, IF Theo didn't get hurt. Gun to my head, I take their group (with Farmer, Blackwell and Lee coming next year). Woods is a phenom...so is Floyd. After that, a bunch of guys who have proven nothing, Theo included (and I LOVE Theo). With ND guys, we are going off of what we believe their talent is. Well, SC has a ****load of talent too, and Prater has been KILLING it in practice when he's healthy, and he's a beast. We have no one compared to him. And Farmer, by all accounts, is another insanely talented wideout. Their 3 freshman coming > our 2 freshman coming in.

* Their secondary has 2 very good players. TJ McDonald has AA written all over him, Watched him closely in the spring game to see what the fuss was about, and he's legit. Also, Robey is niiiiice. He was a freshman starter last year, and yeah, he got beat a ton, but he improved form the beginning of the year and has been dominant in practice this spring. So to say their secondary all sucks is wrong IMO. Mostly suck? Yes.

* Dude, i can't get with you on Crist being a wash with Barkley, I just can't. Not until Crist proves it on the field. As much as I'm nt a big Barkley fan, he has done MUCH more on the field than Crist has, and quite frankly, it's not even close. Now, if Crist goes out and plays like we hope he can, then you're point will be made. But as of right now, you won't find anyone anywhere in the country who agrees with you, ND fans included.

* Here's what it comes down to: Player for player, I'd take SC. Team wise and unit for unit - I'll take ND. I saw their spring game, and they have some serious talent, most of it hurt. But don't sleep on their pure, God-given talent. The difference is, as has been mentioned...coaching coaching coaching. Don't think that SC had no talent because their defense sucked, They were still loaded. It's just that they were in a new system and admittedly has NO CLUE on what they were doing. Don't mistake ignorance for no talent. And to add to that, they had no depth, so they never tackled in practice and therefore were horrible at it in games. And because of a lack of depth, their D-Line completely burned out in the 2nd halves of games and got run over (See: Oregon and ND, among many others.)

Meanwhile, ND's defense just got better and better as the year went along, because they got comfortable in the system. Our talent didn't suddenly get better...guys just figured out what the hell they were doing. SC's guys never figured it out.

I defer to the expert.

 

[Old Man Mike]

It is rather boggling to me that just because some outside football book selling agency gave Notre Dame an extremely Green-Kool-Aid expectation for the upcoming season, that a "discussion" arises which not only debates that rating but begins to diss specific elements of our team.

I don't give a damm what certain people on ISD may have said. I trust Kelly that he is pleased with the O-Line and that he believes that he has eight people capable of playing winning football, and with Watt [who wasn't available for the Spring game] nine. Coach believes that the O-Line will be one of the team's strengths and comments from them say that that's the way they're taking their role too --- i.e. Team Leaders.

Anyone who is rating our O-Line as "suspect" needs their head examined. That line at the end of the season [even when Watt was replacing Stewart] was operating like five-fingers of an iron glove. Assuming that they're suddenly going to forget that is ... bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb.

In the end whothehellcares about USC's "talent level"? I've seen those lie-in-the-Sun fancy reputations come out and play all sorts of unmotivated performances, even showing that they are often not in anything like championship physical shape, let alone mental. The argument about whether ND or USC will be the better team is about "team".

I believe that our guys will come out this season with comparable raw talent in tremendous shape and empowered by discipline and superior systems. Whether we win or not will depend upon the ability of our quarterback to function, and perhaps to a lesser extent, our running back to stay healthy. It surely will not ride on our line being somehow mediocre.

 

[dales5050]

My premise is that while USC is loaded at WR/RB/QB they have severe deficiencies in depth, experience and talent on the OL and on defense. .

Being loaded at D-Line, O-Line, DBs is so much more important than having 5 stud RBs and QBs IMO. While depth does come into play..sometimes...most often only 1 player really stands out.

USC can take the 'stable' of RBs and go f*ck themselves. They still do not have a set of LBs or DBs who have proven anything.

I like your style Lax and agree with what you are saying.

 

[irishpat183]

I think Lax is just drinking too much Irish Kool-aid! Love me some green juice too, but the question was to who was more talented. ND IS NOT at that level.....Yet.

Not bashing our boys, but in no way shape or form do we have as much talent as USC. Sorry, we just don't.

Now, are we a better team? Better coached? I absolutley think so. But that wasn't the question.

USC, as much as I hate them, are stacked every year. They generally land in the top 5 in recruiting every year. One thing they do well, is bring in the talent and game changers. They may cheat to do it, but that's another issue.

With all that said, I think we're on our way up and with a couple more classes like this last one, we'll be oozing with talent as well. And we'll actually have the coaching to utilize it.

Go Irish

 

[ACamp1900]

idk if USC is clearly more talented than we are... but again, the list of teams mentioned do not clearly have more talent than USC either... not one of them. as OMM pointed out, SC may not be the best team... but for a pure star ranking/indy talent from player to player/etc. there is not one team in the country that is miles above USC as some have claimed... there just isn't... plenty of teams use their talent much better and don't have the holes SC does but there you have it... kind of like our 05-06 ND team... very talented, but not a complete team... that's how I view SC currently.

 

[IrishLax]

I think Lax is just drinking too much Irish Kool-aid! Love me some green juice too, but the question was to who was more talented. ND IS NOT at that level.....Yet.

Not bashing our boys, but in no way shape or form do we have as much talent as USC. Sorry, we just don't.

Now, are we a better team? Better coached? I absolutley think so. But that wasn't the question.

USC, as much as I hate them, are stacked every year. They generally land in the top 5 in recruiting every year. One thing they do well, is bring in the talent and game changers. They may cheat to do it, but that's another issue.

With all that said, I think we're on our way up and with a couple more classes like this last one, we'll be oozing with talent as well. And we'll actually have the coaching to utilize it.

Go Irish

Haha not really... I've said many times I expect us to be a 8/9 win team without Floyd and a 10/11 win team with him. Maybe 10/11 wins is too optimistic, but I have a lot of faith in our defense if we find a good Brian Smith replacement at ILB.

To the second part I bolded, if you look back at their last 4 recruiting classes you are correct... they are ranked quite well. But most of their "studs" are at skill positions (WR/RB/QB) and you can only have so many of those guys on the field at the same time. Right now they really have serious issues on the OL... this is just a fact. Ask any SC fan if they are comfortable with the depth/experience/talent they have there. Their defense has some nice pieces but, as a whole, also has some walk-ons, converted track stars, etc. playing fill in roles. This is a far cry from a team where Clay Matthews had trouble breaking the lineup as a senior because rookie of the year Brian Cushing was starting in front of him. Those teams were STACKED on both sides of the ball... these teams are partially stacked and partially spotty. I think NDinLA put it best in his post.

So what I'm getting to is that the reason why I said ND is more talented than USC is that unit by unit we are stronger on defense and we are stronger on the OL. It has less to do with ND being awesome and me drinking the Kool Aid, and more to do with my opinion of some of USC's units/players being sketchy until I see them show me something else.

 

[NDinL.A.]

idk if USC is clearly more talented than we are... but again, the list of teams mentioned do not clearly have more talent than USC either... not one of them. as OMM pointed out, SC may not be the best team... but for a pure star ranking/indy talent from player to player/etc. there is not one team in the country that is miles above USC as some have claimed... there just isn't... plenty of teams use their talent much better and don't have the holes SC does but there you have it... kind of like our 05-06 ND team... very talented, but not a complete team... that's how I view SC currently.

Just based on star ratings...here is USC's last 5 years recruiting:

4th
1st
4th
8th
2nd

Insane.

And we beat them in the Coliseum with a true freshman QB who gave them 4 turnovers. Me likey.

 

[IrishLax]

idk if USC is clearly more talented than we are... but again, the list of teams mentioned do not clearly have more talent than USC either... not one of them. as OMM pointed out, SC may not be the best team... but for a pure star ranking/indy talent from player to player/etc. there is not one team in the country that is miles above USC as some have claimed... there just isn't... plenty of teams use their talent much better and don't have the holes SC does but there you have it... kind of like our 05-06 ND team... very talented, but not a complete team... that's how I view SC currently.

You're seriously going to sit here and tell me Alabama doesn't have more talent than USC? USC wins on QB/WR and Alabama has more talent at literally every other position.

 

[ACamp1900]

You're seriously going to sit here and tell me Alabama doesn't have more talent than USC? USC wins on QB/WR and Alabama has more talent at literally every other position.

yes, that's what I'm saying... and no that's not what I'm saying... lol ... the biggest difference between bama and SC is the coaching staff... other then that bama is not "miles ahead"... can you make the case they are the more talented team?... sure, and I'd say they are... but they are not heads and shoulders above SC... not even close.

man, you're gonna to have to be on suicide watch if SC comes into our house and runs us out of our building, which they are very capable of doing, because of their raw talent.

 

[IrishLax]

yes, that's what I'm saying... and no that's not what I'm saying... lol ... the biggest difference between bama and SC is the coaching staff... other then that bama is not "miles ahead"... can you make the case they are the more talented team?... sure, and I'd say they are... but they are not heads and shoulders above SC... not even close.

man, you're gonna to have to be on suicide watch if SC comes into our house and runs us out of our building, which they are very capable of doing, because of their raw talent.

If we enter that game 6-0 with a healthy Mike Floyd and that happens you are 1000% correct lol

If we enter the game 4-2 or 3-3 with losses to Michigan, USF, MSU, etc. I'll be expecting it... and/or already be dead.

 

[Irish Man3]

LAX, I agree with you in a lot of areas. But I'll tell you where I think you're wrong:

* You have a lot of 'if's' in there for ND's receivers. IF TJ weren't hurt, IF Theo didn't get hurt. Gun to my head, I take their group (with Farmer, Blackwell and Lee coming next year). Woods is a phenom...so is Floyd. After that, a bunch of guys who have proven nothing, Theo included (and I LOVE Theo). With ND guys, we are going off of what we believe their talent is. Well, SC has a ****load of talent too, and Prater has been KILLING it in practice when he's healthy, and he's a beast. We have no one compared to him. And Farmer, by all accounts, is another insanely talented wideout. Their 3 freshman coming > our 2 freshman coming in.

* Their secondary has 2 very good players. TJ McDonald has AA written all over him, Watched him closely in the spring game to see what the fuss was about, and he's legit. Also, Robey is niiiiice. He was a freshman starter last year, and yeah, he got beat a ton, but he improved form the beginning of the year and has been dominant in practice this spring. So to say their secondary all sucks is wrong IMO. Mostly suck? Yes.

* Dude, i can't get with you on Crist being a wash with Barkley, I just can't. Not until Crist proves it on the field. As much as I'm nt a big Barkley fan, he has done MUCH more on the field than Crist has, and quite frankly, it's not even close. Now, if Crist goes out and plays like we hope he can, then you're point will be made. But as of right now, you won't find anyone anywhere in the country who agrees with you, ND fans included.

* Here's what it comes down to: Player for player, I'd take SC. Team wise and unit for unit - I'll take ND. I saw their spring game, and they have some serious talent, most of it hurt. But don't sleep on their pure, God-given talent. The difference is, as has been mentioned...coaching coaching coaching. Don't think that SC had no talent because their defense sucked, They were still loaded. It's just that they were in a new system and admittedly has NO CLUE on what they were doing. Don't mistake ignorance for no talent. And to add to that, they had no depth, so they never tackled in practice and therefore were horrible at it in games. And because of a lack of depth, their D-Line completely burned out in the 2nd halves of games and got run over (See: Oregon and ND, among many others.)

Meanwhile, ND's defense just got better and better as the year went along, because they got comfortable in the system. Our talent didn't suddenly get better...guys just figured out what the hell they were doing. SC's guys never figured it out.

For the most part, what I said on most accounts. In the end, coaching gives us the edge.

 

[Irish Man3]

It is rather boggling to me that just because some outside football book selling agency gave Notre Dame an extremely Green-Kool-Aid expectation for the upcoming season, that a "discussion" arises which not only debates that rating but begins to diss specific elements of our team.

I don't give a damm what certain people on ISD may have said. I trust Kelly that he is pleased with the O-Line and that he believes that he has eight people capable of playing winning football, and with Watt [who wasn't available for the Spring game] nine. Coach believes that the O-Line will be one of the team's strengths and comments from them say that that's the way they're taking their role too --- i.e. Team Leaders.

Anyone who is rating our O-Line as "suspect" needs their head examined. That line at the end of the season [even when Watt was replacing Stewart] was operating like five-fingers of an iron glove. Assuming that they're suddenly going to forget that is ... bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb.

In the end whothehellcares about USC's "talent level"? I've seen those lie-in-the-Sun fancy reputations come out and play all sorts of unmotivated performances, even showing that they are often not in anything like championship physical shape, let alone mental. The argument about whether ND or USC will be the better team is about "team".

I believe that our guys will come out this season with comparable raw talent in tremendous shape and empowered by discipline and superior systems. Whether we win or not will depend upon the ability of our quarterback to function, and perhaps to a lesser extent, our running back to stay healthy. It surely will not ride on our line being somehow mediocre.

Then that's just about everyone except for yourself. What have the players outside of our staring 5 proved? We've heard in practice about how solid they're coming along and that's it. Kuddos to you for having trust in Brian Kelly, but to say that anyone questioning the offensive line needs their head examined is ignorant. It is a concern heading into the season. Outside of the quaterback position, one of the biggest concerns on this team.

 

[IrishLax]

Then that's just about everyone except for yourself. What have the players outside of our staring 5 proved? We've heard in practice about how solid they're coming along and that's it. Kuddos to you for having trust in Brian Kelly, but to say that anyone questioning the offensive line needs their head examined is ignorant. It is a concern heading into the season. Outside of the quaterback position, one of the biggest concerns on this team.

But that's the point... our starting 5 (6? need to double check the experience of some guys) has two rock solid tackles and a center who was both very highly rated and made great strides last year as time went on. We only replace Chris Stewart and our line played at a B/B+ level last year with multiple first-year starters. How could they not progress this year?

USC loses an NFL first round talent and has serious experience/depth/talent concerns with *some* of their guys. I don't see how you can be so adamantly negative about our OL while not being more negative on what SC has to work with.

 

[TDHeysus]

i think its best for ND to start as lowly ranked as possible but yet to stay within striking distance of the top8 by the end of the year. I think the best ranking for ND, given the current state of the program, is around 25-30. Initially, this will keep the national sky-high expectations (pressure on the players, coaches) to a minimum. As the wins pile up, ND will rise thru the polls, gaining confidence as expections and pressure increases.

Hopefully, when ND is a top10 ranked team, they will have top10 ranked expectations. instead of being a top20-25 team with top10 expectations.

 

[Irish Man3]

But that's the point... our starting 5 (6? need to double check the experience of some guys) has two rock solid tackles and a center who was both very highly rated and made great strides last year as time went on. We only replace Chris Stewart and our line played at a B/B+ level last year with multiple first-year starters. How could they not progress this year?

USC loses an NFL first round talent and has serious experience/depth/talent concerns with *some* of their guys. I don't see how you can be so adamantly negative about our OL while not being more negative on what SC has to work with.

Both lines need work and have questions. To say we are 8-9 deep at this point is not accurate. We have talented guys with no experiance. Im not as high on the lines performance last year as you are I guess. We made strides towards the end, but let's wait and see if the potential had maxed out, or we were just starting to find our strengths. Like I said, questions remain on both sides.

Smith ( the 1st round pick you continue to bring up) played right tackle didn't he? He was the second best tackle on the team and is being considered a possible top 15 pick. I may be off on this but I am close to positive he played left tackle. Don't forget they were also in the first year of an entire staff makeover. Both teams will make strides.

 

[Rocket89]

Then that's just about everyone except for yourself. What have the players outside of our staring 5 proved? We've heard in practice about how solid they're coming along and that's it. Kuddos to you for having trust in Brian Kelly, but to say that anyone questioning the offensive line needs their head examined is ignorant. It is a concern heading into the season. Outside of the quaterback position, one of the biggest concerns on this team.

I disagree.

A.) We gave up only 19 sacks last year, which is a tremendous stat given how much we threw the ball in 2010. We the exception of most of the USC and Stanford games, the offensive line wasn't just good in pass blocking, they were down right dominant.

B.) We're returning 4 of 5 starters, and we probably lost our weakest link.

Yes we didn't run the ball that well last year, but we improved at the end of the season and generally did a good job here. I've said it for a while now we need better talent at running back and it's not always our O-line's fault when we can't dominate teams on the ground. I think C. Wood is going to change a lot of these perceptions, and even if Jonas Gray is still averaging 4-point whatever yards a carry, people are going to say our run blocking has improved (which it naturally probably will) but a lot of that will be because Wood is so dynamic.

I just don't see how the O-line is a concern, and certainly not one of the biggest concerns on the team. Quarterback play, depth at running back, playmakers at wide receiver, depth at corner, two starters at linebacker, punt returner, kick returner...I mean that's a whole lot of concerns that don't come anywhere close to the offensive line.

So you're concerned about the linemen who aren't starting? Why? That just seems really picky to me, considering the vast majority of the best teams in college football don't really have any "proven" linemen past their first or second backup. We've got a handful of veterans behind our starters, and a handful of young players back there too...what can these guys do to make you not be so concerned? Kelly says good things about them (he usually doesn't BS us, the players he has said look good have played well) and they are backups and can't really prove anything unless our starters (who happen to be pretty good) get injured.

I just think what you're saying is a little silly. Every preseason look at Notre Dame is going to list the offensive line as a strength. In some cases, it will be a major strength. Because well...it is.