Fresh take on Grades/ Scores/ Admissions at Colleges

[Polish Leppy 22]

I'm getting my master's and teaching cert in Secondary Education and came across some fascinating information in one of my classes this week. We all know how obsessed we have become over past decades with SAT and ACT scores. Many elite schools like Stanford, UCLA, etc. are now starting to toss them out the window for admissions. Why?

Research and data over a long time show correlation numbers comparing SAT scores with academic success in college VS a student's GPA in high school with academic success in college. What we found...it's a load of bull. Here are the numbers

A high school student's SAT score in correlation with academic success in college: 22%

A high school student's GPA as it correlates to academic success in college: 58%

What does this mean for ND? Bottom line...don't get married to SAT or ACT scores. Look at their courses, their GPA, what their teachers say about their level of preparation and work habits as a means for predicting college success. SAT and ACT aren't going to measure dedication, work ethic, drive, motivation, discipline, etc. If the kid wants to work and is invested in what they're doing, you'll get the results.

I know that's a lot of education hoopla and I'm not saying colleges should just admit everyone, but they should pay far more attention to GPA and teachers' comments than ACT or SAT. I hope this bodes well for the future of ND student athletes across the board.

 

[ACamp1900]

I've hade great discussions about stuff like this...

my basic thought is... the more testing we do the worse off our education system will be...

just let the teacher's teach and get out of the way... the ammount of testing that kids go through now is crazy... by time they get to high school and are ready to take the ACT or SAT they have had some many "most important test to date" that it's not as big a deal... it's as if they are desensitized to "big tests" and just get burnt out on it... whereas their grades are fine, the test scores don't matchup...

anyway, I know this wasn't exactly where the TC was going but eh,... food for thought

 

[irishpat183]

While I agree that more attention should be paid to the GPA, habits, and teacher recommendations...Testing is a good method in telling you if the kid is actually learning anything.

Anyone can go to class and skate by with doing a few homework assignments and pull a 3.0....but the testing will tell you if they're actually RETAINING any of that info. That's truly learning something.

But I do agree that more attention should be put on the students overall body of work.

 

[Mirer3Powlus]

I thought this was already widely known, but that's some eye opening stuff with the numbers you provided. ACT and SAT scores are a better judgement of actual intelligence (you don't luck into a 32 ACT score, for example), but we're not looking for the brightest in the world when it comes to football. As a fan, I want kids who are dedicated to the classroom and will work their butts off for a B... while also winning us some games. I'm proud to say that I'm a supporter of one of the few universities these days where it seems that you can have both.

 

[Jason Pham]

In defense of the admissions office at Notre Dame, I do know they seem to have a more holistic view of the applicant than just the bare numbers. Whatever the weaknesses of anecdotal evidence may be, I know of more than a few valedictorians who were denied admissions to the universities when their less-impressive-by-the-numbers classmates were accepted. When their applications were compared, it looked like the more well-rounded of the two were offered.

That said, I wonder how one would go about measuring diligence, ambition, character, etc. qualitatively. Test scores, in the light of the difficulty of measuring those other qualities, seem to be a school's only recourse in comparing its applicants.

Another thing that pressures schools to focus on those numbers are ranking services for colleges and universities, namely US News. Parents and prospective students have become increasingly aware of the rankings of the schools and schools, consequently, depend on these rankings for applicants. Since the GPAs and test scores of each incoming class figures largely into those rankings, schools are forced to pay at least some attention to those numbers.

I will say however that those numbers are hardly a good measure of one's abilities. I had dismal numbers coming out of high school, but I am dominating at ND and am on my way to a competitive law school. Those numbers are unfortunately the best thing we've got.

 

[InKellyITrust]

In defense of the admissions office at Notre Dame, I do know they seem to have a more holistic view of the applicant than just the bare numbers. Whatever the weaknesses of anecdotal evidence may be, I know of more than a few valedictorians who were denied admissions to the universities when their less-impressive-by-the-numbers classmates were accepted. When their applications were compared, it looked like the more well-rounded of the two were offered.

That said, I wonder how one would go about measuring diligence, ambition, character, etc. qualitatively. Test scores, in the light of the difficulty of measuring those other qualities, seem to be a school's only recourse in comparing its applicants.

Another thing that pressures schools to focus on those numbers are ranking services for colleges and universities, namely US News. Parents and prospective students have become increasingly aware of the rankings of the schools and schools, consequently, depend on these rankings for applicants. Since the GPAs and test scores of each incoming class figures largely into those rankings, schools are forced to pay at least some attention to those numbers.

I will say however that those numbers are hardly a good measure of one's abilities. I had dismal numbers coming out of high school, but I am dominating at ND and am on my way to a competitive law school. Those numbers are unfortunately the best thing we've got.

Just so I get a better idea of how this process works at ND, how'd you get into ND if you had "dismal" numbers in high school? One of my friends in high school had a 4.0, 1500+ on his SATs and president of his class, and he didn't get in there. I don't mean anything negative by this response, I just wanted to get a better idea of what ND looks for in accepting students through their application process. Thanks!

 

[Jason Pham]

Just so I get a better idea of how this process works at ND, how'd you get into ND if you had "dismal" numbers in high school? One of my friends in high school had a 4.0, 1500+ on his SATs and president of his class, and he didn't get in there. I don't mean anything negative by this response, I just wanted to get a better idea of what ND looks for in accepting students through their application process. Thanks!

I transferred after a few motivated semesters at Holy Cross College.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Just so I get a better idea of how this process works at ND, how'd you get into ND if you had "dismal" numbers in high school? One of my friends in high school had a 4.0, 1500+ on his SATs and president of his class, and he didn't get in there. I don't mean anything negative by this response, I just wanted to get a better idea of what ND looks for in accepting students through their application process. Thanks!

As JPham said, its more of a well rounded individual. The problem universities like ND face is that it has to turn away hundreds of students like your friend with awesome GPA's and outstanding SATs every year. If you are an elite academic institution these students are a the norm. If ND accepted students by shear GPA and SATs there acceptance rate would be 40-50% higher, and you can't have that high of an acceptance rate and be an elite university. You cannot just accept all the 4.0 students with the highest SATs and deny the rest, there is more to it than that. Prospective students can be in a range of GPA and a range of SAT scores. From there, there is a strong focus on extracurriculars (other than HS sports), community involvment, and a strong desire for a Notre Dame degree. That does not even factor in the desire to have a diverse student population, both ethnically and religiously (Contrary to popular belief you do not have ot be catholic to attend ND).
My junior year in high school I got a chance to meet with a guy in the admissions office through a mutual friend. He told me that half the kids that apply to ND write their essay based on how much they love gamedays and the football traditions. While some students will get accepted for other reasons, he tol me the university is looking for prospective students who want to go to Notre Dame for the education not for the football. They want students who don't just want any college degree, but a ND degree and explain why. I went back home and signed up for every club I could at my high school. I already had the grades so from there I probably spent 2-3 weeks drafting the most excellent essay ever written and boom I was in.

 

[DillonHall]

There are so many qualified high school students that apply to ND that many deserving people don't get accepted. There are also many factors that go into the school's decision, and I doubt there's a certain profile that each accepted student fits. For example, I was more well-rounded like Jason said, but my sister got accepted with barely any extracurriculars, probably due to her ridiculous numbers (ACT 35, GPA 4.5).

 

[InKellyITrust]

As JPham said, its more of a well rounded individual. The problem universities like ND face is that it has to turn away hundreds of students like your friend with awesome GPA's and outstanding SATs every year. If you are an elite academic institution these students are a the norm. If ND accepted students by shear GPA and SATs there acceptance rate would be 40-50% higher, and you can't have that high of an acceptance rate and be an elite university. You cannot just accept all the 4.0 students with the highest SATs and deny the rest, there is more to it than that. Prospective students can be in a range of GPA and a range of SAT scores. From there, there is a strong focus on extracurriculars (other than HS sports), community involvment, and a strong desire for a Notre Dame degree. That does not even factor in the desire to have a diverse student population, both ethnically and religiously (Contrary to popular belief you do not have ot be catholic to attend ND).
My junior year in high school I got a chance to meet with a guy in the admissions office through a mutual friend. He told me that half the kids that apply to ND write their essay based on how much they love gamedays and the football traditions. While some students will get accepted for other reasons, he tol me the university is looking for prospective students who want to go to Notre Dame for the education not for the football. They want students who don't just want any college degree, but a ND degree and explain why. I went back home and signed up for every club I could at my high school. I already had the grades so from there I probably spent 2-3 weeks drafting the most excellent essay ever written and boom I was in.

Thanks for your perspective. I'm really happy that it all worked out for you. Obviously, it's an excellent school that has a laundry list of things to offer to its graduates.

 

[dshans]

One of my friends in high school had a 4.0, 1500+ on his SATs and president of his class, and he didn't get in there. I don't mean anything negative by this response, I just wanted to get a better idea of what ND looks for in accepting students through their application process. Thanks!

I can't speak for Jason, but I'll relate a bit of my own (ancient) history. My GPA was was not bad (though not Honor Society quality) and I scored well on the SAT's. The ACT's weren't part of the picture at ND admissions in 1969/1970. Neither were women – a major factor. Competition for acceptance was pretty much halved.

Once I got that coveted letter of acceptance I started to "coast" academically and spent more of my time dealing with being class president, representative on the student council, photographer for the school paper and yearbook, member of Key Club, all county swimmer, 5th man on the golf team and volunteer for this, that and everything else. I also worked more hours at my part time job to enjoy the social benefits that the money of my labor afforded.

I got a painful kick in the ***, though, when ND notified me, after getting my first semester senior year grades, that they were considering rescinding my acceptance if I didn't do a better job on my studies.

I quit my job, the Key Club, the photo gigs (though I still functioned as an unofficial shutterbug), golf team and a bit of this and that to hit the books a bit more.

Fortunately it worked out for the best.

I'm convinced that my extracurricular activities, my willingness to then curtail them to concentrate on studies, and the glowing recommendations from teachers and administrators (in spite of my being a notorious wise-***, hippie agitator) is what made the difference.

I doubt that the outcome would be the same in today's "market."

 

[irishtrain]

I thought this was already widely known, but that's some eye opening stuff with the numbers you provided. ACT and SAT scores are a better judgement of actual intelligence (you don't luck into a 32 ACT score, for example), but we're not looking for the brightest in the world when it comes to football. As a fan, I want kids who are dedicated to the classroom and will work their butts off for a B... while also winning us some games. I'm proud to say that I'm a supporter of one of the few universities these days where it seems that you can have both.

Thank you for expressing what I have been saying again for 2/3 years. These guys need to be football players first because of why they where ask to go to Notre Dame in the first place. Then they need to be good young men who are willing to work for that B. I hope that Notre Dame HAS lightened up on the requirements academically but not socially or the business of creating Notre Dame men. Get 'em in give them the rules and let Notre Dame create the finished man. If they screw up they are gone-they have the chance to have an elite education and life skill process that will keep them in a good place the rest of their lives. These are the guys Kelly means by the right kinda guy. Its why we all love the place and what has endured over the years. You go to Notre Dame and you need to understand you are responsible for the profile of a Notre Dame man. How much $$$$ can you place on the value of being called a Notre Dame man-there is no pricetag big enough. This is why the nation places such importance on football when Notre Dame is winning. Its being done the right way.

 

[irish1958]

While I agree that more attention should be paid to the GPA, habits, and teacher recommendations...Testing is a good method in telling you if the kid is actually learning anything.

Anyone can go to class and skate by with doing a few homework assignments and pull a 3.0....but the testing will tell you if they're actually RETAINING any of that info. That's truly learning something.

But I do agree that more attention should be put on the students overall body of work.

A much better way to tell if the student is learning something is to note his success in 3rd and 4th year classes which depend upon knowledge and understanding of prior subjects. For example, if a senior is taking and excelling in conversational French, advanced composition in English and solid geometry and introductory calculus, I would think he doesn't need much testing to tell he is a good student. And if he had a low SAT score, I would suspect the test is poor, not the student.

 

[IrishLax]

I hate studies like this. This is the kind of study that looks interesting on the surface until you really look at what it's saying. Basically it says "academic success correlates best with academic success" and "test scores correlate with academic success but not as well as academic success correlates with academic success." When you break it down, this is almost as dumb as saying "FT% correlates with 3PT% in the pros but not as well as 3PT% in college correlates to 3PT% in the pros."

The real question people need to be asking is how much GPA correlates to real life success. I've seen lots of people do well who had good GPAs and lots of people do poorly who had good GPAs. Same thing goes for people with bad GPAs. It's really as much about your intangibles as it is about your work ethic and smarts. What I love about ND is how they take very well-rounded people that just aren't smart kids but are also leaders in the making, athletes, or otherwise talented.

 

[ACamp1900]

While I agree that more attention should be paid to the GPA, habits, and teacher recommendations...Testing is a good method in telling you if the kid is actually learning anything.

Anyone can go to class and skate by with doing a few homework assignments and pull a 3.0....but the testing will tell you if they're actually RETAINING any of that info. That's truly learning something.

But I do agree that more attention should be put on the students overall body of work.

A much better way to tell if the student is learning something is to note his success in 3rd and 4th year classes which depend upon knowledge and understanding of prior subjects. For example, if a senior is taking and excelling in conversational French, advanced composition in English and solid geometry and introductory calculus, I would think he doesn't need much testing to tell he is a good student. And if he had a low SAT score, I would suspect the test is poor, not the student.

yes, and no... I do believe most people nin fields other than education are completely ignorant as to how much testing the kids go through... it's way over done... and it's the end all, be all... and no, the modern day test does NOT tell you how much they learn... it tells you if they know how to pass a particular test... and as strange as it sounds there is a difference

my experience tells me that in most classes at least 75% of what the kids learn for each test is long forgotten by time the next test rolls around... because everything is about the next test... 'frustrating' about covers it...

and it's this environment that leads to the burn out I was talking about... I see it in the fifth grade... can only imagine high school kids...

 

[IrishLax]

yes, also... I do believe most people not in education are ignorant as to how much testing the kids go through... it's way over done... it's the end all, be all... and no, the modern day test does NOT tell you how much they learn... it tells you if they know how to pass a particular test...

my experience tells me in most classes 95% of what the kids learn for each test is long forgotten by time the next test rolls around... because everything is about the next test... 'frustrating' about covers it...

Absolutely true. I consider myself a pretty smart kid... never missed a math question on an SAT or SAT II... finished BC Calc with a 5 on the AP as a junior in high school... whatever, I'm pretty good at math and that stuff. I did alright at ND... pulled a 3.8 out of major and did considerably worse in major because of the testing format. Never in my life had I struggled with that kind of stuff but I totally bombed two engineering courses simply because I could not take the tests well in the format they were given. It was too much of a time crunch for me and I couldn't get past it. If I ever made a mistake and went back to fix it I would run out of time... and since the tests were only 3 questions not completing the last question basically meant you were looking at a C if you were lucky and likely a D or F. Most students did not have these problems though, I just had some weird *** mental block against putting down a wrong answer to a question and moving on. Did this mean I worked less than other students? That I was dumber? That I learned less or had a worse grasp of the material? No, I was just completely incompatible with this type of test.

That's why I don't put much stock in GPA OR standardized test scores. GPA is so dependent on your teacher or classes or test format... SAT/ACT are so dependent on how many prep classes you take, etc. I saw kids boost their scores from 1400s to near perfect by taking prep classes. Hell, I went from a 1480 to 1600 myself by getting a book on SAT vocab words and taking two 30 minute classes with an old Jewish SAT savant for $20 a pop. Do you think kids in the hood can afford books or prep classes? Or get the kind of education at their public schools as I did at mine? No way. The system is pretty rigged.

People need to realize grades, scores, metrics and all that other crap tell very little individually about a person. I put the least stock of all in grades when it comes to determining someone's real life potential. All it tells you is that someone was good at whatever particular arbitrary tests their teacher decided to give and has a reasonable level of work ethic. And you can't even guarantee that because of rampant cheating. Maybe the girl with the good GPA was just hotter than the others and had a perv for a teacher.

The sad thing is that we live in a society of rankings and so all of these flawed metrics are an absolute necessity. We are always in constant competition with our neighbors... without metrics to measure ourselves against our contemporaries we have no way to say who should get admitted, who should get hired or simply who is better than who. I've come to accept that life is one giant d*ck measuring contest... but what's most annoying is that none of the rulers work well.

 

[Old Man Mike]

This might be unwelcome since it comes from one of those over-inflated sob's who sat on the wrong side of the desk, but I can give you a little of the prof's perspective.

For every one of the thoughtful professors [and at a non-Harvard-style school like Western Michigan, most of us were] that I was colleague with, we spoke about and believed similarly that the admissions system sucked---though this was expressed in more civilized terms.

The problem though was there was almost no feasible way to do anything about it. It wasn't that essentially everybody was blind to the problems we're talking about in this thread [we all saw them], but what do you do when a thousand applications come onto your desk?? EVERYBODY knew that to give any legitimate evaluation to those applicants, you would have to "get to know them" in some fashion. No tests would accomplish that. But how to get to know them??

The problem is the exact same one which causes so many other injustices in the world---things are too dammed big. If I were running a friendly neighborhood community educational schoolhouse with thirty students and 7 or 8 new applicants a year, I could really find something personal and valuable out about them and probably make really good choices. Can't do it---even at a smaller enrollment place like ND.

Solution?? None really. But a passing wave is given to good faith by asking for the essays or the evidence of classy extracurriculars or the occasional trustworthy recommendation [recommendations are often looked at skeptically by the way]. The bail-out?: test scores.

Most of the time these things are used as minimum "gates" through which an application first passes and numbers are winnowed down, and with somewhat more manageable numbers MAYBE someone will actually read the essays with seriousness. Have any of you guys tried to seriously read even, say fifty student essays?? It'll drive you to retirement if you do it too often.

The whole deal stinks. We profs knew it. Even the boneheads in the administrations know it as far as I could tell. But what really can you do, if you insist upon having schools of 10,000 to 50,000 students??

 

[dshans]

... Solution?? None really. But a passing wave is given to good faith by asking for the essays or the evidence of classy extracurriculars or the occasional trustworthy recommendation [recommendations are often looked at skeptically by the way]. The bail-out?: test scores.

Good points, Curmudgeon-in-Residence. The essay I wrote as part of my ND application was earnest, no doubt, but undoubtedly heavy on obsequious BS. Maybe it was an interview I had with ND alums that tipped the scales.

GPA, SAT scores, extracurriculars, recommendations, essays and interviews weren't enough to get me into Dartmouth, Amherst or Brown, my top choices based on academics. Fortunately something clicked at ND so I was spared the agony of being a Gator Grad the rest of my life.

 

[IrishInColumbus]

I had a 3.2 GPA in high school, it doesn't mean much and isn't indicative of a person's college success at all. I had a math teacher who gave me straight D-'s through high school, and I had her three years. Teachers can ruin you, it happens often.

I was lucky enough to get on the quiz bowl team with all the 4.0'ers and much to their chagrin I put up 135 points. Second place was 47, by a kid who turned down a football offer from Yale to go to Ohio State's honors program in biological engineering.

I had a 24 ACT and a 142 IQ. Doesn't make sense. But in my defense we won the football conference championship the night before and I went out and partied before the 7AM test. Not the brightest move, but I wouldn't have done it any other way. High school was fun.

There is nothing (ACT, GPA, recommendations, extracurricular activities, etc) that can indicate just how success people will be in college and life. You can't measure character from a standardized test.

 

[alaskandomer]

Admissions

Admissions

FWIW, ND is at least as concerned with class rank as GPA. Some schools give bonus GPA points for AP classes while others do not, and some schools are notorious for grade inflation. SAT/ACT scores, while imperfect, are a part of the mix because they are the same everywhere. The quality of the education, and the competition for grades, varies from high school to high school. Also, ND Admissions wants 1, and only 1, letter of recommendation. That letter should be from someone who clearly KNOWS the student, not from someone who just writes the same boilerplate pap for everyone.

 

[Easton Pa ND Fan]

Agree about class rank...

Agree about class rank...

FWIW, ND is at least as concerned with class rank as GPA. Some schools give bonus GPA points for AP classes while others do not, and some schools are notorious for grade inflation. SAT/ACT scores, while imperfect, are a part of the mix because they are the same everywhere. The quality of the education, and the competition for grades, varies from high school to high school. Also, ND Admissions wants 1, and only 1, letter of recommendation. That letter should be from someone who clearly KNOWS the student, not from someone who just writes the same boilerplate pap for everyone.

Since SAT/ACT show such a low correlation to college
graduation, it appears that they are more an indi-
cator of aptitude. They do not measure motivation.

GPA points are inflated - period. Like the liberal
use of Scout's 5 stars for football recruits, the
GPA averages gives a school district bragging rights.

The only constant between schools is class rank. If ND
tries to balance the pro and con of grades between two
serious academic high schools, the only way to judge
an applicant is class rank...Tom

 

[irish1958]

^
If the applicants are equal, then non academic standards apply, which are too numerous and/or too sensitive to list.

 

[irishpat183]

Point is, while no one likes tests...they have their place.

I think using a combo of both GPA and test scores, are just fine.

Think about it. GPA can be just as deciving as standardized test scores. Too much human error (teachers favoring certain students, giving them a "curve") Seriously. I've played with guys that couldn't spell their names, yet always had the grades. Whereas, the SAT/ACT aren't subject to bias and don't care if you're the star running back on the varsity squad.

 

[irish1958]

^
That is true; however it is no secret to college admission staffs that some high schools turn out consistently excellent college students and who go on to become successful people later in life. Class rankings mean little if the high school sucks and the students are allowed to take course which offer no challenge.

 

[IrishinSyria]

The root of the problem here is that results from a standardized test (the SAT) are being compared to results that aren't standardized (college GPAs). Here's an example that illustrates why this is a problem: Students with the highest SAT scores tend to go to the most prestigious colleges. So these colleges have the brightest students. But the GPAs of the students at any one of these colleges will vary. Since the grading standards may be more stringent and the courses challenging, there will naturally be a range of GPAs—not all of these bright students will maintain a 4.0 average. At less prestigious colleges, there will also be a range of grades. But at these colleges, students who received average scores on their SATs may maintain higher GPAs than they would have at more difficult schools.

Of course, I do think that SATs are an imperfect way of measuring aptitude. Everything about them favors white males from middle to upper class backgrounds, because that's who they were originally designed to test (I jump a few logical bridges there, I can go into more detail if anybody would like).

 

[irishtrain]

You guys should have listened to the Paul Finebaum show today. It would have made you laugh and at the same time cringe at the win at all cost phoney baloney business of the SEC. Thank goodness we have these discussions on Notre Dame that are overtoned with ACADEMIC standards because I can assure you that the SEC does not factor this in. I wish a thread could be started on what I heard today. It all started with an Urban Meyer interview where he made his case for the corruption of college football today. As I have said before I think that's why he's no longer coaching. He simply compromised enough and got a belly full of SEC crap. Someone should tell the best conference in college football that the rest of the nation is laughing at them. Pro football plain and simple and no matter how many national championships they pile up everyone from the players to the coaches to the media are protecting their phoney baloney business. It'll be nice to see it end and if Meyer rating on the conference makes it happen SO BE IT.