Shaq vs Toma - r u kidding me!?!?!

[TDHeysus]

So if Toma is out performing Shaq, BK should put him on the 2 deep anyway just to placate him?

BK needs to know that he is at a different spot and these kids do have options,. that being said, no way should he place Shaq at number 2 just to placate him. That is a Pete the Cheat move, revolvoing QB's and RB's on the depth chart to keep everyone happy. Starter one week, third string the next, 2 weeks later they are number 2. BK is right not to go down the PTC road on this one.

Umm... Doesn't Floyd still have one more year of eligibility after this season?? Let's not write him off the NFL yet, I understand that's a strong possibility. But there is plenty of time left for him to make his decision.

no chance he stays, enjoy every play of him this year - he is good as gone (add Rudolph to this list too)

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

This isn't a precedent you want to set. Toma obviously earned the listing on the depth chart, if your going to bow down to kids because they start whining about their spot on the depth chart your basically letting the kids run the show. What happened to kids fighting through adversity and beating the guy ahead of you out, especially since it looks like he was going to have the opportunity to do it on the field. Stars only matter when your being recruited, once you hit campus they are worthless, best players should play. Shaq obviously wasn't one of our best players at WR and decided to go a different direction. Sad to see him go but it's his choice not BK's.

logic. so rare. so right.

 

[DirtySecret]

Toma just garbage..
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ydcFAZsKEdc?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ydcFAZsKEdc?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

 

[eNDzone]

If potential and ability were the benchmarks for success in sports, JaMarcus Russell and Ryan Leaf would have been hall of fame quarterbacks. In sports, as in life, the people with the most god given talent aren't always the people who succeed. Sometimes, a lot of good effort and energy is wasted on people who it shouldn't be wasted on.

Shouldn't Maurice Clarett be in the hall of famer too ?

 

[Riddickulous]

Yea thats makes a lot of sense. Thanks Roby for coming in and abso busting your ass and earning your way. However, according to ESPN you were ranked 199 at your position so unfortunately for you, we will be overlooking your efforts for a guy that was recruited as a four star. I agree, that makes perfect sense.
Lets be sure to tell Rees that his efforts to come in and overtake Montana for the backup role as a true freshman will be overlooked because he is not in the Montana lineage.
As far as I knew, Michael Floyd is a junior and has another year of eligibility and with everything going on with NFL rookie caps, I wouldnt write anyone off. Do me a favor and name me the top 5 WR's at Cinci last year without looking it up? If your honest with yourself than you realize you cant do it. Last I checked we had Floyd, Goodman, TJ, Riddick, Walker, Jackson, and OH YEA that lousy 199th ranked WR that obv works his ass off. Roby Toma may not be as naturally as gifted as Shaq but I'd take a guy with more heart and decent natural ability any day. (RUDY)
Not to mention, if you are a member of ISD you can see the new and updated RKG report for September. You'll notice under players we have a good shot with:
DaVaris Daniels WR
Miles Shuler WR/CB
George Atkinson WR
3 very good WR prospects. I like the fact that BK came out and said after the presser that he didn't try and convince Shaq to stay. Thats not his job. He cares about his players and he did the right thing by granting Shaq his transfer. Thats all he can do, but to say he should've altered the depth chart to better suite Shaq is not the message you want to send to your players.

Mardy Gilyard
Armond Binns
Ben Guidigli
DJ Woods
Isaiah Pead

 

[bert2834]

The problem is these highly rated kids have had almost everything handed to them, then they get some adversity and just leave. This is how Maurice Clarett got in the position he is now in, and there are many more examples of this.

Best player plays. Not most stars by a recruiting service that looks at what 300-500 kids a year? Coaches look at 85. Who would know better 2 years down the road?

 

[DirtySecret]

Mardy Gilyard
Armond Binns
Ben Guidigli
DJ Woods
Isaiah Pead

Cheater, Cheater, pumpkin eater!!

 

[kmoose]

I have seen the 4000 responses on every website out there regarding the Shaq situation. The only ones I care about are those coming from Kelly. Those are the comments that slightly concern me. Don't get me wrong, I am an HUGE kelly supporter, but I think as he even suggested, he is going to continue to learn things are different at ND than other schools. One of those is the fact that you will have some top level star athletes that he never had to deal with at GVS, CMU or UC. Sometimes he may have to do some things to keep these kids engaged that goes against his normal operating procedure.

One of those actions would be to list a Shaq Evans as the number 2 WR on the depth chart to help keep him engaged. Even BK said today that Shaq was coming along and would have been in the mix to play this fall. So, you list him the Number 2 and give both he and toma some PT.

Even BK said we should not pay too much attention to the depth chart, so why not list the guy who likely has the bigger upside even if he is slightly behind. Are any of you telling me that you believe Toma has a bigger upside than Shaq??

What BK is learning with the Shaq situation is that these 4 and 5 star kids are a different breed and they have choices if you do not play them. They will not necessarily sit around and happily ride the pine. When BK was at these other schools, many of those kids were just happy to be on a D-1 ride. At ND the players were likely being courted by every BCS school and know they can still likely play at many of the schools if not happy at ND.

If BK had listed Toma would have been your 3rd stringer, we likely would not be in this situation. Because toma is not going anywhere. Trust me, he is tickled to in South Bend with his buddy Teo.

For those that think I am off my rocker here, I will place a 2 year bet with you. I bet Shaq becomes much more successful at his next school than Toma at ND. I will bet two tickets to the 2013 home opener!!!

By the way, those who were not so concerned about getting two WR in this recruiting cycle better get concerned. 2011 will be NO FLOYD, KAMARA, SHAQ.

No offense, jonesman, your posts are always good and well thought out, even if I don't agree with the conclusions. But I think you are dead wrong, on this one. Everyone on this team has to earn their position on the depth chart. If you're not working hard enough, or not talented enough, then you won't get anything handed to you for free. Making Shaq #2 on the depth chart, when he hasn't earned it, is just another factor that contributes to the prima dona attitude that so many athletes have. From what I have seen; the biggest issue was that Kelly was planning to play Shaq in the slot, while Shaq thought he deserved to be on the outside.

 

[irishfan]

2011 will be NO FLOYD, KAMARA, SHAQ.

So we're losing one starter (maybe), one backup, and one 3rd stringer at receiver. We're screwed.

 

[Irish To The Core]

I understand somebody being upset that a player with elite skills and potential (remember he has 3 years of eligibility remaining) jumping ship. But when you suggest that depth charts should reflect anything but on field performance and ability to get the job done that is ridiculous. Playing little games to placate players with big egos is a sure way to drag a program down.

Whether one subscribes to Kelly's RKG philosophy, I believe he is sincere about it. I can't imagine an RKG needing to have his ego stroked when he comes out second best in a competition (actually 3rd best). The RKG tightens his chin strap and dedicates himself to improving himself so that next time he is number one. The RKG doesn't (2 years running) threaten to leave because things didn't fall in place like he wanted.

Give me a 3 star guy who will work his way onto the team over a 4 star who thinks playing time is owed to him every time.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

So we're losing one starter (maybe), one backup, and one 3rd stringer at receiver. We're screwed.

I know right, just think last year we only our #1 WR... There's no way life goes on now.

But seriously, It's college football. Players are in/out the door all the time. Life goes on.

 

[jonesman]

WOW! I really got all of you wound up and blood pressures off the roof. I do agree with many of your comments. I only have a few points I want folks to remember.

First, BK has never had to deal with the primadona type athlete, but he will find it is much different than your typical player. I feel he is a very talented coach and motivator, so I am sure he will adapt.

Second, you folks point out that he won at UC without the 5* wr. Well, trust me that he saw the need for those elite players when he watched his former team play UF. Kelly or no Kelly and the results would have been likely the same.

Third, for those of you who are still smoking that funny stuff thinking that Floyd will be back next season, put your $$ where your mouth is. I will bet you openers to South FL next season. If he is here, you get to see him. When he is not, you are buying.

As for my bet about Toma and Shaq, still waiting on the first taker.

Finally, I am ready to move on from this subject to something far more important. What BEER am I drinking on Saturday??
GO IRISH!!!!!

 

[NDOM]

WOW! I really got all of you wound up and blood pressures off the roof. I do agree with many of your comments. I only have a few points I want folks to remember.

First, BK has never had to deal with the primadona type athlete, but he will find it is much different than your typical player. I feel he is a very talented coach and motivator, so I am sure he will adapt.

Second, you folks point out that he won at UC without the 5* wr. Well, trust me that he saw the need for those elite players when he watched his former team play UF. Kelly or no Kelly and the results would have been likely the same.

Third, for those of you who are still smoking that funny stuff thinking that Floyd will be back next season, put your $$ where your mouth is. I will bet you openers to South FL next season. If he is here, you get to see him. When he is not, you are buying.

As for my bet about Toma and Shaq, still waiting on the first taker.

Finally, I am ready to move on from this subject to something far more important. What BEER am I drinking on Saturday??
GO IRISH!!!!!

Its okay. We still love ya. GUINNESS beer for me but I prefer the reefer as we all know. So I will be smokin some good SHIT before kickoff. Wooooooo Hooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. GO IRISH!

 

[dshans]

I will be smokin some good SHIT before kickoff. Wooooooo Hooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. GO IRISH!

Pull over,son. I need to see your license, registration and prescription.

 

[johnnykillz]

look at the bet he laid down! anybody going to take it?

Yup. I will. Anyone remember Wes Welker in college? I watched him play. Toma may be the next Wes...

I got that bet Jones "I'll bet the farm on a quttin'-ass chump" Jonesman. Say when... I got no respect for a quitter. Thats what he is. Do not forget that. His mental weakness is prevalent.

Toma punked a 5 *. Big deal. On real FB teams, this happens.

 

[NDinL.A.]

You put a guy who doesn't deserve to be on the depth chart higher than a guy who's proven day in and day out that he's a better player, and forget about ONE player, you start to lose the TEAM. I'd be like, Why work hard if it's going to be a caste system around here?

As much as I hate to see a local kid who I've really been rooting for leave, I'm glad that a no-name recruit from Hawaii who most people thought was a wink-wink package deal with Manti Te'o has earned a spot on the 2-deep. Good for him. (And if there's anyone on the team I DON'T want to piss off, it's Manti.)

Shaq is going to UCLA, and where was Robby Toma destined to go before changing his mind at the last minute? UCLA.

 

[IHateMarkMay]

I still firmly believe that Floyd will stay in 2011. Anybody who was following his recruitment knows why.

 

[fightinirish68]

i read an article where BK said that shaq was best suited for the slot and and that upset shaq and that he felt like he should be an X or Z receiver

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket31
is jonesman serious or is this just sarcasm?

look at the bet he laid down! anybody going to take it?

Here is the problem with taking this bet: Name a player that has transferred to another Division I school and improved his career, other than a few true hardship cases, and any Dick Rod quarterback, and we can have a conversation about a bet.

True Robby Toma lacks all the measurables that we all love, but championship teams are put together with exactly his kind of guy between the "stars". These guys do the hard work and push the limits. They may not be the stars, but they set the tempo and are responsible for the personality of the team. The more the role-players overachieve, the greater the dynasty.

The other amazing thing about this discussion is that there has been no mention of Theo Ridick! The bet I am willing to take and make is that Theo will end up off the charts. He is going to have a sure set of hands, and be able to play in space like almost no other. Developing a talent like his is a coach’s first priority. And you know what; my point is based upon Theo and Shaq being best suited for slot receivers. The staff spent a lot of time trying a lot of receivers out at different positions for the benefit of both the team and those players, and this is what they came up with. Who can challenge BK and his record of player development? Wasn't there a quote about BK developing receivers by breathing on them? What if it is that he sees what he's got, he wants, and he sticks to his guns?

And finally, what if Shaq wasn't going to be happy anywhere? Never known anyone like that. It's the first thing to drag a program’s good morale down.

 

[BGIF]

Here is the problem with taking this bet: Name a player that has transferred to another Division I school and improved his career ...

Dorsey Levens lettered twice but slide backward on the ND TB Depth Chart at ND before transferring.

Zak Kustok was 4th string QB at ND after a Blue & Gold performance. Couldn't beat out Eric Chappell or Arnaz Battle. Went on to star at Northwestern.

Jevan Snead, etc, etc, etc.


Regardless, I don't think that was jonesman's bet, it dealt with Floyd coming back next season:

...for those of you who are still smoking that funny stuff thinking that Floyd will be back next season, put your $$ where your mouth is. I will bet you openers to South FL next season. If he is here, you get to see him. When he is not, you are buying.

 

[GEORGIA DOMER]

HE HAS LAID DOWN 2 BETS!

HE HAS LAID DOWN 2 BETS!

Dorsey Levens lettered twice but slide backward on the ND TB Depth Chart at ND before transferring.

Zak Kustok was 4th string QB at ND after a Blue & Gold performance. Couldn't beat out Eric Chappell or Arnaz Battle. Went on to star at Northwestern.

Jevan Snead, etc, etc, etc.


Regardless, I don't think that was jonesman's bet, it dealt with Floyd coming back next season:

1st post and i think his 2nd on this thread.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

For those that think I am off my rocker here, I will place a 2 year bet with you. I bet Shaq becomes much more successful at his next school than Toma at ND. I will bet two tickets to the 2013 home opener!!!

This is the quote of which I speak.

Also, there was a certain tight end, who didn't like what he got from Res Life, who is doing famously on the west coast right now. But, I can't see where any of those had the quality of career that they would have if they stayed at ND. In fact, in a strange sort of way, thanks for helping me make my point. A fourth stringer at ND could star at Northwestern. Again, I appreciate your point, but even being an al PAC-10 tight end is not as good in my opinion, as getting meaningful playing time this year as a tight end at ND. I don't expect that people haven't bettered themselves, but again, I can't think of anyone other than a couple of Michigan quarterbacks, because of where that program is, that have really done as well. I guess I was trying to take into account the value of an Oregon education, chances of going on after college, versus what it would have taken to succeed where they were. Thanks for your input.

 

[BGIF]

1st post and i think his 2nd on this thread.

Okay. I've only read the Floyd bet.

 

[RDU Irish]

Relating to the bet, Toma will have three years of production versus two for Shaq. Sitting out a year for the transfer will be a pretty good handicap IMO. You should probably clarify the basis for comparison. I think you both simply mean total yards from scrimmage rather than some fantasy football equation of receptions, yards, TDs....

Riddick would be a no brainer but I think Toma vs. Shaq is an interesting comparison for the next three years.

 

[BGIF]

This is the quote of which I speak.

Also, there was a certain tight end, who didn't like what he got from Res Life, who is doing famously on the west coast right now. But, I can't see where any of those had the quality of career that they would have if they stayed at ND. In fact, in a strange sort of way, thanks for helping me make my point. A fourth stringer at ND could star at Northwestern. Again, I appreciate your point, but even being an al PAC-10 tight end is not as good in my opinion, as getting meaningful playing time this year as a tight end at ND. I don't expect that people haven't bettered themselves, but again, I can't think of anyone other than a couple of Michigan quarterbacks, because of where that program is, that have really done as well. I guess I was trying to take into account the value of an Oregon education, chances of going on after college, versus what it would have taken to succeed where they were. Thanks for your input.

Hadn't seen that one. Too many Shaq threads ongoing.

The fourth stringer at ND actually went into the Blue and Gold Game as the 1B QB and the South Bend Tribune pointed out that morning that he was a better fit for the offense and they expected him to make a move. He did, by the end of the day he had dropped to #4 with a terrible showing. He was unhappy with his demotion and he left in a huff. He got some maturity sitting out a year and a better head coach and offensive coordinator and he prospered.

Fauria may prosper also having sat out a year. He's tabbed as the Bruins starter but hasn't caught a ball in a game there yet, has he? He would have played last year at ND with the injuries but like Reuland who's starting at Stanford, he wasn't going to be the starter at ND. Although Phil Steele ranks Reuland as his #1 TE and Rudolph #2 TE.

 

[WaveDomer]

Anyone here have kids? You know what happens when you placate them or let them off the hook? They turn around and keep doing the same stuff or want even more. Doesn't make them bad, just human nature. Then the other kids, if you have them, know that one got over and get pissed. It's a bad deal all around.

 

[RDU Irish]

I think WaveDomer is eluding to a deeper issue that I have a hard time dispelling based on the facts and comments presented to date. Where there is smoke, there is fire. This whole issue pushes me (even) further into the BK fan club. Team first, always.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

I think Troy Aikman is probably the best-case transfer scenario.

And Eric Olsen didn't end up too badly.

But back to Shaq and "measurables" -- IMO speed and quickness may be the most overrated characteristic of WR's. Route-running, catching, reading holes, etc. are all equally important. And you can't give up on a route during a crucial 3rd down at Michigan.

Think about it: Reggie Wayne and Toma probably have about the same speed.

 

[BGIF]

... And Eric Olsen didn't end up too badly. ...

Eric Olsen also wasn't a transfer. Spent all his years as an ND OL.

Were you thinking of the TE Greg Olsen who transferred to Miami? He left ND before classes started his freshman year. He didn't leave because of lack of PT for himself he left because his brother, Chris, a sophomore QB opted out because Diedrick had him as #2 QB behind incumbent starter Carlyle Holiday. The other ND QBs were Dillingham and a freshman named Quinn. Olsen faded away at UVA while Quinn made the most of his departure.

 

[BGIF]

BlueandGold.com // Motivational Means

“Motivation is simple. You eliminate those that aren’t motivated.”
— Lou Holtz

Good article on Motivation and coaching styles by Lou Somoygi, Blue & Gold