Everything Soccer

Dale

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Hockey happened to figure it out without huge numbers, but soccer hasn’t.

and the US NTDP as well as distance from Canadian Juniors is way better run than anything in the US for soccer.

I mean think of how concentrated the US Hockey team is. 2 families heavily focused on training for hockey at a young age and make up 4 of our best players. It’s not because Brady and Quinn are some superior athletes we needed to pluck from basketball. They from their youths had the best in class training.
 

FWIrish4

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Bro we have millions more youth soccer players than Belgium lol. Numbers are just simply not the issue. We need to do something better with the mass amount we already have.
Okay and again, are our best athletes part of those numbers? No, they are not. I’m not saying it’s the end all be all, but it certainly would help.

I also agreed with you that development matters and mentioned hockey figured it out in my OP.

I’m also not going to argue here all afternoon when you can’t even acknowledge what I’m saying.

1783445935204.gif
 

TorontoGold

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- Youth coaching costs too much
- Youth coaching is not good enough
- Americans are less likely to be willing to relocate for sports.

Odell Beckham for example said he was given US Youth and European academy looks but did not want to move.

So you can make it cheaper, sure. But the coaches aren’t gonna be good. Can you just make the better? Probably need European influence. I bet that will cost more then. Well then just move? Americans are generally unwilling to move across the ocean for anything, much less soccer. Compare that to a Spanish person moving to England, Moroccan moving to Paris or even idk a Dutch person moving to Germany. That’s just a kid from Ohio moving to Florida at that point.

Even look at University of Texas, they are training half of the Olympians worldwide in swimming. Idk just a cultural thing with Americans and willingness to relocate at all costs at a young age.

Are European clubs investing in American youth? Or they just DGAF? Because those coaches I’m sure could make a hell of a lot more here.

Americans are willing to relocate for hockey, the footprint is quite large in the minor hockey levels up here (dumbass Canadian parents are trying to limit the “foreign” players because it takes spots away).

Biggest issue IMO is that Americans don’t have a serious partner to the north or south to setup academies or have strong coaching from other national programs. England can leverage France etc, the US essentially gets a tote bag from Canada.
 

Dale

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Americans are willing to relocate for hockey, the footprint is quite large in the minor hockey levels up here (dumbass Canadian parents are trying to limit the “foreign” players because it takes spots away).

Biggest issue IMO is that Americans don’t have a serious partner to the north or south to setup academies or have strong coaching from other national programs. England can leverage France etc, the US essentially gets a tote bag from Canada.

The plan: let France takeover Canada > US World Cup
 

NorthDakota

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Americans are willing to relocate for hockey, the footprint is quite large in the minor hockey levels up here (dumbass Canadian parents are trying to limit the “foreign” players because it takes spots away).

Biggest issue IMO is that Americans don’t have a serious partner to the north or south to setup academies or have strong coaching from other national programs. England can leverage France etc, the US essentially gets a tote bag from Canada.

Tons of relocation in hockey. I don't understand a lot of it but my understanding is if you arent in pretty specific areas... it's all but required
 

FU BK

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Is it hockey season yet? Took my daughter to the new Fort Wayne football clubs stadium Saturday. At least it was marginally better than watching middle school soccer between dozing off.
 

TorontoGold

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The plan: let France takeover Canada > US World Cup

I would be down for that, it would make Quebecors and Albertans so triggered. Having a proper soccer development scene would be neat.

I knew our system was poverty when rotation players on my team were over the moon to go to the States for soccer. Our universities have try outs and they scouted the intramural teams sometimes. I was the leading scorer one season and told to try out lmao but I had the fitness of post 4 hour podcast Driskell.

Tons of relocation in hockey. I don't understand a lot of it but my understanding is if you arent in pretty specific areas... it's all but required

Yep. You need to be in the GTA to do anything.
 

Jiggafini19Deux

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Great comeback, but I really don't like Argentina
Cosigned. They need to go away at this point. They've survived Cape Verde and Egypt in the knockout round. I hope they run out of lives.

Messi is the best sportsman I've seen in my life. Any player, any sport.
 

TNUtoNotreDame

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I like Messi a ton, but man they have holes. But I assume they will be in the final again. Columbia is good and the Swiss are cheese.
 

thekid33

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Power ranking the remaining teams/countries from my rooting standpoint.

1) Norway - Norwegians seem impossible to hate.
2) Belgium - Would be cool to lose to the winner. Good beer.
3) England - Undeniable cultural ties. Can't be top 2 because of Revolution and Potato Famine
4) Spain - Good food
5) France - Helped us during the Revolution
6) Morocco - No real opinion
7) Winner of Columbia/Switzerland - Former/Current Narco State vs. Bankers for the Nazis
8) Argentina - Unlikeable other than Messi. Haven for actual Nazis.
 

Jiggafini19Deux

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I don't care if they were playing the Monstars, that was a choke job. Kept them scoreless for 80 minutes and then drop 1 goal every 4 minutes?
The number one ranked team in the world, the defending champions of the competition, with the greatest player to have ever played the sport.

There was zero chance they were keeping a clean sheet. The quality teams and star players have risen to the moment every time so far. England vs Congo and Mexico, Argentina vs Cape Verde and Egypt.

Call it whatever you want. This sport rarely gives you 1983 Jimmy Valvano moments. The Death Star wins.
 

Irishdawg

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Power ranking the remaining teams/countries from my rooting standpoint.

1) Norway - Norwegians seem impossible to hate.
2) Belgium - Would be cool to lose to the winner. Good beer.
3) England - Undeniable cultural ties. Can't be top 2 because of Revolution and Potato Famine
4) Spain - Good food
5) France - Helped us during the Revolution
6) Morocco - No real opinion
7) Winner of Columbia/Switzerland - Former/Current Narco State vs. Bankers for the Nazis
8) Argentina - Unlikeable other than Messi. Haven for actual Nazis.
Viva La France, got them in our work draw. I win a free lunch if they win!! Always back to food😉
 

Wild Bill

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American soccer doesn't lack size or athletes, it lacks skill. I don't think the pay to play model is great, but I'm not convinced it's entirely reponsible for the lack of skill development. The same pay to play exists in baseball and hockey too, yet we consistently produce world class talent in both sports.

IMO, the bigger issue is the coaching base and the knowledge gap among parents.

I can drive to my small town's local baseball field and find half a dozen volunteer coaches who played college baseball, or at least high school at a high level. The same is true in football. Soccer isn't like that. My son played for a local travel program for a couple of years, and I think we had one coach in the entire organization who had played college soccer. Most of the coaches hadn't even played in high school. I'm sure that's different at elite clubs, but at the community level there simply isn't the same level of experience.

I coached my son's team almost by default because there was only one other parent who had played competitive soccer at any level. Most of the parents had virtually no understanding of the game, and I don't think that's unusual, even on a lot of high level travel teams..

Huge problem with the parents bc technical skills that separate elite players are developed almost entirely outside organized practice.

I can use baseball better to illustrate my point - if you see an 7 or 8 year old kid consistently barreling baseballs all over the field, that swing wasn't built during his team's two hours of practice each week. It was built b/c a parent knew what they were doing and spent countless hours throwing to him, working with him and getting the kid thousands of swings. Even the best youth coach, on a high level travel team, simply doesn't have enough time to provide every kid with that kind of individualized instruction and repetition.

Soccer is exactly the same. The difference is that instead of building a swing, you're building touch. A youth coach simply doesn't have enough time to give every player the tens of thousands of quality touches needed to develop elite ball control, first touch, balance, and creativity. That work has to happen at home, but we simply don't have enough parents who understand the game well enough to know how those skills are actually developed.

I saw the difference firsthand growing up. My parents were immigrants, and I played with a bunch of foul-mouthed eastern euro immigrant kids. The answer to just about every soccer problem was the same - Go juggle dammit.

We dominated kids who were bigger, faster and stronger b/c we could control the ball.

On top of that, American kids have endless entertainment options. It's not exactly common to see kids spending hours every day workign on any skill much less juggling a soccer ball. Culturally, we prefer activities that provide instant gratification, and improving your touch is about the opposite of that. It's repetitive, frustrating, and boring as hell.

Compare that to baseball. Squaring up a baseball feels good immediately. You see the ball jump off the bat and get instant feedback that you're improving. I'm not suggesting hitting a baseball is easy - it takes thousands of reps - but the process itself is simply more rewarding for most kids and parents.

Football requires even less technical development early on. A kid who's bigger, faster, and stronger than everyone else can dominate from Pop Warner through high school without spending much time developing technical skills. Soccer doesn't work that way - you have to be incredibly skilled with your feet to be a world class player.

Just one asshole's opinion.
 

MPClinton22

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Power ranking the remaining teams/countries from my rooting standpoint.

1) Norway - Norwegians seem impossible to hate.
2) Belgium - Would be cool to lose to the winner. Good beer.
3) England - Undeniable cultural ties. Can't be top 2 because of Revolution and Potato Famine
4) Spain - Good food
5) France - Helped us during the Revolution
6) Morocco - No real opinion
7) Winner of Columbia/Switzerland - Former/Current Narco State vs. Bankers for the Nazis
8) Argentina - Unlikeable other than Messi. Haven for actual Nazis.
Flip France and England in this and I'm with ya. Mainly because I just love watching France play, it's a joy
 

InKellyWeTrust

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I live in the Cincinnati burbs. FC Cincinnati has an initiative over the last few years to build "mini-pitches" all over the greater Cincinnati area. One just went in earlier this year a few minutes from our house. My 2 sons use the mini-pitch on a regular basis. They dm their friends to meet up there and have some pick up 4v4 or 3v3 games. We need organic development like this to see soccer really gain a foothold. We need kids getting out and playing pick up ball. This is the way.
 

OrlaNDomer

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Power ranking the remaining teams/countries from my rooting standpoint.

1) Norway - Norwegians seem impossible to hate.
2) Belgium - Would be cool to lose to the winner. Good beer.
3) England - Undeniable cultural ties. Can't be top 2 because of Revolution and Potato Famine
4) Spain - Good food
5) France - Helped us during the Revolution
6) Morocco - No real opinion
7) Winner of Columbia/Switzerland - Former/Current Narco State vs. Bankers for the Nazis
8) Argentina - Unlikeable other than Messi. Haven for actual Nazis.

Agree on everything but Messi being likeable. I used to like him, but man watching him get every call every game not just in the WC but at Miami the last few years is just old and boring. Maybe not his fault, but it's made me resent him.
 

IrishLax

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To Dale's point - if you look at the makeup of the current US squad, almost all of the best players spent all or some of their youth years in Europe. Weah, Balogun, Haji Wright, Public, Tillman, McKennie, Reyna, Robinson, Dest.

To me that makes it pretty clear it's a US development problem
A lot of these countries are also just buying foreigners to play for them.
American soccer doesn't lack size or athletes, it lacks skill. I don't think the pay to play model is great, but I'm not convinced it's entirely reponsible for the lack of skill development. The same pay to play exists in baseball and hockey too, yet we consistently produce world class talent in both sports.

IMO, the bigger issue is the coaching base and the knowledge gap among parents.

I can drive to my small town's local baseball field and find half a dozen volunteer coaches who played college baseball, or at least high school at a high level. The same is true in football. Soccer isn't like that. My son played for a local travel program for a couple of years, and I think we had one coach in the entire organization who had played college soccer. Most of the coaches hadn't even played in high school. I'm sure that's different at elite clubs, but at the community level there simply isn't the same level of experience.

I coached my son's team almost by default because there was only one other parent who had played competitive soccer at any level. Most of the parents had virtually no understanding of the game, and I don't think that's unusual, even on a lot of high level travel teams..

Huge problem with the parents bc technical skills that separate elite players are developed almost entirely outside organized practice.

I can use baseball better to illustrate my point - if you see an 7 or 8 year old kid consistently barreling baseballs all over the field, that swing wasn't built during his team's two hours of practice each week. It was built b/c a parent knew what they were doing and spent countless hours throwing to him, working with him and getting the kid thousands of swings. Even the best youth coach, on a high level travel team, simply doesn't have enough time to provide every kid with that kind of individualized instruction and repetition.

Soccer is exactly the same. The difference is that instead of building a swing, you're building touch. A youth coach simply doesn't have enough time to give every player the tens of thousands of quality touches needed to develop elite ball control, first touch, balance, and creativity. That work has to happen at home, but we simply don't have enough parents who understand the game well enough to know how those skills are actually developed.

I saw the difference firsthand growing up. My parents were immigrants, and I played with a bunch of foul-mouthed eastern euro immigrant kids. The answer to just about every soccer problem was the same - Go juggle dammit.

We dominated kids who were bigger, faster and stronger b/c we could control the ball.

On top of that, American kids have endless entertainment options. It's not exactly common to see kids spending hours every day workign on any skill much less juggling a soccer ball. Culturally, we prefer activities that provide instant gratification, and improving your touch is about the opposite of that. It's repetitive, frustrating, and boring as hell.

Compare that to baseball. Squaring up a baseball feels good immediately. You see the ball jump off the bat and get instant feedback that you're improving. I'm not suggesting hitting a baseball is easy - it takes thousands of reps - but the process itself is simply more rewarding for most kids and parents.

Football requires even less technical development early on. A kid who's bigger, faster, and stronger than everyone else can dominate from Pop Warner through high school without spending much time developing technical skills. Soccer doesn't work that way - you have to be incredibly skilled with your feet to be a world class player.

Just one asshole's opinion.
^everyone should read this post

Also, if you read The Talent Code or look at recent research on CLA the bottom line is that so much of skill acquisition basically comes from free play and modeling. At peak Brazil dominance it was because their kids were growing up dirt poor playing futsal while European "academies" had no idea what they were doing. Then they adopted what the kids in the slums were doing and repackaged it domestically.
 

dublinirish

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A lot of these countries are also just buying foreigners to play for them.

^everyone should read this post

Also, if you read The Talent Code or look at recent research on CLA the bottom line is that so much of skill acquisition basically comes from free play and modeling. At peak Brazil dominance it was because their kids were growing up dirt poor playing futsal while European "academies" had no idea what they were doing. Then they adopted what the kids in the slums were doing and repackaged it domestically.
yeah they argument for why Brasil are so poor now is that their promising players are getting plucked too young by European academies so they end up with a European football mind and skillset which is alien to their historical game. Also the spread of Evangelism is blamed but you can go on Twitter to read all that lol
 

Dale

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American soccer doesn't lack size or athletes, it lacks skill. I don't think the pay to play model is great, but I'm not convinced it's entirely reponsible for the lack of skill development. The same pay to play exists in baseball and hockey too, yet we consistently produce world class talent in both sports.

IMO, the bigger issue is the coaching base and the knowledge gap among parents.

I can drive to my small town's local baseball field and find half a dozen volunteer coaches who played college baseball, or at least high school at a high level. The same is true in football. Soccer isn't like that. My son played for a local travel program for a couple of years, and I think we had one coach in the entire organization who had played college soccer. Most of the coaches hadn't even played in high school. I'm sure that's different at elite clubs, but at the community level there simply isn't the same level of experience.

I coached my son's team almost by default because there was only one other parent who had played competitive soccer at any level. Most of the parents had virtually no understanding of the game, and I don't think that's unusual, even on a lot of high level travel teams..

Huge problem with the parents bc technical skills that separate elite players are developed almost entirely outside organized practice.

I can use baseball better to illustrate my point - if you see an 7 or 8 year old kid consistently barreling baseballs all over the field, that swing wasn't built during his team's two hours of practice each week. It was built b/c a parent knew what they were doing and spent countless hours throwing to him, working with him and getting the kid thousands of swings. Even the best youth coach, on a high level travel team, simply doesn't have enough time to provide every kid with that kind of individualized instruction and repetition.

Soccer is exactly the same. The difference is that instead of building a swing, you're building touch. A youth coach simply doesn't have enough time to give every player the tens of thousands of quality touches needed to develop elite ball control, first touch, balance, and creativity. That work has to happen at home, but we simply don't have enough parents who understand the game well enough to know how those skills are actually developed.

I saw the difference firsthand growing up. My parents were immigrants, and I played with a bunch of foul-mouthed eastern euro immigrant kids. The answer to just about every soccer problem was the same - Go juggle dammit.

We dominated kids who were bigger, faster and stronger b/c we could control the ball.

On top of that, American kids have endless entertainment options. It's not exactly common to see kids spending hours every day workign on any skill much less juggling a soccer ball. Culturally, we prefer activities that provide instant gratification, and improving your touch is about the opposite of that. It's repetitive, frustrating, and boring as hell.

Compare that to baseball. Squaring up a baseball feels good immediately. You see the ball jump off the bat and get instant feedback that you're improving. I'm not suggesting hitting a baseball is easy - it takes thousands of reps - but the process itself is simply more rewarding for most kids and parents.

Football requires even less technical development early on. A kid who's bigger, faster, and stronger than everyone else can dominate from Pop Warner through high school without spending much time developing technical skills. Soccer doesn't work that way - you have to be incredibly skilled with your feet to be a world class player.

Just one asshole's opinion.

 

BleedBlueGold

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American soccer doesn't lack size or athletes, it lacks skill. I don't think the pay to play model is great, but I'm not convinced it's entirely reponsible for the lack of skill development. The same pay to play exists in baseball and hockey too, yet we consistently produce world class talent in both sports.

IMO, the bigger issue is the coaching base and the knowledge gap among parents.

I can drive to my small town's local baseball field and find half a dozen volunteer coaches who played college baseball, or at least high school at a high level. The same is true in football. Soccer isn't like that. My son played for a local travel program for a couple of years, and I think we had one coach in the entire organization who had played college soccer. Most of the coaches hadn't even played in high school. I'm sure that's different at elite clubs, but at the community level there simply isn't the same level of experience.

I coached my son's team almost by default because there was only one other parent who had played competitive soccer at any level. Most of the parents had virtually no understanding of the game, and I don't think that's unusual, even on a lot of high level travel teams..

Huge problem with the parents bc technical skills that separate elite players are developed almost entirely outside organized practice.

I can use baseball better to illustrate my point - if you see an 7 or 8 year old kid consistently barreling baseballs all over the field, that swing wasn't built during his team's two hours of practice each week. It was built b/c a parent knew what they were doing and spent countless hours throwing to him, working with him and getting the kid thousands of swings. Even the best youth coach, on a high level travel team, simply doesn't have enough time to provide every kid with that kind of individualized instruction and repetition.

Soccer is exactly the same. The difference is that instead of building a swing, you're building touch. A youth coach simply doesn't have enough time to give every player the tens of thousands of quality touches needed to develop elite ball control, first touch, balance, and creativity. That work has to happen at home, but we simply don't have enough parents who understand the game well enough to know how those skills are actually developed.

I saw the difference firsthand growing up. My parents were immigrants, and I played with a bunch of foul-mouthed eastern euro immigrant kids. The answer to just about every soccer problem was the same - Go juggle dammit.

We dominated kids who were bigger, faster and stronger b/c we could control the ball.

On top of that, American kids have endless entertainment options. It's not exactly common to see kids spending hours every day workign on any skill much less juggling a soccer ball. Culturally, we prefer activities that provide instant gratification, and improving your touch is about the opposite of that. It's repetitive, frustrating, and boring as hell.

Compare that to baseball. Squaring up a baseball feels good immediately. You see the ball jump off the bat and get instant feedback that you're improving. I'm not suggesting hitting a baseball is easy - it takes thousands of reps - but the process itself is simply more rewarding for most kids and parents.

Football requires even less technical development early on. A kid who's bigger, faster, and stronger than everyone else can dominate from Pop Warner through high school without spending much time developing technical skills. Soccer doesn't work that way - you have to be incredibly skilled with your feet to be a world class player.

Just one asshole's opinion.
Preach.

Had the instant gratification chat with my kids and nephews this weekend while fishing. Told them to put down the devices and pickup a fishing pole and work on their patience and persistence.

Lastly, someone correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Cavan Sullivan (or perhaps another young phenom) leave America at a young age to do academy soccer in EU because of better coaching on top of playing up in age, etc? Maybe I'm not recalling properly, but just trying to piggyback on Bill's point regarding coaching gap and knowledge base here in the US.
 
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