‘21 AL QB Riley Leonard (Duke Transfer - Notre Dame Verbal)

[irishandy]

In 2021 Hartman had 4,228 yards passing with 39 TD's and a rating of 148.6.
In 2022 Hartman had 3,701 yards passing with 38 TD's and a rating of 159.4.
In 2023 Hartman had 2,689 yards passing with 24 TD's and a rating of 159.5.

Put Sam Hartman in the same situation as Riley Leonard for this season and you see Hartman with over 3,000 yards passing and 32-35 TD's- he'd have better WR's and a huge upgrade at OC. The only thing he misses from last season is Estime and Alt.

I'll always be a Hartman fan, we can thank him for landing Leonard to ND, and for making the QB room healthy.

Leonard is in a great situation.

 

[arrowryan]

In 2021 Hartman had 4,228 yards passing with 39 TD's and a rating of 148.6.
In 2022 Hartman had 3,701 yards passing with 38 TD's and a rating of 159.4.
In 2023 Hartman had 2,689 yards passing with 24 TD's and a rating of 159.5.

Put Sam Hartman in the same situation as Riley Leonard for this season and you see Hartman with over 3,000 yards passing and 32-35 TD's- he'd have better WR's and a huge upgrade at OC. The only thing he misses from last season is Estime and Alt.

I'll always be a Hartman fan, we can thank him for landing Leonard to ND, and for making the QB room healthy.

Leonard is in a great situation.

The coaching staff basically failed Hartman. I felt bad for him.

 

[irishandy]

The coaching staff basically failed Hartman. I felt bad for him.

I agree, Parker was a horrible OC.

 

[Bluto]

I agree, Parker was a horrible OC.

The wide receiver room and interior o line last year hamstrung both Parker (not saying he was great) and Hartman.

I can’t think of any OC or QB that would have lit the world on fire given both those limitations.

 

[INLaw]

Wonder how much better iol would have been if Craig had been center all season instead

 

[jprue24]

Just going to pretend Hartman didn't run a gimmick offense at Wake Forest are we?

 

[PutuporShutup]

Just going to pretend Hartman didn't run a gimmick offense at Wake Forest are we?

Stats are stats man… we could have ran the same offense. No rule against it

 

[jprue24]

we could have ran the same offense. No rule against it

Sure, if they somehow hired a coach that could have installed it, they could have ran it. But Hartman came to ND specifically to not run it, so how about you bullshit better.

 

[irishandy]

Stats are stats man… we could have ran the same offense. No rule against it

Sure, if they somehow hired a coach that could have installed it, they could have ran it. But Hartman came to ND specifically to not run it, so how about you bullshit better.

Putup is right here Jprue24- stats are stats and Hartman had some damn good stats at WF. He was the best QB in the transfer portal after the 2022 season. Put him in Leonard's situation this season- better WR's, definitely better coaching, and we are getting better results.

 

[PutuporShutup]

Sure, if they somehow hired a coach that could have installed it, they could have ran it. But Hartman came to ND specifically to not run it, so how about you bullshit better.

So first the issue was Hartman because he ran a gimmick offense he wasn’t good, now it’s shifted from the gimmick offense to our OC last year.

The facts show that Hartman is a good college qb in different offenses. We just had a crappy OC and terrible wrs last year that were the main reason preventing us from having a good season.

 

[irishandy]

We just had a crappy OC and terrible wrs last year that were the main reason preventing us from having a good season.

Enough said right here about Hartman from last season. Hartman had a horrible game vs Louisville, we should've kept running the ball vs Clemson. Does ND win vs Duke if Hartman doesn't convert on 4th & 16 with his legs?

I am still glad that Hartman came to ND for his last season of college football.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Leonard must have one critical attribute this season: pocket awareness

With new OTs, it's critical he's reading the defense and keeping his periphery neurons active.

Hartman was an interesting QB to have for a year. It seems like he could've won the Ohio State game 2-3 times if he'd been able to execute the called play. Other times, he was certainly hamstrung by our injured/depleted/empty WR room (nothing agains the guys who were able to play and who weren't. it wasn't ideal).

 

[NDPhilly]

Ian Book was a lot better than Hartman

Disagree strongly, Ian was more clutch, but Sam was a better player with a worse supporting cast.

 

[jprue24]

Putup is right here Jprue24- stats are stats and Hartman had some damn good stats at WF. He was the best QB in the transfer portal after the 2022 season. Put him in Leonard's situation this season- better WR's, definitely better coaching, and we are getting better results.

I am not a "stats are stats" guy because there are 20 other players on the field, ever changing rules, referees, and coaches deciding how players are used matters as well. All of which affect stats.

Nobody who watched both believes Keenan Reynolds was a better QB than Tommie Frazier was even though his stats blow Frazier out of the water.

So first the issue was Hartman because he ran a gimmick offense he wasn’t good, now it’s shifted from the gimmick offense to our OC last year.

The facts show that Hartman is a good college qb in different offenses. We just had a crappy OC and terrible wrs last year that were the main reason preventing us from having a good season.

Where did I say he wasn't good? Comments were comparing his Wake and ND numbers and laying them at the ND coaching staff's feet, while pretending like everything is equal between the situations.

Then you provide "ND could have ran it too", when that is pointed out, which is a lazy answer that again ignores the context that ND was never going to be able to run that offense last year and Hartman specifically didn't want to run that offense again.

So "ND could have ran it too" is just a bullshit answer and I was responding to that. Do not* extrapolate my comment to build an argument that I'm not making.

 

[stlnd01]

Disagree strongly, Ian was more clutch, but Sam was a better player with a worse supporting cast.

I generally agree but the fact that Book vs. Sam is even a debate highlights the original point, which is that, while Sam was a good QB and did a lot of good things for us, he was not substantially better than the QBs who preceded him. (Except for Pyne. Pyne sucked. Sam's substantially better than Pyne.) To have the kind of season we all hope to have, and especially to win playoff games, we will need a substantially better performance at QB than we've gotten really since Clausen was playing.

Hopefully Leonard can be that guy. The fact that he's being projected as a first round pick suggests at least some people think he will be that guy. We'll see.

 

[jprue24]

Putup is right here Jprue24- stats are stats and Hartman had some damn good stats at WF. He was the best QB in the transfer portal after the 2022 season. Put him in Leonard's situation this season- better WR's, definitely better coaching, and we are getting better results.

Enough said right here about Hartman from last season. Hartman had a horrible game vs Louisville, we should've kept running the ball vs Clemson. Does ND win vs Duke if Hartman doesn't convert on 4th & 16 with his legs?

I am still glad that Hartman came to ND for his last season of college football.

Stats are stats?

Hartman against Duke...

C/ATT	YDS	AVG	TD	INT		QBR
15/30	222	7.4	0	0		62.0

CAR	YDS	AVG	TD	LONG
6	23	3.8	0	17

Notre Dame 21-14 Duke (Sep 30, 2023) Box Score - ESPN

Box score for the Notre Dame Fighting Irish vs. Duke Blue Devils NCAAF game from September 30, 2023 on ESPN. Includes all passing, rushing and receiving stats.

www.espn.com

He led a game winning drive, in the moment, that always wipes a shitty performance away for me. After I'm outside of my happy vibes from a win, I go back and see a poor performance in the stat book. I go rewatch a game where Hartman didn't play well. He showed some mental toughness and perseverance in a come from behind win.

So was Duke a game worth remembering Hartman fondly or do I should I use stats to judge Hartman's performance?

 

[NumbersGuy0520]

Stats are stats?

Hartman against Duke...

C/ATT	YDS	AVG	TD	INT		QBR
15/30	222	7.4	0	0		62.0

CAR	YDS	AVG	TD	LONG
6	23	3.8	0	17

Notre Dame 21-14 Duke (Sep 30, 2023) Box Score - ESPN

Box score for the Notre Dame Fighting Irish vs. Duke Blue Devils NCAAF game from September 30, 2023 on ESPN. Includes all passing, rushing and receiving stats.

www.espn.com

He led a game winning drive, in the moment, that always wipes a shitty performance away for me. After I'm outside of my happy vibes from a win, I go back and see a poor performance in the stat book. I go rewatch a game where Hartman didn't play well. He showed some mental toughness and perseverance in a come from behind win.

So was Duke a game worth remembering Hartman fondly or do I should I use stats to judge Hartman's performance?

Yeah, this is fair. Things often extend past the box score.

No Jayden Thomas, no Greathouse, no Deion Colzie in the Duke game - all due to injuries. Rico Flores was our WR1 and had two catches. So did Chris Tyree. No other WRs caught passes. Mitchell Evans had to have a 6 catch, 134 yard Herculean effort to keep us afloat.

Given the above, I’m not sure how anyone can critique Sam’s Duke game and say he had a poor performance/shitty effort/didn’t play well, but I’m sure box score warriors would.

That being said, I think Sam did a lot with a little at Wake, and his high-quality statlines there are not being confounded with many other variables (incredible coaching, incredible WR play, etc etc). Again, one needs to add in the context and not just read the box scores, but I think Sam truly looked great those seasons + should’ve for us too (was limited by our OC + WR play).

 

[allenm5333]

Yeah, this is fair. Things often extend past the box score.

No Jayden Thomas, no Greathouse, no Deion Colzie in the Duke game - all due to injuries. Rico Flores was our WR1 and had two catches. So did Chris Tyree. No other WRs caught passes. Mitchell Evans had to have a 6 catch, 134 yard Herculean effort to keep us afloat.

Given the above, I’m not sure how anyone can critique Sam’s Duke game and say he had a poor performance/shitty effort/didn’t play well, but I’m sure box score warriors would.

That being said, I think Sam did a lot with a little at Wake, and his high-quality statlines there are not being confounded with many other variables (incredible coaching, incredible WR play, etc etc). Again, one needs to add in the context and not just read the box scores, but I think Sam truly looked great those seasons + should’ve for us too (was limited by our OC + WR play).

He had better WRs at Wake than at ND. Sad but true. Wouldn't be the case this year. Sam was a good QB (a JAG+ as Cover 3 says) but not good enough to elevate the status of others

 

[NDisme]

I like Hartman, to be clear, and I understand about the WR room, but in what sense was he meaningfully better than Coan, Book, 2015 Kizer, Golson with his head on straight…

Honestly felt bad for both Coan and Hartman. Really glad both came here but we failed them both in a lot of ways.

 

[GrangerIrish24]

Sam Hartman was sooooooo 2023. This is year of Leonard. If you would like to argue about unchangeable things from the past, may I direct you to the covid thread

 

[NDisme]

Happy to have Riley, O line still scares me

 

[INLaw]

Happy to have Riley, O line still scares me

Got a lot of highly ranked players there that now aren’t thought very highly of. No idea what happened

 

[Blazers46]

Happy to have Riley, O line still scares me

Is the OLine concern related to anything outside of how they do against our own DLine? Maybe our DLine is just really good…

 

[Blazers46]

Nope, nothing to do with our Dline. Just a lot of question marks i think the biggest concern right now is left tackle and right guard. Hopefully Lambert can step in at right guard. Spindler has the potential to be good at left tackle, coogan is ahead of him right now. Coogan doesn't make a lot of mistakes but just has less raw potential then Spindler. Hopefully Spindler can fine too things this off-season and step up.

Hopefully it doesn’t take them half the season to figure it.

 

[PutuporShutup]

Enough said right here about Hartman from last season. Hartman had a horrible game vs Louisville, we should've kept running the ball vs Clemson. Does ND win vs Duke if Hartman doesn't convert on 4th & 16 with his legs?

I am still glad that Hartman came to ND for his last season of college football.

We obviously do NOT win vs duke without his legs.

Hartman, oline, coaching staff, dj brown, all had horrible games vs Louisville

 

[PutuporShutup]

I am not a "stats are stats" guy because there are 20 other players on the field, ever changing rules, referees, and coaches deciding how players are used matters as well. All of which affect stats.

Nobody who watched both believes Keenan Reynolds was a better QB than Tommie Frazier was even though his stats blow Frazier out of the water.



Where did I say he wasn't good? Comments were comparing his Wake and ND numbers and laying them at the ND coaching staff's feet, while pretending like everything is equal between the situations.

Then you provide "ND could have ran it too", when that is pointed out, which is a lazy answer that again ignores the context that ND was never going to be able to run that offense last year and Hartman specifically didn't want to run that offense again.

So "ND could have ran it too" is just a bullshit answer and I was responding to that. Do not* extrapolate my comment to build an argument that I'm not making.

What argument are you making then?

 

[jprue24]

What argument are you making then?

Just going to pretend Hartman didn't run a gimmick offense at Wake Forest are we?

 

[DillonHall]

Disagree strongly, Ian was more clutch, but Sam was a better player with a worse supporting cast.

Agree to disagree

Ian had a better arm (just wish he was more willing to push the ball downfield), was way more mobile, and most importantly won lots of games for us. It's not a coincidence Ian was a 4th round pick and Hartman went undrafted

 

[Irish4life]

Just going to pretend Hartman didn't run a gimmick offense at Wake Forest are we?

It's not a gimmick offense, it's an offense built around being aggressive and attacking downfield with receivers that make plays. And our OC/HC basically scoffed at the very idea of attacking and being aggressive. Should've been a huge red flag in hindsight for how the 23 season was going to go.

 

[Irish4life]

Leonard must have one critical attribute this season: pocket awareness

With new OTs, it's critical he's reading the defense and keeping his periphery neurons active.

Hartman was an interesting QB to have for a year. It seems like he could've won the Ohio State game 2-3 times if he'd been able to execute the called play. Other times, he was certainly hamstrung by our injured/depleted/empty WR room (nothing agains the guys who were able to play and who weren't. it wasn't ideal).

Biggest reason that we lost is that we were playing Tressel ball in that game. There is no world where ND (or anyone) can win scoring 14 points against Ohio State.