Foreign Policy

[TorontoGold]

Agree 100%, but regardless of what might take precedent over religion, it doesn't change the fact this has its roots in religion. The entire ME is a conflict over religion.

Exactly, which is why this is non-religious issue with both former Israeli PM's and the head of the Mossad calling it an Apartheid. Can't have terrorists radicalized if the Palestinians have habitable living conditions.

The Israeli military is one of the most advanced in the world. Hamas fires crude rockets and kills several Israeli. Israelis retaliate and wipe out 10x the number of Hamas. It's civilized people against barbarians. They're bringing guns to fight tanks. They use suicide bombers in civilian locations, and they use innocent Palestinians as shields. The point is in recent years Hamas is typically the one firing the first shots.

Hamas is not representative of all Palestinians, so no, it's not just wiping out Hamas. It's killing Palestinians in hopes of killing Hamas.

Recent years? Which years? Because it sure looks like Palestinians have been hurting more.

 

[ulukinatme]

 

[Irish#1]

Israel says it killed 1,500 Hamas terrorists, pointing to a brutal fight ahead in Gaza

The large number of slain militants in the streets of Israel's south raises the question of how many fighters Hamas has in total, and what a looming invasion in Gaza might look like.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[ulukinatme]

Hamas is not representative of all Palestinians, so no, it's not just wiping out Hamas. It's killing Palestinians in hopes of killing Hamas.

Recent years? Which years? Because it sure looks like Palestinians have been hurting more.

I've known many Israelis, and they don't have a wish to wipe out Palestinians. They would rather live in peace and wish Hamas would go away. Many of them have friends that are Palestinians. You're completely off base there. They try to avoid killing innocents, but when Hamas constantly uses civilian locations like hotels or businesses to launch attacks you can only poke the bear so often before they have to retaliate to protect themselves. That's how they like to operate so when Israelis do launch a counterstrike it looks more malicious. They try to minimalize civilian casualties, but zero is an impossible number under the circumstances.

 

[Irish#1]

Exactly, which is why this is non-religious issue with both former Israeli PM's and the head of the Mossad calling it an Apartheid. Can't have terrorists radicalized if the Palestinians have habitable living conditions.


Hamas is not representative of all Palestinians, so no, it's not just wiping out Hamas. It's killing Palestinians in hopes of killing Hamas.

Recent years? Which years? Because it sure looks like Palestinians have been hurting more.

Even though The Apartheid Convention declares that apartheid is a crime against humanity, you can go ahead and ignore history and stand on this being strictly a racial thing and that's okay.

Hamas is not representative of all Palestinians, but are they not the ruling and controlling group there?

 

[ab2cmiller]

Even though The Apartheid Convention declares that apartheid is a crime against humanity, you can go ahead and ignore history and stand on this being strictly a racial thing and that's okay.

Hamas is not representative of all Palestinians, but are they not the ruling and controlling group there?

Seems like they generally support Hamas up until these latest events. I have no clue if they support these atrocities or not.

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-hamas

How do Palestinians view Hamas?​

The political bifurcation of the West Bank and Gaza is widely unpopular: a June 2023 poll [PDF] by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) showed that one-third of Palestinians consider it the most damaging development for their people since the state of Israel’s 1948 creation. The same poll found that more than half of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank would vote for Hamas’s Haniyeh over PA President Mahmoud Abbas in a presidential election, while just one-third of Palestinians would choose Abbas. Additionally, Abbas has indefinitely postponed national elections scheduled for 2021, citing Israel’s alleged refusal to let Palestinians in East Jerusalem vote, though observers suspect that Abbas aims to prevent a likely Hamas victory.

 

[Blazers46]

I've known many Israelis, and they don't have a wish to wipe out Palestinians. They would rather live in peace and wish Hamas would go away. Many of them have friends that are Palestinians. You're completely off base there. They try to avoid killing innocents, but when Hamas constantly uses civilian locations like hotels or businesses to launch attacks you can only poke the bear so often before they have to retaliate to protect themselves. That's how they like to operate so when Israelis do launch a counterstrike it looks more malicious. They try to minimalize civilian casualties, but zero is an impossible number under the circumstances.

Many years ago I had coworkers that were from the Middle East. Nicest people I ever met… but you bring up Israel or Jews they talk about murder and obliteration of the Zionists. I was ignorant to it all until then.

 

[TorontoGold]

I've known many Israelis, and they don't have a wish to wipe out Palestinians. They would rather live in peace and wish Hamas would go away. Many of them have friends that are Palestinians. You're completely off base there. They try to avoid killing innocents, but when Hamas constantly uses civilian locations like hotels or businesses to launch attacks you can only poke the bear so often before they have to retaliate to protect themselves. That's how they like to operate so when Israelis do launch a counterstrike it looks more malicious.

Off base where?

If we're getting into tit for tat anecdotes I work with many literal Israeli dual citizens as is the nature of accounting, and they don't advocate for wiping out Palestinians either. I don't fault the citizens as a whole for the Apartheid government, as it would be unfair for me to classify all Israeli's as supporters of the Apartheid.

Even though The Apartheid Convention declares that apartheid is a crime against humanity, you can go ahead and ignore history and stand on this being strictly a racial thing and that's okay.

Hamas is not representative of all Palestinians, but are they not the ruling and controlling group there?

On one hand you have UN/Amnesty International/B'Tselem/FIDH/HRW and Israeli PM's Rabin and Olmert, an Israeli AG Ben-Yair, and the former director of the Mossad Tamir Pardo have all called it an Apartheid and on the other you've got.....? In your post below, I assumed you agreed with me it is an Apartheid but now I'm not sure. Is it an Apartheid in your opinion?

Hamas is an islamist fundamentalist radical group, not exactly the most forward thinking bunch. Funny enough, Israel allowed them to operate because they weakened the position of the PLO who was the peaceful dominant force for Palestinians. Separating the ruling group from the actual citizens is important, otherwise you would brandish citizens of corrupt governments as the same as those in charge. I don't think you would call Russians/Syrian/Palestinians/Turks/Chinese people as terrible people, right?

Didn't know I was supposed to, but sure. It's Apartheid, but at the core this is religious. Always has been and always will be. South Africa has been about race.

 

[IrishLax]

At what point should we just carpet bomb Gaza and be done with this?

 

[calvegas04]

At what point should we just carpet bomb Gaza and be done with this?

Or Canada can take them in?

 

[Blazers46]

At what point should we just carpet bomb Gaza and be done with this?

Arabs just want land. Peaceful resolution is to let them share space…

 

[Blazers46]

Or Canada can take them in?

I know a good accountant in Toronto. Best tax service guaranteed or he will decapitate himself if you aren’t satisfied.

 

[ab2cmiller]

I know a good accountant in Toronto. Best tax service guaranteed or he will decapitate himself if you aren’t satisfied.

I know it's in italics and is a joke, but man that's in poor taste. Jews were beheaded man.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Arabs just want land. Peaceful resolution is to let them share space…

View attachment 3054593

Man, that's an awful lot of space to put the Palestinians. Israel seems pretty small in comparison.

 

[Sea Turtle]

At what point should we just carpet bomb Gaza and be done with this?

Remember, the Gazans said they would be satisfied if Israel just left and let them rule themselves.

 

[Blazers46]

I know it's in italics and is a joke, but man that's in poor taste. Jews were beheaded man.

It’s more of a frustrated sarcasm since a certain accountant thinks they can live in peace and live in perfect harmony together in n a shared state. My apologies if in poor taste but thinking these are acts of people that just want a little more slice of land infuriates me. People are so ignorant until it’s their door they’re knocking on next.

 

[tussin]

At what point should we just carpet bomb Gaza and be done with this?

They cannot self govern, they are ruled by barbaric terrorists, and their civilians (god bless) have been largely brainwashed to believe a racist ideology. What you suggest is probably close to what will happen.

Israel must avenge the dead and the terrorists need to be eradicated. Give civilians direction to leave, but after that not many options exist that don’t end in Gaza being wiped out.

 

[TorontoGold]

It’s more of a frustrated sarcasm since a certain accountant thinks they can live in peace and live in perfect harmony together in n a shared state. My apologies if in poor taste but thinking these are acts of people that just want a little more slice of land infuriates me. People are so ignorant until it’s their door they’re knocking on next.

Where did I say any of those things? I didn't think advocating for basic human rights for people living in an Apartheid state to be controversial.

The absolute irony of you saying people are ignorant while commenting in a childish manner making light of what radical Islamic fundamentalists have done. Class act!

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[Sea Turtle]

They cannot self govern, they are ruled by barbaric terrorists, and their civilians (god bless) have been largely brainwashed to believe a racist ideology. What you suggest is probably close to what will happen.

Israel must avenge the dead and the terrorists need to be eradicated. Give civilians direction to leave, but after that not many options exist that don’t end in Gaza being wiped out.

The civilians voted them in, which makes it even worse.

Your idea is something I've been thinking about. Wipe out Hamas to the furthest extent possible. Allow them to leave for the West Bank. Give them safe transportation from anyone who would try to stop them.
Offer them housing and infrastructure. Maybe the UN even gets involved.

Retake Gaza. The Palestinians are all together in the West Bank instead of being split. Pull the furthest jewish settlements back in the west bank. Give the Palestinians more autonomy in the West Bank. You have a quasi two state situation.

 

[Blazers46]

Where did I say any of those things? I didn't think advocating for basic human rights for people living in an Apartheid state to be controversial.

The absolute irony of you saying people are ignorant while commenting in a childish manner making light of what radical Islamic fundamentalists have done. Class act!

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You want a shared state. You want the beheaders to live with the beheaded. It’s pretty easy to see who you blame. Stop pretending to be on some moral high ground you fucking idiot.

 

[TorontoGold]

You want a shared state. You want the beheaders to live with the beheaded. It’s pretty easy to see who you blame. Stop pretending to be on some moral high ground you fucking idiot.

Where did I say the beheaders should be allowed to live? Can you at least point to where I've said that? Wild to throw out these accusations without any shred of proof.

With you, I am always going to be on the moral high ground.

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[Irish#1]

They cannot self govern, they are ruled by barbaric terrorists, and their civilians (god bless) have been largely brainwashed to believe a racist ideology. What you suggest is probably close to what will happen.

Israel must avenge the dead and the terrorists need to be eradicated. Give civilians direction to leave, but after that not many options exist that don’t end in Gaza being wiped out.

Im not sure Hamas would let them leave. Wouldn’t be surprised if they killed them as they attempted to leave.

 

[Irish#1]

At what point should we just carpet bomb Gaza and be done with this?

Should “we” as in the U.S. or Israel?

 

[tussin]

Where did I say the beheaders should be allowed to live? Can you at least point to where I've said that? Wild to throw out these accusations without any shred of proof.

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Can you point to a shred of evidence that Palestinian leadership and majority of the population supports an integrated society with Jews? You can’t. There is no Ghandi-like figure of Palestine leading the masses toward a peaceful future. Palestinian ideology is built on fundamental Jew hatred that far pre-dates the State of Israel. A one state solution means dead Jews.

The most generous read of all your posts is one of idealistic ignorance. At worst, it’s basic anti-semitism masked in UN-endorsed pseudo-intellectualism.

 

[drayer54]

Or Canada can take them in?

So we can have two borders being flooded with people?

 

[calvegas04]

So we can have two borders being flooded with people?

The moose will protect us

 

[TorontoGold]

Can you point to a shred of evidence that Palestinian leadership and majority of the population supports an integrated society with Jews? You can’t. There is no Ghandi-like figure of Palestine leading the masses toward a peaceful future. Palestinian ideology is built on fundamental Jew hatred that far pre-dates the State of Israel. A one state solution means dead Jews.

The most generous read of all your posts is one of idealistic ignorance. At worst, it’s basic anti-semitism masked in UN-endorsed pseudo-intellectualism.

Can you point to any legitimate part of any of my posts that is anti-semtic at all? If you're going to say "at worst antisemitic" then please share something that you believe hints at that.

Like I've said before, Palestinians have been given terrible leadership where Hamas has been allowed to fester. Israeli leadership legitimized them and propped them up with they could have allowed for a more moderate opposition.

There is no legitimate inspirational figure because the Israeli government hasn't allowed for there to be one. I am only arguing for basic human rights to be given to Palestinians, if that is antisemitic then say it.

Also - I will say it's an interesting time to take a shot at me when you have Ulukinatme calling for Palestinians to lose all right to their land, and Blazers comparing me with Hamas. But, go on and lecture me on hate speech. If you're going to hint at anti-Semitic comments you'll have to bring proof. I know the trailer park fellas will lap up anything that takes a shot at me.

@ulukinatme don't be a coward- use your words and tell me why I should be booed. You want to respond to my posts back to you that I made in good faith, of have you entered the Blazer/Turtle spectrum?

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[tussin]

Can you point to any legitimate part of any of my posts that is anti-semtic at all? If you're going to say "at worst antisemitic" then please share something that you believe hints at that.

Like I've said before, Palestinians have been given terrible leadership where Hamas has been allowed to fester. Israeli leadership legitimized them and propped them up with they could have allowed for a more moderate opposition.

There is no legitimate inspirational figure because the Israeli government hasn't allowed for there to be one. I am only arguing for basic human rights to be given to Palestinians, if that is antisemitic then say it.
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Israel has not occupied Gaza for almost 20 years. Hamas was elected by the Palestinians. There is no voice of peace in the Palestinian movement - not from Gaza, not from the West Bank, not from Lebanon or Iran. The “moderates” of Fatah praised the killings of this past weekend. Again, I tell you… there are no good guys in this group. They want to kill Jews and this is a stated goal. It’s been the case since before Israel when there were similar instances of massacre. These are all facts.

I find the problem with your framing is that you assign absolutely no agency to the Palestinians. Hamas is in leadership? Well that’s obviously Israels fault! Hamas states that there is no diplomatic solution that doesn’t end with dead Jews? Well, it’s Israel’s fault that those sentiments exist. Palestinians in Gaza living in squalor? Obviously Israel’s fault! Civilian casualties despite roof knocking and public evac notices? Doesn’t matter still Israel’s fault.

You keep referencing an “apartheid” state of Israel. Yet, Israel is 20% Muslim and has a Muslim Supreme Court Justice. Is there a single Jew that is accepted in Palestinian society? That’s not a rhetorical, name one person.

Maybe all of your perspectives are coming from a strict neo-liberal worldview that I just can’t agree with, but at a certain point anti-Zionism sounds a lot like anti-semitism.

 

[Bluto]

Israel has not occupied Gaza for almost 20 years. Hamas was elected by the Palestinians. There is no voice of peace in the Palestinian movement - not from Gaza, not from the West Bank, not from Lebanon or Iran. The “moderates” of Fatah praised the killings of this past weekend. Again, I tell you… there are no good guys in this group. They want to kill Jews and this is a stated goal. It’s been the case since before Israel when there were similar instances of massacre. These are all facts.

I find the problem with your framing is that you assign absolutely no agency to the Palestinians. Hamas is in leadership? Well that’s obviously Israels fault! Hamas states that there is no diplomatic solution that doesn’t end with dead Jews? Well, it’s Israel’s fault that those sentiments exist. Palestinians in Gaza living in squalor? Obviously Israel’s fault! Civilian casualties despite roof knocking and public evac notices? Doesn’t matter still Israel’s fault.

You keep referencing an “apartheid” state of Israel. Yet, Israel is 20% Muslim and has a Muslim Supreme Court Justice. Is there a single Jew that is accepted in Palestinian society? That’s not a rhetorical, name one person.

Maybe all of your perspectives are coming from a strict neo-liberal worldview that I just can’t agree with, but at a certain point anti-Zionism sounds a lot like anti-semitism.

You do understand that all of what is now Israel was Palestine and that Gaza is largely a “refugee camp” composed of Palestinians that used to live in what is now Israel right?

As to Israel wanting to live in peace and doesn’t target civilians ehhhh…the IDF used to blow shit up in public markets in Lebanon.

In fact, terrorist bombings was a go to of the early Zionist movement during the British Mandate period and groups like the Jewish National Council killed a good number of British soldiers during that insurgency. So yeah. Israel was found by what the British viewed as “terrorists”.

Zionism is not Judaism. In fact there are anti Zionist Jews. Modern day Zionism was created by a Hungarian Jew named Theodor Herzl in the late 1800’s.

At what point should we just carpet bomb Gaza and be done with this?

Have you seen the movie the Battle for Algiers?

To answer your question. Arabs have plenty of land. Jews do not. It matters because they cannot coexist, they never have and never will.

Wrong. Jews have existed and were integrated into society all over the Middle East for thousands of years.

Man you all need to crack open some history books for fucks sake.

 

[Irish#1]

Israel has called up 300K reservists. Biden has sent arms to Israel to ensure they don't run out. Complete siege cutting off power, water and food now in affect.

It will be interesting to see if Hezbollah continues or if this is a singular incident.

“In response to the anti-tank missile fired at IDF soldiers a short while ago, an IDF aircraft struck a military observation post belonging to the Hezbollah terrorist organization in southern Lebanon. Furthermore, IDF artillery struck the area from which the launch originated,” the IDF said.