Culture

[ulukinatme]

It's literally not a false equivalency, we're talking about sexual assault, no? If you're worried about children being assaulted at school or in school programs such as sports - why are trans people getting your attention? Hmmmm

Easily preventable? In bringing in laws/rules for "verifying" a child's genitalia you're giving more access points for school doctors/coaches whoever will be the one administering the "verification". That process would impact exponentially more kids than the sanctity of like 3 random track and field events per state a year. Little Janey is having a record setting season in the 100M? Surely no jealous parents from a rival school will request a "verification" of her genitals. Oh, Brittany is getting bullied at school but the only place she can get enjoyment is in shot put? Would be a real shame if the school bullies submitted anonymous genital inspections.

Time and time again lol, Lia Thomas was the first trans athlete to win a division I national championship. How many records do trans women hold in the NCAA record books? Caster Semenya was born a female and has an incredibly high amount of testosterone but isn't trans and holds Olympic golds - what happens to her?

Sports have always been about genetic imbalances between competitors, look at Phelps as his domination. I don't think the outrage and exposure of random kids to potentially traumatizing inspections at the hands of strangers to be worth it so that Beth's track meet doesn't allow 1 extra participant.

If people were "trans'ing" themselves to break records surely we'd see a huge influx of trans women breaking records? No?

What are you babbling about? Who isn't worried about children being sexually assaulted by a teacher or coach? Yeah, that stuff happens more often and it needs to stop, but in that regard it's also a matter of finding guilty parties that are hiding. Most pedophiles aren't exactly out in the open about their crimes. Trans people in sports on the other hand are usually out in the open.

Again, nobody here has suggested checking children's genitals, I don't know why you're bringing that up. Last I checked any state bills that were rumored to have such a provision were either removed or never existed. It was mostly fear mongering.

You're the one that limited this to the NCAA. There have been plenty of high school records that have been smashed by trans athletes. I'm not limiting this strictly to college. This shouldn't be allowed across the board.

Last I checked Michael Phelps was a generational athlete that didn't break any rules. He wasn't like Lance Armstrong and found to be doping or cheating the system, he was a gifted athlete that was legitimately the best and worked at his craft to be the best among his peers. Phelps is in no way the same as a man destroying women in track, swimming, wrestling, etc.

Again, why do you want biological men competing against women?

 

[TorontoGold]

What are you babbling about? Who isn't worried about children being sexually assaulted by a teacher or coach? Yeah, that stuff happens more often and it needs to stop, but in that regard it's also a matter of finding guilty parties that are hiding. Most pedophiles aren't exactly out in the open about their crimes. Trans people in sports on the other hand are usually out in the open.

Again, nobody here has suggested checking children's genitals, I don't know why you're bringing that up. Last I checked any state bills that were rumored to have such a provision were either removed or never existed. It was mostly fear mongering.

You're the one that limited this to the NCAA. There have been plenty of high school records that have been smashed by trans athletes. I'm not limiting this strictly to college. This shouldn't be allowed across the board.

Last I checked Michael Phelps was a generational athlete that didn't break any rules. He wasn't like Lance Armstrong and found to be doping or cheating the system, he was a gifted athlete that was legitimately the best and worked at his craft to be the best among his peers. Phelps is in no way the same as a man destroying women in track, swimming, wrestling, etc.

Again, why do you want biological men competing against women?

Could you clarify the point about trans people being more out in the open and how that relates to pedophiles? My interpretation (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you are saying that it's easier to spot trans kids and therefore it's easier to spot pedophiles and this inferring that having a trans kid is a pedophile?

Ok, so how exactly do trans athletes get "spotted" and taken out? Do the athletes just have to sign a waiver saying what genitals they have? How does an athlete prove that without getting some sort of verification? To my previous point I don't see how such a hateful position is not going to impact any girl that's born with girl parts way more than any possible trans kid. Like this is going to backfire so hard and lead to incredible image issues for so many young girls because a hateful minority wants to do a transvestigation because their kid is getting beat.

I limited it to NCAA because I was able to find statistics to backup my position that this isn't even remotely an issue at the collegiate level. I tried finding anything literally anything on high school records being "smashed" by trans kids, and I couldn't find it. Maybe you could share this data? Maybe my algorithm isn't showing it to me.

Michael Phelps was born with genetic abnormalities that allowed him advantages over his competitors. He was lucky in that his passion lined up with his unicorn genetics. In no world did he just "want it more", he was given a great set of genes and absolutely killed it with them.

In terms of having biological men vs women? I don't see it being an issue at all. Can you tell me how many Olympic gold medals have been won by a trans woman? One and they were born with female parts at birth lmao.

There's no need to keep the guise of protecting "little girls sports" when there's been 10 division athletes that have ever been trans, 1 gold medalist who won in soccer being born with girl parts, insufficient results on where the "smashed high school records" are, and not to mention the societal risk of having young girls prove their genitals because Darryl and Peggy think their girl is actually the best at the 800m. It's such a miniscule thing that's being pushed by MSM and social media to drum up the faux outrage.

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[Irish#1]

It's literally not a false equivalency, we're talking about sexual assault, no? If you're worried about children being assaulted at school or in school programs such as sports - why are trans people getting your attention? Hmmmm

Easily preventable? In bringing in laws/rules for "verifying" a child's genitalia you're giving more access points for school doctors/coaches whoever will be the one administering the "verification". That process would impact exponentially more kids than the sanctity of like 3 random track and field events per state a year. Little Janey is having a record setting season in the 100M? Surely no jealous parents from a rival school will request a "verification" of her genitals. Oh, Brittany is getting bullied at school but the only place she can get enjoyment is in shot put? Would be a real shame if the school bullies submitted anonymous genital inspections.

Time and time again lol, Lia Thomas was the first trans athlete to win a division I national championship. How many records do trans women hold in the NCAA record books? Caster Semenya was born a female and has an incredibly high amount of testosterone but isn't trans and holds Olympic golds - what happens to her?

Sports have always been about genetic imbalances between competitors, look at Phelps as his domination. I don't think the outrage and exposure of random kids to potentially traumatizing inspections at the hands of strangers to be worth it so that Beth's track meet doesn't allow 1 extra participant.

If people were "trans'ing" themselves to break records surely we'd see a huge influx of trans women breaking records? No?

To the bolded.
This is a recently new phenomenon, so it's not surprising they're aren't many at the moment.

Yes, but the imbalance has been within the male or female gender, where the difference isn't nearly as great.

Any objection to creating a Trans category so they can compete against their equals?

 

[Irish#1]

Could you clarify the point about trans people being more out in the open and how that relates to pedophiles? My interpretation (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you are saying that it's easier to spot trans kids and therefore it's easier to spot pedophiles and this inferring that having a trans kid is a pedophile?

Ok, so how exactly do trans athletes get "spotted" and taken out? Do the athletes just have to sign a waiver saying what genitals they have? How does an athlete prove that without getting some sort of verification? To my previous point I don't see how such a hateful position is not going to impact any girl that's born with girl parts way more than any possible trans kid. Like this is going to backfire so hard and lead to incredible image issues for so many young girls because a hateful minority wants to do a transvestigation because their kid is getting beat.

I limited it to NCAA because I was able to find statistics to backup my position that this isn't even remotely an issue at the collegiate level. I tried finding anything literally anything on high school records being "smashed" by trans kids, and I couldn't find it. Maybe you could share this data? Maybe my algorithm isn't showing it to me.

Michael Phelps was born with genetic abnormalities that allowed him advantages over his competitors. He was lucky in that his passion lined up with his unicorn genetics. In no world did he just "want it more", he was given a great set of genes and absolutely killed it with them.

In terms of having biological men vs women? I don't see it being an issue at all. Can you tell me how many Olympic gold medals have been won by a trans woman? One and they were born with female parts at birth lmao.

There's no need to keep the guise of protecting "little girls sports" when there's been 10 division athletes that have ever been trans, 1 gold medalist who won in soccer being born with girl parts, insufficient results on where the "smashed high school records" are, and not to mention the societal risk of having young girls prove their genitals because Darryl and Peggy think their girl is actually the best at the 800m. It's such a miniscule thing that's being pushed by MSM and social media to drum up the faux outrage.

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To make one Transgender happy and let them compete, we have to dump on the female athletes and upset them? Why are the feelings of a Transgender more important?

 

[TorontoGold]

To the bolded.
This is a recently new phenomenon, so it's not surprising they're aren't many at the moment.

Yes, but the imbalance has been within the male or female gender, where the difference isn't nearly as great.

Any objection to creating a Trans category so they can compete against their equals?

So if there's only been 10 D1 athletes ever, do you think it makes sense to have state legislatures spend their precious time on this?

There would never be the 1) athletes available to create a division 2) you and I both know psychos would go there and harass them.

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[jprue24]

Only you, but for clarification. It's not unusual or out of the norm for you to use profanity or call someone names. Blazer doesn't make it a regular thing. Neither does Toronto, Gattaca. 41 has been known to do it and I've called him out as well. So what would be accomplished with me calling you a delusional cocksucker?

Lol, glad I'm important enough for the effort. You sure it's not because I said "fucking old people" one time and that rustled your jimmies?

 

[Irish#1]

Lol, glad I'm important enough for the effort. You sure it's not because I said "fucking old people" one time and that rustled your jimmies?

Not in the least. I'm an old fart, know it and still enjoying life. The best compliment the wife and I got was from our son in law. "I wish my mom and dad were as active and as fun as you two". BTW.....you know the best thing about young people? They eventually get old! lol

 

[ulukinatme]

Replies below. I'll ask a third time: Why should biological men be competing against women?

Could you clarify the point about trans people being more out in the open and how that relates to pedophiles? My interpretation (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you are saying that it's easier to spot trans kids and therefore it's easier to spot pedophiles and this inferring that having a trans kid is a pedophile?

What are you talking about? No, I'm in no way saying that. Why are we still going down this road? It's not at all pertinent to the discussion. Welcome to the Vortex? Stay on topic.

Ok, so how exactly do trans athletes get "spotted" and taken out? Do the athletes just have to sign a waiver saying what genitals they have? How does an athlete prove that without getting some sort of verification? To my previous point I don't see how such a hateful position is not going to impact any girl that's born with girl parts way more than any possible trans kid. Like this is going to backfire so hard and lead to incredible image issues for so many young girls because a hateful minority wants to do a transvestigation because their kid is getting beat.

This isn't hard. Use the birth certificate with their gender assigned at birth. Just stop with the genital inspection.

I limited it to NCAA because I was able to find statistics to backup my position that this isn't even remotely an issue at the collegiate level. I tried finding anything literally anything on high school records being "smashed" by trans kids, and I couldn't find it. Maybe you could share this data? Maybe my algorithm isn't showing it to me.

Work on your Google skills, my guy. It isn't about just records, it's about fair competition. If a trans girl takes a podium spot from a biological girl they're taking a spot they had an unfair advantage obtaining. If there's a biological boy playing on a team of girls he has a distinct physical advantage. Here's just a few from track, cross country, basketball, etc.

Outrage after US trans teen sprinter breaks record

Transgender teen's win has left people wondering if it's fair she was allowed to compete.

www.nzherald.co.nz

School's out but the records live on: 2nd Circuit tackles battle over trans track stars

A group of female athletes say the issue isn't moot since a reversal could add four state championships to one teen's resumé.

www.courthousenews.com

Trans runner wins another women's race one year after breaking record, angering critics

Critics are furious after Tiffany Newell, a trans woman who is biologically male, won another major Canadian running competition.

wpde.com

A Look At the Numbers and Times: No Denying the Advantages of Lia Thomas

The times and rankings of Penn's Lia Thomas are clear and undeniable. The transgender swimmer has an obvious edge over biological women.

www.swimmingworldmagazine.com

Transgender female cross-country runner dominating new competition after struggling against boys

A transgender female in Seattle, Washington, is dominating her new cross-country competition after struggling to compete with the boys last year.

www.foxnews.com

Vermont school’s basketball team refuses to play against trans athlete

Mid Vermont Christian school’s girls’ team forfeit basketball tournament rather than face team with transgender player

www.theguardian.com

This one falls under a trans boy wrestling other girls, but they're taking testosterone as part of their transition. Credit the wrestler Beggs, they want to actually wrestle against boys, but Texas won't allow it because they go by birth certificate. Why they're still able to wrestle girls while taking testosterone though is beyond me.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/27/517491492/17-year-old-transgender-boy-wins-texas-girls-wrestling-championship

Michael Phelps was born with genetic abnormalities that allowed him advantages over his competitors. He was lucky in that his passion lined up with his unicorn genetics. In no world did he just "want it more", he was given a great set of genes and absolutely killed it with them.

Phelps has a few physical advantages maybe like being tall, long arms, etc...but is he competing against girls or other men? Can you imagine the women's records that would shatter if Phelps decided to identify as female and compete? Do you think Canada's own Summer McIntosh would happily give up the 400m record to him? Phelps competed fairly against other males, he didn't compete with an unfair advantage. You're also downplaying the work he did to achieve his success, his training regime was quite intense. He didn't just wake up as a world record swimmer.

In terms of having biological men vs women? I don't see it being an issue at all. Can you tell me how many Olympic gold medals have been won by a trans woman? One and they were born with female parts at birth lmao.

Why even have women's sports then if biological men can compete against them? Maybe the NFL should allow women to join. How many women do you think will make the 53 man roster? Maybe you'd find a lone kicker like a few college teams have, but I doubt it. Again, it isn't about Olympic gold medals, why would that even be the barometer? Any woman that loses a qualifying spot to a biological man has been screwed. Any woman forced to guard a biological man on the basketball court is screwed. How did Serena and Venus Williams, once two of the top athletes in women's tennis, do against mediocre male tennis players? Screwed. What you're saying is you're basically okay with high school athletes competing against college level talent.

There's no need to keep the guise of protecting "little girls sports" when there's been 10 division athletes that have ever been trans, 1 gold medalist who won in soccer being born with girl parts, insufficient results on where the "smashed high school records" are, and not to mention the societal risk of having young girls prove their genitals because Darryl and Peggy think their girl is actually the best at the 800m. It's such a miniscule thing that's being pushed by MSM and social media to drum up the faux outrage.

Clearly it's not just a "faux outrage" thing because athletes like Riley have been directly affected by this and are speaking out, not to mention the parents of these athletes.

 

[TorontoGold]

Replies below. I'll ask a third time: Why should biological men be competing against women?

Did you ask this and then quote my answer below?

What are you talking about? No, I'm in no way saying that. Why are we still going down this road? It's not at all pertinent to the discussion. Welcome to the Vortex? Stay on topic.

"Yeah, that stuff happens more often and it needs to stop, but in that regard it's also a matter of finding guilty parties that are hiding. Most pedophiles aren't exactly out in the open about their crimes. Trans people in sports on the other hand are usually out in the open."

You made this point, I asked you to clarify what you meant. Slow your role lol. What does this point mean?

This isn't hard. Use the birth certificate with their gender assigned at birth. Just stop with the genital inspection.

Ah got it, so you would instantly recognize someone as their correct gender if they got their birth certificate changed to their preferred gender? lol I doubt that and it appears to be quite easy to do based on a quick check of Texas' laws.

Work on your Google skills, my guy. It isn't about just records, it's about fair competition. If a trans girl takes a podium spot from a biological girl they're taking a spot they had an unfair advantage obtaining. If there's a biological boy playing on a team of girls he has a distinct physical advantage. Here's just a few from track, cross country, basketball, etc.

Outrage after US trans teen sprinter breaks record

Transgender teen's win has left people wondering if it's fair she was allowed to compete.

www.nzherald.co.nz

School's out but the records live on: 2nd Circuit tackles battle over trans track stars

A group of female athletes say the issue isn't moot since a reversal could add four state championships to one teen's resumé.

www.courthousenews.com

Trans runner wins another women's race one year after breaking record, angering critics

Critics are furious after Tiffany Newell, a trans woman who is biologically male, won another major Canadian running competition.

wpde.com

A Look At the Numbers and Times: No Denying the Advantages of Lia Thomas

The times and rankings of Penn's Lia Thomas are clear and undeniable. The transgender swimmer has an obvious edge over biological women.

www.swimmingworldmagazine.com

Transgender female cross-country runner dominating new competition after struggling against boys

A transgender female in Seattle, Washington, is dominating her new cross-country competition after struggling to compete with the boys last year.

www.foxnews.com

Vermont school’s basketball team refuses to play against trans athlete

Mid Vermont Christian school’s girls’ team forfeit basketball tournament rather than face team with transgender player

www.theguardian.com

This one falls under a trans boy wrestling other girls, but they're taking testosterone as part of their transition. Credit the wrestler Beggs, they want to actually wrestle against boys, but Texas won't allow it because they go by birth certificate. Why they're still able to wrestle girls while taking testosterone though is beyond me.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/27/517491492/17-year-old-transgender-boy-wins-texas-girls-wrestling-championship

You mentioned smashed records, my guy. Is that claim incorrect? The IOC has regulations that have limitations on testosterone levels for women competing. I think these are pretty fair and wouldn't have an issue with those being the standard for all competitions.

Phelps has a few physical advantages maybe like being tall, long arms, etc...but is he competing against girls or other men? Can you imagine the women's records that would shatter if Phelps decided to identify as female and compete? Do you think Canada's own Summer McIntosh would happily give up the 400m record to him? Phelps competed fairly against other males, he didn't compete with an unfair advantage. You're also downplaying the work he did to achieve his success, his training regime was quite intense. He didn't just wake up as a world record swimmer.

Why even have women's sports then if biological men can compete against them? Maybe the NFL should allow women to join. How many women do you think will make the 53 man roster? Maybe you'd find a lone kicker like a few college teams have, but I doubt it. Again, it isn't about Olympic gold medals, why would that even be the barometer? Any woman that loses a qualifying spot to a biological man has been screwed. Any woman forced to guard a biological man on the basketball court is screwed. How did Serena and Venus Williams, once two of the top athletes in women's tennis, do against mediocre male tennis players? Screwed. What you're saying is you're basically okay with high school athletes competing against college level talent.

As mentioned above the IOC has clear rules https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-r...e-basis-of-gender-identity-and-sex-variations

Phelps would have to undergo significant gender transformational hormones to get under those guidelines so this is a false equivalency by a large large magnitude. If it was easy to pass these requirements we both know that someone on the Right would try to get by the guidelines to prove that it's a farce. That has not happened, and will never happen because nobody is trans'ing themselves to compete. It's a far right scare tactic lol.

Ok so my barometer was used because you've made claims of records being smashed. But if you'd to reasses that position and make it trans atheltes participating in the olympics there's only been 12 trans athletes ever. They aren't even all MTF.

Clearly it's not just a "faux outrage" thing because athletes like Riley have been directly affected by this and are speaking out, not to mention the parents of these athletes.

Absolutely is faux outrage because it's something that isn't impacting anyone - aside from the trivial amounts of people that face these athletes. The coverage it's getting by MSM and on social media outpaces it's actual impact by exponential magnitudes and only meant to inflame transphobia.

 

[ulukinatme]

Did you ask this and then quote my answer below?

Saying you don't think it's an issue isn't really answering the question, it's a bit of a dodge. Perhaps it needs to be specific, explain why you feel it's okay for biological males to compete against females. Olympic gold medals aren't the only thing on the table. By dismissing the question you're basically saying that all women's records, their qualifying spots, all recognition is meaningless if men can compete against them.

"Yeah, that stuff happens more often and it needs to stop, but in that regard it's also a matter of finding guilty parties that are hiding. Most pedophiles aren't exactly out in the open about their crimes. Trans people in sports on the other hand are usually out in the open."

You made this point, I asked you to clarify what you meant. Slow your role lol. What does this point mean?

Again, you brought the topic of sexual assault and teachers into this discussion. It's a completely separate topic that really doesn't have a bearing on this discussion. I really don't know why you want to beat this dead horse. I'll humor you though. You said "Yeah my daughter has a higher chance of being subjected to sexual assault by a teacher at school than she theoretically would by having a trans person in her changeroom." Again, why does frequency matter when it comes to injustice? Just because something wrong happens infrequently doesn't mean it shouldn't be prevented. Notre Dame was the first team to block a field goal by jumping off the back of another player. It only hurt one team, but the NCAA made a rule the next season preventing it...and rightly so. I don't know why you're wanting to beat this dead horse. Seriously, your whole line of questioning here is going no where and isn't pertinent to the discussion.

Ah got it, so you would instantly recognize someone as their correct gender if they got their birth certificate changed to their preferred gender? lol I doubt that and it appears to be quite easy to do based on a quick check of Texas' laws.

Ahh, no. Read it again "This isn't hard. Use the birth certificate with their gender assigned at birth." I did not say recognize someone based on a changed birth certificate. Apparently that was too hard.

You mentioned smashed records, my guy. Is that claim incorrect? The IOC has regulations that have limitations on testosterone levels for women competing. I think these are pretty fair and wouldn't have an issue with those being the standard for all competitions.

As mentioned above the IOC has clear rules https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-r...e-basis-of-gender-identity-and-sex-variations

Did those testosterone limitations prevent Lia Thomas from jumping from 554th in the freestyle as a man to the top of the women's division? No, no it did not.

Phelps would have to undergo significant gender transformational hormones to get under those guidelines so this is a false equivalency by a large large magnitude. If it was easy to pass these requirements we both know that someone on the Right would try to get by the guidelines to prove that it's a farce. That has not happened, and will never happen because nobody is trans'ing themselves to compete. It's a far right scare tactic lol.

It doesn't really matter if they're trans'ing to compete or not. They are transing, they're competing, and they're winning. It's not a "far right scare tactic," it's reality.

Ok so my barometer was used because you've made claims of records being smashed. But if you'd to reasses that position and make it trans atheltes participating in the olympics there's only been 12 trans athletes ever. They aren't even all MTF.

Absolutely is faux outrage because it's something that isn't impacting anyone - aside from the trivial amounts of people that face these athletes. The coverage it's getting by MSM and on social media outpaces it's actual impact by exponential magnitudes and only meant to inflame transphobia.

Yes, I mentioned smashing records, but that's never been my position on the matter. My position has always been that biological men should not be competing against women because any achievements made are garnered under unfair advantage. It doesn't matter if a trans girl takes 1st or 6th, if there's a biological girl that placed 7th or was unable to even qualify because of a trans girl then an injustice has occurred. Anytime a trans girl takes a scholarship that would have gone to a biological girl they're unfairly hurting women's sports. Nothing is stopping them from competing against men. The whole purpose Title IX was created was to prevent discrimination and promote equal opportunity for men and women in sports...what is the point if men start playing women's sports?

Again, you're 100% wrong that it isn't impatcting anyone because athletes and parents that are directly affected by this are speaking out. Why would you trivialize their achievements and force them to compete on a completely unlevel playing field? You want to talk about few numbers, do the needs of the many (biological girls) not outweigh the needs of the few (trans girls)? Make them compete against boys, problem solved.

 

[TorontoGold]

Saying you don't think it's an issue isn't really answering the question, it's a bit of a dodge. Perhaps it needs to be specific, explain why you feel it's okay for biological males to compete against females. Olympic gold medals aren't the only thing on the table. By dismissing the question you're basically saying that all women's records, their qualifying spots, all recognition is meaningless if men can compete against them.

I don't believe it to be an issue because it happens less than people getting killed by lightning. However, I stated that the IOC rules for testosterone to be a pretty good barometer for biological makeup. I'll leave it to the people who do this sort of thing for a living.

Again, you brought the topic of sexual assault and teachers into this discussion. It's a completely separate topic that really doesn't have a bearing on this discussion. I really don't know why you want to beat this dead horse. I'll humor you though. You said "Yeah my daughter has a higher chance of being subjected to sexual assault by a teacher at school than she theoretically would by having a trans person in her changeroom." Again, why does frequency matter when it comes to injustice? Just because something wrong happens infrequently doesn't mean it shouldn't be prevented. Notre Dame was the first team to block a field goal by jumping off the back of another player. It only hurt one team, but the NCAA made a rule the next season preventing it...and rightly so. I don't know why you're wanting to beat this dead horse. Seriously, your whole line of questioning here is going no where and isn't pertinent to the discussion.

My point was having girls prove their gender would lead to more opportunity for sexual assualt and you countered with spotting pedo's being tough and trans people being easier. We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

Ahh, no. Read it again "This isn't hard. Use the birth certificate with their gender assigned at birth." I did not say recognize someone based on a changed birth certificate. Apparently that was too hard.

Here's how a sex change on your Georgia birth certificate works. You can get a birth certificate with a corrected sex without being indicated as amended. So my point still stands on as soon as someone isn't satisfied with the provided birth certificate there will need to be a genital inspection or some other sort of verification.

Georgia.

Did those testosterone limitations prevent Lia Thomas from jumping from 554th in the freestyle as a man to the top of the women's division? No, no it did not.


It doesn't really matter if they're trans'ing to compete or not. They are transing, they're competing, and they're winning. It's not a "far right scare tactic," it's reality.

It does matter, though because if this was a large issue there would be a noticeable amount of people trans'ing there way into sports and dominating. This isn't the case.

Yes, I mentioned smashing records, but that's never been my position on the matter. My position has always been that biological men should not be competing against women because any achievements made are garnered under unfair advantage. It doesn't matter if a trans girl takes 1st or 6th, if there's a biological girl that placed 7th or was unable to even qualify because of a trans girl then an injustice has occurred. Anytime a trans girl takes a scholarship that would have gone to a biological girl they're unfairly hurting women's sports. Nothing is stopping them from competing against men. The whole purpose Title IX was created was to prevent discrimination and promote equal opportunity for men and women in sports...what is the point if men start playing women's sports?

But we've already discussed this, there has only been 10 D1 athletes ever that have been trans. We're at a stalemate here because my position is that it isn't worth the transphobia from some towards trans people to have these new laws and the potential of having big impacts on cisgendered girls. We're not going to agree on this. I get your point and I think if there was a regulation adopted by the individual states that mirrored the IOC testosterone level requirement that would likely be pretty non-partisan.

Again, you're 100% wrong that it isn't impatcting anyone because athletes and parents that are directly affected by this are speaking out. Why would you trivialize their achievements and force them to compete on a completely unlevel playing field? You want to talk about few numbers, do the needs of the many (biological girls) not outweigh the needs of the few (trans girls)? Make them compete against boys, problem solved.

Let's remember, the many in this case are 10 D1 scholarships being allocated to trans athletes. I am taking my position solely on the protection of young girls that would be targeted by jealous parents and bullies at schools that would use any sort of trans-vestagations to harm them. In regards to the trans kids, if they were subject to the same IOC rules and whatever a biologist determined to be appropriate that would be ok with me.

 

[drayer54]

I don't believe it to be an issue because it happens less than people getting killed by lightning. However, I stated that the IOC rules for testosterone to be a pretty good barometer for biological makeup. I'll leave it to the people who do this sort of thing for a living.

My 9 year old girl plays basketball with a biological male who converted to girl. I doubt she’s in your data. I suspect it isn’t that rare anymore.

 

[Bishop2b5]

 

[Blazers46]

Former N.H. state rep. arrested in child sexual abuse case at Tyngsborough day care

Stacie M. Laughton made headlines as the first openly transgender lawmaker elected in New Hampshire.

www.boston.com

 

[ulukinatme]

Not exactly Tyson, but this trans fighter did break a girl's skull in 39 seconds.

 

[ulukinatme]

I don't believe it to be an issue because it happens less than people getting killed by lightning. However, I stated that the IOC rules for testosterone to be a pretty good barometer for biological makeup. I'll leave it to the people who do this sort of thing for a living.

Frequency of an injustice doesn't make the injustice any less wrong. If I drive sober 364 days out of the year, but one time I decide to drive home drunk and get pulled over I'm still going to get punished and rightfully so.

My point was having girls prove their gender would lead to more opportunity for sexual assualt and you countered with spotting pedo's being tough and trans people being easier. We'll have to agree to disagree on this.


Here's how a sex change on your Georgia birth certificate works. You can get a birth certificate with a corrected sex without being indicated as amended. So my point still stands on as soon as someone isn't satisfied with the provided birth certificate there will need to be a genital inspection or some other sort of verification.

Georgia.

If that's the case then birth certificates can be disqualified in Georgia. There's plenty of other ways that can be used. They'll can revert to blood testing or other means. Nobody needs to be checking genitals.

It does matter, though because if this was a large issue there would be a noticeable amount of people trans'ing there way into sports and dominating. This isn't the case.

Again, frequency of a crime doesn't make it any less wrong. We know that biological men are competing against women and they're winning in multiple sports. This is reality. They should not be taking achievements away from girls.

But we've already discussed this, there has only been 10 D1 athletes ever that have been trans. We're at a stalemate here because my position is that it isn't worth the transphobia from some towards trans people to have these new laws and the potential of having big impacts on cisgendered girls. We're not going to agree on this. I get your point and I think if there was a regulation adopted by the individual states that mirrored the IOC testosterone level requirement that would likely be pretty non-partisan.

Let's remember, the many in this case are 10 D1 scholarships being allocated to trans athletes. I am taking my position solely on the protection of young girls that would be targeted by jealous parents and bullies at schools that would use any sort of trans-vestagations to harm them. In regards to the trans kids, if they were subject to the same IOC rules and whatever a biologist determined to be appropriate that would be ok with me.

It doesn't matter if there's 10 or there's 1000. Title IX was created to protect women's and men's sports. When a trans girl takes a scholarship they're literally removing one biological girl and replacing them with another boy. It doesn't just apply to college though, it's across the board with women's sports. It doesn't matter if it's high school, college, pro, amateur. There's nothing preventing these trans girls from competing with boys, that's where they should be competing.

 

[TorontoGold]

Frequency of an injustice doesn't make the injustice any less wrong. If I drive sober 364 days out of the year, but one time I decide to drive home drunk and get pulled over I'm still going to get punished and rightfully so.

Can this line of thinking be expanded to any other circumstances? Just curious if you're bringing this line of thinking to any other "injustices" or if it's specifically targeted at trans people. Shoot, I can rifle off a couple quick bullet points of some other issues that impact significantly more children and actually kill them.

If that's the case then birth certificates can be disqualified in Georgia. There's plenty of other ways that can be used. They'll can revert to blood testing or other means. Nobody needs to be checking genitals.

So you're going to ask every child that competes in sports to conduct a yearly blood test? I can't easily find blood tests for adults for this, but the cheapest one I could find is $65 (Blood Test for Gender: Accuracy and How Early You Can Find Out) assuming that prenatal blood tests would the same as on children. As well, the error rate for this test is 0.5% so of the 60M kids that have these tests administered you're going to have 300,000 kids that are going to have the wrong test result and thus disqualified from participating. Is that something you really want to do? I looked up how much it costs for a kid for fall 2023 registration (Recreational (U5-U8)) and let's say the kid is in U10 Girls, that's going to cost $150. You're suggesting that a parent should spend almost half as much as the registration fee on a sex blood test? You're going to lose some kids who's families are barely getting so that you can enforce this.

You're going to cost American families $65 x 60M = $3.9B in extra charges to simply just participate in sports and in testing those kids you'll have 300,000 kids with incorrect results so that the 100,000 trans kids (300,000 trans kids in the US
(How Many Adults and Youth Identify as Transgender in the United States?) who participate in youth sports (LGBTQ Youth Sports Participation | The Trevor Project) do not. You want to take punitive measures that harm more cisgendered kids than they do trans kids on top of costing American families $3.9B a year. That doesn't sound very small government fiscally conservative to me. Make that make sense to people who aren't in the culture war trenches.

Again, frequency of a crime doesn't make it any less wrong. We know that biological men are competing against women and they're winning in multiple sports. This is reality. They should not be taking achievements away from girls.

Sure it does, I've shown above why no one looking at this impartially would ever logically agree to this.

It doesn't matter if there's 10 or there's 1000. Title IX was created to protect women's and men's sports. When a trans girl takes a scholarship they're literally removing one biological girl and replacing them with another boy. It doesn't just apply to college though, it's across the board with women's sports. It doesn't matter if it's high school, college, pro, amateur. There's nothing preventing these trans girls from competing with boys, that's where they should be competing.

The expenses you're proposing to do would cost more than the 36 scholarships "lost" for college athletes that have ever competed.

 

[Irish#1]

Absolutely is faux outrage because it's something that isn't impacting anyone - aside from the trivial amounts of people that face these athletes. The coverage it's getting by MSM and on social media outpaces it's actual impact by exponential magnitudes and only meant to inflame transphobia.

So it’s okay to offend those trivial amount of athletes for the protection of a much smaller group of Trans competitors?

Women’s sports were created for a specific reason and there’s a reason many states have enacted laws to prevent this.

 

[Blazers46]

Hormone therapy has a lot of long term effects. As a sports governing body I think it’s negligent to require hormone therapy to participate in anything.

 

[ulukinatme]

Can this line of thinking be expanded to any other circumstances? Just curious if you're bringing this line of thinking to any other "injustices" or if it's specifically targeted at trans people. Shoot, I can rifle off a couple quick bullet points of some other issues that impact significantly more children and actually kill them.

Feel free to quit beating around the bush, no need to mince words here.

So you're going to ask every child that competes in sports to conduct a yearly blood test? I can't easily find blood tests for adults for this, but the cheapest one I could find is $65 (Blood Test for Gender: Accuracy and How Early You Can Find Out) assuming that prenatal blood tests would the same as on children. As well, the error rate for this test is 0.5% so of the 60M kids that have these tests administered you're going to have 300,000 kids that are going to have the wrong test result and thus disqualified from participating. Is that something you really want to do? I looked up how much it costs for a kid for fall 2023 registration (Recreational (U5-U8)) and let's say the kid is in U10 Girls, that's going to cost $150. You're suggesting that a parent should spend almost half as much as the registration fee on a sex blood test? You're going to lose some kids who's families are barely getting so that you can enforce this.

You're going to cost American families $65 x 60M = $3.9B in extra charges to simply just participate in sports and in testing those kids you'll have 300,000 kids with incorrect results so that the 100,000 trans kids (300,000 trans kids in the US
(How Many Adults and Youth Identify as Transgender in the United States?) who participate in youth sports (LGBTQ Youth Sports Participation | The Trevor Project) do not. You want to take punitive measures that harm more cisgendered kids than they do trans kids on top of costing American families $3.9B a year. That doesn't sound very small government fiscally conservative to me. Make that make sense to people who aren't in the culture war trenches.

Again you're overthinking this. One blood test is probably all that's needed at each sports level: PeeWee, high school, college. Something could even be done at the state level for a one time deal. I don't know if you have kids in sports, but $65 is pretty much a drop in the bucket these days. I've been spending hundreds on cheerleading each season, and hundreds more on PeeWee football. When you factor in registration, uniforms, physicals, cleats, pads, snacks, venue entry fees, coach gifts, trips, end of year parties, etc a one time blood test would be pretty low on the totem pole.

Sure it does, I've shown above why no one looking at this impartially would ever logically agree to this.

The only thing you've shown is that you're partial to women being treated unfairly so that men can take their accomplishments.

The expenses you're proposing to do would cost more than the 36 scholarships "lost" for college athletes that have ever competed.

Hardly. A number of states don't accept changes to birth certificates without proof of surgery, and again...a one time blood test isn't going to break the bank. Lets be honest here too, if a biological man tries to sneak in to a women's team pre-op they're going to get found out. Even if they're post-op there will be some tell-tale signs that would raise questions. As usual you're making this much harder than it needs to be.

 

[Bishop2b5]

So what's an acceptable number of men pretending to be women in order to compete against actual women? Is it OK if it's 10, but a problem when it reaches 20? How about 50 being OK, but a problem if it's 60? Toronto, what's the number where it's OK and the number where it's not OK and becomes a problem? And when it gets to 20 or 60 or 100 or whatever the problem line is, we all know your type will then say, "Well, you were OK with it at 10 or 50, why are you just now deciding it's a problem?" It's a problem at 1. Just as rape is a problem at 1. Just as assault is a problem at 1. Just as murder or cheating or abuse or any other wrong thing is a problem at 1.

Here's the deal. They aren't women. Period. They're men with a man's skeletal frame and a man's musculature. They have a distinct physical advantage over the vast majority of biological women that is completely antagonistic to the concept of sportsmanship and fairness. That you push it for political reasons without regard to reality, fairness, decency, or the protection of women in sports is disgusting and shameful on your part.

 

[Sea Turtle]

It's so funny that South Park predicted this 15 years ago.

Now we just have to wait for stem cells to grow penises on mice.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Remember when the childless Toronto lectured us parents about overreacting to gays and drag queens trying to gain access to our children in schools and youth programs? You know, he said there was nothing to worry about, we were just being hateful bigots and nobody was actually trying to harm our kids or anything. Yeah. Check this article out. Nothing to worry about. Just overreacting. They don't mean any harm to our kids.

I'm sure they and their apologists will claim it was just a joke. It's as funny and acceptable as a bunch of racists marching through town carrying nooses and chanting about lynching black people. Nobody would accept "We were just kidding" if that happened, and we're not going to here either. This is the face of perversion and degeneracy. Anyone chanting this or defending it needs to have the absolute living hell beaten out of them and be permanently banned from ever being around any child. To a parent, there's not a damn thing funny about this.

Drag marchers spark outrage with ‘we’re coming for your children’ chant at NYC Pride event

The marchers, many wearing flamboyant dresses and clothing, walked through Tompkins Square Park in the East Village Friday night as part of the city’s Pride Month celebrations.

nypost.com

Drag marchers spark outrage with ‘we’re coming for your children’ chant at NYC Pride event​

Story by Patrick Reilly • Yesterday 9:38 PM


LGBTQ activists participating in New York City’s annual Drag March on Friday sparked outrage for chanting “we’re here, we’re queer, we’re coming for your children” in a Manhattan park.
The marchers, many wearing flamboyant dresses and clothing, walked through Tompkins Square Park in the East Village Friday night as part of the city’s Pride Month celebrations.
Video of the march shows people laughing and joining in with the cheeky chant — including one dancing topless woman.
Others can be heard chanting “we’re here, we’re queer, we’re not going shopping.” The festive marchers continued ended their march at the iconic Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Village.
https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/NYPICHPDPICT000013172826.jpg

Drag marchers spark outrage with ‘we’re coming for your children’ chant at NYC Pride event© Provided by New York Post
Drag marchers could be heard chanting “we’re here, we’re queer, we’re coming for your children” in Tompkins Square Park.The controversial chant incensed conservatives, who condemned the marchers as the video spread on social media.
“This movement grooms minors to have mastectomies and castration and fuels a multi billion dollar medical child abuse industry,” Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.) tweeted in response to the clip.

“Pass the Protect Children’s Innocence Act. Let kids be kids,” The conservative firebrand added, referencing a bill in congress that would make it a felony to perform any gender affirming care on a minor.
https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/NYPICHPDPICT000013172822.jpg

Drag marchers spark outrage with ‘we’re coming for your children’ chant at NYC Pride event© Provided by New York Post
The chant infuriated conservatives who accused the community of “grooming.”Timecast News
Attorney Jenna Ellis, who briefly was a member of former President Donald Trump’s legal team, tweeted: “Remember that thing they said they totally are not doing?”
“This is what EVIL looks like….” said conservative podcaster Graham Allen.
Many online users pointed out that the chant was more than likely a joke in response to accusations of pedophilia among the drag community from the right.
https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/NYPICHPDPICT000013172820.jpg

Drag marchers spark outrage with ‘we’re coming for your children’ chant at NYC Pride event© Provided by New York Post
The Drag March went from Tompkins Square Park to the Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Village.Timecast News
“The intention is to provoke,” said one user, who disagreed.
“Sadly – this will continue to determinate the view of the gay community who fought so hard to be accepted. This is not accepted,” another wrote.
New York City will cap off its Pride Month celebrations with its massive annual parade on Sunday to commemorate the 1969 Stonewall Riots — a pivotal moment in the American LGBTQ community’s history.

 

[TorontoGold]

Feel free to quit beating around the bush, no need to mince words here.

School shootings are literally killing kids, and your solution has been turning schools into prisons where it becomes Call of Duty School Edition. Why not take the hardline approach to guns? Why is it that "1 is too many" only applied to sports? What about advocating for having universal background checks? You want every child to submit their blood test results, what about gun owners? Surely you'd want this to happen to assist in reducing shootings, no?

I don't want to turn this into a guns discussion, just wanted to have a good chuckle at the fact that trans kids are catching much more heat than guns which are killing actual kids.

Again you're overthinking this. One blood test is probably all that's needed at each sports level: PeeWee, high school, college. Something could even be done at the state level for a one time deal. I don't know if you have kids in sports, but $65 is pretty much a drop in the bucket these days. I've been spending hundreds on cheerleading each season, and hundreds more on PeeWee football. When you factor in registration, uniforms, physicals, cleats, pads, snacks, venue entry fees, coach gifts, trips, end of year parties, etc a one time blood test would be pretty low on the totem pole.

I don't have kids in sports. I don't know what you do for a living, but I measure financial risk exposure so I'll walk you through how enacting these kind of policies would harm the kids you're trying to "protect".

Your goal is to eliminate having trans kids in sports.

1) Total estimated trans kids in sports is estimated to be 300,000
2) The error rate on the $65 blood tests we've talked about is 0.5%
3) Total kids in organized sports in the US is estimated to be 60M
4) Total "incorrect" tests would be 60M x 0.5% = 300,000.
5) So, by testing each kid you are accepting a risk of ~300,000 kids getting the wrong tests back. This is as high as the total amount of trans kids in sports. You have essentially not done anything to make sports better by having these kids removed. In doing so you have ruined cisgendered kids childhoods as they will always known as "Jake who failed the blood test" no matter what sort of corrective action is taken. Kids are nasty.
6) Let's circle back to the cost - $65 x 60M = $3.9B which would be roughly ~3% of SNAP costs for 2021 (U.S. SNAP: total costs 1969-2021 | Statista) to put it in perspective. A 3% increase to funding to directly help the poorest American families would be overall better for society, no?

So to summarize - we know that there would 300,000 incorrect test results disallowing cisgendered kids from playing or have trans kids sneak through the cracks, and a $3.9B cost for American families. Is that worth it, are you willing to push blood tests knowing that you won't reduce the "errors" from playing in sports and costing American families such a high cost?

The only thing you've shown is that you're partial to women being treated unfairly so that men can take their accomplishments.

Which accomplishments? We've already gone over this. There aren't records being smashed like you had previously stated, that's just not true.

Hardly. A number of states don't accept changes to birth certificates without proof of surgery, and again...a one time blood test isn't going to break the bank. Lets be honest here too, if a biological man tries to sneak in to a women's team pre-op they're going to get found out. Even if they're post-op there will be some tell-tale signs that would raise questions. As usual you're making this much harder than it needs to be.

Which states? I showed what you can do in Texas and Georgia to change your birth certificate and get one reissued without any indication that it is a new one. It would help if you cited your sources so we don't get into another "smashed records" situation where a falsehood is pushed and we find out it's entirely incorrect.

So what's an acceptable number of men pretending to be women in order to compete against actual women? Is it OK if it's 10, but a problem when it reaches 20? How about 50 being OK, but a problem if it's 60? Toronto, what's the number where it's OK and the number where it's not OK and becomes a problem? And when it gets to 20 or 60 or 100 or whatever the problem line is, we all know your type will then say, "Well, you were OK with it at 10 or 50, why are you just now deciding it's a problem?" It's a problem at 1. Just as rape is a problem at 1. Just as assault is a problem at 1. Just as murder or cheating or abuse or any other wrong thing is a problem at 1.

Here's the deal. They aren't women. Period. They're men with a man's skeletal frame and a man's musculature. They have a distinct physical advantage over the vast majority of biological women that is completely antagonistic to the concept of sportsmanship and fairness. That you push it for political reasons without regard to reality, fairness, decency, or the protection of women in sports is disgusting and shameful on your part.

It's these kinds of posts that leads to you getting clowned and laughed at. The lack of any sort of self reflection or awareness is incredible. Please continue these posts, it gives us all a great laugh and everyone enjoys a good bagel bishop freakout.

I simply have said adopting the IOC rules of testosterone suppressing medication for over 1 year that would eliminate any people that are "trans'ing" themselves to compete, which as we know is not something that is happening but it gives many peace of mind.

LOL @ push for political reasons. My reasons for disagreeing with these types of policies has literally nothing to do with trans people at all. I know you and many others don't see them as "valid" so I have used - cisgendered girls harmed by these proposals, the $3.9B cost to parents, and the impact of incorrect test results on children. The only people I see pushing their positions for political reasons are those that want to harm cisgendered kids and cost families unnecessary money.

 

[Blazers46]

I do remember that gay song choir that was “jokingly” singing about coming after children but they said they were joking so it was supposed to be cool…

 

[Irish#1]

School shootings are literally killing kids, and your solution has been turning schools into prisons where it becomes Call of Duty School Edition. Why not take the hardline approach to guns? Why is it that "1 is too many" only applied to sports? What about advocating for having universal background checks? You want every child to submit their blood test results, what about gun owners? Surely you'd want this to happen to assist in reducing shootings, no?





So to summarize - we know that there would 300,000 incorrect test results disallowing cisgendered kids from playing or have trans kids sneak through the cracks, and a $3.9B cost for American families. Is that worth it, are you willing to push blood tests knowing that you won't reduce the "errors" from playing in sports and costing American families such a high cost?

Believe it or not, one can have a more or less stringent belief about one subject over another. It's not an all or nothing proposition.

You were the one that said the student loan forgiveness was a drop in the bucket, but $3.9B isn't worth it? Like ulukinatme, my kids spend a lot of money every year for cheer, travel softball, wrestling, etc. $65 per family wouldn't keep kids from competing.

Did you ever answer my question about adding a trans category? It would be pretty simple to add those to a lot of sports, like swimming, track, and wrestling.

​

 

[TorontoGold]

Believe it or not, one can have a more or less stringent belief about one subject over another. It's not an all or nothing proposition.

You were the one that said the student loan forgiveness was a drop in the bucket, but $3.9B isn't worth it? Like ulukinatme, my kids spend a lot of money every year for cheer, travel softball, wrestling, etc. $65 per family wouldn't keep kids from competing.

Did you ever answer my question about adding a trans category? It would be pretty simple to add those to a lot of sports, like swimming, track, and wrestling.

​

You're allowed to have that, just doesn't give carte blanche for criticism as why one would hold that belief. I'm not sure I'll get an answer, by how would one justify that position

I am the one, that's correct. It's a completely different funding structure as you know. The immediate cash cost doesn't hit the individual families, and there is a tangible benefit to the American economy for debt forgiveness vs a trans test. You're helping exponentially more families with debt forgiveness.

To you question of a trans category, I don't think I answered it. I don't think it makes sense from a financial side as setting up a whole category for 0.5% of the total (math shown above) participants. As well, politically I have a really time foreseeing laws passing in red states that would allow for these kinds categories to be setup. Additionally, I think following the IOC guidelines to be pretty straightforward and take the emotion from both sides out of it - what are your thoughts on that?

1 year on blockers with testosterone at levels below that guideline. This way it weeds out any people trans'ing to just dominate and will remove the advantage that they may have had. Thoughts?

 

[Blazers46]

1 year on blockers with testosterone at levels below that guideline. This way it weeds out any people trans'ing to just dominate and will remove the advantage that they may have had. Thoughts?

My thought is you just made an argument a few pages ago on how being gay is a natural human thing because monkeys love anal sex, what’s natural about using puberty blockers? Do elephants use it?

 

[TorontoGold]

My thought is you just made an argument a few pages ago on how being gay is a natural human thing because monkeys love anal sex, what’s natural about using puberty blockers? Do elephants use it?

Natural as in that it isn't something that is caused by propaganda or some sort of societal push.

If you're going to compare a natural instinct to a medical procedure then we likely aren't going to be able to discuss this. Don't like any animals have developed chemotherapy yet.

 

[Blazers46]

Natural as in that it isn't something that is caused by propaganda or some sort of societal push.

If you're going to compare a natural instinct to a medical procedure then we likely aren't going to be able to discuss this. Don't like any animals have developed chemotherapy yet.

So it’s not natural to be trans. Hater