Culture

Blazers46

Adjectives: wise/brilliant/handsome.
Messages
8,107
Reaction score
5,459
Simply was stating that if someone who's making 30-40K over the median household income can't afford to buy property larger than a 2BR close to their workplace, it's likely a sign that the current gap between utility and wage earnings isn't a good thing and it getting worse will only further errode the upper-middle class. The lower and middle classes are essentially dead at this point.

Having attainable housing is important, if I am in the rental market that means that some family who's making ~90K won't be able to secure the lease because a lessor will never choose the family over the single dude.

Minimum wage at ~37.5 hours a week should be enough to satisfy your basic needs of shelter and food. Currently it does not do that anywhere in North America.

This is why Obama/Joe don't get my support as with the banking crisis Barry essentially let everyone off the hook, and Joe busted up the rail union. They are the corporate donor ruling class.
I’m assuming your area has a high volume dual income families. Which then makes their earning power much greater. Google says dual income families make up around 70% of the households. Naturally you are going to be behind.
 

GATTACA!

It's about to get gross
Messages
15,108
Reaction score
12,945
The point of education is so Jimmy doesn’t have to wash dishes at Red Lobster. I think you are assuming Jimmy loves washing dishes so much that even eduction and further skills training won’t make him change employment. A dishwasher can change jobs… the median age for the food industry is around 23. Jimmy will evolve even if the job doesn’t.
Which is exactly the same as it was in 1972. Get an education and move on to bigger and brighter things.

Now explain why the person coming into fill Jimmy's dish washer spot in 2023 is making 40% less than Jimmy made in 1972.
 

Blazers46

Adjectives: wise/brilliant/handsome.
Messages
8,107
Reaction score
5,459
Which is exactly the same as it was in 1972. Get an education and move on to bigger and brighter things.

Now explain why the person coming into fill Jimmy's dish washer spot in 2023 is making 40% less than Jimmy made in 1972.
Because shit changes and isn’t always the same. The new Jimmy applied for a job and agreed to the compensation. Employment is a free market. Flat screen TVs are drastically cheaper from 20 years ago, Samsung isn’t crying about it.
 

GATTACA!

It's about to get gross
Messages
15,108
Reaction score
12,945
Because shit changes and isn’t always the same. The new Jimmy applied for a job and agreed to the compensation. Employment is a free market. Flat screen TVs are drastically cheaper from 20 years ago, Samsung isn’t crying about it.
Oooooor it could be because companies like Red Lobster aren't going to increase their wages to match inflation unless their arm is twisted into doing so. Especially for easy to replace shit jobs like dish washing.

Having clean dishes at a restaurant isn't 40% less valuable than it was back then. Getting those dishes clean isn't 40% easier. It's a greedy company doing everything they can to squeeze every penny of profit they can out of their business.
 

TorontoGold

Mr. Dumb Moron
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
5,716
I’m assuming your area has a high volume dual income families. Which then makes their earning power much greater. Google says dual income families make up around 70% of the households. Naturally you are going to be behind.

Median household income of $96.7K. I am comfortably higher than that. If someone like myself is in the rental pool, that squeezes out the middle class.

If large cities in North America are unfordable for the large majority of people this is going to be terrible for everyone. Sure, some people can move to live in other places - for the lower/middle class this isn't possible.
 

Blazers46

Adjectives: wise/brilliant/handsome.
Messages
8,107
Reaction score
5,459
Oooooor it could be because companies like Red Lobster aren't going to increase their wages to match inflation unless their arm is twisted into doing so. Especially for easy to replace shit jobs like dish washing.

Having clean dishes at a restaurant isn't 40% less valuable than it was back then. Getting those dishes clean isn't 40% easier. It's a greedy company doing everything they can to squeeze every penny of profit they can out of their business.
Maybe it was 40% less valuable and the market just adjusted more recently… seeing how people still wash dishes for the given wage. In anything, something is worth what someone is willing to pay and/or receive. Basically the definition of value.

I’ll add…. why is it on the company to match inflation? Even in the 90s when I worked in the food industry the dishwasher was a 16 year old in the evening and summer or someone that could meet the requirement for mentally handicap and needed something to do, occasionally it was a felon trying to establish work history. It’s beyond me that we have gotten to a place where a dishwasher at Red Lobster is the argument to increase the min wage.
 
Last edited:

Blazers46

Adjectives: wise/brilliant/handsome.
Messages
8,107
Reaction score
5,459

Median household income of $96.7K. I am comfortably higher than that. If someone like myself is in the rental pool, that squeezes out the middle class.

If large cities in North America are unfordable for the large majority of people this is going to be terrible for everyone. Sure, some people can move to live in other places - for the lower/middle class this isn't possible.
Maybe you should advocate for subsized housing so you and others can live within your means.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,120
Which is exactly the same as it was in 1972. Get an education and move on to bigger and brighter things.

Now explain why the person coming into fill Jimmy's dish washer spot in 2023 is making 40% less than Jimmy made in 1972.
The minimum wage in the US in 1972 was $1.60. Average rent that year was about $120 a month, meaning that a worker could work 75 hours a month and make rent and have roughly $136 left over (before taxes) to pay for food and other necessities. Adjusted for inflation, the cost of rent should be $540. It’s at least twice that much in most states on average — $1100. That means on average a worker would have to work 152 hours a month (before taxes) and have just over $57 left over to pay for food and life necessities. You couldn’t feed one person for that even if they ate only Top Ramen for every meal. And you wouldn’t be able to cook it because you could not afford the utility bills (the average cost of utility bills [which used to be included in the rent] is more than $200, putting the average minimum wage renter well into the red just for basic survival.

If minimum wage would have kept pace with PRODUCTIVITY since the 1970s, it would be more than $20 an hour. This is important because this is the floor for compensation which affects all wages. If minimum wage was $20, the lowest paid workers would make, conservatively, $3200 a month or $38,000 a year. That’s instead of $13,000.

Adjusted for inflation, $1.60 is worth $11.98 today, $4.73 an hour more than it is today. The real insult is that American workers are nearly twice as productive as they were in 1972 and are compensated at a lower adjusted rate than they would have in a vacuum of equal productivity.

 

TorontoGold

Mr. Dumb Moron
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
5,716
Maybe you should advocate for subsized housing so you and others can live within your means.
I do? I advocate for higher density housing all the time. I live well. This isn't about me, this is about advocating about those that are less fortunate, nobody should care about anecdotal personal stories and I'm not asking for people to care about me.

If the only way for people to own property is to get married to someone else that's making >100K as well that should be ringing alarm bells.

Poor people have always been shit on and largely left to die forever, with the widening gap between utility provided by workers and wages earned we're going to have more have nots. I prefer we discontinue corporate socialism and bootlicking the corporate overlords that are so gracious to provide such tremendous jobs. Mom and Pops.......well, I don't lose sleep over them closing down shop. If you can't afford to pay staff and fill vacancies then maybe you shouldn't own a business or maybe that business isn't a profitable venture.
 

Blazers46

Adjectives: wise/brilliant/handsome.
Messages
8,107
Reaction score
5,459
The minimum wage in the US in 1972 was $1.60. Average rent that year was about $120 a month, meaning that a worker could work 75 hours a month and make rent and have roughly $136 left over (before taxes) to pay for food and other necessities. Adjusted for inflation, the cost of rent should be $540. It’s at least twice that much in most states on average — $1100. That means on average a worker would have to work 152 hours a month (before taxes) and have just over $57 left over to pay for food and life necessities. You couldn’t feed one person for that even if they ate only Top Ramen for every meal. And you wouldn’t be able to cook it because you could not afford the utility bills (the average cost of utility bills [which used to be included in the rent] is more than $200, putting the average minimum wage renter well into the red just for basic survival.

If minimum wage would have kept pace with PRODUCTIVITY since the 1970s, it would be more than $20 an hour. This is important because this is the floor for compensation which affects all wages. If minimum wage was $20, the lowest paid workers would make, conservatively, $3200 a month or $38,000 a year. That’s instead of $13,000.

Adjusted for inflation, $1.60 is worth $11.98 today, $4.73 an hour more than it is today. The real insult is that American workers are nearly twice as productive as they were in 1972 and are compensated at a lower adjusted rate than they would have in a vacuum of equal productivity.

What makes the American worker more productive? Are we just smarter people or has technology advances allowed the worker to work at a higher productive rate?
 

Blazers46

Adjectives: wise/brilliant/handsome.
Messages
8,107
Reaction score
5,459
I do? I advocate for higher density housing all the time. I live well. This isn't about me, this is about advocating about those that are less fortunate, nobody should care about anecdotal personal stories and I'm not asking for people to care about me.

If the only way for people to own property is to get married to someone else that's making >100K as well that should be ringing alarm bells.

Poor people have always been shit on and largely left to die forever, with the widening gap between utility provided by workers and wages earned we're going to have more have nots. I prefer we discontinue corporate socialism and bootlicking the corporate overlords that are so gracious to provide such tremendous jobs. Mom and Pops.......well, I don't lose sleep over them closing down shop. If you can't afford to pay staff and fill vacancies then maybe you shouldn't own a business or maybe that business isn't a profitable venture.
I disagree. I think dual incomes has pushed the market to where it is. Somewhere people started to realize a dual income is better than a single income and more families started doing which then lead to a gambit of supply/demand issues with housing. More income drives the price up.

I also disagree that poor people are shit on. I would make the argument that poor people tend to shit themselves.
 

GATTACA!

It's about to get gross
Messages
15,108
Reaction score
12,945
Maybe it was 40% less valuable and the market just adjusted more recently… seeing how people still wash dishes for the given wage. In anything, something is worth what someone is willing to pay and/or receive. Basically the definition of value.

I’ll add…. why is it on the company to match inflation? Even in the 90s when I worked in the food industry the dishwasher was a 16 year old in the evening and summer or someone that could meet the requirement for mentally handicap and needed something to do, occasionally it was a felon trying to establish work history. It’s beyond me that we have gotten to a place where a dishwasher at Red Lobster is the argument to increase the min wage.
Who else would it be on??? Holy shit dude lol.

The 16 year old mentally handicapped person working at a fast food place is the minimum. That's the lowest possible wage someone should be making in our society. Who else would you base the minimum wage on??
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,120
What makes the American worker more productive? Are we just smarter people or has technology advances allowed the worker to work at a higher productive rate?
Technology should make our lives easier, not harder.
 

GATTACA!

It's about to get gross
Messages
15,108
Reaction score
12,945
I disagree. I think dual incomes has pushed the market to where it is. Somewhere people started to realize a dual income is better than a single income and more families started doing which then lead to a gambit of supply/demand issues with housing. More income drives the price up.

I also disagree that poor people are shit on. I would make the argument that poor people tend to shit themselves.
Dual incomes are a response to stagnate wages. My wife would love to stay home and take care of our daughter. I would love that too. Us surviving on one income is completely untenable, even though we both have 4 year degrees, work full time, and live below our means.

Gee I wonder why birthrates are dropping? Maybe because people can't afford to have kids. Not even with 2 incomes.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,120
I disagree. I think dual incomes has pushed the market to where it is. Somewhere people started to realize a dual income is better than a single income and more families started doing which then lead to a gambit of supply/demand issues with housing. More income drives the price up.

I also disagree that poor people are shit on. I would make the argument that poor people tend to shit themselves.
Greed drives prices up. If capitalism is the metric on which you measure everything, you turn human beings into commodities. Being poor is the most expensive way to live and its desperation and exploitation that makes capitalism go.
 

Blazers46

Adjectives: wise/brilliant/handsome.
Messages
8,107
Reaction score
5,459
Who else would it be on??? Holy shit dude lol.

The 16 year old mentally handicapped person working at a fast food place is the minimum. That's the lowest possible wage someone should be making in our society. Who else would you base the minimum wage on??
So you are advocating for 16 year old dishwashers to be paid $15 to $20 an hour? That is dumb.
 

GATTACA!

It's about to get gross
Messages
15,108
Reaction score
12,945
So you are advocating for 16 year old dishwashers to be paid $15 to $20 an hour? That is dumb.
It's not dumb. It's the same exact thing they were being paid in the 70s. Just like they should have been making $5.40 in the 90s when you were working in fast food instead of $3.80.

The number gives people sticker shock because we've let the problem drag out for so long the gap to close is now gigantic. If we had just been adjusting this number every year or every 5 years we'd be in a much better spot right now as a society.
 

TorontoGold

Mr. Dumb Moron
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
5,716
I disagree. I think dual incomes has pushed the market to where it is. Somewhere people started to realize a dual income is better than a single income and more families started doing which then lead to a gambit of supply/demand issues with housing. More income drives the price up.

I also disagree that poor people are shit on. I would make the argument that poor people tend to shit themselves.

You disagree with what? Of course having more money available will lead to price increases.

Housing is so fucked up because of two reasons
1) NIMBY-ism : Having people in places that refuse, deny, or argue for trivial things instead of developing that property into medium/high density housing has killed a lot of North American cities for affordability. I went to district meeting (similar to county) and people in my area wanted to preserve a large parking lot over have a condo development be built. The were worried about missing out on the $30 daily parking. That's insanity.

2) Treating home ownership as investment vehicles. Any time there is a profit motive it's going to lead to people getting the short end of the stick. I don't poo-poo anyone that invests in real estate (I do myself, personally) because it's not up to the individual citizen, but the government to ensure protections are in place. If you let private equity to buy peoples mortgage debt obviously it's going to be driven by profit and people are going to get screwed. I legit just worked on a due diligence report for a mortgage debt fund and they have KPI's that are driven on "conversion" of turning over mortgages so they can take ownership and redevelop the property. That is so screwed up to think about.
 

Blazers46

Adjectives: wise/brilliant/handsome.
Messages
8,107
Reaction score
5,459
Technology should make our lives easier, not harder.
It makes our lives easier, but sadly it makes our lives less valuable if that technology makes us less valuable. Prime example is the self check out.
 

Blazers46

Adjectives: wise/brilliant/handsome.
Messages
8,107
Reaction score
5,459
You disagree with what? Of course having more money available will lead to price increases.

Housing is so fucked up because of two reasons
1) NIMBY-ism : Having people in places that refuse, deny, or argue for trivial things instead of developing that property into medium/high density housing has killed a lot of North American cities for affordability. I went to district meeting (similar to county) and people in my area wanted to preserve a large parking lot over have a condo development be built. The were worried about missing out on the $30 daily parking. That's insanity.

2) Treating home ownership as investment vehicles. Any time there is a profit motive it's going to lead to people getting the short end of the stick. I don't poo-poo anyone that invests in real estate (I do myself, personally) because it's not up to the individual citizen, but the government to ensure protections are in place. If you let private equity to buy peoples mortgage debt obviously it's going to be driven by profit and people are going to get screwed. I legit just worked on a due diligence report for a mortgage debt fund and they have KPI's that are driven on "conversion" of turning over mortgages so they can take ownership and redevelop the property. That is so screwed up to think about.
I am disagreeing with your premise that a single person making less than $100,000 having to either get married or get into a cohabitant situation to afford a home should be raising alarm bells. If the majority of home buyers and renters are dual income families they will naturally have more money which will naturally raise the prices of buying or renting a home. I owned a few homes in my 20s that I could never have otherwise afforded if not married. I am not surprised at all have a single person making less than $100,000 has trouble affording property they deem suitable. But I know many single people who buy homes and then rent out the extra rooms that essentially pay their own mortgage and then some. I know many people in their 20s and 30s who still live with roommates and some even with their parents because it just makes better economical sense and I would probably do the same if I were single. Culturally we have this expectation that once we turn 18 we need to live on our own, if we just swallowed our pride a little people could live within their means without a spouse or a cohabitant.
 

TorontoGold

Mr. Dumb Moron
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
5,716
I am disagreeing with your premise that a single person making less than $100,000 having to either get married or get into a cohabitant situation to afford a home should be raising alarm bells. If the majority of home buyers and renters are dual income families they will naturally have more money which will naturally raise the prices of buying or renting a home. I owned a few homes in my 20s that I could never have otherwise afforded if not married. I am not surprised at all have a single person making less than $100,000 has trouble affording property they deem suitable. But I know many single people who buy homes and then rent out the extra rooms that essentially pay their own mortgage and then some. I know many people in their 20s and 30s who still live with roommates and some even with their parents because it just makes better economical sense and I would probably do the same if I were single. Culturally we have this expectation that once we turn 18 we need to live on our own, if we just swallowed our pride a little people could live within their means without a spouse or a cohabitant.

Ok let me put this clearer for you - I, a single person, that is 29 years old, making between $130-150K depending on comp structure can not afford to buy a property bigger than 1,000 square feet. That should be concerning. Why? Because single parents out there are struggling mightily that don't make nearly that much.

To your cultural point, I wonder where people got the expectation they should own something when they enter the "real world". Could it be from the generation that was able to "work their way up" at a factory with little education own a white picket fence house with two cars and a stay at home spouse that now lectures every other generation about "hard work" and "bringing value"? The same generation that saw the industrial expansion that lead to them receiving incredible benefits that then used it in a way to enrich themselves while not bringing up those that followed them and each subsequent generation getting less of a benefit? Boy, it's starting to seem like the entitled ones aren't the young ones....

Some grey hairs telling my generation about how hard they worked rings on deaf ears. A large large majority of their success came from timing and luck. (FTR - I know you're not a boomer)
 

Blazers46

Adjectives: wise/brilliant/handsome.
Messages
8,107
Reaction score
5,459
Greed drives prices up. If capitalism is the metric on which you measure everything, you turn human beings into commodities. Being poor is the most expensive way to live and its desperation and exploitation that makes capitalism go.
When you hire someone they become a commodity. For example if I invest in technology and that tech has positive outcomes for my business I invest more money but look for ways to invest smart. Like when a purchasing agent buys toilet paper they try to find the best price for that same item to get that particular job done. If I buy something at wholesale for $30 and can sell it for $100 and sell a lot I am going to invest in that item but if I can find that item for $20 somewhere else I am going to buy it for $20. Same with labor. If I buy labor for $15 an hour but then I figure out I can get that same labor for $10 then I’m going to spend $10. Anyone that has ever paid a payroll knows this. If you haven’t ever paid a payroll you have no clue and just see employers as “the man” screwing everyone. The moment you realize labor is a commodity you either live with that idea or find something else to do to make money.
 

Blazers46

Adjectives: wise/brilliant/handsome.
Messages
8,107
Reaction score
5,459
Ok let me put this clearer for you - I, a single person, that is 29 years old, making between $130-150K depending on comp structure can not afford to buy a property bigger than 1,000 square feet. That should be concerning. Why? Because single parents out there are struggling mightily that don't make nearly that much.

To your cultural point, I wonder where people got the expectation they should own something when they enter the "real world". Could it be from the generation that was able to "work their way up" at a factory with little education own a white picket fence house with two cars and a stay at home spouse that now lectures every other generation about "hard work" and "bringing value"? The same generation that saw the industrial expansion that lead to them receiving incredible benefits that then used it in a way to enrich themselves while not bringing up those that followed them and each subsequent generation getting less of a benefit? Boy, it's starting to seem like the entitled ones aren't the young ones....

Some grey hairs telling my generation about how hard they worked rings on deaf ears. A large large majority of their success came from timing and luck. (FTR - I know you're not a boomer)
I preach work smarter, not harder. Working hard is for dummies. I preach to my kids all day to find a way to make as much money as you can in the least amount of hours you can. I make a great sum in just passive income. I’m a capitalist that owns property and probably helps drive up the price of real estate but I make a lot doing it. I worked to get here and lost a lot of money and made a lot of stupid mistakes but I have LEARNED and now make a great sum so my wife and probably even my children won’t have to work if they chose not to. I work 30 hours per for a company now because it pays well enough to get me off my ass and it’s only 30 hours a week that I choose to work.
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,627
Reaction score
2,732
It is not irony that wages have spiked post Covid making minimum wage pretty irrelevant in most places and we have inflation. Artificially inflate wages and you will inflate the price of goods and services which crushes the poor and middle class the hardest who have the least discretionary income to deal with it.

LOL at Toronto whining about not affording housing in his Canadian socialist wonderland.
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,627
Reaction score
2,732
I preach work smarter, not harder. Working hard is for dummies. I preach to my kids all day to find a way to make as much money as you can in the least amount of hours you can. I make a great sum in just passive income. I’m a capitalist that owns property and probably helps drive up the price of real estate but I make a lot doing it. I worked to get here and lost a lot of money and made a lot of stupid mistakes but I have LEARNED and now make a great sum so my wife and probably even my children won’t have to work if they chose not to. I work 30 hours per for a company now because it pays well enough to get me off my ass and it’s only 30 hours a week that I choose to work.

All you folks thinking you are getting ahead counting your 40 hour (37.5 in metric) work week away and find busting your hump 50-60 hours a week unconscionable are going to whine forever. I did my MBA working full time with my first born arriving halfway through the program and renovating our first house that probably wasn't to your overworked and underpaid standards. Roll up your sleeves and make it happen cap'n.

The American Dream is alive and well. Upward mobility is alive and well. Huge swaths of those in poverty earn their way out of it. Show up on time and sober, pick up a side hustle (easier than ever) and live within your means.
 

GATTACA!

It's about to get gross
Messages
15,108
Reaction score
12,945
When you hire someone they become a commodity. For example if I invest in technology and that tech has positive outcomes for my business I invest more money but look for ways to invest smart. Like when a purchasing agent buys toilet paper they try to find the best price for that same item to get that particular job done. If I buy something at wholesale for $30 and can sell it for $100 and sell a lot I am going to invest in that item but if I can find that item for $20 somewhere else I am going to buy it for $20. Same with labor. If I buy labor for $15 an hour but then I figure out I can get that same labor for $10 then I’m going to spend $10. Anyone that has ever paid a payroll knows this. If you haven’t ever paid a payroll you have no clue and just see employers as “the man” screwing everyone. The moment you realize labor is a commodity you either live with that idea or find something else to do to make money.
Of course. Most business owners will try and keep wages as low as they can. Like I said it's a race to the bottom. This is exactly why mandatory minimum wage increases are needed. The line of thinking you just laid out is why labor is continually devalued.
 

GATTACA!

It's about to get gross
Messages
15,108
Reaction score
12,945
All you folks thinking you are getting ahead counting your 40 hour (37.5 in metric) work week away and find busting your hump 50-60 hours a week unconscionable are going to whine forever. I did my MBA working full time with my first born arriving halfway through the program and renovating our first house that probably wasn't to your overworked and underpaid standards. Roll up your sleeves and make it happen cap'n.

The American Dream is alive and well. Upward mobility is alive and well. Huge swaths of those in poverty earn their way out of it. Show up on time and sober, pick up a side hustle (easier than ever) and live within your means.
God damn you're such a badass. Lazy poors just don't get it.
 

TorontoGold

Mr. Dumb Moron
Messages
7,367
Reaction score
5,716
I preach work smarter, not harder. Working hard is for dummies. I preach to my kids all day to find a way to make as much money as you can in the least amount of hours you can. I make a great sum in just passive income. I’m a capitalist that owns property and probably helps drive up the price of real estate but I make a lot doing it. I worked to get here and lost a lot of money and made a lot of stupid mistakes but I have LEARNED and now make a great sum so my wife and probably even my children won’t have to work if they chose not to. I work 30 hours per for a company now because it pays well enough to get me off my ass and it’s only 30 hours a week that I choose to work.

Good, as you should. If the system is there for you, it would be heinous to not take advantage of it.

It is not irony that wages have spiked post Covid making minimum wage pretty irrelevant in most places and we have inflation. Artificially inflate wages and you will inflate the price of goods and services which crushes the poor and middle class the hardest who have the least discretionary income to deal with it.

LOL at Toronto whining about not affording housing in his Canadian socialist wonderland.

LOL @ socialist wonderland. Literally nothing socialist about Toronto.

All you folks thinking you are getting ahead counting your 40 hour (37.5 in metric) work week away and find busting your hump 50-60 hours a week unconscionable are going to whine forever. I did my MBA working full time with my first born arriving halfway through the program and renovating our first house that probably wasn't to your overworked and underpaid standards. Roll up your sleeves and make it happen cap'n.

The American Dream is alive and well. Upward mobility is alive and well. Huge swaths of those in poverty earn their way out of it. Show up on time and sober, pick up a side hustle (easier than ever) and live within your means.

No one here is arguing or whining about their own personal situation. If you want to live in Opioidville Ohio then sure you can likely find a place for $400k and live that "American dream" but for the rest of society it's not a real thing anymore.
 
Top