COVID-19

[ndfanatic78]

So do you go to the pharmacy and tell them to pull the cold medication products off the shelves? Surely they shouldn't pushing medications when you get better treatment from being well hydrated and rested. OR can someone take these supplements as well as getting vaccinated.

Switzerland absolutely did not ban or stop vaccinations lmao. Like not even close. They aren't actively recommending it because their population isn't being taken advantage of snake oil salesmen.

Party lines! Brother, Fauci/Trump both actively pushed the vaccine and I am thankful for their work on getting it out. Look at the politicians around the world 99% of them are vaccinated!

I don't know why a certain medication wasn't pushed. I trust my family doctor, and I encourage you to do the same. Gummibear95829 on substack probably doesn't have your best interest at heart.

Oh well, antivaxxers provide a necessary role in society. Mortician's were getting hit hard with life expectancy improvements.

(For a guy who very much wants people to be left alone in regards to vaccines you sure do post a lot about the grave dangers and such.)

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I do trust my doctor and he told me to take a zinc, vitamin D, and magnesium supplement and not to get the vaccine because it was experimental and it wasn’t worth any possible unknown issues that could arise since I wasnt at high risk of death. I am very thankful for his guidance and feel horrible for the doctors that lost their licenses for giving similar recommendations or questioning the validity of using a vaccine rushed to the public using a brand new technology and pushed on the entire public not just those at high risk.

 

[sixstar]

So do you go to the pharmacy and tell them to pull the cold medication products off the shelves?

this is a bad example. you are talking about removing medications from circulation. what happened is that public health pushed a single, epitope-specific treatment above all else and - as i said - ignored and defamed non-epitope specific treatments that could have - at minimum - provided additional layers of defense.

neglect or incompetence? i'm not sure.

Switzerland absolutely did not ban or stop vaccinations lmao. Like not even close.

slow down vortex, i didn't say the swiss "banned" the vax. stay in your lane.

They aren't actively recommending it because their population isn't being taken advantage of snake oil salesmen.

emotional hyperbole, invalid statement.

Oh well, antivaxxers provide a necessary role in society. Mortician's were getting hit hard with life expectancy improvements.

the data disagrees with you. but we have already established that you are an accountant who doesn't want to look at the COVID mortality data by age-stratified vax status.

(For a guy who very much wants people to be left alone in regards to vaccines you sure do post a lot about the grave dangers and such.)

i want informed consent, not government mandates. and if the government won't properly inform citizens, then i'll do my best to spread the word in my small social circles.

 

[TorontoGold]

this is a bad example. you are talking about removing medications from circulation. what happened is that public health pushed a single, epitope-specific treatment above all else and - as i said - ignored and defamed non-epitope specific treatments that could have - at minimum - provided additional layers of defense.

neglect or incompetence? i'm not sure.



slow down vortex, i didn't say the swiss "banned" the vax. stay in your lane.



emotional hyperbole, invalid statement.



the data disagrees with you. but we have already established that you are an accountant who doesn't want to look at the COVID mortality data by age-stratified vax status.



i want informed consent, not government mandates. and if the government won't properly inform citizens, then i'll do my best to spread the word in my small social circles.

You're arguing against the use of a vaccine when there are "more effective" treatments. Hoe is that not different than arguing against cold medication because hydration is more important?

You're right, I said "which country stopped vaccinations" you said Switzerland. Which as we know is not true. So, no, there isn't a country that's stopped or advocated against them.

Literally anyone with any sort of financial sway laughs at the unvaccinated. Either they see you as an easy mark to grift from or as a complete buffoon. Since you brought up my profession I'll share an anecdote - I have a client who started two new funds that held American Healthcare and American insurance companies. It wasn't because of all the "new ideas" that were being brought forward by the substack crew. Poor health sells.

You didn't get the vaccine correct? You weren't thrown down on a table? You still have all the same rights as before? The pity party grievance tour is worn out and the greatest hits are stale. One of the great non partisan bridges is universally laughing at those who thought vaccines caused autism and that there is a big government conspiracy where each country in the world is coordinating together (remember that means Russia US Cuba and Norway agreeing to hide everything).

You're free to go nuts on this, and every time I see your posts I'm disappointed we haven't yet seen the grand conspiracy uncovered. Trust me would love to have another reason to hate corrupt governments.

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[sixstar]

You're arguing against the use of a vaccine when there are "more effective" treatments. Hoe is that not different than arguing against cold medication because hydration is more important?

is this a serious question? lol
the vortex spins.

You're right, I said "which country stopped vaccinations" you said Switzerland. Which as we know is not true. So, no, there isn't a country that's stopped or advocated against them.

Sure there are. Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland all halted adolescent vaccinations. There are probably others, but those immediately come to mind.

Literally anyone with any sort of financial sway laughs at the unvaccinated. Either they see you as an easy mark to grift from or as a complete buffoon.

Spin vortex spin. This is purely unsubstantiated opinion. But it is quite telling to see you claim intellectual superiority because you put some shots in your arm without even looking at or understanding the data.

Answer this simple question: what is the range of Absolute Risk Reduction in mortality of vaxxed individuals < 60 years of age? As an easy mark and buffoon, I can show you the answer, but you won't like it.

You didn't get the vaccine correct? You weren't thrown down on a table? You still have all the same rights as before? The pity party grievance tour is worn out and the greatest hits are stale.

I was denied entry into restaurants in DC, but it's not about me - it's about others. And this is where we differ. Injustice is wrong - even if it doesn't impact you.

I had dozens of friends in government and healthcare who lost jobs. There are numerous news stories around the globe of people being denied medical procedures because of their vax status. Polls and articles - that I posted in this thread - advocated for unvaxxed parents to lose custody of their children. Don't gaslight - people suffered at the hands of vax mandates. The fact that you continue to deny this is shameful. And the fact that things have returned to normal doesn't magically fix all the wrongs. People suffered, but you don't care because you didn't. Got it.

Are you going to claim that the holocaust pity party grievance tour is worn out too since Jews have standard citizen rights now?

One of the great non partisan bridges is universally laughing at those who thought vaccines caused autism and that there is a big government conspiracy where each country in the world is coordinating together (remember that means Russia US Cuba and Norway agreeing to hide everything).

You're free to go nuts on this, and every time I see your posts I'm disappointed we haven't yet seen the grand conspiracy uncovered. Trust me would love to have another reason to hate corrupt governments.

Funny, I used to think the government could do no wrong too. I've never been lumped in with conspiracy theorists until this COVID talk. I've posted ample data and facts backing my points. You haven't refuted the data, you've only mocked me for not trusting government messaging. A data driven professional who doesn't want to look at the data. That's rich.

 

[TorontoGold]

is this a serious question? lol
the vortex spins.


Sure there are. Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland all halted adolescent vaccinations. There are probably others, but those immediately come to mind.


Spin vortex spin. This is purely unsubstantiated opinion. But it is quite telling to see you claim intellectual superiority because you put some shots in your arm without even looking at or understanding the data.

Answer this simple question: what is the range of Absolute Risk Reduction in mortality of vaxxed individuals < 60 years of age? As an easy mark and buffoon, I can show you the answer, but you won't like it.


I was denied entry into restaurants in DC, but it's not about me - it's about others. And this is where we differ. Injustice is wrong - even if it doesn't impact you.

I had dozens of friends in government and healthcare who lost jobs. There are numerous news stories around the globe of people being denied medical procedures because of their vax status. Polls and articles - that I posted in this thread - advocated for unvaxxed parents to lose custody of their children. Don't gaslight - people suffered at the hands of vax mandates. The fact that you continue to deny this is shameful. And the fact that things have returned to normal doesn't magically fix all the wrongs. People suffered, but you don't care because you didn't. Got it.

Are you going to claim that the holocaust pity party grievance tour is worn out too since Jews have standard citizen rights now?



Funny, I used to think the government could do no wrong too. I've never been lumped in with conspiracy theorists until this COVID talk. I've posted ample data and facts backing my points. You haven't refuted the data, you've only mocked me for not trusting government messaging. A data driven professional who doesn't want to look at the data. That's rich.

Sweden - New recommendations for vaccination against COVID-19 - The Public Health Agency of Sweden

18–49 years​

For people aged 18–49 years, there is no recommendation for a booster dose. As of 1 March 2023, the recommendation that members of this group should receive three doses of basic vaccination has been discontinued. One dose is available to members of this group during the period 1 March 2023–29 February 2024, regardless of the previous number of doses received. This dose may be advisable for those who live close to an elderly person or people in a risk group, for example.

• Time interval for vaccination: at least 9 months since the last dose.

Basic vaccination with 3 doses will remain available.

Oops, that seems different than "halted"

Denmark - Vaccination against covid-19

Who will be offered vaccination against covid-19?​

People aged 50 years and over will be offered vaccination.

Weird, doesn't seem like Denmark is "halting" either. Strange.

Finland - Getting vaccinated against COVID-19: how, why and when? - THL

The COVID-19 vaccine is offered in Finland to all who are 12 years old and above and want to take the vaccine. Additionally, vaccinations are offered to children under the age of 12 based on individual consideration.

Yikes! That's what? 0-3?


Here's data I shared with you already....from a place that is close to me - https://www.publichealthontario.ca/...nfirmed-cases-post-vaccination.pdf?sc_lang=en

Oh, and now anti-vaxxers suffered even an iota of what jews did in holocaust? Yeah, that's kind of a credibility destroyer. Comparing it to the holocaust because you didn't want to get a vaccine. L-O-L. I don't give a shit if some moron wasn't able to go into Denny's because they chose to be a contrarian idiot. They should be shamed for being so stupid. Just like anyone that gets a DUI.

 

[sixstar]

slow down vortex. you missed something important:

Sure there are. Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland all halted adolescent vaccinations.

Here's data I shared with you already....from a place that is close to me - https://www.publichealthontario.ca/...nfirmed-cases-post-vaccination.pdf?sc_lang=en

First, this is not raw data. It's not transparent. We've had discussions about data vs. data products. I'll use it anyway since you like this data product.

Second, like I said:

Answer this simple question: what is the range of Absolute Risk Reduction in mortality of vaxxed individuals < 60 years of age?

from your link, the RRR of the vax vs. mortality for ages under 50: 0.
the RRR for ages under 60: 0 for 2-series, 0.02/100k for boosted.

Now, what's the ARR? effectively zero. Glad we agree.



What about RRR and ARR for hospitalizations under age 60?
Effectively zero. Oh.

Oh, and now anti-vaxxers suffered even an iota of what jews did in holocaust? Yeah, that's kind of a credibility destroyer. Comparing it to the holocaust because you didn't want to get a vaccine. L-O-L.

slow down vortex. this is your logic: because it happened in the past, it doesn't matter.
i'm not equivocating magnitude, i'm extending your logic. don't vortex this.
this is why people make fun of you.

I don't give a shit if some moron wasn't able to go into Denny's because they chose to be a contrarian idiot.

Stop dodging and downplaying.

People lost jobs. Do you care if someone lost their job? Yes or no?
People were denied access to healthcare. Do you care if someone was denied a surgery that they needed? Yes or no?
Public polls showed dems in favor of forcing unvaxxed parents to lose custody of their kids. Do you care if someone lost custody of kids because they didn't get a shot? Yes or no?

because they chose to be a contrarian idiot.

practicing your right for medical choice against mainstream advice is now contrarian idiocy? spin vortex spin.

Now answer this: using the data you provided, given that the shot doesn't stop the spread (despite what your government and MSM promised you) and that it is only supposed to provide protection against severity and death, what is the logical argument to force vaccinations on those under 60 years of age based on the data products that you provided? Give me a factual, logical, data-based argument.

They should be shamed for being so stupid. Just like anyone that gets a DUI.

What is the ARR for reduced mortality for those under 60?
What is the percentage of the working force under 60?
Do you see the problem with this venn diagram?
Are math and data stupid to you, accountant guy?

 

[TorontoGold]

slow down vortex. you missed something important:





First, this is not raw data. It's not transparent. We've had discussions about data vs. data products. I'll use it anyway since you like this data product.

Second, like I said:


from your link, the RRR of the vax vs. mortality for ages under 50: 0.
the RRR for ages under 60: 0 for 2-series, 0.02/100k for boosted.

Now, what's the ARR? effectively zero. Glad we agree.

View attachment 3053361

What about RRR and ARR for hospitalizations under age 60?
Effectively zero. Oh.
View attachment 3053362



slow down vortex. this is your logic: because it happened in the past, it doesn't matter.
i'm not equivocating magnitude, i'm extending your logic. don't vortex this.
this is why people make fun of you.


Stop dodging and downplaying.

People lost jobs. Do you care if someone lost their job? Yes or no?
People were denied access to healthcare. Do you care if someone was denied a surgery that they needed? Yes or no?
Public polls showed dems in favor of forcing unvaxxed parents to lose custody of their kids. Do you care if someone lost custody of kids because they didn't get a shot? Yes or no?


practicing your right for medical choice against mainstream advice is now contrarian idiocy? spin vortex spin.

Now answer this: using the data you provided, given that the shot doesn't stop the spread (despite what your government and MSM promised you) and that it is only supposed to provide protection against severity and death, what is the logical argument to force vaccinations on those under 60 years of age based on the data products that you provided? Give me a factual, logical, data-based argument.


What is the ARR for reduced mortality for those under 60?
What is the percentage of the working force under 60?
Do you see the problem with this venn diagram?
Are math and data stupid to you, accountant guy?

This discussion is really not relevant.

From Sweden - vaccinations being available is not halting! If someone walks into a clinic in Sweden they can get a vaccination!

18–49 years​

For people aged 18–49 years, there is no recommendation for a booster dose. As of 1 March 2023, the recommendation that members of this group should receive three doses of basic vaccination has been discontinued. One dose is available to members of this group during the period 1 March 2023–29 February 2024, regardless of the previous number of doses received. This dose may be advisable for those who live close to an elderly person or people in a risk group, for example.

• Time interval for vaccination: at least 9 months since the last dose.

Basic vaccination with 3 doses will remain available.

Hospitalizations are much worse lol, I don't know about you but any time I can reduce my relative risk in any area by 5.5 times by doing something that takes 15 min. I do that every time.

I don't give a shit if some moron lost their job. Boohoo. Just like I don't care if someone with a DUI lost their job. Denied access to healthcare? I don't know if that's true or not, Perth could probably shed light on that. Remember when you said I was the one towing party lines, yet here you are adding "dems supported xyz".....interesting. The far left used to be the group where antvaxers found their home so I don't care if those morons also had a tough 3 months.

Oh right it was me that compared the holocaust to anti-vaxxers. Got it. If I am being made fun of by antivaxxer and short sexually frustrated balding old man then I will sleep soundly.

Yeah if you are following the advice of people on substack or any other platform that have been publicly destroyed by their professional body then yes you are a contrarian idiot. It's like if I started to take advice from Arthur Anderson on audit procedures.

As someone who relies on staff being healthy and available to work I should hope they reduce their risk exposure by easily available procedures. Just like how for all elementary school children there are mandatory vaccinations a kid should take so they don't miss school.

Go tell your boss you're willing to increase the companies risk exposure by 5.5 times when you could take 15 min to complete a simple task. You would be fired on the spot.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Go tell your boss you're willing to increase the companies risk exposure by 5.5 times when you could take 15 min to complete a simple task. You would be fired on the spot.

LOL at the absurdity.

So for not taking an experimental shot that decreases the hospitalization rate from 1 in 900,000 to 1 in 5 million, they should be fired on the spot? Yeah OK, that seems totally reasona.... insane. 5.5 times sounds so menacing until you actually are talking about the real number of hospitalizations.

 

[sixstar]

This discussion is really not relevant.

From Sweden - vaccinations being available is not halting! If someone walks into a clinic in Sweden they can get a vaccination!

do you know what adolescent means? Serious question.

Hospitalizations are much worse lol, I don't know about you but any time I can reduce my relative risk in any area by 5.5 times by doing something that takes 15 min. I do that every time.

You can reduce relative risk of getting hospitalized by a lightning strike by 100x if you wear a rubber suit every day. Suit up. Your words, not mine.

Do you understand the difference between ARR and RRR? Serious question.
The ARR for any shot benefit under 60 is effectively zero. Zero.

also - wait till you see the ARR and RRR of IVM. Open wide.

I don't give a shit if some moron lost their job. Boohoo. Just like I don't care if someone with a DUI lost their job.

I agree that you don't care because it didn't affect you. We have established that you lack compassion for those who disagree with you.
Also, false equivalence to DUI since DUI endangers the lives of others.

Denied access to healthcare? I don't know if that's true or not, Perth could probably shed light on that.

Denied access to medical procedures*. It's true. I don't post unsubstantiated statements. Go ahead and look it up.

Remember when you said I was the one towing party lines, yet here you are adding "dems supported xyz".....interesting. The far left used to be the group where antvaxers found their home so I don't care if those morons also had a tough 3 months.

It's a fact. And I already made a post about it in this thread:

I didn't forget, and I hope you all don't forget either.

From January 2022, just 9 months ago:

Nearly half of Dems say fines, prison time appropriate for questioning vaccines, poll says

WASHINGTON (TND) — A majority of Democrats support punitive and restrictive policies against the unvaccinated, according to the results of a new poll. A recent national telephone and online survey from The Heartland Institute and Rasmussen Reports says respondents who claimed to be Democrats...

katv.com

Oh right it was me that compared the holocaust to anti-vaxxers. Got it.

Slow down vortex. You claimed it doesn't matter because it's in the past. Again, I'm not comparing magnitude, but you are diverting attention from the point because you realize how ridiculous it sounds. Divert, deny, disrupt, vortex.

If I am being made fun of by antivaxxer and short sexually frustrated balding old man then I will sleep soundly.

you sound emotionally compromised. calm down and debate with logic.

Yeah if you are following the advice of people on substack or any other platform that have been publicly destroyed by their professional body then yes you are a contrarian idiot. It's like if I started to take advice from Arthur Anderson on audit procedures.

Can you link me to the substacks of these medical researchers please?

As someone who relies on staff being healthy and available to work I should hope they reduce their risk exposure by easily available procedures. Just like how for all elementary school children there are mandatory vaccinations a kid should take so they don't miss school.

But the COVID shot doesn't stop transmission. It doesn't prevent infection. It doesn't even provide medical benefit for people under 60. That's what the data says.

So please explain to me how it's logical to implement a vax mandate in a cohort that doesn't benefit from the vax?

Go tell your boss you're willing to increase the companies risk exposure by 5.5 times when you could take 15 min to complete a simple task. You would be fired on the spot.

i am the boss, and i let my employees make their own choices without providing justification. medical choice in america, crazy.

 

[sixstar]

LOL at the absurdity.

So for not taking an experimental shot that decreases the hospitalization rate from 1 in 900,000 to 1 in 5 million, they should be fired on the spot? Yeah OK, that seems totally reasona.... insane. 5.5 times sounds so menacing until you actually are talking about the real number of hospitalizations.

either he is arguing in bad faith or he truly does not understand ARR. we've been over this multiple times.

 

[PerthDomer]

either he is arguing in bad faith or he truly does not understand ARR. we've been over this multiple times.

The rate of hospitalization for adolescents is not 1 in a million. That would imply under 100 hospitalized across the country for the entire pandemic. Pre delta I took care of more than 10 in a tertiary pediatric ICU in Seattle. The ward took care of more covid pts than the ICU. Mortality rates for covid are higher than the flu in adolescents (pre omicron for kids over 3 or so).

The ICU rule of thumb for COVID was mortality on the vent about equal to patients age. So for every dead 50 year old there was a patient who survived the vent. 4 survivors to one dead in 20 year olds. It's safe to say multiply dead pediatric parents by 5 to estimate the number of intubated kids.

In terms of medical care withheld. The only case where you'll get different levels of care outside of a crisis situation (think early covid triage) is organ transplant. Transplanted organs are a scarce resource (there's a wait list) and you have to meet a number of parameters to get an organ. One is get every vaccine you can, to include COVID. The reason they do that is unvaccinated transplants die at a higher rate. It's the same reason we make alcoholics quit drinking to get a liver transplant.

 

[TorontoGold]

LOL at the absurdity.

So for not taking an experimental shot that decreases the hospitalization rate from 1 in 900,000 to 1 in 5 million, they should be fired on the spot? Yeah OK, that seems totally reasona.... insane. 5.5 times sounds so menacing until you actually are talking about the real number of hospitalizations.

He compared it to my profession so I used an example to highlight it. If something is 5.5x riskier and I don't protect my firm from exposure of that event, then yes I should be fired. If I went against best practices because I followed the advice of old Arthur Anderson partners that lead to an increase of risk by 5.5x that is brain dead idiocy.

Billions of shots have been administered, at what point does it become not "experimental". Prevailing logic states that negative side effects of vaccines become apparent soon after they are administered.

I do like that you take issue with me saying 5.5x is bad, and not from the comparison of the holocaust to wearing a mask or a vax mandate. Sound reasoning LOL.

 

[ab2cmiller]

He compared it to my profession so I used an example to highlight it. If something is 5.5x riskier and I don't protect my firm from exposure of that event, then yes I should be fired. If I went against best practices because I followed the advice of old Arthur Anderson partners that lead to an increase of risk by 5.5x that is brain dead idiocy.

Billions of shots have been administered, at what point does it become not "experimental". Prevailing logic states that negative side effects of vaccines become apparent soon after they are administered.

I do like that you take issue with me saying 5.5x is bad, and not from the comparison of the holocaust to wearing a mask or a vax mandate. Sound reasoning LOL.

So just to be clear. You are 100% for mandates? If those mandates are not complied with, those "morons" should be fired by their employer?

 

[PerthDomer]

The site is garbage? You are emotionally compromised. Now ask yourself why you are so resistant to admitting that there are RCTs showing consistent benefit in Vit-D.

Here are all the RCTs, with aggregates limited to only the RCTs. The site provides full links to each study. See those bars? Those are the primary outcomes for each study with CIs, on a study-by-study basis. Please tell me why the site is garbage.

View attachment 3053354

Now, tell me specifically why Bychinin is an invalid DB RCT. How about Domazet? Singh?

You can find the source for each study on the site, but you already knew that.

You are arguing in bad faith by focusing on the aggregation rather than on the studies themselves. You are discounting studies based on an aggregation site rather than reading and critiquing the studies on their own merit.



Yet you, as a doctor, published terrible arguments in your previous post. Why is it that a non-med professional like me can easily call out your supposedly trained eye?

• You claimed that ICU usage of vitamin D stopped based on a single narrowly-scoped study.
• You said the site is garbage even though you provided two studies listed on the site, one of which was the most extreme outlier in the table. That would be fine, if you would recognize the other studies with contradicting outcomes. But you didn't.
  • Further, FYSA WRT Murai: the study showed 49% worse outcomes in mortality with Vit-D, but it wasn't statistically significant due to the low number of events (p=0.43). However, the study showed 48% statistically significant (p =0.09) improvement for ventilation.
  • Mariana's primary outcome (mortality) was not statistically significant either (p=0.45), but you had no issues posting that. Why?
• You posted a third study in your argument that only looked a single high dosage, when that same author published two studies on the benefit of bolus Vit-D.

Don't try to play credentialism trump card with me. Let's debate on the merit of data and facts.



Crazy how it shows benefit for COVID though, huh?

To understand why that site is garbage let's cover a few issues in their study selection.

1. Not all studies are created equal.

-Most of their cited studies are quite small. That implies the studies are not powered to detect most outcomes. Let's think about COVID. Even for at risk 65 year olds with hypertension and diabetes (plus mild obesity), admission risk is going to be around 10%. Let's say you expect a 20% effect size. That would mean you need enough patients to clearly see an 8% admission rate vs a 10% rate. That implies hundreds of patients in each group (control and experimental). The vast majority of these experiments were under 100 total patients.

-the amalgamated results this site claims is 80% plus reduction in risk of hospitalization/death. That should make you immediately skeptical. We really don't see that for any intervention in medicine besides antibiotics/antivirals and vaccines. Also, if you had that effect size it should replicate easily, especially in big studies. I'll explain below why I think they're getting that result.

-Two statistical terms are p value and power. They mean different things. Power means the percent chance that if there is a difference between an intervention and control arm that you will find it. When studies justify why they enrolled as many patients as they did, they will usually say we estimate this effect size and this baseline level of disease/death/intubation. They then do calculations to say we need to enroll X number of patients to have an 80% chance to see this impact if it's there.

When scientists say something is significant they'll usually say p<0.05. That means there's less than a 5% chance you got a positive result by chance.

This leads to a term called p hacking. There's always a small chance you'll get an effect due to random chance. You can put your fingers on the scale a number of ways.

Publication bias is the fact that positive results sell better. So if an experiment is done a bunch, and most results are negative, only the people getting positive results tend to publish.

Another is that people who don't pre register (the vast majority of these studies) often enroll 10 patients and look for a difference... they don't see one. They look again at 15... no dice... they look at 20... Eureka! P=0.04.

2.

Then you look at the comparisons of experimental vs. Many show striking clinical differences in their control vs experimental arm (clearly healthy pts get vit D, unhealthy are control). This is again why metanalyses that get published usually have rigorous selection criteria. There are just bad studies out there.

3. Location of study/quality of journal. If I see a big study come out of India I'm generally not going to act on it (even outside of covid) there are a few reasons for this.

-Quality of research/incentives to publish. You just see more fraud, doctoring of results. Etc. In places outside of the US/Europe.

-Patient differences. The average patient in India/Iran/Africa just has different stuff going on. They're more likely to be malnourished/not have access to doctors or meds, exposure to different diseases/different genetics. One example of this is that we see clear evidence breast feeding is helpful in African babies but not American ones (the studies are mixed). The water supply in Africa isn't reliably clean, and formula there isn't reliable as well, so formula fed babies get dysentery more often. Not the case in a 1st world country. You can see similar dynamics in 1st world countries.

-We don't ignore studies outside of the US! Researchers can operate more easily (looser ethics laws, cheaper to run a study) so often times preliminary studies or proof of concept stuff is done there and then another trial gets done here.

-My sense is journals were operating with this in mind. A lot of these studies were published in D list journals. Keep in mind early in Covid anything with the word covid in it got published. Positive results in reasonably performed studies should have ended up in much higher quality journals. Many of these studies were likely passed up for poor quality

4. In doing their compilation. It looks like they compiled different study outcomes. Some studies looked at mortality. Some looked at hospitalization. Some looked at viral load. It appears they took whatever the most significant result was if each study and threw them in the mix. Some studies are even labeled as positive, but when you read them they aren't (vitamin D looks better without significant difference).

Part of medical training is learning to read studies and decide if they look valid or suspicious. This website sets off an alarm on the BS meter in every way.


-

 

[PerthDomer]

the data that toronto posted covers the last 100 days.

UKHSA reported raw data showing adolescent hospitalization rates with (not from) COVID around 2-6/100k during peak COVID.


where did you get that data? can you link me please?


how many kids did you see die from COVID?


are there studies showing organ transplant deaths as a function of COVID vax status? or as a function of mRNA uptake?

plenty of news articles over the past few years of doctors refusing to treat unvaccinated patients. too many to list.



and this is why you are the vortex. you knowingly twist words to deflect and deceive.

Trends in COVID-19 Mortality Among Solid Organ Transplant... : Transplantation

An abstract is unavailable.

journals.lww.com

This details some of the research. Early in the pandemic, COVID was the #1 cause of mortality among transplant patients. Vaccine efficacy depends on level of immunosuppression. The best vaccine responses come if you get it pre transplant (off immunosuppressive drugs). Many of these patients just don't mount an antibody response, but do seem to retain T cell immunity. So you're better off vaccinated than not.

For pediatric mortality I'll share this. We saw mortality greater than a normal flu season for kids in both the delta and omicron waves.

Moat pediatric covid deaths occurred after conversion to the delta variant. Here are the CDC numbers from pandemic start to now.

Provisional COVID-19 Deaths: Focus on Ages 0-18 Years | Data | Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

data.cdc.gov

About 1700 dead kids. During a normal flu season 200 kids die a year on average (some will call this an over or under estimate). In January 2022 alone 150 kids died of Omicron with many more deaths outside of that month.

Redirect Notice

The difference in age distribution is that flu does almost all of its killing in under 4 year old kids and COVID is worse in teens.

Personally I moved from Seattle to a smaller unit just before delta. I know a few adolescents went on ecmo and one died in the summer of 2022 there (and we had an unusually high vaccination rate for teens). A few overflow adults in their 20s died right after I left as well. The COVID kids I took care of before that all thankfully lived, Though a few were close calls.

The other interesting thing we see is infabts who have had covid in the last few months, RSV tends to be more severe. One of my coworkers had a few kids with RSV have pulmonary hemorrhage and die on intubation (I've never seen/heard of that in a normal kid w RSV). It does seem like COVID makes other viruses more potent in kids in the months after recovery. That's not unexpected because we see that with other viruses as well (it's how most of us get pneumonia. A virus weakens your immune system and lung bacteria take off).

 

[ACamp1900]

The rate of hospitalization for adolescents is not 1 in a million. That would imply under 100 hospitalized across the country for the entire pandemic. Pre delta I took care of more than 10 in a tertiary pediatric ICU in Seattle. The ward took care of more covid pts than the ICU. Mortality rates for covid are higher than the flu in adolescents (pre omicron for kids over 3 or so).

I’m def not engaging in any of the back and forth here,… frankly a lot from both sides is redundant and getting past the point of TL/DR. So please don’t take anything in this as any attempt to add on to the current climate here. I’m honestly just curious about one thing and I’ll explain why:

I’m curious, what was your experience like during the height of the pandemic with overflow and strain?? I’ve shared before how I ran the student services for one of the top ten nursing schools in the country in the years leading up to COVID. During the peak of it all I saw a news report with two of the hospitals we would send our graduates to as being cited as examples of hospitals being overrun and people dying in the hallways (one was the hospital of my birth coincidentally). I knew two former students who were placed in each and reached out on social media to see if they were ok. Both, from different cohorts who did not know each other, told me that report was laughable, their hospital was furloughing staff bc no one would come except in extreme cases due to fear of Covid. Now, that’s just two random examples but it definitely stuck out to me…. I still have no idea what to actually think about that whole deal. So I’m just curious,… What were your experiences like?

 

[PerthDomer]

I’m def not engaging in any of the back and forth here,… frankly a lot from both sides is redundant and getting past the point of TL/DR. So please don’t take anything in this as any attempt to add on to the current climate here. I’m honestly just curious about one thing and I’ll explain why:

I’m curious, what was your experience like during the height of the pandemic with overflow and strain?? I’ve shared before how I ran the student services for one of the top ten nursing schools in the country in the years leading up to COVID. During the peak of it all I saw a news report with two of the hospitals we would send our graduates to as being cited as examples of hospitals being overrun and people dying in the hallways (one was the hospital of my birth coincidentally). I knew two former students who were placed in each and reached out on social media to see if they were ok. Both, from different cohorts who did not know each other, told me that report was laughable, their hospital was furloughing staff bc no one would come except in extreme cases due to fear of Covid. Now, that’s just two random examples but it definitely stuck out to me…. I still have no idea what to actually think about that whole deal. So I’m just curious,… What were your experiences like?

I was in Seattle which took the lock down seriously. At a children's hospital for most of the pandemic we were pretty empty. It turns out that most bacterial disease (pneumonia/sepsis) is caused by a virus leading to the bacterial infection. Lockdowns killed the circulation of all the other viruses. Parents watched their kids really closely, so failed suicides/overdoses/drownings went down too.

We had a handful of covid patients pre lockdown, but didn't see more until the summer. Pre lockdown we moved a few adult non covid patients over to help them make room, but we avoided crisis.

In the summer a small city/farm town had an outbreak. Their covid load overloaded the adult hospitals in Seattle so we absorbed some teen/low 20 year old respiratory COVID patients.

The adult centers were strapped for ECMO beds so we often took sick transports in their 20s (usually bad myocarditis). To help them maintain capacity.

In the spring of 2021 after vaccines were released but before young adults could get vaccinated people started hitting the bars and the adult hospitals got overwhelmed by 20 to 40 year olds so we took overflow but it wasn't awful.

Right after I left and delta hit along with RSV everyone was overwhelmed.

People I knew in the South or NYC early had very different experiences.

But anywhere you went hospitals alternated between less patients than normal with sudden overflow. COVID had peaks and troughs, it didn't give constant business.

I'd also say the pediateic experience was night and day different than adult medicine. I heard a joke from another pediatric ICU fellow that we were fighting WW2 by holding down the garrison in North Africa while the rest of the army was fighting at D day.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

I’m def not engaging in any of the back and forth here,… frankly a lot from both sides is redundant and getting past the point of TL/DR. So please don’t take anything in this as any attempt to add on to the current climate here. I’m honestly just curious about one thing and I’ll explain why:

I’m curious, what was your experience like during the height of the pandemic with overflow and strain?? I’ve shared before how I ran the student services for one of the top ten nursing schools in the country in the years leading up to COVID. During the peak of it all I saw a news report with two of the hospitals we would send our graduates to as being cited as examples of hospitals being overrun and people dying in the hallways (one was the hospital of my birth coincidentally). I knew two former students who were placed in each and reached out on social media to see if they were ok. Both, from different cohorts who did not know each other, told me that report was laughable, their hospital was furloughing staff bc no one would come except in extreme cases due to fear of Covid. Now, that’s just two random examples but it definitely stuck out to me…. I still have no idea what to actually think about that whole deal. So I’m just curious,… What were your experiences like?

I’m in your camp (no pun intended). This is similar to the gun & abortion debates in that neither side will ever convince the other that their side is the right side. Eventually it comes down to each person basking in the self-satisfaction of feeling superior as they each present the ultimate trump card that is soon presented by the other side w/ an alternate trump card.

That said, I wonder what %age of the US population is continuing w/ the boosters? TBH, I have lost track on what number we are at w/ boosters. I had the vaccine + one booster but felt no need to get anything since…especially after experiencing COVID myself late last year.

 

[ACamp1900]

I’m in your camp (no pun intended). This is similar to the gun & abortion debates in that neither side will ever convince the other that their side is the right side. Eventually it comes down to each person basking in the self-satisfaction of feeling superior as they each present the ultimate trump card that is soon presented by the other side w/ an alternate trump card.

That said, I wonder what %age of the US population is continuing w/ the boosters? TBH, I have lost track on what number we are at w/ boosters. I had the vaccine + one booster but felt no need to get anything since…especially after experiencing COVID myself late last year.

same and same... first shot, one booster. If I could go back, I'd not get anything,... at least that is me point in time of this post.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

same and same... first shot, one booster. If I could go back, I'd not get anything,... at least that is me point in time of this post.

Happy I got the vaccine given the knowns at the time. I got the vaccine and had 2 boosters but I won't be getting anymore until we see some abomination of a strain that hits hard. Of course, I'm 40, 3 kids, work from home most of the time but I do spend a few weeks onsite at my hospital system so my last booster was at the prompting of my employer. I also tested positive for COVID twice but both times were unremarkable.

My father who didn't get the vaccine fared very poorly for nearly a month. He slept away 2 weeks and we started to develop internal panic because he was so exhausted. Lost 12-14 lbs in that time frame (and my dad very much enjoys his food) but he finally pulled out. We've since had the discussion that the vaccine would've likely lessened the blow but he's not very receptive to the idea because how could we know definitively? Rather than trying to explain why my confidence is largely based in science but that I allow space for the unknowns or misinterpreted, I just say we can't know anything definitively and move on.

I'm fairly certain this has set the stage for an incredible reduction of human life if we get a seriously big hitter circulating in the next decade. The mistrust developed for good and bad reasons basically ensures that we'll see similar machinations when we have something far more deadly and it'll be too late to change the outcome once it becomes apparent. 🦠💉🔬

 

[PerthDomer]

Happy I got the vaccine given the knowns at the time. I got the vaccine and had 2 boosters but I won't be getting anymore until we see some abomination of a strain that hits hard. Of course, I'm 40, 3 kids, work from home most of the time but I do spend a few weeks onsite at my hospital system so my last booster was at the prompting of my employer. I also tested positive for COVID twice but both times were unremarkable.

My father who didn't get the vaccine fared very poorly for nearly a month. He slept away 2 weeks and we started to develop internal panic because he was so exhausted. Lost 12-14 lbs in that time frame (and my dad very much enjoys his food) but he finally pulled out. We've since had the discussion that the vaccine would've likely lessened the blow but he's not very receptive to the idea because how could we know definitively? Rather than trying to explain why my confidence is largely based in science but that I allow space for the unknowns or misinterpreted, I just say we can't know anything definitively and move on.

I'm fairly certain this has set the stage for an incredible reduction of human life if we get a seriously big hitter circulating in the next decade. The mistrust developed for good and bad reasons basically ensures that we'll see similar machinations when we have something far more deadly and it'll be too late to change the outcome once it becomes apparent. 🦠💉🔬

A few things on booster science. It looks like for COVID, 3 shots should be considered the primary series. People with 3 show more robust T cell responses (implying a wider range of variants to be protected against) than 2. Once you go past 3 shots all it seems you do is induce more antibodies, which is helpful but only short term.

The bivalent booster seems like it might provide broader protection, but that's not 100% clear (we see people getting it doing better but don't have enough data to see I'd that's just transient antibody protection).

Right now, boosters after 3 are recommended in over 65 and high risk people, which makes sense. It's available to everyone if they want it. I'm in health care, so I got it to reduce the chance I call out sick (and selfishly miss a vacation to Hawaii).

Given how robust T cell immunity is, the likelihood we get a variant that totally evades vaccine/natural immunity is low. We might see a bad season, but it's hard to see a covid variant returning us to March 2020 or even the delta variant summer. Scientists have found SARS exposure provides T cell protection vs COVID and they're totally different species.

I'm more worried covid mixes with some other coronavirus in an animal and helps start a whole new pandemic, in which case boosters would be out of the question (you'd need a whole new vaccine).

 

[GATTACA!]

Happy I got the vaccine given the knowns at the time. I got the vaccine and had 2 boosters but I won't be getting anymore until we see some abomination of a strain that hits hard. Of course, I'm 40, 3 kids, work from home most of the time but I do spend a few weeks onsite at my hospital system so my last booster was at the prompting of my employer. I also tested positive for COVID twice but both times were unremarkable.

My father who didn't get the vaccine fared very poorly for nearly a month. He slept away 2 weeks and we started to develop internal panic because he was so exhausted. Lost 12-14 lbs in that time frame (and my dad very much enjoys his food) but he finally pulled out. We've since had the discussion that the vaccine would've likely lessened the blow but he's not very receptive to the idea because how could we know definitively? Rather than trying to explain why my confidence is largely based in science but that I allow space for the unknowns or misinterpreted, I just say we can't know anything definitively and move on.

I'm fairly certain this has set the stage for an incredible reduction of human life if we get a seriously big hitter circulating in the next decade. The mistrust developed for good and bad reasons basically ensures that we'll see similar machinations when we have something far more deadly and it'll be too late to change the outcome once it becomes apparent. 🦠💉🔬

My wife was pregnant when the Covid vaccines started coming out. Her doc recommended we wait until the baby came to get the vaccine because it hadn’t been fully tested on pregnant women at the time and also because getting the shot after the baby came would give us the best protection for her. Well we ended up both getting Covid anyways. It really sucked. Hit my wife harder than me.

Fast forward to after getting the shot and I ended up getting Covid again. Way way less severe that time. I wouldn’t have even thought I had it that time if we hadn’t taken tests because my wife was exposed at work.

 

[PerthDomer]

My wife was pregnant when the Covid vaccines started coming out. Her doc recommended we wait until the baby came to get the vaccine because it hadn’t been fully tested on pregnant women at the time and also because getting the shot after the baby came would give us the best protection for her. Well we ended up both getting Covid anyways. It really sucked. Hit my wife harder than me.

Fast forward to after getting the shot and I ended up getting Covid again. Way way less severe that time. I wouldn’t have even thought I had it that time if we hadn’t taken tests because my wife was exposed at work.

Now that we have the data it appears that waiting to test on pregnant women was a big mistake. Vaccines had no negative impacts, and the alpha/delta variants hit pregnant women really hard.

It looks like the guidelines may move to a covid booster in the 3rd trimester of pregnancy regardless of prior immunization status.

 

[GATTACA!]

Now that we have the data it appears that waiting to test on pregnant women was a big mistake. Vaccines had no negative impacts, and the alpha/delta variants hit pregnant women really hard.

It looks like the guidelines may move to a covid booster in the 3rd trimester of pregnancy regardless of prior immunization status.

In retrospect we definitely should have gotten it while she was pregnant. She didn't feel right for months. Couldn’t stop coughing.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

A few things on booster science. It looks like for COVID, 3 shots should be considered the primary series. People with 3 show more robust T cell responses (implying a wider range of variants to be protected against) than 2. Once you go past 3 shots all it seems you do is induce more antibodies, which is helpful but only short term.

The bivalent booster seems like it might provide broader protection, but that's not 100% clear (we see people getting it doing better but don't have enough data to see I'd that's just transient antibody protection).

Right now, boosters after 3 are recommended in over 65 and high risk people, which makes sense. It's available to everyone if they want it. I'm in health care, so I got it to reduce the chance I call out sick (and selfishly miss a vacation to Hawaii).

Given how robust T cell immunity is, the likelihood we get a variant that totally evades vaccine/natural immunity is low. We might see a bad season, but it's hard to see a covid variant returning us to March 2020 or even the delta variant summer. Scientists have found SARS exposure provides T cell protection vs COVID and they're totally different species.

I'm more worried covid mixes with some other coronavirus in an animal and helps start a whole new pandemic, in which case boosters would be out of the question (you'd need a whole new vaccine).

Any updates on Evusheld? My wife has some autoimmune conditions and enrolled in the trial where she has zero side effects & didn’t get COVID. As an RN she was advised to eventually get the COVID vaccine b/c the trialists couldn’t guarantee long-term protection. She got it knowing it would throw equilibrium out of whack…and it did…but she didn’t seem to incur any long-term effects so we are thankful. That said, I was hoping Evusheld would get full FDA approval but haven’t heard a thing.

 

[PerthDomer]

Any updates on Evusheld? My wife has some autoimmune conditions and enrolled in the trial where she has zero side effects & didn’t get COVID. As an RN she was advised to eventually get the COVID vaccine b/c the trialists couldn’t guarantee long-term protection. She got it knowing it would throw equilibrium out of whack…and it did…but she didn’t seem to incur any long-term effects so we are thankful. That said, I was hoping Evusheld would get full FDA approval but haven’t heard a thing.

It's not authorized because the variants have adapted around it. Basically any monoclonal antibody is going to be much more narrow than vaccine induced antibodies. If the virus mutates it'll get around MABs eventually. Every time the virus adapts it's back to the drawing board for new MAB development.

Latest FDA Updates for Evusheld

Latest information and updates about Evusheld for PrEP for COVID-19

www.fda.gov

 

[sixstar]

Would love to hear thoughts on this...

In February 2021, Moderna scientists published results from the Phase 2 trial of the company’s mRNA Covid jab in the journal Vaccine.
In the “Highlights” section at the top of the paper, Moderna’s scientists reported:

No serious adverse effects were observed.

That statement was untrue. At the time that they published the paper, 7 of the 400 (1.75%) who received the shot had a serious adverse event - including 3 miscarriages. There were zero serious adverse events in the placebo arm.



By the time Moderna stopped collecting safety data from the trial in mid-2021, 14 out of 550 (2.5%) people who received jabs in the trial had suffered serious side effects.

The company never updated the Vaccine paper with any of these reports. On December 30, 2022 the federal clinicaltrials.gov Website quietly posted final safety data from P201, including all the serious adverse event reports.


Here's another interesting study that looked at using the Moderna shot in conjunction with the flu vaccine. The study created 3 groups of ~100 people each:

1. Moderna shot + flu shot
2. flu shot only
3. Moderna shot only

0 out of 92 serious adverse events in the flu shot only category.
5 out of 204 (2.5%) serious adverse events categories 1 and 3 combined (commonality: Moderna shot)

 

[sixstar]

A FOIA out of Lanarkshire, Scotland has revealed that number and rates of miscarriages and neonatal deaths increased substantially in 2022, despite fewer pregnancies.

Miscarriage rate 2018: 23.2% [raw #: 1,011 out of 4354]
Miscarriage rate 2019: 24.1% [raw #: 1,060 out of 4407]
Miscarriage rate 2020: 25.4% [raw #: 1,021 out of 4025]
Miscarriage rate 2021: 26.5% [raw #: 1,083 out of 4088]
Miscarriage rate 2022: 51.2% [raw #: 2,065 out of 4028]

Neonatal death vs. live birth rate 2018: 0.14% [raw #: 6]
Neonatal death vs. live birth rate 2019: 0.14% [raw #: 6]
Neonatal death vs. live birth rate 2020: 0.12% [raw #: 5]
Neonatal death vs. live birth rate 2021: 0.23% [raw #: 10]
Neonatal death vs. live birth rate 2022: 0.39% [raw #: 16]

Since some on this board like to use RRR vs. ARR, that's a 2.21x higher miscarriage rate and a 2.79x higher in neonatal death rate vs. 2018.

Link: Maternity statistics Wilkens March.doc

It would be interesting to see if increase is being reported in other areas as well.

 

[TorontoGold]

Risk of preterm birth, small for gestational age at birth, and stillbirth after covid-19 vaccination during pregnancy: population based retrospective cohort study

Objective To assess the risk of preterm birth, small for gestational age at birth, and stillbirth after covid-19 vaccination during pregnancy. Design Population based retrospective cohort study. Setting Ontario, Canada, 1 May to 31 December 2021. Participants All liveborn and stillborn...

www.bmj.com

Number of live and stillbirths among infants born in Ontario, by COVID-19 Vaccination Status

www.bornontario.ca

 

[sixstar]

Would you like to address Moderna's study in the previous post?

I didn't claim that the increase was vax related. I simply posted the data. Who is to say that the increase isn't COVID related? I agree - not enough information there. But it's a warning signal with a temporal correlation to vax uptake (which was not observed with pre-vax COVID).

Secondly, you are posting a study funded by the same Canadian government that implemented vax passports? lol ok.
What if a Canadian government funded study discovered that vaccinated pregnancy outcomes were worse? What do you think might happen since that same government implemented vax passports and widely promoted vax uptake? Think before you answer.

The study you posted doesn't include pre-pregnancy vax, it doesn't include miscarriage endpoints, and it doesn't provide neonatal death info - which would be nearly mutually exclusive to the data I posted. Did you read the explanation and the referenced studies about why they didn't include miscarriages? Doubt it. And does that bother you? Doubt it - you have already made your mind up. Also, would you like to provide a better explanation behind the reasoning behind excluding births < 500g?