Offensive Line Thread

[NDMIA]

I’ve already posted the recruiting rankings for the roster of OLine and it shows ND basically has a top 3 recruited talent at OLine in the country. I think Alabama and Georgia would be the only teams coming in higher for team composite rankings of just OLinemen. The talent is there. Even for the lower ranked guys, what’s going on? John Dirksen is 6’5” 305lbs and has been on campus 3yrs and 3months. How can a guy that size not even be a mention? I know he’s had some injuries to work through but it’s just wild how bad the development has been. If you’re not starting you’re essentially getting worse or staying the same. I put out a long post about how Jeff Quinn grinded on the trail, wasn’t afraid to go after the very best and really did a remarkable job there. The bottom line though is this isn’t good enough from a coaching perspective. I understand Hiestand mailed in the 2018 class which is hurting us this year more than any but Quinn Carroll, Andrew Kristofic and Zeke Correll are almost at 3 years at ND. You can’t get Zeke Correll over 300lbs and stronger after 3 years? You can’t make Kristofic’s feet any lighter and quicker in 3 years? You can’t get Carroll to recover from his ACL injury that happened over 2 years ago (that’s a long time dude)? Recruiting is going to start suffering if you see the failures in development and reps and everything that LuckyLucci mentioned because this is not a good look. If Hiestand were here I don’t think this happens and you’d probably have Carroll, Kristofic, Correll, Patterson and Lugg all ready to take the reigns once their numbers are called as the oldest highest recruited dudes remaining. I think if we don’t see improvements this season then that’ll spell the end for Quinn and it’ll be super important for BK to make a big hire at OLine. Maybe call up Brent Key at GT and see what it takes to get him up here

 

[Sea Turtle]

Everything I have heard about Carroll is that he just hasn't developed athletically and does not move well enough to play D1 football. Sadly, Baker might end up in that same category when all is said and done. I know a lot of people who were super high on both coming in, and it's kind of shocking that Carroll isn't even in the conversation at guard right now.

Kristofic is allegedly "fine" but isn't super big, athletic, doesn't have long arms, etc. so he projects as an interior player and isn't better than the guys currently playing.

I've heard good things about Fisher, Spindler, Alt... so starting next season I think you will have some growing pains but at least 3 very competent NFL-future players on the line. Correll will likely be OK as center (even though he was a disaster at center last year), which means you just have to find an RG or get a transfer. I wouldn't be shocked to see one of the tackles slide in to RG. But I think we're a full two years away from a line that is of the caliber we have come to expect.

You shouldn't have to have three future NFL caliber players on your OL for it to perform well.

That's just ridiculous for a coach. Should ND have NFL talent? Sure. But to have to have them to function? Ridiculous.

 

[IRISHMAN]

ND should ask Iowa how to develop OL, they seem to know what the heck their doing.

 

[IrishLax]

What rotation? There hasn't been one, yet.

Yes, if he was here, I think he'd have gotten in a rotation with Correll at this point.

 

[RDU Irish]

Very disconcerting that the starters were predominantly not participating in the spring yet with 100% of the coaching going to back ups none are ready to contribute on an even serviceable level.

 

[Crazy Balki]

I’ve already posted the recruiting rankings for the roster of OLine and it shows ND basically has a top 3 recruited talent at OLine in the country. I think Alabama and Georgia would be the only teams coming in higher for team composite rankings of just OLinemen. The talent is there. Even for the lower ranked guys, what’s going on? John Dirksen is 6’5” 305lbs and has been on campus 3yrs and 3months. How can a guy that size not even be a mention? I know he’s had some injuries to work through but it’s just wild how bad the development has been. If you’re not starting you’re essentially getting worse or staying the same. I put out a long post about how Jeff Quinn grinded on the trail, wasn’t afraid to go after the very best and really did a remarkable job there. The bottom line though is this isn’t good enough from a coaching perspective. I understand Hiestand mailed in the 2018 class which is hurting us this year more than any but Quinn Carroll, Andrew Kristofic and Zeke Correll are almost at 3 years at ND. You can’t get Zeke Correll over 300lbs and stronger after 3 years? You can’t make Kristofic’s feet any lighter and quicker in 3 years? You can’t get Carroll to recover from his ACL injury that happened over 2 years ago (that’s a long time dude)? Recruiting is going to start suffering if you see the failures in development and reps and everything that LuckyLucci mentioned because this is not a good look. If Hiestand were here I don’t think this happens and you’d probably have Carroll, Kristofic, Correll, Patterson and Lugg all ready to take the reigns once their numbers are called as the oldest highest recruited dudes remaining. I think if we don’t see improvements this season then that’ll spell the end for Quinn and it’ll be super important for BK to make a big hire at OLine. Maybe call up Brent Key at GT and see what it takes to get him up here

Dirksen is basically Dillon Gibbons at this point. A guy who can be a solid depth piece, but not much else. Lacks the athleticism or the size/strength to be anything more than just a body.

As for Correll? Nah, you really can't get him much bigger. He's a generous 6'3, so you're not gonna get him much bigger than around 300.

Overall, I think people are underestimating how much COVID messed with the development of a lot of guys, especially OL guys who need to add weight, strength and in some cases, recover from injuries. Carroll especially is a guy who would've benefitted from a legitimate offseason coming off an ACL injury. Missing a whole year to injury and then having another year disrupted by a pandemic is nowhere near an ideal situation to develop under.

Kristofic just might be one of those guys who doesn't have a true position. Apparently lacks the athleticism for tackle and lacks the size for guard, leaving him pretty much relegated to center. He just seems like a guy the staff missed on during evals. He seemed like a guy who could put on the weight and remain on a strong trajectory with his athleticism, but that appears to have no happened.

In general, the 2019 class just seems like it was either bad luck with injuries and the pandemic or poor evaluations, or both. You can't have a class as horrendous as 2018 and then follow it up with one that doesn't plug the holes from the prior class.

 

[ND88]

Was Chip Long the only coach that Kelly actively fired (ie without Jack Swarbrick forcing his hand)? I think Quinn will retire here if he so chooses. If I’m not mistaken, we’d still have BVG if Kelly’s hand wasn’t forced. One thing about Kelly is he is very loyal to his guys.

 

[Rogue219]

ND should ask Iowa how to develop OL, they seem to know what the heck their doing.

Their current OL coach worked under Hiestand as a GA at Illinois. George Barnett. He grew up in Central Illinois and attended the same school as Chuck Martin and Jeff Monken.

https://hawkeyesports.com/coach/george-barnett/

This would be a fantastic hire for ND down the road. Look at his resume. This guy is a worker.

 

[IrishLax]

Was Chip Long the only coach that Kelly actively fired (ie without Jack Swarbrick forcing his hand)? I think Quinn will retire here if he so chooses. If I’m not mistaken, we’d still have BVG if Kelly’s hand wasn’t forced. One thing about Kelly is he is very loyal to his guys.

The irony here is that Chip Long wasn't even technically "fired" lol.... I forget the exact verbiage that was used, but I remember people actually thinking at the time he was leaving for greener pastures which was pretty funny.

I can't remember someone getting outright canned off the top of my head if we're ignoring the '16 season, I think they always find a way to let them save face.

 

[Wild Bill]

ND should ask Iowa how to develop OL, they seem to know what the heck their doing.

Iowa brought back their entire line. Nd had 3 drafted last year that were all eligible to return. That probably plays a role here.

 

[Armyirish47]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/ND_FB_Analytics/status/1438140785979965440[/TWEET]

 

[stpeteirish]

Coan's complete lack of escapeability is a real problem. Guess that Wisky OL was really good when he was there because he didn't get sacked much.when he was there. Looks like we have only two options; block better or change QB's. Neither is an easy fix.

 

[irishff1014]

Iowa brought back their entire line. Nd had 3 drafted last year that were all eligible to return. That probably plays a role here.

This happens at others schools too. You have to recruit well enough and coach good enough that your next guy is ready. It clearly looks like they aren’t ready or talented enough.

This is not just on Quinn or HH. They both have to own some of the blame.

 

[Dale]

This happens at others schools too. You have to recruit well enough and coach good enough that your next guy is ready. It clearly looks like they aren’t read or talented enough.

This not just on Quinn or HH. They both have to own some of the blame.

Ehh. Not so much this year. Most of the P5 returned multiple starters in 2021. ND is 100% on an island with very few others in returning snaps. A&M is the closest comparison but their transfer in to give them 2 returning starters was from Tennessee not Marshall. Their NFL returnee is also a OT not a C. Factor in many DLs returning more than normal (ex. Toledo) and it’s not any excuse but ND was at a situational disadvantage coming into the year, we, myself included, just thought we had prepared enough for it.

 

[irishff1014]

Ehh. Not so much this year. Most of the P5 returned multiple starters in 2021. ND is 100% on an island with very few others in returning snaps. A&M is the closest comparison but their transfer in to give them 2 returning starters was from Tennessee not Marshall. Their NFL returnee is also a OT not a C. Factor in many DLs returning more than normal (ex. Toledo) and it’s not any excuse but ND was at a situational disadvantage coming into the year, we, myself included, just thought we had prepared enough for it.

I am not isolating it to just 2021.

 

[ulukinatme]

Coan's complete lack of escapeability is a real problem. Guess that Wisky OL was really good when he was there because he didn't get sacked much.when he was there. Looks like we have only two options; block better or change QB's. Neither is an easy fix.

It's gotta be "block better." Changing QBs is only a short term fix, and not even a very good one. He who controls the trenches controls the game, and if we're losing that battle we're not going to go very far.

I'm all for poaching Iowa's OL coach if he's a disciple of Hiestand and Quinn doesn't get things cleaned up this week or next week. I think he's got 1-2 games to make this work before people are really gonna want him out because our current OL play is going to cost us games. We're lucky it hasn't yet.

I'm honestly a little sad that Hiestand is off the table given the fact he's home doing nothing right now. I don't care if a few soft kids transferred because they didn't like his style, I think I remember a lot of his NFL draft guys swearing by him for good reason. Some of the most dominant lines we've had in the last 25-30 years came under his tutelage.

 

[Sea Turtle]

It's gotta be "block better." Changing QBs is only a short term fix, and not even a very good one. He who controls the trenches controls the game, and if we're losing that battle we're not going to go very far.

I'm all for poaching Iowa's OL coach if he's a disciple of Hiestand and Quinn doesn't get things cleaned up this week or next week. I think he's got 1-2 games to make this work before people are really gonna want him out because our current OL play is going to cost us games. We're lucky it hasn't yet.

I'm honestly a little sad that Hiestand is off the table given the fact he's home doing nothing right now. I don't care if a few soft kids transferred because they didn't like his style, I think I remember a lot of his NFL draft guys swearing by him for good reason. Some of the most dominant lines we've had in the last 25-30 years came under his tutelage.

How about Chris Watt?

 

[Dale]

How about Chris Watt?

So all these guys not developing the last couple years is Quinn’s fault and we’re gonna hire someone who was also on that staff? How does that make sense?

 

[T-Boone]

Who was the strip sack on? The LT who had his hands full with the DE or Tyree who missed the corner blitz because he was well hidden?

 

[Calabrese's People]

heres an idea.....bear with me here..... Get rid of our Special Teams Coach/ Take-a-knee Coach/ Luau Co-Ordinator. Replace him with someone who can add to the coaching staff, instead of driving Coach Kelly's golfcart.... like Derek Shay...

 

[Chicago Domer]

Why are we talking about Iowa’s O Line coach. Iowa is averaging less than 240 yards of total offense a game(we’re averaging 440). They ran for less than 70 yards against Iowa State and had 173 yards of total offense. Imagine if we put up those stats on offense. We’d all be going nuts.

When Iowa plays someone with a good offense, they will be in trouble and their O Line coach will be getting torched. Right now they are winning totally with their D.

 

[Irish#1]

So all these guys not developing the last couple years is Quinn’s fault and we’re gonna hire someone who was also on that staff? How does that make sense?

Guilty by association? Quinn may be questionable as a line coach, but it doesn't mean Watt or anyone else that works under him aren't capable of doing better. They take their direction from Quinn and teach what he wants, not what they prefer.

 

[NDisme]

So all these guys not developing the last couple years is Quinn’s fault and we’re gonna hire someone who was also on that staff? How does that make sense?

What are you talking about? Watt was a GA last year and it was the best the line played under Quinn. He was only here last year now at Tulane.

 

[Dale]

What are you talking about? Watt was a GA last year and it was the best the line played under Quinn. He was only here last year now at Tulane.

Don’t disagree. But if you’re going to explain away all the positives of Quinn’s tenure and fire him for the negative. Watt coached 4 of the 5 guys that were out there Saturday too. His resume includes their development too not just multi year starters off to the NFL

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Coan's complete lack of escapeability is a real problem. Guess that Wisky OL was really good when he was there because he didn't get sacked much.when he was there. Looks like we have only two options; block better or change QB's. Neither is an easy fix.

The problem is the blocking scheme, not just the OL but the RBs and TEs in support, too. Perhaps it's Coan not recognizing the rush and hitting his check-downs sooner. Plenty of QBs don't have mobility. Was Peyton Manning's mobility a liability? Tom Brady's? Jimmy Clausen's? Not that I'm comparing Coan to these three, but certainly his mobility.

I think what CBK said after the game was pretty telling; they need to stop trying to force this team into being who they were the past few years (ground and pound) and play to the strengths of the team. If the OL can't get push, spread out the defense and move the pocket. Use quick throws and screens as an extension of the run game and to neutralize the pass rush if we're having a hard time protecting.

You can also bring in Buchner, just like they did last weekend, to run some RPO and get the ball moving on the ground.

But how anyone, and it's not just you, thinks that benching Coan is a solution to this offense is just utterly insane to me.

 

[GowerND11]

heres an idea.....bear with me here..... Get rid of our Special Teams Coach/ Take-a-knee Coach/ Luau Co-Ordinator. Replace him with someone who can add to the coaching staff, instead of driving Coach Kelly's golfcart.... like Derek Shay...

Spicy take on one of our best recruiters here. Also, I haven't noticed (other than that surprise onside kick by VA two years ago) anything the STs have done wrong during his tenure.

 

[DONTH8]

Spicy take on one of our best recruiters here. Also, I haven't noticed (other than that surprise onside kick by VA two years ago) anything the STs have done wrong during his tenure.

Go back and watch the last time we played Fichigan. That was really the only time that I was pissed with Polian as a coach, even though the outcome really wouldn't have changed much. It was just embarrassing more than anything.

Also, I'm disappointed that we havent seen Bramblett used as a thrower yet on a fake since he was a QB in high school. But I fully expect that to be utilized at some crucial juncture.

 

[RDU Irish]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/ND_FB_Analytics/status/1438140785979965440[/TWEET]

This is the only ray of sunshine I have seen in here. Coan has held on to the ball forever in many cases and these advanced stats indicate the OL is not the utter train wreck it appears to be. 3 seconds and get the ball TF out - be it with your own feet or chucking it to row 6. You don't have to be Michael Vick to have some pocket presence and evade the rush a bit either. This tweet gives me hope that we can make this serviceable in short order. Serviceable is enough to survive the schedule this year.

 

[stpeteirish]

The problem is the blocking scheme, not just the OL but the RBs and TEs in support, too. Perhaps it's Coan not recognizing the rush and hitting his check-downs sooner. Plenty of QBs don't have mobility. Was Peyton Manning's mobility a liability? Tom Brady's? Jimmy Clausen's? Not that I'm comparing Coan to these three, but certainly his mobility.

I think what CBK said after the game was pretty telling; they need to stop trying to force this team into being who they were the past few years (ground and pound) and play to the strengths of the team. If the OL can't get push, spread out the defense and move the pocket. Use quick throws and screens as an extension of the run game and to neutralize the pass rush if we're having a hard time protecting.

You can also bring in Buchner, just like they did last weekend, to run some RPO and get the ball moving on the ground.

But how anyone, and it's not just you, thinks that benching Coan is a solution to this offense is just utterly insane to me.

I'm not suggesting we "bench" Coan as much as continue the 2 QB shuffle if the blocking doesn't improve. I thought it was crazy for Kelly to bring in Buchner in the 1st half Sat but it turned out to be a game changer. Keep it up but we'll have to expand the # of plays he can run (beyond one, LOL).

And you're right the pass blocking is more than just the 5 OLM. But we need to adjust our play calling when Coan is in the game to quicker throws and more moving pocket and roll out stuff as we no longer have a elite OL.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

I'm not suggesting we "bench" Coan as much as continue the 2 QB shuffle if the blocking doesn't improve. I thought it was crazy for Kelly to bring in Buchner in the 1st half Sat but it turned out to be a game changer. Keep it up but we'll have to expand the # of plays he can run (beyond one, LOL).

And you're right the pass blocking is more than just the 5 OLM. But we need to adjust our play calling when Coan is in the game to quicker throws and more moving pocket and roll out stuff as we no longer have a elite OL.

I agree on the 2 QB approach, I think Buchner can help this offense and this team win, and he certainly did against UT. We don't win that game without TB12. Thank for clarifying, my apologies for assuming you were calling to bench Coan.

I think opposing defenses will have more of a headache trying to prepare for both. I'd love to see Buchner get some more drop back opportunities this Saturday, open up that playbook for him. But certainly the RPO wrinkle was very exciting to watch.