Offensive Line Thread

[IrishLax]

So our players made the program get rid of TWO coaches? Are these coaches being run off wherever they go or are our players whiney and entitled?

Long absolutely 100% deserved to be fired and is a very different situation than Harry. Harry was beloved/appreciated by most, but two kids couldn’t handle it.

 

[Wild Bill]

Running third stringer at LT your second game of the season on an already short of experience line, when you were starting a freshman game one ..... is all you need to know.

Pretty much. I assumed (hoped) the first couple weeks of the season would give them a chance to gain some experience/gel against below average teams and we all saw how that worked out.

Losing Fisher was big - he was the only guy outside of Patterson that was moving defenders in the run game against FSU. Now they have Karlaftis, Myjai Sanders and then a wiscy defense that is always well coached over the next three weeks.

No easy fix here. You can move Patterson and play Spindler but who knows how well Patterson will handle an edge rusher or how ready Spindler is to play. Buchner's mobility may help out a bit but not sure how much once D coordinators have film on him and start prepping for him.

Aside from the personnel decisions, I think the staff should focus on two things: 1. Get the ball out of the backfield quicker - scrap the slow developing run plays in favor of more downhill approach/more three step drops and less five step drops. 2. Offensive execution has been way better on the first posession of the game and even the second half of FSU. I assume these are scripted drives and you rep out scripted drives REPEATEDLY throughout the week. You can't script the entire damn game but maybe they consider reducing the playbook to some extent, get as many reps as you can on the plays you have going into the game to increase the likihood of proper execution. They have been great in two minute offense too so maybe you try tempo to keep defense off balance. Offensive coaches will earn those checks this year.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Long absolutely 100% deserved to be fired and is a very different situation than Harry. Harry was beloved/appreciated by most, but two kids couldn’t handle it.

Ah, ok.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Driskell is pretty much considered a grade A shit stirrer at this point, and the incredibly large axe he's consistently grinded against Quinn and Rees makes anything he says about either of them extremely suspect.

Quinn, yes. Rees, not so much. He has said a lot of good thing about him this off-season and the current season. He even interviewed he and Freeman a few weeks ago (I thought he was cut off from the program?).
I think that they were both lazy, unimaginative hires, myself. We hire a 28 year old qb coach who has never been an OC before to cut his teeth on our program while Alabama hires ex college and Nfl coaches to run theirs. And we wonder why they humiliate us on the field. I know that's not the only reason but it's an example.

 

[Wild Bill]

Quinn, yes. Rees, not so much. He has said a lot of good thing about him this off-season and the current season. He even interviewed he and Freeman a few weeks ago (I thought he was cut off from the program?).
I think that they were both lazy, unimaginative hires, myself. We hire a 28 year old qb coach who has never been an OC before to cut his teeth on our program while Alabama hires ex college and Nfl coaches to run theirs. And we wonder why they humiliate us on the field. I know that's not the only reason but it's an example.

Failed NFL/college head coaches who are proven coordinators aren't beating down the gug's doors and I'd rather take a shot on a young guy with a ton of potential than a mediocre re-tread whose best quality is experience. Just one man's opinion.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Quinn, yes. Rees, not so much. He has said a lot of good thing about him this off-season and the current season. He even interviewed he and Freeman a few weeks ago (I thought he was cut off from the program?).
I think that they were both lazy, unimaginative hires, myself. We hire a 28 year old qb coach who has never been an OC before to cut his teeth on our program while Alabama hires ex college and Nfl coaches to run theirs. And we wonder why they humiliate us on the field. I know that's not the only reason but it's an example.

I do remember when we hired an ex college and NFL coach to run our defense. That didn't work out so well. I also remember an unimaginative DC hire when Elko left.

 

[stpeteirish]

Encouraging note, at least to me in today's presser Kelly indicated a rotation at guard "might" be used this week. Rocco, come on down.

 

[stpeteirish]

Kelly also said Carmody looked "pretty good" yesterday and might be avalable this week.

 

[IRISHMAN]

Kelly also said Carmody looked "pretty good" yesterday and might be avalable this week.

it would be huge if carmody is 100% for purdue.

 

[Sea Turtle]

I do remember when we hired an ex college and NFL coach to run our defense. That didn't work out so well. I also remember an unimaginative DC hire when Elko left.

Head coach? Like a Kiffin, Sarkisian or O'brien?

 

[Dale]

Quinn, yes. Rees, not so much. He has said a lot of good thing about him this off-season and the current season. He even interviewed he and Freeman a few weeks ago (I thought he was cut off from the program?).
I think that they were both lazy, unimaginative hires, myself. We hire a 28 year old qb coach who has never been an OC before to cut his teeth on our program while Alabama hires ex college and Nfl coaches to run theirs. And we wonder why they humiliate us on the field. I know that's not the only reason but it's an example.

Worked for Clemson. But no one ever mentions that example

 

[greyhammer90]

Head coach? Like a Kiffin, Sarkisian or O'brien?

We gonna pretend like Kiffin and Sarkisian were the hottest names in the business at the time they were hired?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

We hire a 28 year old qb coach who has never been an OC before to cut his teeth on our program while Alabama hires ex college and Nfl coaches to run theirs. And we wonder why they humiliate us on the field. I know that's not the only reason but it's an example.

Take a look at the Blue Chip Ratio:

Kelly's "lazy unimaginative hires" have accomplished more with less than all but three teams above us on that list over the last 4 years. Only Clemson is reliably punching above its weight as well or better than we are.

 

[Dale]

We ran 4 Verts actually a large handful of times on Saturday. Sark and Ryan Day calling cards. Lenzy and Austin have two of the longest ADOT in CFB right now. But if Sark called 4 Verts with this OL I guess it’d be so much better

 

[tussin]

Take a look at the Blue Chip Ratio:

Kelly's "lazy unimaginative hires" have accomplished more with less than all but three teams above us on that list over the last 4 years. Only Clemson is reliably punching above its weight as well or better than we are.

I generally agree, but our Blue Chip Ratio specific to the OL is probably one of the highest in the country. Through two games of the season the unit is punching very much below its weight. There are a list of high level recruits/players that are not living up to the evaluations -- Baker, Carroll, Kristofic, Madden, etc. There's too much talent on the roster to give up 6 sacks to Toledo.

 

[Wild Bill]

I generally agree, but our Blue Chip Ratio specific to the OL is probably one of the highest in the country. Through two games of the season the unit is punching very much below its weight. There are a list of high level recruits/players that are not living up to the evaluations -- Baker, Carroll, Kristofic, Madden, etc. There's too much talent on the roster to give up 6 sacks to Toledo.

I caught a glimpse of Carroll walking off the field on Saturday and he's an absolute unit. He was a high four star too. Unfortunate he hasn't developed into a player - not sure if it's b/c of injury or not.

Maybe I misread or I'm not remembering it correctly but it seemed like Kristovic was a guy that was on a path to be a multi year starter and he can't even crack the lineup under these conditions.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I generally agree, but our Blue Chip Ratio specific to the OL is probably one of the highest in the country. Through two games of the season the unit is punching very much below its weight. There are a list of high level recruits/players that are not living up to the evaluations -- Baker, Carroll, Kristofic, Madden, etc. There's too much talent on the roster to give up 6 sacks to Toledo.

Sea Turtle's comments weren't specific to this year's OL, but to Kelly's hiring practices generally. So if you agree generally, then we agree.

I'm also extremely concerned about the OL. Not just because it's the cornerstone for all offensive success, but because it's central to our identity as a team. To see the position group that was supposed to be our most elite come out looking this incompetent has been jarring, to say the least.

But you can't look at the last four seasons and tell me Kelly is a bad coach. He's doing more with less than virtually everyone else in the nation.

 

[Irish du Nord]

I caught a glimpse of Carroll walking off the field on Saturday and he's an absolute unit. He was a high four star too. Unfortunate he hasn't developed into a player - not sure if it's b/c of injury or not.

Maybe I misread or I'm not remembering it correctly but it seemed like Kristovic was a guy that was on a path to be a multi year starter and he can't even crack the lineup under these conditions.

I believe that Carroll's speed was what people reported as his obstacle to playing (whether this was related to his injury or not I am unaware)

 

[Rogue219]

I could give a shit about what that blowhard nonce Driskell says.

Seems like the OL under Quinn has been pretty unlucky with injuries, right?

Correct me if I'm wrong:

2018 he lost Bars.
2019 he lost Hainsey and Kraemer.
Last year it was Patterson and Correll.

Now he lost Fisher.

Wasn't real crazy about him being hired but to be fair it seems he hasn't had a ton of luck having a solid depth chart.

 

[ulukinatme]

Hiestand leaving was because of complaints/allegations with his coaching style. He was a hard ass and considered "abusive" by two players who transferred, one of whom kept a journal in order to facilitate an immediate PT waiver. That's at least what I heard from a very reliable source. He's not coming back to ND, as unfortunate as that is, unless something has changed on that front that makes him no longer considered a liability. He is by a country mile the best ND OL coach of my lifetime.

With that said, I do not buy that because Eichenberg/Kraemer had an early year with Harry he deserves credit for them while Quinn deserves none. They absolutely sucked early in their careers, and only improved under Quinn. Hainsey is the only guy who played competently from the jump. Banks never saw the field and similarly went from wildly inconsistent -> NFL player under Quinn. Hiestand did not leave Quinn a cupboard loaded with developed talent that he has been coasting on. I know that's not what you're saying, but it's been said/implied by many. The truth is that the worst OL managed by Quinn was during an undefeated season -> they made major improvements the following year -> they were one of the best the next year once he didn't have to deal with Long's scheme.

Fast forward two years from now with healthy Fisher - Spindler - ?? - Chan - Alt and everyone is going to think the OL coach is a genius. But right now, there are a lot of guys playing who just are not ready // may never be ready to play top tier football. Is that partially a coaching issue? Maybe. Is it mainly because there are zero quality players in our senior and junior classes? Certainly. I have a feeling Quinn would look just fine if Banks had elected to stay another year and Fisher hadn't gotten hurt.

I hadn't heard that about Harry, but I'm not in the know either. That's a real shame, sounds like some soft kids couldn't cut it and had an ax to grind so they could get immediate playing time elsewhere. You can't argue with Harry's results, even if he mailed it in a bit the last season. The guys that studied under him have been killing it at the next level.

I still think this year will say the most about Quinn. This line is all his at this point and if he can't get them clicking then it's on him. We do have to keep in mind that OL is one of the hardest places to get early playing time. Usually it takes time for OL to bulk up a bit, get their technique down, build chemistry and trust with the other starters, etc. It's only because Fish is an absolute beast that he supplanted older guys to get playing time, it's a shame he's sidelined. Hopefully Quinn gets the others coached up in a hurry and we figure out how to control the trenches better.

 

[Rogue219]

The story I recall reading was when Chicago hired Matt Nagy from KC, the first call Nagy made was to Hiestand. By December 2019 Hiestand got fired with Helfrich and the TE coach.

His family was still in South Bend while he was with Chicago last I'd read.

I guess it is possible he might have been a hard ass, but I don't think he was going to be forced out or fired. The NFL came calling again and he took the opportunity. He's currently not coaching anywhere as of now as far as I can find.

 

[Irishize]

I tend to agree w/ Irish Illustrated’s Tim O’Malley. While he concedes the OL can improve this season, it’s unlikely to improve to what we’re used to and they will struggle most of the season. He does see the defense getting much better. Prister & Sampson agreed. If they stop giving up the 60 yd play, they’re numbers improve greatly. But…those 60 yd plays still occurred so the D has to find a way to tighten that up.

 

[stpeteirish]

I believe that Carroll's speed was what people reported as his obstacle to playing (whether this was related to his injury or not I am unaware)

Lateral quickness more than speed. That would explain the move off of OT but it would seems he could get by at G.

 

[Irish#1]

Ah, ok.

Pretty sure Nelson loved Harry. He talked about Harry pushing him to be better.

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

Take a look at the Blue Chip Ratio:

Kelly's "lazy unimaginative hires" have accomplished more with less than all but three teams above us on that list over the last 4 years. Only Clemson is reliably punching above its weight as well or better than we are.

I don't disagree with the general premise but the coaches are also responsible for recruiting. So if we aren't getting enough of the blue chippers I'm still looking at the coaches. One in particular, starts with D and ends with el. And Quinn is also responsible for the very poor offensive line play to date.

 

[Dale]

I don't disagree with the general premise but the coaches are also responsible for recruiting. So if we aren't getting enough of the blue chippers I'm still looking at the coaches. One in particular, starts with D and ends with el. And Quinn is also responsible for the very poor offensive line play to date.

You’re quoting a team talent ranking and looking at one position coach? That just mathematically doesn’t add up from the beginning. Actually it starts with L and ends with ea. The current 247 Team Talent Composite cites 39 3 star players. 5 are ST. The Defense accounts for 23 of them. The offense is 11, 3 of which are QBs (as usual someone could check my math could have made an error). I’m the biggest of proponent of Lea as a coach but whenever our recruiting talent on roster comes up, he has maybe the biggest role in the talent ratio.

 

[ulukinatme]

Pretty sure Nelson loved Harry. He talked about Harry pushing him to be better.

The tough ones got better because of him.
Harry turned the coal into diamonds, and the common stone into dust.

 

[ThePiombino]

Wasn't real crazy about him being hired but to be fair it seems he hasn't had a ton of luck having a solid depth chart.

I'm sorry, but whose fault is that exactly if not Quinn's?

 

[Rogue219]

I'm sorry, but whose fault is that exactly if not Quinn's?

I'm sorry, I meant in terms of health. He's missing one or two key guys every year due to injury. Injuries are more bad luck than anything. I don't think you can blame him for that part of it.

 

[ThePiombino]

I'm sorry, I meant in terms of health. He's missing one or two key guys every year due to injury. Injuries are more bad luck than anything. I don't think you can blame him for that part of it.

Definitely can't blame him for injuries, at least not IMO. However, the OLine should be more than 1 deep, no? It doesn't even look 1 deep right now. That's bad. And that's on him. Again, IMO. And for the record, I think Driskell is a petulant toddler.