COVID-19

[Rogue219]

Not true... see my response above. Is diabetes, lung cancer, clogged arteries communciable and can it kill them?

I have to say its interesting to see you all comparing a deadly communciable disease to long term comorbidities....

This has been going on for months.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

This has been going on for months.

So not a new thing huh lol

 

[ab2cmiller]

Not true... see my response above. Is diabetes, lung cancer, clogged arteries communciable and can it kill them?

I have to say its interesting to see you all comparing a deadly communciable disease to long term comorbidities....

But how does proposing to not treat someone who has a communicable disease help solve the problem? Not treating someone with a communicable disease just leads to more spread. I really don't understand any hospital or doctor refusing to treat a patient because you think they should've gotten the vaccine. Even the South Florida doctors that staged a symbolic "walkout" in the past week when questioned, replied that the walkout indeed is only symbolic but they do have a responsibility to treat those that are sick.

 

[Trait Expectations]

Two kids in our school district have tested positive and have symptoms. Both under the age of 12.

Let the good times roll.

We've had over 15 cases in our small grade school. Every kid under is under 12. Over 50 people are in quarantine as close contacts.

 

[Trait Expectations]

But how does proposing to not treat someone who has a communicable disease help solve the problem? Not treating someone with a communicable disease just leads to more spread. I really don't understand any hospital or doctor refusing to treat a patient because you think they should've gotten the vaccine. Even the South Florida doctors that staged a symbolic "walkout" in the past week when questioned, replied that the walkout indeed is only symbolic but they do have a responsibility to treat those that are sick.

I think people should be treated BUT I think load-balancing should be built into the system. If 10 people arrive and need to be vented, 1 vaccinated and 9 unvaccinated and there are only 5 vents, the vaccinated should move to the front of the line. They can then triage the rest accordingly. There is something to be said for incentivizing good behavior.

But I'll admit, this is still a nascent thought. I haven't given it enough time in my head to really consider repercussions and analogue scenarios.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

But how does proposing to not treat someone who has a communicable disease help solve the problem? Not treating someone with a communicable disease just leads to more spread. I really don't understand any hospital or doctor refusing to treat a patient because you think they should've gotten the vaccine. Even the South Florida doctors that staged a symbolic "walkout" in the past week when questioned, replied that the walkout indeed is only symbolic but they do have a responsibility to treat those that are sick.

So now, becasue people who dont want to get vaccinated, get sick and require medical attention, its the doctors moral and ethical part to treat these people who are straining the hospitals resources to collapse.... but not the moral and ethical duty of the indivudal to protect thesmelves so they dont have to get treament in the first palce. Positive feedback loop created by the physically able but unwilling. Its a condition of selfishness. Is ther ea right to healthcare or is doctors ethical duty being unduly burden by selfsih people?

 

[ab2cmiller]

Even prisoners of war are entitled to treatment. People who were actively trying to kill people instead of unintentionally potentially passively killing people. What you are suggesting is that people who don't get the vaccine deserve less than enemy combatants.

 

[ab2cmiller]

The position of no quarter is a moral one. Strictly speaking taking of prisoners is a burden on the side that does so. But you side stepped the question of whether. Healthcare is a right.

Healthcare has a moral obligation to treat everyone, regardless of how stupid you think they are or if you think they have made terrible ethical decisions by not getting the vaccine.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Healthcare has a moral obligation to treat everyone, regardless of how stupid you think they are or if you think they have made terrible ethical decisions by not getting the vaccine.

. This is the slipperiest of slippery slopes. IMO

 

[ab2cmiller]

. This is the slipperiest of slippery slopes. IMO

I agree that your opinion is the slippery slope. Your view is extreme. Healthcare is already treating everyone. Your suggestion is that they stop

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I agree that your opinion is the slippery slope. Your view is extreme. Healthcare is already treating everyone. Your suggestion is that they stop

This isn’t true. Everyone isn’t being treated because of selfish people being selfish and I was being flippant about not treating unvaccinated people anyway. Just making a point. People who need to be treated can’t get treated because selfish people who wouldn’t need to be treated are hogging all the resources. Which one is more moral? This exercise is simply the trolley problem. Which track is correct?

 

[ab2cmiller]

FIFY

This isn't true. Everyone isn't being treated because of selfish people being selfish and I was being flippant about not treating unvaccinated people anyway. Just making a point. People who need to be treated can't get treated because selfish people who wouldn't need to be treated are hogging all the resources. Which one is more moral? This exercise is simply a trolling problem. Which track is correct?

 

[Valpodoc85]

With regard to the vaccine. Get it. Get the booster. When covid vaccine 2.0 comes out get it. I suspect the tide with regards to the vaccine will become such that non-vaccinated individuals will begin getting significant blow back. People are getting tired of covid and want it gone Antivax arguments will wear thin.

with regards to masks. They are a minor inconvenience. We can argue efficacy but to say they don’t work is just not consistent with infectious orthodoxy. I wear one in the operating room daily and there is good data to support this. Ask an orthopedic surgeon about infectious risk and mask wearing.

with regards to the virus. It is unstable and endemic in the world population. It will continue to mutate and disrupt healthcare and economic systems until it reaches a more stable form or we develop an antiviral medication for it. This will have enormous economic and social consequences. It maybe the defining event of the 21st century

 

[Irishize]

Not true... see my response above. Is diabetes, lung cancer, clogged arteries communciable and can it kill them?

I have to say its interesting to see you all comparing a deadly communciable disease to long term comorbidities....

What’s not true? You’re the one that suggested this: “They should just put a block on hospital beds for people who cant prove they are vaccianted.”

Now you’re quickly changing the subject. Everyone who responded to your ridiculous suggestion noted the obvious slippery slope when it comes to people’s poor choices.

You don’t think Medicare & Medicaid isn’t paying billions in healthcare for people who made poor personal choices that adversely affected their health?

The almost 750,000 people who live with kidney failure are 1% of the U.S. Medicare population but account for roughly 7% of the Medicare budget.

• Medicare spending for kidney failure patients is at $35 billion in 2016

SOURCE: https://pharm.ucsf.edu/kidney/need/statistics

 

[Irishize]

This has been going on for months.

Wrong. Others may have compared a communicable disease to personal illnesses but not in the context that your friend is talking about. If you recall, he stated the following:

They should just put a block on hospital beds for people who cant prove they are vaccianted

If you don’t agree that’s a slippery slope to hospitals or insurance not taking care of people b/c of the poor personal choices they made then I don’t know what to tell you. I get as frustrated as you do w/ the lack of people vaccinating and those same people take up ICU space but I’m not calling for them to be turned away to die on the street like your friend did (yet now he’s claiming he was just being flippant). Funny others don’t get that grace when they say something stupid and then try to walk it back.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Wrong. Others may have compared a communicable disease to personal illnesses but not in the context that your friend is talking about. If you recall, he stated the following:



If you don’t agree that’s a slippery slope to hospitals or insurance not taking care of people b/c of the poor personal choices they made then I don’t know what to tell you. I get as frustrated as you do w/ the lack of people vaccinating and those same people take up ICU space but I’m not calling for them to be turned away to die on the street like your friend did (yet now he’s claiming he was just being flippant). Funny others don’t get that grace when they say something stupid and then try to walk it back.

Dude…I’m not changing the topic…. But IMO you can’t compare diabetes and lung cancer to a deadly communicable disease that spreads like wildfire. Lol. The fact that no less than three posters used it as a comparison is interesting to me because you can’t spread lung cancer to someone else and kill them. We are having a discussion. It’s ok. As I said before I was being flippant and not serious and no I don’t want anyone to die. My sister works in an over run hospital ward in Mississippi. They are over 100% capacity and 99 % of the Covid patients are unvaccinated. I worry about her hourly. She is working tons of hours because people are quitting left and right and they have emergency traumas that can’t get into the hospital and they have people waiting 48hours to get admitted. It’s crazy. I posted all of this a week or so ago and it hasn’t improved as of today when I talked to her. Anyway I’m was trying to drill down on the moral and ethical dilemma of this and I probably typed some things I shouldn’t have or wasn’t clear in my intent. My fault. I’ll leave it here and I appreciate the back and forth.

 

[TorontoGold]

Health insurance should be raised for anti vaxxers, yay or nay?

 

[ab2cmiller]

Health insurance should be raised for anti vaxxers, yay or nay?

I'm fine with that, probably should be charging smokers and obese individuals more as well.

 

[Irish#1]

Wrong. Others may have compared a communicable disease to personal illnesses but not in the context that your friend is talking about. If you recall, he stated the following:



If you don’t agree that’s a slippery slope to hospitals or insurance not taking care of people b/c of the poor personal choices they made then I don’t know what to tell you. I get as frustrated as you do w/ the lack of people vaccinating and those same people take up ICU space but I’m not calling for them to be turned away to die on the street like your friend did (yet now he’s claiming he was just being flippant). Funny others don’t get that grace when they say something stupid and then try to walk it back.

I'm vax'd and believe everyone should get the vaccinations, but I have a hard time with people saying those with COVID are taking beds away from those that really need it. Hospitals are there to take care of people, regardless of the illness. Doctors take an oath to treat people and will do it. You don't turn someone away because they decided not to get vaccinated, same as you wouldn't turn away a heart attack victim because they were overweight. Hospitals are better prepared today due to what they encountered last year. They will figure out a way to help everyone.

 

[TorontoGold]

I'm fine with that, probably should be charging smokers and obese individuals more as well.

That's already the case.

 

[Rogue219]

I'm fine with that, probably should be charging smokers and obese individuals more as well.

I agree with smokers, but there seems to be some sweeping assumptions about obese people here. Smoking comes down to a choice, and it is known by now to be a very bad one. Obesity isn't necessarily a person just shoving calories into themselves, not exerecising and sitting on the couch. Many don't choose it and struggle with it.

Doctors can't turn people away. It is a slippery slope, but I continue to have less and less sympathy for people who are railing off about not getting vaccinated, not wearing masks and Covid being
a hoax only to see these same people weeks later wind up hospitalized or dead. There is a new story every day like this, it seems.

Again, I understand completely why people are not getting the shot, where they are getting their information that is leading them to make this decision and why they're doing it even now. There is little or nothing anyone can do about it. Mandates are political suicide now because this (like everything) was politicized from the get go and they will only make people inch further away from ever getting vaccinated.

I selfishly hope that this virus doesn't get anyone that I truly care about. It has disrupted the world long enough.

 

[ab2cmiller]

That's already the case.

I was speaking in the context of employer provided insurance, which I don’t think is normally the case. Maybe some employers do, I don’t know.

 

[NDPhilly]

Bloomberg - Previous Infection Prevents Delta Infection Better than Pfizer Shot

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...vents-delta-infection-better-than-pfizer-shot

Please continue to tell me what a bad person I am for not getting the vaccine despite already having covid.

 

[RDU Irish]

The amount of non-confirmed cases is impossible to know and will just take time for better estimates - every doomsday I see assumes confirmed cases are the only cases. The fact so many ran with such bad statistics is beyond pathetic - I mean it isn't that complex of a concept and the skew in data produced is huge.

Here we are a year and a half later and everyone still doesn't give any respect to recovered cases and the fact that we don't know how many people have had this without every being a confirmed case.

 

[NDohio]

I was speaking in the context of employer provided insurance, which I don’t think is normally the case. Maybe some employers do, I don’t know.

Yes, my employer gives discounts for non-smokers and getting yearly physicals.

Moral question: On Friday 8/13 a family in our neighborhood had a child test positive. The next evening the parents attended a Chris Stapleton concert. This family is very active on social media and posted their entire weekend on FB ( I am not active on FB so I didn't see the postings at first). Their was a ton of blowback on them and their irresponsibility of attending the concert. Their pictures from the concert show them as unmasked. Do they deserve the negativity?

 

[tussin]

Moral question: On Friday 8/13 a family in our neighborhood had a child test positive. The next evening the parents attended a Chris Stapleton concert. This family is very active on social media and posted their entire weekend on FB ( I am not active on FB so I didn't see the postings at first). Their was a ton of blowback on them and their irresponsibility of attending the concert. Their pictures from the concert show them as unmasked. Do they deserve the negativity?

Probably not, was the concert indoors? Guidance from the CDC:

• If you’ve had close contact with someone who has COVID-19, you should get tested 3-5 days after your exposure, even if you don’t have symptoms. You should also wear a mask indoors in public for 14 days following exposure or until your test result is negative. You should isolate for 10 days if your test result is positive.

 

[IrishLion]

Yes, my employer gives discounts for non-smokers and getting yearly physicals.

Moral question: On Friday 8/13 a family in our neighborhood had a child test positive. The next evening the parents attended a Chris Stapleton concert. This family is very active on social media and posted their entire weekend on FB ( I am not active on FB so I didn't see the postings at first). Their was a ton of blowback on them and their irresponsibility of attending the concert. Their pictures from the concert show them as unmasked. Do they deserve the negativity?

IMO: Hell yeah they deserve the blowback. If you absolutely feel like you can't miss your plans, even if you have a child that tested positive, at they *VERY* least, you should mask up if you're going to be around people.

A friend had a coworker show up to work the other day with a fever. They knew they had a fever and a cough, but went to work prior to getting tested anyway. Then they tested positive, and the entire office had to shut down during one of their busiest periods of the year (coinciding with local university starting). Now another unit is not only doing their own work, but scrambling to cover for the other office that shut down.

Just use some common sense, folks.

 

[NDohio]

Probably not, was the concert indoors? Guidance from the CDC:

• If you’ve had close contact with someone who has COVID-19, you should get tested 3-5 days after your exposure, even if you don’t have symptoms. You should also wear a mask indoors in public for 14 days following exposure or until your test result is negative. You should isolate for 10 days if your test result is positive.

It was an outdoor concert.

 

[RDU Irish]

a) Increased capacity is an option. Ventilators can and have been used to serve two patients at once - viola double capacity. Maybe patients have to share rooms too. That is without even trying hard but Americans need their white glove, country club treatment.

b) Not all states and locations are created equal - rural American can much more easily isolate and distance versus cities. Cesspools with feces ridden streets and hundreds packed in to high rises spread this thing faster than flyover country - go figure.

c) Death is a fact of life. Boomers seem to have a harder time coping with this than many previous generations and young people are forever cavalier about this fact. Boomers have all of the money and all of the power.

d) 20% of cases are health care workers - seems we may be slowing the spread so they are recovered by the time this gets worse. I don't see the professionals on the front lines quitting over this near guaranteed exposure but we are all mortified of touching a shopping cart. Wash your hands and take precautions but living in fear is BS.

e) Cat was already well out of the bag thanks to China playing possum for 2-3 months. I am not convinced it has spread this fast as much as it had ALREADY spread everywhere and the testing is catching up to reality. As testing catches up the increases look much worse than they already are.

f) 2.5 million people were going to die in the US this year (7000/day) - fact is we are destroying our economy to stay within 10% of that number - I wouldn't be surprised if the grand total for the year is statistically in line with previous years with drops in many categories. Folks who would have been marked up for heart disease or cancer will be in the COVID column. I also think the number of people who have it or had it is multiples more than confirmed cases. Get an antibody test that shows who has had it and let those folks get back to work.

From April 2, 2020

To prove I can admit when I am wrong - f) claims 2.5M die - the more appropriate 2020 base line should be 2.9M. https://www.prb.org/usdata/indicator/deaths/chart/ 2019 to 2020 increase was 18% - more than the 10% I predicted early April 2020. I still subscribe to the theory that this 500k excess will be mostly subtracted from 2021,2022,2023 deaths given the average age of Covid death is so high and co-morbidities prevalent. WITH versus OF is still a big point of contention IMO.

 

[RDU Irish]

Bloomberg - Previous Infection Prevents Delta Infection Better than Pfizer Shot

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...vents-delta-infection-better-than-pfizer-shot

Please continue to tell me what a bad person I am for not getting the vaccine despite already having covid.

This is where all the chicken littles lose me and I feel the need to point out my natural immunity is far superior to their manufactured security blanket. Hysteria.