COVID-19

[Trait Expectations]

I don't really have a problem with vaccine mandates once it's fully approved by the FDA. People have needed vaccines to travel and to attend school for literally decades. Used to have to show proof of smallpox inoculation to get on a train. Shrug.

This is where I'm at. Some how people have turned this into a freedom thing. If more people would've voluntarily received the vaccine quicker, we may not even be having this discussion. It seems like all of these protests are under the guise of freedom protection. At what point do we atomize to the point of destruction? Is every man an island unto himself?

 

[BleedBlueGold]

The freedom argument is nonsensical. They conveniently ignore a primary responsibility of the Fed Gov which is to protect it's citizens. They also conveniently ignore how "freedom" in this country isn't defined by doing whatever the hell you want. Your actions, if they effect others negatively, have consequences. I'm sorry, but I have zero support for people touting the freedom angle. It's idiotic and quite frankly un-patriotic.

 

[NDdomer2]

San Fran is mandating vaccination for attending public companies and events.

 

[RDU Irish]

I did fellowship at a childrens hospital and we were empty most of the time. The adult cases were under control so we only took an ecmo consult or 2 in 20 year olds in outlying areas. The normal flu/rsv/pneumonia season was crushed by social distancing.

Adult hospitals were over capacity at times when we had surges, but our mortality rate is between a half and a third of the national average. We went above capacity once because an outlying city of 250k had an outbreak and after overwhelming local hospitals patients were shunted to seattle which overwhelmed the adult hospitals.

Now, we have viruses again, normal trauma season, working through planned surgeries that got delayed. Lockdowns and masks are bad and have enormous unintended negative consequences in peds. A lot of hospitals got financially crushed by this so they let people go/didnt hire. We're now seeing what a pandemic without mitigation does. Places with bad vaccination rates will do poorly.

500 nurse shortage last weekend in my wife's hospital system, she claims that is just L&D but that sounds ridiculously high so I expect it is the entire system. At the same time management has just mandated vaccines for all workers. Bravo management! First time in 20 years of practice, my wife is talking about quitting. She is supplemental and worked about full time in July and another three days this week as soon as we got home from vacation. Constant requests to cover and onw seeing nurses getting offered higher pay than nurse practitioners to work weekends due to shortages. Many who are secondary income or near retirement are heading for the exit doors - vaccinated or not.

To the bolded - not surprising that shutting down elective surgery last year for an extended period of time decimated hospital finances. That is what pays the bills! Particularly for smaller systems and smaller communities who have been losing that work for a long time, this was the I beam breaking the camel's back. Tragically ironic that 15 days to flatten the curve so hospitals aren't overwhelmed somehow morphed in to crippling the system financially and creating a self fulfilling prophecy of supply shortages. Careful what you ask for AMA, CDC, etc.

Fixed part of that comment for you. I don't understand how this is not a more in depth topic of conversation with the rise of RSV, suicide rates, substance abuse and other issues facing children. Classic move to impose your will on those you can - easiest to treat kids like bio-hazards and tell them what to do. The refusal to analyze collateral damage from these measures is criminal, IMO.

 

[NDPhilly]

The vaccines have done little to prevent transmission and wane over time…making the mandates useless if the goal is protecting the vaccinated.

Fauci literally said yesterday that boosters will be needed for all vaccinated individuals eventually. Are booster mandates next? When does it end?

 

[NDPhilly]

This is where I'm at. Some how people have turned this into a freedom thing. If more people would've voluntarily received the vaccine quicker, we may not even be having this discussion. It seems like all of these protests are under the guise of freedom protection. At what point do we atomize to the point of destruction? Is every man an island unto himself?

Billions of unvaccinated individuals across the world. Do you really think Covid would just disappear? Iceland has every adult vaccinated and in the midst of their most covid cases of the pandemic.

Covid Zero is not an achievable strategy.

 

[RDU Irish]

The freedom argument is nonsensical. They conveniently ignore a primary responsibility of the Fed Gov which is to protect it's citizens. They also conveniently ignore how "freedom" in this country isn't defined by doing whatever the hell you want. Your actions, if they effect others negatively, have consequences. I'm sorry, but I have zero support for people touting the freedom angle. It's idiotic and quite frankly un-patriotic.

You are correct. We should mandate vegetables for all comrades to fight the obesity epidemic that is clogging our hospital system which makes my health insurance more expensive and might mean I can't get a doctor if I need one. Bring back prohibition too.

Children are at virtually zero risk from Covid and it's variants. Healthy people have little to worry about. Less than 24 hours on a $5 steroid turned me around - we know how to treat respiratory viruses. We don't need some miracle cure, we need better transparency and awareness around when to get a damn steroid if you aren't getting better on your own. My natural immunity is totally ignored - it is superior to be vaccinated by an enormous margin. You want to mandate I get a vaccine now you are a complete science denier, yet I will probably have to do it to ever travel again (and six month boosters from the looks of things). Flu is more dangerous to me and my family - why not mandate that shot too? I have forever thought flu vaccines should be free as a matter of public health - mandates are for tyrants though.

Also anyone claiming the vaccine has zero downside is either lying or grotesquely ignorant (see how that you are dumb for not agreeing with me thing works). For children, we are arguing over forced vaccination to achieve what? Already damn close to zero in their risk, say the vaccine cuts their risk in half - what is half of zero again? Kids have so little to gain and so much more to lose in this risk/return tradeoff its ridiculous. My wife had a good month of reduced strength/mobility on half her body shortly after her second poke. Fell down a couple times. Lots of co-workers vaccinated around the same time had similar issues. You think that impacts her desire to put this shit (that they don't need) in our kids?

And equating non-FDA approved, rushed to market vaccine with being anti-vax is intellectually dishonest. This isn't Jenny McCarthy squealing about autism here. Make your choice and proceed to mind your own business folks. If the vaccine works, you shouldn't give two squats what the next person does after you.

 

[Trait Expectations]

Why do all studies I reference and summarize get deleted, lol?

Are data backed studies scary?

Because they are faulty and have been fully refuted. Also, you have no intention of actually reading or listening to anyone else's links. I've WASTED a lot of time reading your links and listening to the Dark Horse podcast to get a better feel for Weinstein and his positon (Aka - your position). You have ignored or refused to address my links. I'm sure you are too busy memorizing the data from Brett and his compatriots.

What more is there to say about your position? It's faulty, backed by studies/findings that are not reproducible. I keep hoping Ivermectin shows promise as a therapeutic for those who've contracted COVID. Or any other drug for that matter. The people would rejoice to hear of a drug that does 1/2 of what you ascribe to Ivermectin.

 

[Trait Expectations]

You are correct. We should mandate vegetables for all comrades to fight the obesity epidemic that is clogging our hospital system which makes my health insurance more expensive and might mean I can't get a doctor if I need one. Bring back prohibition too.

Children are at virtually zero risk from Covid and it's variants. Healthy people have little to worry about. Less than 24 hours on a $5 steroid turned me around - we know how to treat respiratory viruses. We don't need some miracle cure, we need better transparency and awareness around when to get a damn steroid if you aren't getting better on your own. My natural immunity is totally ignored - it is superior to be vaccinated by an enormous margin. You want to mandate I get a vaccine now you are a complete science denier, yet I will probably have to do it to ever travel again (and six month boosters from the looks of things). Flu is more dangerous to me and my family - why not mandate that shot too? I have forever thought flu vaccines should be free as a matter of public health - mandates are for tyrants though.

Also anyone claiming the vaccine has zero downside is either lying or grotesquely ignorant (see how that you are dumb for not agreeing with me thing works). For children, we are arguing over forced vaccination to achieve what? Already damn close to zero in their risk, say the vaccine cuts their risk in half - what is half of zero again? Kids have so little to gain and so much more to lose in this risk/return tradeoff its ridiculous. My wife had a good month of reduced strength/mobility on half her body shortly after her second poke. Fell down a couple times. Lots of co-workers vaccinated around the same time had similar issues. You think that impacts her desire to put this shit (that they don't need) in our kids?

And equating non-FDA approved, rushed to market vaccine with being anti-vax is intellectually dishonest. This isn't Jenny McCarthy squealing about autism here. Make your choice and proceed to mind your own business folks. If the vaccine works, you shouldn't give two squats what the next person does after you.

This is so non-science I don't know what to say. It sure sounds science-y. What downside does the vaccine have? Legitimately curious. My family argued about heart inflammation, ie - a few thousand cases that quickly got better compared to 100s of millions of administered vaccines. That's the definition of 'statistically zero'. That's what you are worried about? Or is the VAERS system reported deaths?

You know we mandate kids be up on their immunizations to go to school. Because even though we get our kids immunized, we don't want some asshat who doesn't believe in vaccines giving tuberculosis a window into our world again. What downsides does the vaccine have? Links to the data please.

It sounds like your only hurdle is full FDA approval? Have no fear, final approval will happen shortly then we can all move forward with mandates, either by businesses or big brother. Why is your natural immunity better?

There are studies showing natural immunity from prior-infected individuals vs. those with the vaccine was better by an "Enormous" margin? Was this the original covid-19? Or delta? or all variants? Provide the study please.

 

[Irishize]

Fear of COVID-19 in Kids Is Getting Ahead of the Data


Shielding children from danger is a fundamental instinct. Tolerating risk for them is hard—but necessary—emotional work.
By Lucy McBride


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...rreact/619728/

 

[RDU Irish]

I really don't get it - are people so horribly insecure that they need validation for their vaccine decision? I honestly couldn't care less if someone got the shot or not as long as they leave me TF alone. Screaming at everyone else that they are stupid if they don't do what you did is just a pathetic look and horribly ineffective. The louder you scream the less people want to be associated with you. If it is so damn good people will line up for free - the more you bribe and cajole people the more untrustworthy it all looks.

Especially at a time where everyone is walking back the science and admitting vaccinated get it and spread it ..... but, but, but they don't get as sick from it. How is that any different than any normal college kid who isn't going to get very sick from it if they get it? Yet we mandate they get vaccinated for what again? And treat little kids like biohazards because they are probably less likely to spread it than a vaccinated person who gets it? There are good reasons it takes longer to get things approved for kids than adults yet we need to rush to action... for what again?

 

[ab2cmiller]

Why do all studies I reference and summarize get deleted, lol?

Are data backed studies scary?

Can a moderator confirm? Are we really deleting links that Razor is sighting?

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

AP Reporting that Biden is considering mandating vaccines for interstate travel. Idc how pro vaccine you are how can anyone be ok with this?

I’m 100% certain you were mandated a vaccine to enter primary k-12 schools. How is this any different it’s literally no inconvenience to carry proof of vaccination with you at all times.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

You are correct. We should mandate vegetables for all comrades to fight the obesity epidemic that is clogging our hospital system which makes my health insurance more expensive and might mean I can't get a doctor if I need one. Bring back prohibition too.

Thank you for proving my point how nonsensical the freedom argument is. Your analogy is incoherent.

*For the record, I'd love if the Fed Gov went to war with the sugar industry. Look at how pissy everyone got when Michelle Obama tried getting healthier foods in school lunches. The nerve!

Children are at virtually zero risk from Covid and it's variants. Healthy people have little to worry about. Less than 24 hours on a $5 steroid turned me around - we know how to treat respiratory viruses. We don't need some miracle cure, we need better transparency and awareness around when to get a damn steroid if you aren't getting better on your own. My natural immunity is totally ignored - it is superior to be vaccinated by an enormous margin. You want to mandate I get a vaccine now you are a complete science denier, yet I will probably have to do it to ever travel again (and six month boosters from the looks of things). Flu is more dangerous to me and my family - why not mandate that shot too? I have forever thought flu vaccines should be free as a matter of public health - mandates are for tyrants though.

Also anyone claiming the vaccine has zero downside is either lying or grotesquely ignorant (see how that you are dumb for not agreeing with me thing works). For children, we are arguing over forced vaccination to achieve what? Already damn close to zero in their risk, say the vaccine cuts their risk in half - what is half of zero again? Kids have so little to gain and so much more to lose in this risk/return tradeoff its ridiculous. My wife had a good month of reduced strength/mobility on half her body shortly after her second poke. Fell down a couple times. Lots of co-workers vaccinated around the same time had similar issues. You think that impacts her desire to put this shit (that they don't need) in our kids?

And equating non-FDA approved, rushed to market vaccine with being anti-vax is intellectually dishonest. This isn't Jenny McCarthy squealing about autism here. Make your choice and proceed to mind your own business folks. If the vaccine works, you shouldn't give two squats what the next person does after you.

I haven't fully made up my mind about Covid-related discussions and children. There's not a ton of data out there be it masks, deaths, long form Covid risk, vaccines, transmission, etc. I'd love some direct links if anyone has them.

But you are wrong in your assessment of the situation as a whole. You, like many others, have an individualistic mindset when the proper mindset during any type of public health crisis should be the collective. United we stand, divided we fall. Ya know, all that jazz. What may be minimal risk to you could be lethal risk to someone else. From there the mindset shifted to, "Well fine. Higher risk individuals should be vaxed, but not me." Which has opened up the door for a variant to run rampant throughout the non-vaccinated population, prolonging this pandemic. I mean honestly, if the Fed Gov came out day 1 and said vaccines are mandatory, line up, get the shot, period....this Delta variant is a non-issue. But of course. everyone's cost-benefit analysis focused only on their own lives or their own household, everyone else be damned.

Please post your data on natural immunity being far superior to a vax. The boosters are based on data coming out of Israel. Tracking antibody levels, etc. Antibody titer tests along with booster shots when necessary is common practice for tons of viruses. I don't get how that's being a science denier.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

The vaccines have done little to prevent transmission and wane over time…making the mandates useless if the goal is protecting the vaccinated.

Fauci literally said yesterday that boosters will be needed for all vaccinated individuals eventually. Are booster mandates next? When does it end?

vaccines ARE NOT CURES!

 

[ab2cmiller]

Can a moderator confirm? Are we really deleting links that Razor is sighting?

Cack? Can you please confirm.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I really don't get it - are people so horribly insecure that they need validation for their vaccine decision? I honestly couldn't care less if someone got the shot or not as long as they leave me TF alone. Screaming at everyone else that they are stupid if they don't do what you did is just a pathetic look and horribly ineffective. The louder you scream the less people want to be associated with you. If it is so damn good people will line up for free - the more you bribe and cajole people the more untrustworthy it all looks.

Especially at a time where everyone is walking back the science and admitting vaccinated get it and spread it ..... but, but, but they don't get as sick from it. How is that any different than any normal college kid who isn't going to get very sick from it if they get it? Yet we mandate they get vaccinated for what again? And treat little kids like biohazards because they are probably less likely to spread it than a vaccinated person who gets it? There are good reasons it takes longer to get things approved for kids than adults yet we need to rush to action... for what again?

Literally NO ONE with any respected knowledge on the subject said this. The vaccine effectiveness was entirely based on preventing hospitalization and death. That's it. Completely disingenuous to claim otherwise.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

vaccines ARE NOT CURES!

This.

 

[Rocket89]

I really don't get it

Clearly.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

And to add, the breakthrough case rate is like 0.07%. So this notion that the vaccines are a complete failure because you can still get it is completely ignoring the data. I think these vaccines are actually better than what people realize or are willing to admit.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Cack? Can you please confirm.

Yes. See Laxs posts #6494 #6505 for reference.

 

[RDU Irish]

This is so non-science I don't know what to say. It sure sounds science-y. What downside does the vaccine have? Legitimately curious. My family argued about heart inflammation, ie - a few thousand cases that quickly got better compared to 100s of millions of administered vaccines. That's the definition of 'statistically zero'. That's what you are worried about? Or is the VAERS system reported deaths?

You know we mandate kids be up on their immunizations to go to school. Because even though we get our kids immunized, we don't want some asshat who doesn't believe in vaccines giving tuberculosis a window into our world again. What downsides does the vaccine have? Links to the data please.

It sounds like your only hurdle is full FDA approval? Have no fear, final approval will happen shortly then we can all move forward with mandates, either by businesses or big brother. Why is your natural immunity better?

There are studies showing natural immunity from prior-infected individuals vs. those with the vaccine was better by an "Enormous" margin? Was this the original covid-19? Or delta? or all variants? Provide the study please.

So you equate the science surrounding a year of the smorgasbord of Covid vaccines to that of the decades of data supporting flu vaccine, or smallpox or MMR? SMH.

Spanish flu survivors showing antibodies 90 years later.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-per...-find-long-lived-immunity-1918-pandemic-virus

Compare to real time data - those who had it early 2020 look good while Pfizer's vaccine looks to drop below 50% effectiveness in six months. Which is why we are having a pretty big conversation around booster shots now - by conversation I mean condescending implied future mandates. And data surrounding MERS, SARS and H1N1 all support long lasting immunity as well. But six months to cut efficacy in half for Pfizer isn't a red flag at all. Not to say that could be bad data too but the over reaching theme is everyone should drop everything and bend a knee to an 80 year old Vanity Fair coverboy.

If you haven't spent your life mortified of the flu you need to STFU about this respiratory virus that is substantially less dangerous to the young and healthy, vaccinated or not.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Yes. See Laxs posts #6494 #6505 for reference.

Can you give me different post numbers as your post is only 6473

 

[RDU Irish]

Thank you for proving my point how nonsensical the freedom argument is. Your analogy is incoherent.

*For the record, I'd love if the Fed Gov went to war with the sugar industry. Look at how pissy everyone got when Michelle Obama tried getting healthier foods in school lunches. The nerve!



I haven't fully made up my mind about Covid-related discussions and children. There's not a ton of data out there be it masks, deaths, long form Covid risk, vaccines, transmission, etc. I'd love some direct links if anyone has them.

But you are wrong in your assessment of the situation as a whole. You, like many others, have an individualistic mindset when the proper mindset during any type of public health crisis should be the collective. United we stand, divided we fall. Ya know, all that jazz. What may be minimal risk to you could be lethal risk to someone else. From there the mindset shifted to, "Well fine. Higher risk individuals should be vaxed, but not me." Which has opened up the door for a variant to run rampant throughout the non-vaccinated population, prolonging this pandemic. I mean honestly, if the Fed Gov came out day 1 and said vaccines are mandatory, line up, get the shot, period....this Delta variant is a non-issue. But of course. everyone's cost-benefit analysis focused only on their own lives or their own household, everyone else be damned.

Please post your data on natural immunity being far superior to a vax. The boosters are based on data coming out of Israel. Tracking antibody levels, etc. Antibody titer tests along with booster shots when necessary is common practice for tons of viruses. I don't get how that's being a science denier.

Individualism is freedom. Collectivism is socialism. Congrats on finding your cudgel in a vaccine. Resistance is futile.

Blaming the variant on non-compliance of vaccines is quite hysterical. You can just as easily hypothesize the vaccine promoted variants that could work around the manufactured immunity more easily than natural immunity - which makes is logical on a very common sense level. Reality is, virus gonna virus. Which includes mutating to survive. The standard chain of mutation is to find a balance of less lethal and more contagious. Surprise, Delta looks less lethal and more contagious. Yet here you are more worried about mandating an uninspiring Pfizer jab than annual flu shots.

As to the bolded - you bet your ass it is. GFY if you admit you are inflicting harm on my family for your own selfish benefit.

 

[TorontoGold]

So you equate the science surrounding a year of the smorgasbord of Covid vaccines to that of the decades of data supporting flu vaccine, or smallpox or MMR? SMH.

Spanish flu survivors showing antibodies 90 years later.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-per...-find-long-lived-immunity-1918-pandemic-virus

Compare to real time data - those who had it early 2020 look good while Pfizer's vaccine looks to drop below 50% effectiveness in six months. Which is why we are having a pretty big conversation around booster shots now - by conversation I mean condescending implied future mandates. And data surrounding MERS, SARS and H1N1 all support long lasting immunity as well. But six months to cut efficacy in half for Pfizer isn't a red flag at all. Not to say that could be bad data too but the over reaching theme is everyone should drop everything and bend a knee to an 80 year old Vanity Fair coverboy.

If you haven't spent your life mortified of the flu you need to STFU about this respiratory virus that is substantially less dangerous to the young and healthy, vaccinated or not.

Isn't the booster shot discussion because of the rate of mutation (a real healthcare professional can confirm/deny)? The red flag should be that the virus is mutating so fast that boosters are needed.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Can you give me different post numbers as your post is only 6473

That’s weird. I must have different post numbers. They are two of Laxs recent posts on the page before. It’s pretty clear what he says. You can also Pm him if you have further questions which would be appreciated rather than clogging up the thread.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Individualism is freedom. Collectivism is socialism. Congrats on finding your cudgel in a vaccine. Resistance is futile.

Blaming the variant on non-compliance of vaccines is quite hysterical. You can just as easily hypothesize the vaccine promoted variants that could work around the manufactured immunity more easily than natural immunity - which makes is logical on a very common sense level. Reality is, virus gonna virus. Which includes mutating to survive. The standard chain of mutation is to find a balance of less lethal and more contagious. Surprise, Delta looks less lethal and more contagious. Yet here you are more worried about mandating an uninspiring Pfizer jab than annual flu shots.

As to the bolded - you bet your ass it is. GFY if you admit you are inflicting harm on my family for your own selfish benefit.

Collectivism during a time of crisis is called Solidarity. Standing together to fight a common enemy.

WTF are you talking about? Blaming the variant on non-compliance? Unvaccinated people make up like 99.9% of hospitalizations and deaths right now. Yes, viruses mutate to survive. Yes, the delta is essentially what you'd expect out of a mutation. But that doesn't mean it can't be more lethal than other variants (which it is) and it's why it's wreaking havoc on the UNvaccinated population. How is the Pfizer jab uninspiring? Your ignorance is downright spiteful at this point. The annual flu shots btw, are like 35% effective. Idk why you keep bringing up the flu.

Your bolded statement isn't worthy of a response. Inflicting harm for my own selfish benefit? WTF man.

 

[RDU Irish]

Literally NO ONE with any respected knowledge on the subject said this. The vaccine effectiveness was entirely based on preventing hospitalization and death. That's it. Completely disingenuous to claim otherwise.

So your stance is, from day one, nobody promoted vaccines as no longer making the vaccinated a spreader. This Cleveland Clinic article (that I think is a good primer for most) states variants as the reason for a pivot. No pivot needed if it was never sold that way....

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/c...-19-to-others/
"At one point, we thought that being fully vaccinated meant we could leave our masks behind and go back to the normal that we’ve been longing for."

I really wish we could detour from this land of preventing possibilities and get back to a world of probabilities. It is possible to win the lottery, it is also foolish to plan your life based on that possibility coming to fruition.

 

[TorontoGold]

So your stance is, from day one, nobody promoted vaccines as no longer making the vaccinated a spreader. This Cleveland Clinic article (that I think is a good primer for most) states variants as the reason for a pivot. No pivot needed if it was never sold that way....

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/c...-19-to-others/
"At one point, we thought that being fully vaccinated meant we could leave our masks behind and go back to the normal that we’ve been longing for."

I really wish we could detour from this land of preventing possibilities and get back to a world of probabilities. It is possible to win the lottery, it is also foolish to plan your life based on that possibility coming to fruition.

From the same article "No vaccine offers 100% protection against illness"

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Good lord guys. Do not post links to print out vaccination cards. They will be taken down immediately. Use of a fake vaccination record card is a criminal act with penalties of fines and jail time. If you lose your card you can get it from an appropriate authority.