2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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Irish YJ

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You accuse me of ignoring the opinion of half, yet you prescribe ignoring everyone and "burning it all down," whatever that nonsense means. "People like me" think that is a nutty and unproductive notion. And we think that when people in a debate run out of productive things to say they resort to silly ideas and insults. You keep telling yourself that every liberal is some kind of pie in the sky utopian extremist because they don't agree with you. You be you, dude. And by all means Cerci, burn that shit down. See you in November as you are sweeping up the ashes.

Most of my friends are liberal. They are moderates, not sermon on the mount types like you. We get along just fine.

tell you what, take immigration.... lay out both sides of the extreme views from let'em all in, to build the wall,..... and give me a good middle ground position. that's what i want.
 

GoIrish41

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Most of my friends are liberal. They are moderates, not sermon on the mount types like you. We get along just fine.

tell you what, take immigration.... lay out both sides of the extreme views from let'em all in, to build the wall,..... and give me a good middle ground position. that's what i want.

Let's talk about immigration then and one of the best things Reagan did. He realized the value of immigrants and granted amnesty to allow them to be productive members of society instead of seeking to divide people up into catagories like Trump, and let's face it ... a whole lot of Republicans. These days, someone would be considered an ISIS sympathizer to the right if they advocated the Reagan route. The GOP has consistently moved the goal posts to the right and now they call foul when liberals object to their extreme positions on immigration, like building walls, mass deportations of 11 million and banning in Muslims. Republicans seem to want their current ideas to be considered the new normal. They are not. And the moment we accept that they are, we lose ground as a nation. What was once center left is now portrayed as wildly liberal. It's not. If we give in to the notion that it is we become something other than the country I have lived in for 51 years, where most everyone was some shade of moderate and we could find common ground on most issues. You might believe that a government that works for the good of everyone is a wacky extremist idea. I don't. I think it is far superior to one that works for a select few at the expense of everyone else.
 
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drayer54

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“Under a modeled electorate, Trump loses every swing state by 6-12 points. Governor Kasich wins 6 out of 7 swing states. Speaker Ryan wins 2 out of 7 swing states,” wrote John Weaver, Kasich’s former senior campaign adviser, in an email to supporters. “This data is just further proof that Governor Kasich is the most popular Republican politician in the nation today and it underlines why his efforts to help our U.S. Senate and House candidates are so very important."

Read more: Kasich camp on Trump's poll woes: Told you so - POLITICO


Nope, we gotta stick with the wall guy! He's rich!

brickwall.jpg
 

pumpdog20

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The buyers remorse that is playing out right now should serve as a cautionary tale for our country, no. The crashing of the stock market and the subsequent credit downgrade demonstrate that impulsively listening to bluster might not be the best way to go. It doesn't help that leaders of the movement almost immediately revealed that there is no real plan to move forward, and maybe just bitching about what is wrong is not enough.

I'm not ignoring people's problems ... that is the nearly exclusive territory of the GOP, whose standard line is "pull yourself up by your bootstraps you lazy, deadbeat takers." I've consistently pointed out the republican dismissal of the poor and middle class since these political threads were created. I have also pointed out how foolish those folks are who support policies that are so clearly contrary to their best interests. I talk frequently about the racial politics that have revealed themselves here and across the pond when the most ignorant among us feel empowered by bigoted politicians who pedal blame instead of coherent policies. I "snicker" because of the speed at which the bullshit of these idiots was exposed was breathtaking. Anyone who sees what happened overseas and wants it to happen here is crazy.

The FTSE is actually higher right now than before the vote...
 

phgreek

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The buyers remorse that is playing out right now should serve as a cautionary tale for our country, no. The crashing of the stock market and the subsequent credit downgrade demonstrate that impulsively listening to bluster might not be the best way to go. It doesn't help that leaders of the movement almost immediately revealed that there is no real plan to move forward, and maybe just bitching about what is wrong is not enough.

I'm not ignoring people's problems ... that is the nearly exclusive territory of the GOP, whose standard line is "pull yourself up by your bootstraps you lazy, deadbeat takers." I've consistently pointed out the republican dismissal of the poor and middle class since these political threads were created. I have also pointed out how foolish those folks are who support policies that are so clearly contrary to their best interests. I talk frequently about the racial politics that have revealed themselves here and across the pond when the most ignorant among us feel empowered by bigoted politicians who pedal blame instead of coherent policies. I "snicker" because of the speed at which the bullshit of these idiots was exposed was breathtaking. Anyone who sees what happened overseas and wants it to happen here is crazy.

...yea...not so much. I don't think the market is doing so bad...but I bought some shit on sale for two days because the market is full of overreacting bitches...hehehehehehehe.
 

phgreek

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Let's talk about immigration then and one of the best things Reagan did. He realized the value of immigrants and granted amnesty to allow them to be productive members of society instead of seeking to divide people up into catagories like Trump, and let's face it ... a whole lot of Republicans. These days, someone would be considered an ISIS sympathizer to the right if they advocated the Reagan route. The GOP has consistently moved the goal posts to the right and now they call foul when liberals object to their extreme positions on immigration, like building walls, mass deportations of 11 million and banning in Muslims. Republicans seem to want their current ideas to be considered the new normal. They are not. And the moment we accept that they are, we lose ground as a nation. What was once center left is now portrayed as wildly liberal. It's not. If we give in to the notion that it is we become something other than the country I have lived in for 51 years, where most everyone was some shade of moderate and we could find common ground on most issues. You might believe that a government that works for the good of everyone is a wacky extremist idea. I don't. I think it is far superior to one that works for a select few at the expense of everyone else.

Yea...no...he granted amnesty to end the bullshit...and it failed because the enforcement promise to the amnesty gift was never kept...so we aren't going to do that again.

First enforcement and REAL border control, then actionable, supportable controls on businesses, THEN, some time spent thinking about making it easier to come here legally...in that order, or all you are is pitching more of the same unsupportable bullshit.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/01/30/in-1986-congress-tried-to-solve-immigration-why-didnt-it-work/
 

phgreek

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“Under a modeled electorate, Trump loses every swing state by 6-12 points. Governor Kasich wins 6 out of 7 swing states. Speaker Ryan wins 2 out of 7 swing states,” wrote John Weaver, Kasich’s former senior campaign adviser, in an email to supporters. “This data is just further proof that Governor Kasich is the most popular Republican politician in the nation today and it underlines why his efforts to help our U.S. Senate and House candidates are so very important."

Read more: Kasich camp on Trump's poll woes: Told you so - POLITICO


Nope, we gotta stick with the wall guy! He's rich!

brickwall.jpg

Funny and tragic...Kasich was a path to recovery...real recovery. SAD.
 

phgreek

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not buying that. they had an agenda from the start. before 9/11. they didn't listen to the intelligence. they tried to force intelligence apparatus to manufacture intelligence to fit their agenda.

Lie by Lie: A Timeline of How We Got Into Iraq | Mother Jones

I can accept Bush was eager for a fight with Husein. Would need to do more research on it to get where you are...I think after 9/11 you take a despot at his word...he talks shit, he gets flattened...shrug. I don't like regime change...I do like my despots in fear though.
 

kmoose

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Let's talk about immigration then and one of the best things Reagan did. He realized the value of immigrants and granted amnesty to allow them to be productive members of society instead of seeking to divide people up into catagories like Trump, and let's face it ... a whole lot of Republicans. These days, someone would be considered an ISIS sympathizer to the right if they advocated the Reagan route. The GOP has consistently moved the goal posts to the right and now they call foul when liberals object to their extreme positions on immigration, like building walls, mass deportations of 11 million and banning in Muslims. Republicans seem to want their current ideas to be considered the new normal. They are not. And the moment we accept that they are, we lose ground as a nation. What was once center left is now portrayed as wildly liberal. It's not. If we give in to the notion that it is we become something other than the country I have lived in for 51 years, where most everyone was some shade of moderate and we could find common ground on most issues. You might believe that a government that works for the good of everyone is a wacky extremist idea. I don't. I think it is far superior to one that works for a select few at the expense of everyone else.

I'm pretty sure he asked you to lay out the extreme position at both ends, and give him something in the middle that will work. Instead, you posted a diatribe on the GOP.
 

phgreek

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HA...yea they talked about grand kids... Won't matter though. The lemmings will defend it as an honest mistake...blah, blah, blah. I am beginning to doubt the integrity of Loretta Lynch...seems to me she is falling right in with the Clinton way...shame.

The part I thoroughly enjoyed...When CBS people get their undies in a bunch, that makes me laugh. Its like Dr. Frankenstein being appalled at the Monster...Whatever.
 

GoIrish41

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I'm pretty sure he asked you to lay out the extreme position at both ends, and give him something in the middle that will work. Instead, you posted a diatribe on the GOP.

And I said "wall" bullshit wasn't a real position and treating it like one moves the compromise position to where the right has always been and gives the impression that the traditional liberal position is an extreme. Follow along.
 
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Irish YJ

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I'm pretty sure he asked you to lay out the extreme position at both ends, and give him something in the middle that will work. Instead, you posted a diatribe on the GOP.

Yup lol. He just proved my point and delivered another sermon from the mount.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Let's talk about immigration then and one of the best things Reagan did. He realized the value of immigrants and granted amnesty to allow them to be productive members of society instead of seeking to divide people up into catagories like Trump, and let's face it ... a whole lot of Republicans. These days, someone would be considered an ISIS sympathizer to the right if they advocated the Reagan route. The GOP has consistently moved the goal posts to the right and now they call foul when liberals object to their extreme positions on immigration, like building walls, mass deportations of 11 million and banning in Muslims. Republicans seem to want their current ideas to be considered the new normal. They are not. And the moment we accept that they are, we lose ground as a nation. What was once center left is now portrayed as wildly liberal. It's not. If we give in to the notion that it is we become something other than the country I have lived in for 51 years, where most everyone was some shade of moderate and we could find common ground on most issues. You might believe that a government that works for the good of everyone is a wacky extremist idea. I don't. I think it is far superior to one that works for a select few at the expense of everyone else.

1) What Reagan did with immigration failed and he later regretted the decision.

2) You leftists talk about a wall like a Nazi concentration camp. All we want is the federal government to enforce our immigration laws. We want legal immigration.

3) No one thinks deporting 11 million is realistic.

4) No one is talking about banning Muslims. Trump suggested we put this mass importation on hold until we know who exactly we're bringing in and what kind of background they have. My guess is if we were importing these "refugees" to your daughter's college campus, you wouldn't have a problem with Trump's proposal.

This is why you've caught so much crap on here lately. Not only have you drifted left of Bernie, you inaccurately describe the opposition's positions/ ideas like above, you're insulting people, and it's 100% clear you hold Republicans to different standards than Democrats. Obama can do whatever he wants with his phone and pen, but Trump in the White House would need Congress' approval for his plans.

I really used to enjoy debating with you, but in the past 6 months something has changed on your end.
 

GoIrish41

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1) What Reagan did with immigration failed and he later regretted the decision.

Point is that Reagan did not throw down a line in the sand and refuse to budge. He recognized a problem and was willing to work toward a solution. His party crucifies anyone of its own who tries to do the same. Don't take my word for it. Ask Rubio what he thinks after getting blasted for trying to work with Dems to find a way ahead. The GOP has become too rigid, not only on immigration, but on everything. They have actively worked to obstruct government throughout Obama's administration. The "my way or the highway" approach has made the majority Republican Congress the least popular institution in America, and the most disfunctional legislative branch in history.

2) You leftists talk about a wall like a Nazi concentration camp. All we want is the federal government to enforce our immigration laws. We want legal immigration.

And you guys act as if the Democrats want a free for all, where any swinging dick can come into the country to blow shit up. It's ludicrous. And you complain because I'm insulting people? Give me a break. I've been listening to this garbage from you guys for years. The fact of the matter is that the laws are arcane and outdated and need updated. We "leftists" want that to happen. Talk of a wall is not helpful and inflames ignorant dialogue that pushes the two sides further apart. Not to mention that it is an unrealistic, ineffective, and comically expensive proposition.

3) No one thinks deporting 11 million is realistic.

Really? Then why did the GOP's candidate for President of the United States propose it? He seems to have gotten a whole lot of people behind the this idea than no one thinks is realistic.

4) No one is talking about banning Muslims. Trump suggested we put this mass importation on hold until we know who exactly we're bringing in and what kind of background they have. My guess is if we were importing these "refugees" to your daughter's college campus, you wouldn't have a problem with Trump's proposal.

What Trump is proposing is putting a religious test in place as a determining factor as to whether people can enter the country. He ignores that there are already rigourous background checks in place for refugees specifically, and immigrants in general. Temporary or not, a religious test seems a whole lot like he wants to ban Muslims.

This is why you've caught so much crap on here lately. Not only have you drifted left of Bernie, you inaccurately describe the opposition's positions/ ideas like above, you're insulting people, and it's 100% clear you hold Republicans to different standards than Democrats. Obama can do whatever he wants with his phone and pen, but Trump in the White House would need Congress' approval for his plans.

Nonsense. I haven't drifted anywhere. I am where I have always been -- at the left of the political spectrum. If I was so inclined, I could go back through the political threads and find hundreds of examples of insulting shit that people have said to me -- resorting to petty namecalling when I disagree with right leaning positions. I'm past the point with some of you guys of worrying about whether I'm insulting you. It's been clear for a long time that you haven't given me the same consideration you seem to expect from me.

I can also point to dozens of instances in which I have disagreed with Obama and how he's done things. I'm not going to be a lunatic "crazy uncle on Facebook" guy and repeat every conspiracy theory you want to dwell on because I think its mostly bullshit republican propoganda. You think the fact that I disagree with Republicans means that I hold them to a different standard, then go ahead and think it.

I really used to enjoy debating with you, but in the past 6 months something has changed on your end.

See above.
 
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irishroo

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Let's talk about immigration then and one of the best things Reagan did. He realized the value of immigrants and granted amnesty to allow them to be productive members of society instead of seeking to divide people up into catagories like Trump, and let's face it ... a whole lot of Republicans. These days, someone would be considered an ISIS sympathizer to the right if they advocated the Reagan route. The GOP has consistently moved the goal posts to the right and now they call foul when liberals object to their extreme positions on immigration, like building walls, mass deportations of 11 million and banning in Muslims. Republicans seem to want their current ideas to be considered the new normal. They are not. And the moment we accept that they are, we lose ground as a nation. What was once center left is now portrayed as wildly liberal. It's not. If we give in to the notion that it is we become something other than the country I have lived in for 51 years, where most everyone was some shade of moderate and we could find common ground on most issues. You might believe that a government that works for the good of everyone is a wacky extremist idea. I don't. I think it is far superior to one that works for a select few at the expense of everyone else.

You're just going to completely ignore the fact that Bernie Sanders, the most ideologically extreme major party candidate in our country's history, was considered a completely viable Democratic presidential nominee for a large chunk of this cycle? Interesting tactic
 

kmoose

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4) No one is talking about banning Muslims. Trump suggested we put this mass importation on hold until we know who exactly we're bringing in and what kind of background they have. My guess is if we were importing these "refugees" to your daughter's college campus, you wouldn't have a problem with Trump's proposal.

To be fair, Trump has talked about banning Muslims, but you are right in that it was not a permanent proposal. It was only supposed to be in effect until we had a plan to vet those coming in. But it's much easier to scream "RACIST!!" if you just let people believe that he wants to permanently ban them all.
 

GoIrish41

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You're just going to completely ignore the fact that Bernie Sanders, the most ideologically extreme major party candidate in our country's history, was considered a completely viable Democratic presidential nominee for a large chunk of this cycle? Interesting tactic

Go read up on FDR before you make such broad statements. He put very popular socialist programs in place that are helping Americans to this day like Social Security. Or his uncle Teddy, a Republican, who not only talked about busting up large companies that were taking advantage of people but actually busting them up. Also might want to take a look at LBJ's Great Society, Civil Rights Act, establishment of Head Start, food stamps, Medicare and Medicaid.

Abraham Lincoln, whom modern Republicans like to remind us was a Republican, was not only an impressive vampire hunter but he eliminated the scurge of slavary. I hear there was a lot of pushback on that at the time. Lincoln also had a healthy skepticism about corporate greed that sounds almost profetic today. He said, "I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country ... corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the predudices of the people until all wealth is agregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed." Fucking communist!

Richard Nixon proposed remarkably liberal ideas, such as wage and price controls, reverse income taxes for low-income people, and his affirmative action executive order.

Sanders is proposing ideas that worked in this country and is smart enough to look to other countries that have put effective liberal policies in place to help people live better lives. He was a viable Democratic presidential candidate because he is proposing a direction with a proven track record, not offering more of the same policies that have led us to where we are today. Most ideologically extreme blah, blah, blah ... there is nothing new under the sun, my friend.
 
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irishroo

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Go read up on FDR before you make such statements. He put socialist programs in place that are helping Americans to this day. Or his uncle, a Republican, who not only talked about busting up large companies that were taking advantage of people but actually busting them up.

Don't tell me to "go read up" on things when you're so clearly not well-read by any stretch of the imagination. Just as an example, FDR and Teddy were distant cousins, not uncle/nephew.

FDR enacted the New Deal in order to get us out of the greatest economic crisis in this country's history. According to Bernie's own party, our economy is great right now. Unemployment is low, the markets are soaring (with a slight hiccup from Brexit that will undoubtedly be corrected via central bank assistance), and everyone has healthcare. So what exactly is Bernie putting forth these policies as a response to? Additionally, FDR's greatest lasting achievement, Social Security, is more or less a ponzi scheme that is in dire shape. Go read the most recent report from the SSA if you don't believe me.

Teddy, for my admittedly small amount of pocket change, is the best US president since Lincoln. He was able to effectively blend what we would now call competing ideologies - his Square Deal was undoubtedly what would now be considered liberal, while his views on immigration were what would now be considered conservative ("We must Americanize in every way, in speech, in political ideas and principles, and in their way of looking at relations between church and state"). This is what I want in a president - someone who can look at issues independent of his/her beliefs on other issues and decide what is the best course of action on that particular issue. Unfortunately, neither party this go-around has put forth a candidate who comes close to matching that description.

Finally - and this is the point I really want to get across - the reason you're apparently catching a lot of "heat" is because you seem to have taken up what has unforrunately become the standard mode of political discourse (on both sides of the aisle) in the US: you don't seem to even attempt to understand the actual reasoning behind many of the positions you argue against, instead preferring to assume that they arise from selfishness, hatred, or some other negative emotion. For example, gay marriage supporters (I am included in this group) often portray those opposed to gay marriage as holding this position due to bigotry or some sort of disapproval. While there are undoubtedly people who do oppose gay marriage for those reasons, the actual reason many oppose gay marriage is because they believe marriage to be a religious, rather than governmental, institution and therefore the government should have no right to define a religious institution. This obviously happens on both sides of our political spectrum - it's no different than the scores of conservatives dismissing all Bernie Sanders, large welfare-state supporters as only supporting such ideals because they're lazy and don't want to work for their money rather than their genuine beliefs that these ideals are legitimately the best way help the truly unfortunate among our society and strengthen our overall economy. This is simply a dishonest way of looking at your opposition.
 

GoIrish41

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Don't tell me to "go read up" on things when you're so clearly not well-read by any stretch of the imagination. Just as an example, FDR and Teddy were distant cousins, not uncle/nephew.

FDR enacted the New Deal in order to get us out of the greatest economic crisis in this country's history. According to Bernie's own party, our economy is great right now. Unemployment is low, the markets are soaring (with a slight hiccup from Brexit that will undoubtedly be corrected via central bank assistance), and everyone has healthcare. So what exactly is Bernie putting forth these policies as a response to? Additionally, FDR's greatest lasting achievement, Social Security, is more or less a ponzi scheme that is in dire shape. Go read the most recent report from the SSA if you don't believe me.

Teddy, for my admittedly small amount of pocket change, is the best US president since Lincoln. He was able to effectively blend what we would now call competing ideologies - his Square Deal was undoubtedly what would now be considered liberal, while his views on immigration were what would now be considered conservative ("We must Americanize in every way, in speech, in political ideas and principles, and in their way of looking at relations between church and state"). This is what I want in a president - someone who can look at issues independent of his/her beliefs on other issues and decide what is the best course of action on that particular issue. Unfortunately, neither party this go-around has put forth a candidate who comes close to matching that description.

Finally - and this is the point I really want to get across - the reason you're apparently catching a lot of "heat" is because you seem to have taken up what has unforrunately become the standard mode of political discourse (on both sides of the aisle) in the US: you don't seem to even attempt to understand the actual reasoning behind many of the positions you argue against, instead preferring to assume that they arise from selfishness, hatred, or some other negative emotion. For example, gay marriage supporters (I am included in this group) often portray those opposed to gay marriage as holding this position due to bigotry or some sort of disapproval. While there are undoubtedly people who do oppose gay marriage for those reasons, the actual reason many oppose gay marriage is because they believe marriage to be a religious, rather than governmental, institution and therefore the government should have no right to define a religious institution. This obviously happens on both sides of our political spectrum - it's no different than the scores of conservatives dismissing all Bernie Sanders, large welfare-state supporters as only supporting such ideals because they're lazy and don't want to work for their money rather than their genuine beliefs that these ideals are legitimately the best way help the truly unfortunate among our society and strengthen our overall economy. This is simply a dishonest way of looking at your opposition.

I mis-spoke on FDR's relationship to Teddy. My bad. You mis-spoke on "everyone has healthcare," when clearly that is not the case. The, "they can go to the emergency room" argument is not productive. True access to healthcare in this country comes from having health insurance, which millions of people remain without in this country. You also mis-spoke on Bernie's contention that "the economy is great right now." While that may be true at the top end, his entire candidacy was built on the fact that the economy is not working for millions of Americans and that it is rigged for the rich.

You can call Social Security whatever you wish, it is still the most popular and effective social program in this country's history and has helped millions of Americans from living in poverty as they age. It's dire shape has more to do with politicians robbing its funds to pay for other things than anything else, which, of course, is beside the point. It is a socialist program that has helped people. I was, afterall, responding to your point about Bernie Sanders being the "most ideolically extreme major candidate in this country's history." I offered a number of examples to demonstrate why I disagree with that point. I think that your assertion about Bernie is an overstatement -- there have been several major presidential candidates that have been considered more ideologically extreme (especially in their own time). On Teddy Roosevelt, I fully agree that he is one of the nation's greatest presidents, and I said so not a week or two ago in this very thread.

On the "taking heat" piece. I don't know how long you have been on IE or how often you visit the politics threads, but it generally the usual suspects on here arguing about the issues and "the game" of politics. I have tried to avoid fighting with people about these issues, and have generally not posted with hostility unless I'm attacked. But if you are a regular, you would know that happens with far too much frequency. You would also know that the views of the people that generally come here are pretty well established, and opinions of them have been discussed ad naseum. Conclusions have been reached on specific individuals' opinions of specific issues. I can see how a person popping in on this thread would conclude that responses are in a vacuum, but, at least from me, they are not. They are an attempt to not plod over old ground and cut to the chase. The fact that I'm a liberal should not shade your understanding that those on the other side aisle do precisely the same.

As this is a discussion board, I freely express my opinions and views on these topics civilly and enjoy hearing all of the views of those with diverging views. So, with that, your observation that I "don't seem to even attempt to understand the actual reasoning behind many of the positions you argue against" could not be further from the truth. Indeed, it is the sole reason I'm in this thread to begin with -- to understand why those who disagree, disagree. That is not to say that their reasoning will necessarily change my point of view, although it has been known to happen on occassion, as several more persuasive posters who frequent these threads will attest. But "old dog, new tricks" generally applies with me, to be sure. At any rate, I enjoy your approach to explaining your position. You should post more often in here. We could use some new perspectives.
 
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