2016 Presidential Horse Race

[Buster Bluth]

What the fuck? Just because it's a small percentage of TOTAL deaths doesn't make the lives of those murdered by illegals irrelevant. "Murdered on 9/11" wouldn't be statistically significant enough to make it on that chart either, so maybe we should just ignore terrorism as well?

Actually it would have been a tremendous benefit for us to reconsider our reaction to 9/11. In case you missed it, we gave ourselves carte blanche and went ahead and tried to reorganize the Middle East in a neoconservative image. It completely backfired and more people died in our reaction than died on 9/11. I mean what is the number in Iraq, 250,000+, and climbing due to ISIS? And what will the war cost the United States alone, $2-6 trillion?

Yeah let me go ahead and double-down on suggesting that we not overreact and give in to fear politics.

1. We're talking about a wall, not mass deportation.

2. Build the wall, put in eVerify, and they'll leave on their own. The reason they're staying is because it's economically advantageous to do so. We're basically paying to import unskilled labor. That's brainless.

What does the wall do that eVerify wouldn't?

One might argue it's brainless to spend even just $10 billion trying to keep out unskilled labor...

 

[woolybug25]

Illegal immigrants account for 12% of murder convictions in the United States. There were 14,000 homicides in the US in 2013. That puts about 1,700 per year committed by illegal immigrants. That's the equivalent of 9/11 every other year.

On second look, you literally just pulled that number out of your arse. I tried confirming it and couldn't find anything that remotely gave me that kind of percentage. Here is the FBI data that shows that in 2011 less than 3% of the murder convictions in the US were committed by a race other than black or white.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-1

 

[wizards8507]

Yes, that is why before there was Social Security, all the elderly people benefitted greatly from the private investments they made during their working lives? Oh, that's right, that didn't happen.

If you can't be bothered to save for retirement, that's on you. But people have paid in, fine. Let them keep it. Just let those of us with a few brain cells to rub together to opt out. I'll sign whatever waivers they want me to sign. If I make bad investments and lose my nest egg, that's on me.

Just as it wouldn't happen today because, in case you haven't heard, all the money is going to the top 1% while everyone else's real wages are stagnant as prices continue to climb.

That's not now money works. The rich getting richer does not make the poor poorer because the total number of real dollars in an economy is not stagnant. It's not a fixed pie. By the way, the real people who are getting rich on the backs of the working- and middle-class is the political industry in Washington, DC.

You are talking about one of the most successful anti-poverty programs in American history (always a government run program) at the same time you are saying that the government can't do anything right.

Except it's not an anti-poverty system and it never has been! Even its supporters never sold it as such. You take money from people and then give that money back to the same people with a shitty return. That's not anti-poverty because there's no creation of wealth. It's just shuffling paper.

On second look, you literally just pulled that number out of your arse. I tried confirming it and couldn't find anything that remotely gave me that kind of percentage. Here is the FBI data that shows that in 2011 less than 3% of the murder convictions in the US were committed by a race other than black or white.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-1

I posted the source. The FBI and the GAO can't agree on who's murdering people in America.

 

[pkt77242]

First on CNN: Marco Rubio prepares for contested convention - CNNPolitics.com

 

[woolybug25]

It's official government sources.

http://www.gao.gov/assets/320/316959.pdf

I went through that brief and didn't see one mention of percentages of total murders in the US by immigrants or a 12% number for homicides. I even searched the 64 total times the number "12" was listed in the brief... nope... not one referred to a percentage of murders by immigrants.

Did you just google the first immigration murder link you could find?

 

[woolybug25]

I posted the source. The FBI and the GAO can't agree on who's murdering people in America.

Your source was bullshit, see above.

 

[Cackalacky]

Social Security and the percent of elderly people in poverty are directly correlated.

 

[Buster Bluth]

If you can't be bothered to save for retirement, that's on you. But people have paid in, fine. Let them keep it. Just let those of us with a few brain cells to rub together to opt out. I'll sign whatever waivers they want me to sign. If I make bad investments and lose my nest egg, that's on me.

I see you've gone with the "millions of elderly poor? Doesn't matter their fault." option.

That's not now money works. The rich getting richer does not make the poor poorer because the total number of real dollars in an economy is not stagnant. It's not a fixed pie. By the way, the real people who are getting rich on the backs of the working- and middle-class is the political industry in Washington, DC.

Are you really trying to suggest that the amount of money accumulated by the 1% is less than or even on par with the "political industry" in DC?

Except it's not an anti-poverty system and it never has been! Even its supporters never sold it as such. You take money from people and then give that money back to the same people with a shitty return. That's not anti-poverty because there's no creation of wealth. It's just shuffling paper.

Are you trolling?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVZijG4WSOw&feature=youtu.be&t=79

FDR: "some measure of protection for the average citizen and his family against the loss of a job and against poverty-stricken old age"

 

[wizards8507]

First on CNN: Marco Rubio prepares for contested convention - CNNPolitics.com

I would hope they all are. It would be a nightmare for the Party though. If Trump leads in delegates and a contested convention goes to someone else, he's definitely going third party.

I went through that brief and didn't see one mention of percentages of total murders in the US by immigrants or a 12% number for homicides. I even searched the 64 total times the number "12" was listed in the brief... nope... not one referred to a percentage of murders by immigrants.

Did you just google the first immigration murder link you could find?

*Sigh.* The 12% is from this article. I didn't want to deal with the libs on this board with the "FOX LIES!" shit, so I went to one of the sources the article references. They reference a number of other sources if you feel like recreating their math.

FoxNews.com did review reports from immigration reform groups and various government agencies, including the U.S. Census Bureau, U.S. Sentencing Commission, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the Government Accountability Office, the Bureau of Justice Statistics and several state and county correctional departments. Statistics show the estimated 11.7 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. account for 13.6 percent of all offenders sentenced for crimes committed in the U.S. Twelve percent of murder sentences, 20 percent of kidnapping sentences and 16 percent of drug trafficking sentences are meted out to illegal immigrants.

Elusive crime wave data shows frightening toll of illegal immigrant criminals | Fox News

 

[kmoose]

People keep saying, "why not, let's just give it a shot to see if it works". It's not like we are spending five bucks at a fast food joint we have never tried, we are talking about BILLIONS of tax payer dollars.

I think people are saying that based on the premise that Trump(he's the only one seriously advocating it to the point where he says he WILL) is going to get the money from Mexico somehow. Whether that is going to come from increased tariffs on production that moves from the US to Mexico, or if he cuts it out of their foreign aid... if it doesn't cost the taxpayers any more money than they are paying now, then I think that's why people are willing to see what we can do.

I'm not advocating for a wall. I'm just saying that most of the rhetoric against it out there is faulty, in my mind. That's not to say that there is nothing faulty about the rhetoric for it, either:

If Trump gives 100 less M-16s and 2 less F-16s to Mexico, then says that Mexico paid for the $30B to build it, then that's not true. We still paid for it, unless we end up selling those things that we withheld from Mexico for $30B.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Social Security and the percent of elderly people in poverty are directly correlated.

Yeah but who cares, the Founding Fathers, in a time before people knew what germs were, didn't specifically call for the creation of social security so it's pure nonsense and we shouldn't care about poverty anyway because wealth inequality is a good thing.

 

[wizards8507]

Social Security and the percent of elderly people in poverty are directly correlated.

The federal government defines poverty, of course they're correlated. That's like saying the percentage of applicants admitted to Notre Dame is correlated to the number of students the administration wants in each class. That doesn't prove anything, it's self-evident.

Yeah but who cares, the Founding Fathers, in a time before people knew what germs were, didn't specifically call for the creation of social security so it's pure nonsense and we shouldn't care about poverty anyway because wealth inequality is a good thing.

See this is the problem. You refuse to argue in good faith. I believe you want what's best for people, I just disagree with your proposed policies to achieve that end. You don't even recognize that I also want what's best for people.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Illegal immigrants account for 12% of murder convictions in the United States. There were 14,000 homicides in the US in 2013. That puts about 1,700 per year committed by illegal immigrants. That's the equivalent of 9/11 every other year.

Nope.

 

[woolybug25]

*Sigh.* The 12% is from this article. I didn't want to deal with the libs on this board with the "FOX LIES!" shit, so I went to one of the sources the article references. They reference a number of other sources if you feel like recreating their math.



Elusive crime wave data shows frightening toll of illegal immigrant criminals | Fox News

So you really just read some bullshit on Fox and spit it out with a reference that wasn't actually real? That's the fact, because the link you provided not once said that 12% of total murders were from immigrants. In fact, it never even addressed what percentage it was. You even went as far as to break it down to the level of convictions instead of charges.

You lied. Plain and simple. According the FBI statistics that ACTUALLY ADDRESS IT that I linked, the number that your hackjob Fox News article spun couldn't possibly be accurate.

Ya know... when I do something stupid or get proven embarrassingly wrong, I tuck tail and apologize. It would be nice to see that from you once in a while.

 

[Cackalacky]

The federal government defines poverty, of course they're correlated. That's like saying the percentage of applicants admitted to Notre Dame is correlated to the number of students the administration wants in each class. That doesn't prove anything, it's self-evident.


See this is the problem. You refuse to argue in good faith. I believe you want what's best for people, I just disagree with your proposed policies to achieve that end. You don't even recognize that I also want what's best for people.

 

[woolybug25]

See this is the problem. You refuse to argue in good faith.

Rich... coming from someone that just got busted for using a reference he admittedly didn't take his information from...

 

[irishfan]

Yeah, I never understood why Mexico would ever pay for it. Has anyone ever pushed Trump on this to the point where he actually responded thoughtfully?

You just answered your own question.

His response has always been to tout his negotiation skills.

Mexico must pay for the wall and, until they do, the United States will, among other things: impound all remittance payments derived from illegal wages; increase fees on all temporary visas issued to Mexican CEOs and diplomats (and if necessary cancel them); increase fees on all border crossing cards – of which we issue about 1 million to Mexican nationals each year (a major source of visa overstays); increase fees on all NAFTA worker visas from Mexico (another major source of overstays); and increase fees at ports of entry to the United States from Mexico [Tariffs and foreign aid cuts are also options]. We will not be taken advantage of anymore.

I can't believe I just visited his website, but this is actually one of the only issues where he has offered specifics. If he thought about other issues in as much detail, I would take him much more seriously.

I can't speak to the feasibility of his plan, but he at least is throwing specifics out there for this one idea.

 

[connor_in]

Question...who does Trump ask to be his vice presidential candidate

 

[irishfan]

Question...who does Trump ask to be his vice presidential candidate

Rubio? It's odd how they are playing nice with one another. Rubio is running out of time to make his move IMO.

No way it will be possible if it gets down to a 2-man race between Trump/Rubio, but I think it could happen if Trump sweeps Super Tuesday and Rubio can't get any separation from Cruz.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Question...who does Trump ask to be his vice presidential candidate

Sarah Palin.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Here's a quote from an attendee at a recent Cruz rally:

 

[woolybug25]

Sarah Palin.

I think Palin struck a deal, but not that one. I bet she takes over The Apprentice or something along those lines. She wants fame, not necessarily power.

 

[tussin]

It really will be interesting because it's a huge career risk for any politician willing to stand with him.

 

[pkt77242]

Question...who does Trump ask to be his vice presidential candidate

Bush.

 

[GoIrish41]

Bush.

lol

 

[woolybug25]

Here's a quote from an attendee at a recent Cruz rally:

wow

 

[kmoose]

Question...who does Trump ask to be his vice presidential candidate

Sanders!

 

[IrishLax]

Sanders!

HAHAHAHA that would be soooooooooo epic if Trump tabbed Sanders and said "we agree on nothing, but we're going to burn this mother fucker to the ground"

 

[ND NYC]

Bush.

Barbara?

no way, this nation "has had enough Bushes"

 

[drayer54]

Yeah but who cares, the Founding Fathers, in a time before people knew what germs were, didn't specifically call for the creation of social security so it's pure nonsense and we shouldn't care about poverty anyway because wealth inequality is a good thing.

The founding fathers got a lot of things right and created an amazing document that is probably the best piece of political paper ever created. The Federalist Papers not far behind. They spelled out a government template and the basic concepts that could be carried out for centuries. Government was supposed to be controlled by the people and those people were to ensure the government didn't get out of control and didn't infringe upon our rights. It is absolutely stupid to make a suggestion that the justification of people who oppose something is based upon strict compliance to an old document.

Wealth inequality is a good thing. Well, a little bit of inequality. It is what motivates people and keeps the productivity of our population healthy. Too much inequality is bad, because you can de-motivate people and possibly lose a generation from the workforce. Too little inequality is bad, because of the dive in productivity.

It is possible to believe that poverty is bad without believing that the solution is handouts. It is possible to believe that inequality is a problem without believing that the solution is punishing success.