2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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GATTACA!

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Hey... I don't want to sound like I'm bashing your opinion, you're entitled to it, and I respect that. But I couldn't disagree more.

I don't believe Trump loves this country. I don't think that's why he's running. This is a power thing. Nothing he has ever done in his entire life has been about anything other than himself. Hell, I don't even believe that his beliefs are real. This dude was a self professed democrat a moment ago. Now he is a strict conservative? No way, man. He saw an opportunity to grab power, and like every other time in his life, he told everyone what they wanted to hear in order to get it.

Read Cack's article above. He's not the first person to do this. The status quo is a hell of a lot better than what I think a tyranny will do to our union.

I honestly have no idea what to think about Trump.

As to that bolded point though i would say that in many ways he isn't simply saying what he thinks people want to hear, like a Cruz. Trump stood in front of conservative audience and blamed 9/11 on George Bush. He stood there and praised some of the functions of Planned Parenthood. I don't necessarily agree with him on many things but I do believe he is saying what he truly believes, for better or for worse.

Same goes for Bernie. While I disagree with almost every position he has I can respect his convictions, and understand he truly believes his solutions are the right direction for the country.

I keep seeing you bring up the idea that Trump's main motivation is his desire for power. Is that really a bad thing? What self motivated interest could he enact that would be bad for the country? He has made his fortune in real estate, the best way to boost his own brand would be to "Make America Great Again". I think he is also very ego driven. Again I don't know that that's a bad thing. I think he will be driven by the desire to make his presidential legacy as strong as possible.

This isn't an endorsement of Trump. Like I said i'm really stumped by Trump. On the one hand he looks like a complete lunatic. On the other I can see a man that is honestly more moderate than the rest of the party and simply has the facade of a loudmouth. Also I think his lack of actual policy is a real concern.
 

BleedBlueGold

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This is why Trump supporters are the first political group that I simply do not understand. How can they not see the obvious? This guy isn't a conservative, he's not in it to serve the electorate, he's only doing this for himself. How isn't this obvious to absolutely everyone?

Two years ago, Trump was getting roasted on Comedy Central...now he's going to be the POTUS? Are you fucking kidding me?

I blame Seth Meyers for Trump's run. I'm kidding. But at the same time, back in 2011 Seth destroyed Trump publicly at the White House Correspondents Dinner. The entire time all I could think about is, "This guy is poking a sleeping bear." I got this impression that Trump will run just to prove everyone wrong. He's a winner. We're all losers.

On another note, yesterday I posted a link to an article discussing a Trump vs HRC general election as well as a Trump vs Sanders election. They basically said that there is nothing HRC will be able to do to fend off Trump's attacks. He won't need to talk policy when he can spin any question into a direct attack on her. He simply can't do that with Bernie. The "he's a socialist" is only going to get you so far. Trump will be forced to debate policy and everyone knows, he's clueless on the issues.

A bunch of recent national polls show Sanders ahead of Clinton. Almost every single poll I've found regarding electibility shows Clinton losing to Trump but Sanders beating him. Clinton, IIRC, doesn't win a single poll vs any Repubs, but Bernie beats them all. Because of this, I'm still bullish on it being Bernie vs Trump w/ Bernie winning. There's a long long ways to go, but at this point, that's my gut.
 

connor_in

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NDohio

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What gets me is that people that don't like Hilldog (myself included) usually say she's unlikeable, self serving, power hungry, unethical, etc...

What in the hell do they think they are getting in Trump?

Don't mistake this for an endorsement of her, she's not getting my vote, but at least we know she plays politics. She owes people favors, she will do anything she can to promote herself as being a good person. Despite it not being the reality. Trump isn't gonna bother with any of that. It's cute to say "he doesn't owe anybody, he just wants to make Merica great again!"... What do people think he'll do when things inevitably go wrong? Don't get it twisted... It will go wrong. It's happened to every single president. Will he tuck his ego to do right by the country? Will he make the tough decisions that make him look bad in the short term, but is ultimately the right thing to do? He has literally never been that man or ever done anything to make me think he ever would.

He has the most potential for massive disaster than any candidate I can remember.


And if it's a Trump vs HRC for the most powerful position in the world, your vote goes to...
 

NDohio

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This is why Trump supporters are the first political group that I simply do not understand. How can they not see the obvious? This guy isn't a conservative, he's not in it to serve the electorate, he's only doing this for himself. How isn't this obvious to absolutely everyone?

Two years ago, Trump was getting roasted on Comedy Central...now he's going to be the POTUS? Are you fucking kidding me?


This is exactly the way I feel about this whole Trump thing. I am completely befuddled by the supporters he has. It's so easy for me to see the disaster that his Presidency would be, how do others not see it?
 

woolybug25

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And if it's a Trump vs HRC for the most powerful position in the world, your vote goes to...

That's the magic question for me right now. At first, I was thinking that I would simply not vote. That way, my conscious was clear either way. But I do see the logic in voting for Hillary simply as a gesture against Trump. Which is honestly saying something, as I really don't like her as a candidate.

I guess... as of today... I would have to say that it mattered who Hillary picked as her running mate.

But I really don't have an answer for you. I honestly hope that Bloomberg decides to join the party.
 

Irish#1

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IDK... I took it to be him blaming the fallout of a Trump election as the death knell for the Republican party when in fact they have done it themselves. The bell tolled many years ago. I would say the nomination of Palin as a VP candidate was well past the burial date TBH The party was damaged much longer ago and the rise of Tea Party is as much evidence as you need there. He is just as clueless as the very people he is describing in his article. Much like the Democrat party split over ideology in the 50s, the Rise of the Tea Party could not have occurred otherwise. The R's suffered from an inability or refusal to see what was wrong within themselves.

IMO, Sanders and Trump's popularity are indications that both parties have lost touch. One maybe more degree than the other, but never the less it's obvious no one is happy.
 

NDohio

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That's the magic question for me right now. At first, I was thinking that I would simply not vote. That way, my conscious was clear either way. But I do see the logic in voting for Hillary simply as a gesture against Trump. Which is honestly saying something, as I really don't like her as a candidate.

I guess... as of today... I would have to say that it mattered who Hillary picked as her running mate.

But I really don't have an answer for you. I honestly hope that Bloomberg decides to join the party.

I ask because I am really struggling with this situation. I see danger in both HRC and Trump and am trying to prepare myself for this possibility.

My oh my, what have we(as a Nation) become?
 

GoIrish41

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That's the magic question for me right now. At first, I was thinking that I would simply not vote. That way, my conscious was clear either way. But I do see the logic in voting for Hillary simply as a gesture against Trump. Which is honestly saying something, as I really don't like her as a candidate.

I guess... as of today... I would have to say that it mattered who Hillary picked as her running mate.

But I really don't have an answer for you. I honestly hope that Bloomberg decides to join the party.

I think Hillary's best move right now (once her nomination is settled) would be to bring Bernie on as her vice presidential running mate to try to hold onto some of the many young voters who would likely not show up in November if he was not on the ticket.
 

drayer54

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I will plug my nose, turn my head, shed a tear, and check the trump box.
 

woolybug25

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I will plug my nose, turn my head, shed a tear, and check the trump box.

Interesting... you seem to share a lot of the same feelings on Trump, but would be willing to give him your vote?

If i'm a Republican... I am definitely not voting Trump. He is a grenade to an already embattled party. A nail in the coffin, if you will.
 

Emcee77

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I never expected <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/idiocracy?src=hash">#idiocracy</a> to become a documentary.</p>— Etan Cohen (@etanjc) <a href="https://twitter.com/etanjc/status/702545314733895680">February 24, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Dying laughing. Cohen wrote the movie Idiocracy.

Anyone who hasn't seen Idiocracy, find a way to view it. Today. With the rise of Trump, you can't help but wonder if that is where we are headed.
 

wizards8507

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Interesting... you seem to share a lot of the same feelings on Trump, but would be willing to give him your vote?

If i'm a Republican... I am definitely not voting Trump. He is a grenade to an already embattled party. A nail in the coffin, if you will.
That's how I feel. There are still huge groups of people who equate "Republican" with "George Bush." They know they don't like George Bush so, in their minds, that means they must not like Republicans or conservatives in general. But the policies they have the biggest problems with are things like the Patriot Act, interventionism, and the military-industrial complex. Trying to convince people that those things aren't what I mean when I say "conservatism" (technically classical liberalism, shut up Whiskey) is impossible, because they have George Bush as a real live straw man. Trump would be that, but even worse.
 

tussin

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I think it was Whiskey who posted the article yesterday from The Federalist that basically argued that if the country is going to shit either way, it might as well be with HRC at the head and not Trump.

Trump getting elected will cause irreparable damage to the Republican party. GOP will certainly lose the Senate, which will be followed by years of finger pointing about who caused this disaster. It would be a tough pill to swallow as a conservative; but on the other hand, I think the current state of politics is shit and party reform is needed -- so maybe it could be a good thing? I don't care if the GOP burns down as long as fundamental principles of conservatism don't go down with it.
 

GoIrish41

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Interesting... you seem to share a lot of the same feelings on Trump, but would be willing to give him your vote?

If i'm a Republican... I am definitely not voting Trump. He is a grenade to an already embattled party. A nail in the coffin, if you will.

I know people are "angry" and want to "blow up the establishment" and all that, but blowing up the establishment is going to leave an awful lot of collateral damage -- quite possibly the credibility of the party (perhaps parties) for years to come. If people think the GOP primaries are ugly, the general election is going to be a complete shit show -- with establishment Republicans trying to cut their candidate's knees out from under him while he is in embroiled in trench warfare with the Democrats and Hillary. Much of the energy that has fueled Bernie will be gone when Hillary gets the nomination, and she will have a lot of work to do to get them on board to take on Trump. Both Hillary and Trump are ruthless politicians who are right at home polarizing Americans to firm up their grip on power. We will come out of this election much worse as a nation than we are right now. It is disheartening watching the country come unraveled in slow motion, especially when there are/were a thousand moments along the way that things could go in a more sensible and productive direction.
 

wizards8507

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I know people are "angry" and want to "blow up the establishment" and all that, but blowing up the establishment is going to leave an awful lot of collateral damage -- quite possibly the credibility of the party (perhaps parties) for years to come. If people think the GOP primaries are ugly, the general election is going to be a complete shit show -- with establishment Republicans trying to cut their candidate's knees out from under him while he is in embroiled in trench warfare with the Democrats and Hillary. Much of the energy that has fueled Bernie will be gone when Hillary gets the nomination, and she will have a lot of work to do to get them on board to take on Trump. Both Hillary and Trump are ruthless politicians who are right at home polarizing Americans to firm up their grip on power. We will come out of this election much worse as a nation than we are right now. It is disheartening watching the country come unraveled in slow motion, especially when there are/were a thousand moments along the way that things could go in a more sensible and productive direction.
I know you're not a conservative, but I think you'd find a lot to like in what National Review has been writing in their criticism of Trump.

Yet increasing numbers of GOP voters are rejecting character and conviction for sheer aggression. No one doubts that aggression can be satisfying, but aggression isn’t a governing principle. It’s a tactic. While Trump’s aggression serves some policies that conservatives support (like border security), it also serves Planned Parenthood, the individual mandate, and Vladimir Putin. Ultimately, Trump’s aggression serves Trump. Self-aggrandizement may be the spirit of our age, but it should never be the spirit of our movement. It is time to fight, but for the sake of conviction, not for the sake of the fight itself.

Donald Trump & Mitt Romney -- Electable or Not, He’s Angry, and His Supporters Like That
 

connor_in

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I never expected <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/idiocracy?src=hash">#idiocracy</a> to become a documentary.</p>— Etan Cohen (@etanjc) <a href="https://twitter.com/etanjc/status/702545314733895680">February 24, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Dying laughing. Cohen wrote the movie Idiocracy.

Anyone who hasn't seen Idiocracy, find a way to view it. Today. With the rise of Trump, you can't help but wonder if that is where we are headed.

X1S8V.jpg
 
C

Cackalacky

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I never expected <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/idiocracy?src=hash">#idiocracy</a> to become a documentary.</p>— Etan Cohen (@etanjc) <a href="https://twitter.com/etanjc/status/702545314733895680">February 24, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Dying laughing. Cohen wrote the movie Idiocracy.

Anyone who hasn't seen Idiocracy, find a way to view it. Today. With the rise of Trump, you can't help but wonder if that is where we are headed.
Trumps plan for the Flint:
Donald+trump+s+first+item+on+the+agenda_38c9ce_5753494.jpg
 

NDRock

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; said:
BRUSSELS — The shock waves Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders have sent through American politics this year aren’t just from their unexpected popularity or their relentless table-thumping. It’s because they’ve totally upended American ideas about what our political parties stand for. Trump’s strange mix of policy ideas casually throws overboard years’ worth of carefully honed Republican talking points about taxes and religion, while Sanders simply ignores the hard-won, generation-long Democratic shift to the political center with his rants against money and power.

What’s going on? As confusing as this might be in the States, it looks clearer from overseas: America is getting its first big dose of European politics.


Trump’s support of the social safety net coupled with unabashed xenophobia and protectionism might not be familiar to American voters, who are used to having their “conservative” politics be strictly anti-welfare, pro-trade, and low-tax. But it is immediately recognizable to supporters of the plethora of right-wing parties topping polls across Europe. Likewise, Sanders’ open embrace of socialism may shock Americans—but hardly raises an eyebrow in Europe, a continent where socialist parties are either in government or constitute the main opposition.

Even the two central character types in the latest installment of America’s hottest political drama are familiar to Europeans. A brash billionaire businessman with populist politics, coarse speech and a knack for self-promotion, who enters the political arena and trumps experienced rivals by pledging to make his country great again? That would be Silvio Berlusconi, a former cruise-ship crooner turned media magnate who set up his own political party in 1994 and within months was prime minister of Italy — a post he held four times.
Donald Trump, a more fully coiffed but equally vulgar American version of Berlusconi, may be contemptuous of Europe: He recently predicted the old continent was headed for “collapse,” and described Brussels as a “hellhole.” But his nativist politics could be lifted straight out of the playbook written by Europe’s increasingly successful populist parties.
Sanders is not as easy to lampoon as Trump, but to Europeans, his elevation to leading man status in the Democratic primaries has a familiar ring about it. Last year, Jeremy Corbyn—a 65-year old, hard-left firebrand with no front-bench experience, the media skills of a Trappist monk and a political philosophy most thought had fallen with the Berlin Wall—became leader of the Labour Party, Britain’s main opposition group. As with Sanders, most commentators dismissed Corbyn as “unelectable”—right until he was duly elected.

American voters are increasingly turning to candidates who owe scant allegiance to the parties whose nomination they are seeking. Trump was once a registered Democrat; Sanders, an independent senator from Vermont, once described the Democratic Party he recently joined as "morally bankrupt." A similar phenomenon is happening in Europe, where centrist parties have either been hijacked by politicians on the fringes (like Corbyn), or squeezed by radical groups on the left, such as Syriza in Greece, and the right, like the Danish People’s Party in Denmark. When populists cannot find a mainstream party to accommodate them, they simply set up their own party—such as the nationalist Finns Party currently flying high in the polls.

Populist insurgents on both sides of the pond have tapped into widespread anger at the social and economic devastation left by the recession. In Greece and Spain, almost half of young people are jobless, providing fertile ground for left-wing parties like Syriza in Athens and Podemos in Madrid. The unemployment rate in the United States is only half that in Europe, but Trump and Sanders have each succeeded in channeling the discontent and frustration of Americans who see rising growth but lower household incomes. When 70 percent of American voters tell pollsters they think the country is headed in the wrong direction, it is hardly surprising that candidates representing continuity, like Hillary Clinton, find it a tough slog to persuade electors to plump for them. To complicate matters for Clinton, she’s not merely defending herself from Sanders to her left; looming in the distance is Trump, who is as protectionist as most blue-collar Democrats and a staunch defender of Medicare.
In the U.S., Sanders is considered a firebrand for supporting free higher education and public healthcare funded by tax hikes. But in Europe, these ideas would put him right in the mainstream of a Christian Democrat party. After all, it was center-right Chancellor Angela Merkel who, in 2014, introduced a minimum wage in Germany. In the same year, she abolished university tuition fees.


Read more: 2016 Elections: Welcome to Europe - POLITICO Magazine

Not sure if this was already posted.
 
C

Cackalacky

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I think it was Whiskey who posted the article yesterday from The Federalist that basically argued that if the country is going to shit either way, it might as well be with HRC at the head and not Trump.

Trump getting elected will cause irreparable damage to the Republican party. GOP will certainly lose the Senate, which will be followed by years of finger pointing about who caused this disaster. It would be a tough pill to swallow as a conservative; but on the other hand, I think the current state of politics is shit and party reform is needed -- so maybe it could be a good thing? I don't care if the GOP burns down as long as fundamental principles of conservatism don't go down with it.

I don't know how else to say this because it seems to me my Republican friends don't understand. The Republican party ended in 2008. What we are seeing now are Republicans unable to see that. The Bush/Cheney/Iraq/Great Recession era of this country killed the republicans because we got to see the full effect of Republican policies taken to the edge and the Tea Party guys like the the governors for SC, Kansas, Michigan and Florida and the Republican held Congress have moved us over the edge and done irreparable damage to our country. Blaming all that on Trump is irrational and unfair. Trump is the result, not the cause.
 
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STLcardz-NDirish

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I think it was Whiskey who posted the article yesterday from The Federalist that basically argued that if the country is going to shit either way, it might as well be with HRC at the head and not Trump.

Trump getting elected will cause irreparable damage to the Republican party. GOP will certainly lose the Senate, which will be followed by years of finger pointing about who caused this disaster. It would be a tough pill to swallow as a conservative; but on the other hand, I think the current state of politics is shit and party reform is needed -- so maybe it could be a good thing? I don't care if the GOP burns down as long as fundamental principles of conservatism don't go down with it.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'm just curious how you think Trump will tarnish the fundamental principles of conservatism?
 

Wild Bill

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I don't know how else to say this because it seems to me my Republican friends don't understand. The Republican party ended in 2008. What we are seeing now are Republicans unable to see that. The Bush/Cheney/Iraq/Great Recession era of this country killed the republicans because we got to see the full effect of Republican policies taken to the edge and the Tea Party guys like the the governors for SC, Kansas, Michigan and Florida and the Republican held Congress have moved us over the edge and done irreparable damage to our country. Blaming all that on Trump is irrational and unfair. Trump is the result, not the cause.

How were they able to take and keep control of the house since 2010 and the senate in 2014?
 

GoIrish41

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I know you're not a conservative, but I think you'd find a lot to like in what National Review has been writing in their criticism of Trump.



Donald Trump & Mitt Romney -- Electable or Not, He’s Angry, and His Supporters Like That

To me it is not even about political philosophy anymore. Trump is a petulant, ham fisted, blowhard whose positions lack nuance and thoughtful consideration of inevitable second- and third-order outcomes. Tweaking tax policy in favor of the rich and altering social policy in favor of the right-wing ideology is preferable, to me, to a man who might start WWIII by tweeting insults at Putin in the middle of the night. He is a serious danger to the country. Too bad the Democratic establishment has their heads up their asses, too, and the best candidate they can come so obviously push to the top is a person who half of the country hates, and most of the rest don't trust. But, I agree with wooly, here. The status quo that most are sick and tired of, is preferable to rolling the dice on this fool.

Perhaps it is time for all of us, for the good of the country, to put partisanship aside and focus on keeping this guy from from sitting in the most powerful position on the planet. We can all agree that Hillary is far from an ideal candidate, but the prospect of Trump leading our country and our armed forces is simply terrifying.
 
C

Cackalacky

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How were they able to take and keep control of the house since 2010 and the senate in 2014?

The Tea Party and their subsequent gerrymandering. The Reagan Republicans have all been pushed out and those that have not have adapted to the Tea party. The rest who dont agree with the Tea Party are floundering in Independentsville wondering what to do and where to go.
 
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wizards8507

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I don't know how else to say this because it seems to me my Republican friends don't understand. The Republican party ended in 2008. What we are seeing now are Republicans unable to see that. The Bush/Cheney/Iraq/Great Recession era of this country killed the republicans because we got to see the full effect of Republican policies taken to the edge and the Tea Party guys like the the governors for SC, Kansas, Michigan and Florida and the Republican held Congress have moved us over the edge and done irreparable damage to our country. Blaming all that on Trump is irrational and unfair. Trump is the result, not the cause.
You're completely misrepresenting the nuances of various "conservative" ideologies. The Tea Party is not a more-right-wing version of Bush's cowboy conservatism. That's not the case at all. The Tea Party was anti-Bush just as much as they were anti-Obama. Their beef is not with the left-right trajectory of American politics, but with the up-down trajectory.

crowdgraphpng.png


Also, it was Bill Clinton that created the subprime mortgage crisis. The Community Reinvestment Act basically said "you're a racist if you don't issue mortgages to people who can't afford them." Plus, Fed policies of artificially low interest rates meant that risk was ridiculously under-measured in the market.

The Tea Party and their subsequent gerrymandering. The Reagan Republicans have all been pushed out and those that have not have adapted to the Tea party.
Please stop. The Tea Party is about federalism and liberty. I don't know if you're intentionally trying to perpetuate falsehoods, or if you're a true believer about some caricature lie you've been told.

Perhaps it is time for all of us, for the good of the country, to put partisanship aside and focus on keeping this guy from from sitting in the most powerful position on the planet. We can all agree that Hillary is far from an ideal candidate, but the prospect of Trump leading our country and our armed forces is simply terrifying.
Come on. I absolutely can't stand Donald Trump but, of the two, Hillary is the one with American blood on her hands.
 
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Wild Bill

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To me it is not even about political philosophy anymore. Trump is a petulant, ham fisted, blowhard whose positions lack nuance and thoughtful consideration of inevitable second- and third-order outcomes. Tweaking tax policy in favor of the rich and altering social policy in favor of the right-wing ideology is preferable, to me, to a man who might start WWIII by tweeting insults at Putin in the middle of the night. He is a serious danger to the country. Too bad the Democratic establishment has their heads up their asses, too, and the best candidate they can come so obviously push to the top is a person who half of the country hates, and most of the rest don't trust. But, I agree with wooly, here. The status quo that most are sick and tired of, is preferable to rolling the dice on this fool.

Perhaps it is time for all of us, for the good of the country, to put partisanship aside and focus on keeping this guy from from sitting in the most powerful position on the planet. We can all agree that Hillary is far from an ideal candidate, but the prospect of Trump leading our country and our armed forces is simply terrifying.

If a guy like Jim Webb was running against Trump, I think many people would agree with you and they'd cross party lines to vote for him. But HRC is scum. Everyone on the right and left knows it. She's a liar and just as self interested as Trump (if not more).

The Tea Party and their subsequent gerrymandering. The Reagan Republicans have all been pushed out and those that have not have adapted to the Tea party. The rest who dont agree with the Tea Party are floundering in Independentsville wondering what to do and where to go.

Gerrymandering doesn't explain gaining seats in the senate.
 
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tussin

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I don't know how else to say this because it seems to me my Republican friends don't understand. The Republican party ended in 2008. What we are seeing now are Republicans unable to see that. The Bush/Cheney/Iraq/Great Recession era of this country killed the republicans because we got to see the full effect of Republican policies taken to the edge and the Tea Party guys like the the governors for SC, Kansas, Michigan and Florida and the Republican held Congress have moved us over the edge and done irreparable damage to our country. Blaming all that on Trump is irrational and unfair. Trump is the result, not the cause.

I disagree with this. While the big failure of the Bush presidency was the Iraq War (no argument there), the Great Recession traces back to Clinton Era policies. That was a bubble that was going to pop regardless of what party was in the White House. I don't blame Bush for that one.

Also, let's not discount Obama's role in Congressional failures. If Obama wasn't so divisive, he would be able to implement bipartisan policies and work with both sides. Presidents should unite, not divide.
 

wizards8507

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Also, let's not discount Obama's role in Congressional failures. If Obama wasn't so divisive, he would be able to implement bipartisan policies and work with both sides. Presidents should unite, not divide.
Yeah, that line of thinking infuriates me. Whenever they talk about "reaching across the aisle" and "working with both sides," what they actually mean is "conservatives cave on their principles to implement left-wing policies."
 

tussin

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I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'm just curious how you think Trump will tarnish the fundamental principles of conservatism?

He is already making the GOP look like a bunch of buffoons. There are a ton of thoughtful conservatives out there (look at half the posters in this thread) and it makes them look bad through association alone. I know I don't want to be lumped in with this d-bag.
 
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