2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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Whiskeyjack

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Of course Christianity can be good (and has many times throughout history) been good for the poor but I think that one of the biggest problems with having Christianity as the basis for our society is that it has become divisive. Instead of bringing us together it is tearing us apart. I don't pretend to have all of the answers but I think we need to find something that binds us together not that creates divides. I am loathe to say nationalism because historically it has not worked out well and in the current environment I think that it would definitely not work well.

Nationalism requires a common culture around which a people can rally, and Americans don't have that. We're too ideologically divided. And, as you mentioned, nationalism has led to some pretty atrocious outcomes in the 20th century. I mentioned this recently, but each culture is organized a cultus, a sacred sense of order, a cosmology that roots its moral demands within a metaphysical framework. That's what we have to recover if our republic is going to continue; at the Founding, even though Americans belonged to many different denominations, the common foundation of their Christian faiths still bound them together as a single We, the People.

Now that our society is post-Christian, I have no idea what could possibly fill that void.

*The divisiveness isn't all caused by Christianity, some of it is being caused by secular people as well.

It's just human nature.
 

wizards8507

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Nationalism requires a common culture around which a people can rally, and Americans don't have that.
Immigration is to blame for that, and not just the illegal kind. Immigration either needs to be a steady, slow drip, or waves with lulls in between. That allows for assimilation to the American culture. This obviously presents some problems. First, "American culture" is spun by the race baiters to be code for "white culture," so you can't even suggest such a thing without being accused of racism or xenophobia. Second, we're probably way too far gone for this to be successful.

We're too ideologically divided. And, as you mentioned, nationalism has led to some pretty atrocious outcomes in the 20th century. I mentioned this recently, but each culture is organized a cultus, a sacred sense of order, a cosmology that roots its moral demands within a metaphysical framework. That's what we have to recover if our republic is going to continue; at the Founding, even though Americans belonged to many different denominations, the common foundation of their Christian faiths still bound them together as a single We, the People.
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're almost advocating for a kind of voluntary Balkanization. Because there's no commonly defined American culture, let society fragment into individual groups of common cultures that govern themselves.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're almost advocating for a kind of voluntary Balkanization. Because there's no commonly defined American culture, let society fragment into individual groups of common cultures that govern themselves.

Federalism was a great idea. We ought to try it again. That seems to be the only alternative to letting the Culture Wars tear us apart.
 

Armyirish47

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I'm not talking about the legitimacy of whether they paid in or not, I'm talking about receiving benefits at no cost at the time of service. It looks and feels free (or subsidized).


That's actually very surprising to me. A good friend of mine is an active duty Marine's wife, and her experience with military insurance is a nightmare. The restrictions they place on doctors and pharmacies is a constant headache for her family.


For the most part we were very happy with Tricare on active duty, especially for pregnancies. Even in the Reserves now, as a family, we are far better off than we would be on our employer options.
 

RDU Irish

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Federalism was a great idea. We ought to try it again. That seems to be the only alternative to letting the Culture Wars tear us apart.

Moving down that path for a few terms would sure seem to be worth a shot more so than plopping Trump or Bernie in the driver's seat. But logic and reason are not the driving forces of elections.
 

kmoose

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The broader point is that it's amazing how many people know seemingly nothing about politics. I was on Facebook yesterday and somebody posted a general election Presidential voting poll --- 100 people responded and ~60% went to Trump. These are college educated people with decent jobs. These are the voters that can swing an election. What are they thinking? I just don't get it.

Actually, the broader broader point is that too many of us (I include myself in this group) fall into the trap of convincing ourselves that anyone whose political priorities don't align with ours is uneducated, ignorant, or misinformed. Maybe those 60% have different priorities than you do? Maybe it is US who believe in foolish politics?
 

wizards8507

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Moving down that path for a few terms would sure seem to be worth a shot more so than plopping Trump or Bernie in the driver's seat. But logic and reason are not the driving forces of elections.
Absolutely. Any opinion that the Federal Government should not perform a certain task is twisted into an argument that the task itself is ignoble. If you don't think the federal government should fund Planned Parenthood with tax dollars, you're against women's health. If you don't think the federal government is effective at administering welfare programs, you must hate the poor. If you don't think the federal government has any business defining marriage one way or another, you're a homophobe. If you think states should decide whether recreational drug use should be legal, you must support kids overdosing on heroin.

Actually, the broader broader point is that too many of us (I include myself in this group) fall into the trap of convincing ourselves that anyone whose political priorities don't align with ours is uneducated, ignorant, or misinformed. Maybe those 60% have different priorities than you do? Maybe it is US who believe in foolish politics?
I agree with you when it comes to supporting one candidate or the other, but some people have positions on specific issues that are incoherent. If you support Donald Trump because you value executive experience and think border security is a top issue, then bully for you. If you support Donald Trump because you're a conservative and you think he's the most conservative candidate in the race, you need your head examined.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I agree with you when it comes to supporting one candidate or the other, but some people have positions on specific issues that are incoherent. If you support Donald Trump because you value executive experience and think border security is a top issue, then bully for you. If you support Donald Trump because you're a conservative and you think he's the most conservative candidate in the race, you need your head examined.

My impression is that very few people support Trump because of his policy positions. They support him because he's politically incorrect, and proudly so. They're basically sick of one bully (the American bien pensants who have determined the bounds of polite discourse), so they're rooting for a different one who recently stepped up and punched the former in the mouth.
 

tussin

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Actually, the broader broader point is that too many of us (I include myself in this group) fall into the trap of convincing ourselves that anyone whose political priorities don't align with ours is uneducated, ignorant, or misinformed. Maybe those 60% have different priorities than you do? Maybe it is US who believe in foolish politics?

No. These are people that believe Trump when he says Bush caused 9/11, think it is "alpha" when Trump belittles everyone around him, and can't point to a single Trump policy when you ask them for their reasoning behind supporting him (although I'm sympathetic with that one).

You are right that they do have different priorities than I, but that doesn't change the fact that they are misinformed and uneducated when it comes to politics. Many Trump supporters ARE political morons and I'm perfectly comfortable saying that.
 

FightingIrishLover7

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My impression is that very few people support Trump because of his policy positions. They support him because he's politically incorrect, and proudly so. They're basically sick of one bully (the American bien pensants who have determined the bounds of polite discourse), so they're rooting for a different one who recently stepped up and punched the former in the mouth.
Agreed. And more so, he's great at getting into the hindbrain of his followers. He's very good at convincing others it's fight or flight time. He's using generalities in his speeches and debates, that are just raw emotion. Like you said, hardly anyone is following him for his policy or plans (does he even have any)?

The American public is overreacting to our political landscape, and they want to listen and support someone who is just angry as them.

Trump is the voice of the angry/fearful American.
 

kmoose

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Many Trump supporters ARE political morons and I'm perfectly comfortable saying that.

You could insert any candidate for Trump and that statement would sound true. It all depends on your personal bias(es).
 

tussin

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You could insert any candidate for Trump and that statement would sound true. It all depends on your personal bias(es).

No argument there, but Trump is winning the nom by targeting the politically uneducated voter through a populist agenda. His strategy is certainly calculated and effective, but it's scary and damaging if he wins.

Serious question, does anyone here know someone that they would consider "politically informed" and is also a Trump supporter?
 

woolybug25

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Serious question, does anyone here know someone that they would consider "politically informed" and is also a Trump supporter?

I've asked this before, in many circles, and still have yet to find one.

That being said, I have found people that would vote for him as an "Anyone but Hillary", and I suspect there are many others in that camp. But unwilling to admit it.
 

FightingIrishLover7

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No argument there, but Trump is winning the nom by targeting the politically uneducated voter through a populist agenda. His strategy is certainly calculated and effective, but it's scary and damaging if he wins.

Serious question, does anyone here know someone that they would consider "politically informed" and is also a Trump supporter?
Nope, but, I know he claims he "does well", with "educated voters" too. He's mentioned it in a couple of his "victory" speeches.

I haven't seen numbers as to how well, and I don't know what classifies as educated.

Speaking of education and his supporters, has anyone discussed his "I love the poorly educated" comment?

How can someone that knows they're poorly educated not take that insulting? He's one small step away from saying, "I love dumb Americans!" I mean, it's a very very small step away.

I just have a hard time understanding how that demographic would not be completely insulted.
 
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Cackalacky

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No argument there, but Trump is winning the nom by targeting the politically uneducated voter through a populist agenda. His strategy is certainly calculated and effective, but it's scary and damaging if he wins.

Serious question, does anyone here know someone that they would consider "politically informed" and is also a Trump supporter?

My FB feed is also overflowing with people who will vote for Trump. They also have very firm US conservative political beliefs though I cant attest to their logic or internal consistency.
 

tussin

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That being said, I have found people that would vote for him as an "Anyone but Hillary", and I suspect there are many others in that camp. But unwilling to admit it.

Ha, it will be a sight to see if the Hillary/Trump match-up happens. Those two are so universally unlikable that I think a third party would stand an actual chance.
 
C

Cackalacky

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Nightmare scenario:

HRC faces off against Trump in the general election. Trump drops out and takes the VP position for HRC.

#TrumpTrollin
 

woolybug25

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Ha, it will be a sight to see if the Hillary/Trump match-up happens. Those two are so universally unlikable that I think a third party would stand an actual chance.

Maybe Bloomberg will come in and save America?
 

kmoose

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No argument there, but Trump is winning the nom by targeting the politically uneducated voter through a populist agenda. His strategy is certainly calculated and effective, but it's scary and damaging if he wins.

Serious question, does anyone here know someone that they would consider "politically informed" and is also a Trump supporter?

Yes. One. And he is about as far right as you can get... so take it for what it's worth.
 

GATTACA!

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Nope, but, I know he claims he "does well", with "educated voters" too. He's mentioned it in a couple of his "victory" speeches.

I haven't seen numbers as to how well, and I don't know what classifies as educated.

Speaking of education and his supporters, has anyone discussed his "I love the poorly educated" comment?

How can someone that knows they're poorly educated not take that insulting? He's one small step away from saying, "I love dumb Americans!" I mean, it's a very very small step away.

I just have a hard time understanding how that demographic would not be completely insulted.

I had the same reaction initially, but hey maybe they are too stupid to realize they were being insulted.
 

IrishLax

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No argument there, but Trump is winning the nom by targeting the politically uneducated voter through a populist agenda. His strategy is certainly calculated and effective, but it's scary and damaging if he wins.

Serious question, does anyone here know someone that they would consider "politically informed" and is also a Trump supporter?

Yes. Only one, though... my dad.

Old, half-Latino / half-white male. Doesn't care about Trump wanting to deport illegals because Grandma came here legally and paid taxes and thinks that what all Central American/South American immigrants should do.

His main reason he's a Trump supporter is because he absolutely hates career politicians of all stripes and colors. He likes that Trump has had an entire life and career outside of politics. He likes that he has worked in the private sector. He likes that he has been wildly successful (no, filing bankruptcy does NOT mean what most uninformed people think it does).

So when the choices are:
1. Bernie Sanders, who has spent his entire life as a politician/activist and has no idea what it takes to turn a profit in any sort of business AND has truly absurd economic policies that defy logic/reason (this is actually true, even left-leaning economists admit this).
2. Hillary Clinton, who is a hypocrite/liar/populist/fraud of the highest order whose family has used the political system and the associated power to their gain for decades.
3. Marco Rubio, who he is OK with but doesn't like the fact that he's a "Bush Republican" (sup, Whiskey).
4. Ted Cruz, who "sucks."
5. Kasich, who "can't win."

It's Trump by process of elimination. In his words "Trump might be a disaster, but if that's the case at least he brings the whole system down with him" and "unless there is catastrophic economic collapse, the odds of a Trump presidency affecting my bottom line in a negative fashion are much lower than Hillary or that bleeding-heart everyone gets a fucking cookie socialist moron."

So, yeah. That's the logic of the only Trump supporter I know.
 

irishfan

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Nope, but, I know he claims he "does well", with "educated voters" too. He's mentioned it in a couple of his "victory" speeches.

I haven't seen numbers as to how well, and I don't know what classifies as educated.

Speaking of education and his supporters, has anyone discussed his "I love the poorly educated" comment?

How can someone that knows they're poorly educated not take that insulting? He's one small step away from saying, "I love dumb Americans!"
I mean, it's a very very small step away.

I just have a hard time understanding how that demographic would not be completely insulted.

I'm not positive, but I think he won every demographic in New Hampshire. So voters with degrees and advanced degrees. Could have been South Carolina, not New Hampshire. He seems to be winning every single demographic right now.

And I'm sure the poorly educated people just assume he is talking about other people haha
 

FightingIrishLover7

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Nightmare scenario:

HRC faces off against Trump in the general election. Trump drops out and takes the VP position for HRC.

#TrumpTrollin
HILLARYTRUMPMONSTER.jpg
 

tussin

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So when the choices are:
1. Bernie Sanders, who has spent his entire life as a politician/activist and has no idea what it takes to turn a profit in any sort of business AND has truly absurd economic policies that defy logic/reason (this is actually true, even left-leaning economists admit this).
2. Hillary Clinton, who is a hypocrite/liar/populist/fraud of the highest order whose family has used the political system and the associated power to their gain for decades.
3. Marco Rubio, who he is OK with but doesn't like the fact that he's a "Bush Republican" (sup, Whiskey).
4. Ted Cruz, who "sucks."
5. Kasich, who "can't win."

God damn, that's depressing to read.

The Cruz comment made me laugh though. That guy does suck.
 
C

Cackalacky

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My main man Noam steppin up to the plate:

<iframe src="http://cdn3.wibbitz.com//player?id="b0ded49caab0b4149bf2ad130953ebf0d>
 
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