2016 Presidential Horse Race

[EddytoNow]

so EddytoNow proposes a straight up lottery for immigration? Put all the names in a hat and pull out a winner! Or is it a pure and open border with citizenship to anyone that can stumble into our country?

Not at all. I'm just stating that any immigration reform that is adopted should be non-discriminatory. If it is determined we can accept only a specific number of immigrants per year, then religion, ethnicity, economic status, and education level, etc. should not be used as "the" criteria for favoring one group over another.

For example: A poor, brown-skinned, Spanish-speaking, uneducated immigrant should not go to the back of the line because they are not wealthy, white-skinned, English speaking, and college educated. If such a policy had existed in the 1800's, the poor, white-skinned, Gaelic-speaking, uneducated, Catholic Irish immigrant would have been excluded. The sentiment certainly existed among many earlier immigrants to discriminate against Irish Catholics in the same manner many want to discriminate against non-Western European, non-Protestant immigrants today.

The parallels are there.

 

[connor_in]

Poll: Sanders nearly tied with Clinton nationwide | TheHill

 

[phgreek]

I think it's likely that lots of people have done similar things. I bet we can find loads of personal congressional emails with classified information. Is it a good idea? No. Is it the kind of scandal that people are trying to make it with Clinton? No. People are making it seem like she was selling state secrets. The backlash, to me, is entirely politically motivated. Similar to Benghazi.

ahh...yea...I hope the hell lots of people have not punted TS-SCI back and forth on fucking godaddy or worse. I don't know what anyone else did, and frankly it is a distraction to include those alleged transgressions in this discussion because none of those folks are running for FUCKING PRESIDENT. We'll get to them. I'll say this...if Powell and Rice had THOUSANDS of TS-SCI correspondence on an open server...then they deserve to burn...but the pressing issue is, someone that far gone in their judgment and priorities wants to lead this nation...and people are OK with that. SMFH.

The thing is, Mrs. Clinton in her role knew information she dealt with was almost always classified...Dahhhhh. When you do that job YOU KNOW simply by the nature of the material...it is classified from its INCEPTION. Let me say it again...FROM INCEPTION. It doesn't take an IG to TAG the correspondence for you to have a duty to protect the information, and to suggest such is simply ignorant or arrogant, or both. She is a self-involved jackass, too important for common sense, much less very clear expectations about data. Seriously...defending this or minimizing it is the only political twist I see to this entire debacle. Hammering her for this is not splitting hairs....to me its like you guys are calling Kilimanjaro an Ant hill....not the other way around.

And by the way...my kids see no relief because the other kids did it too...in fact thats more reason to drop the hammer...because I expect them to have BETTER judgement than the average kid...can't I have the same expectations of the woman who would lead the free world???

...sometimes people need to see a dead body or 10 to get it...and the more I see of the views on the subject around here the more I believe people won't bother to get security until someone can draw a very tidy line from a transgression to someone getting decapitated in an ISIS video....otherwise, everytime someone gets called out...it'll be dismissed as political...JM&J!

 

[RDU Irish]

ahh...yea...I hope the hell lots of people have not punted TS-SCI back and forth on fucking godaddy or worse. I don't know what anyone else did, and frankly it is a distraction to include those alleged transgressions in this discussion because none of those folks are running for FUCKING PRESIDENT. We'll get to them. I'll say this...if Powell and Rice had THOUSANDS of TS-SCI correspondence on an open server...then they deserve to burn...but the pressing issue is, someone that far gone in their judgment and priorities wants to lead this nation...and people are OK with that. SMFH.

The thing is, Mrs. Clinton in her role knew information she dealt with was almost always classified...Dahhhhh. When you do that job YOU KNOW simply by the nature of the material...it is classified from its INCEPTION. Let me say it again...FROM INCEPTION. It doesn't take an IG to TAG the correspondence for you to have a duty to protect the information, and to suggest such is simply ignorant or arrogant, or both. She is a self-involved jackass, too important for common sense, much less very clear expectations about data. Seriously...defending this or minimizing it is the only political twist I see to this entire debacle. Hammering her for this is not splitting hairs....to me its like you guys are calling Kilimanjaro an Ant hill....not the other way around.

And by the way...my kids see no relief because the other kids did it too...in fact thats more reason to drop the hammer...because I expect them to have BETTER judgement than the average kid...can't I have the same expectations of the woman who would lead the free world???

...sometimes people need to see a dead body or 10 to get it...and the more I see of the views on the subject around here the more I believe people won't bother to get security until someone can draw a very tidy line from a transgression to someone getting decapitated in an ISIS video....otherwise, everytime someone gets called out...it'll be dismissed as political...JM&J!

While the bolded is exactly the point - most people give their kids a break if "everyone else was doing it". Agree 100% with everything you are saying here, are we really saying the POTUS should be coddled? Commander in Chief? Leader of the US an enabled, coddled victim of afluenza!

I will keep telling myself the only reason Bernie Sanders is beating Hillary is because she is an evil harpie and Democrats are voting AGAINST her, not FOR the socialist.

 

[connor_in]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">When you get burned by O'Malley's press secretary. (H/T <a href="https://twitter.com/JimmyPrinceton">@JimmyPrinceton</a>) <a href="https://t.co/k612PbDLri">pic.twitter.com/k612PbDLri</a></p>— Michael Blum (@MichaelBlum3) <a href="https://twitter.com/MichaelBlum3/status/695482308694913024">February 5, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Poll: Sanders nearly tied with Clinton nationwide | TheHill

There is still hope...

Queue Polish Leppy to regurg something he heard on Fox, GoIrish41 to explain how the GOP doesn't stand a chance and Wiz telling us all to build a bigger capitalism in 5, 4, 3, 2...

 

[wizards8507]

There is still hope...

Queue Polish Leppy to regurg something he heard on Fox, GoIrish41 to explain how the GOP doesn't stand a chance and Wiz telling us all to build a bigger capitalism in 5, 4, 3, 2...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fEddseLbfhY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This was at ND my sophomore year. Changed my life.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Not at all. I'm just stating that any immigration reform that is adopted should be non-discriminatory. If it is determined we can accept only a specific number of immigrants per year, then religion, ethnicity, economic status, and education level, etc. should not be used as "the" criteria for favoring one group over another.

For example: A poor, brown-skinned, Spanish-speaking, uneducated immigrant should not go to the back of the line because they are not wealthy, white-skinned, English speaking, and college educated. If such a policy had existed in the 1800's, the poor, white-skinned, Gaelic-speaking, uneducated, Catholic Irish immigrant would have been excluded. The sentiment certainly existed among many earlier immigrants to discriminate against Irish Catholics in the same manner many want to discriminate against non-Western European, non-Protestant immigrants today.

The parallels are there.

Let's make one thing very clear: no nation is obliged to take any immigrants at all. Any nation can choose to accept or decline anyone who wants to be a citizen of their country. Don't take this statement as being pro discrimination, but we have millions of unemployed Americans who are struggling to get by.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

There is still hope...

Queue Polish Leppy to regurg something he heard on Fox, GoIrish41 to explain how the GOP doesn't stand a chance and Wiz telling us all to build a bigger capitalism in 5, 4, 3, 2...

I don't watch Fox and don't cite anything from Fox on here. Nice try. I could be wrong but the only way I see Bern winning is if Hill is in an orange jumpsuit.

 

[RDU Irish]

I don't watch Fox and don't cite anything from Fox on here. Nice try. I could be wrong but the only way I see Bern winning is if Hill is in an orange jumpsuit.

20% of Democrat delegates are "super delegates" - which H-Dog has 100% tied up. Bernie needs to win 60% of delegates in order to have a chance. Add in an incredible knack for winning coin flips and odds are still crappy for feeling the Bern.

 

[EddytoNow]

Let's make one thing very clear: no nation is obliged to take any immigrants at all. Any nation can choose to accept or decline anyone who wants to be a citizen of their country. Don't take this statement as being pro discrimination, but we have millions of unemployed Americans who are struggling to get by.

You're right. We don't have to accept any immigrants. But if we do decide to let immigrants into our country, the criteria we use to exclude other potential immigrants will define us as a country. Will we be "The Land of Opportunity"? Or will we be "The Land of Opportunity Denied"? As for the millions of unemployed Americans struggling to find jobs, I don't see any long lines of American citizens forming to pick tomatoes or pickles in the fields of the midwest and south or to pick grapes in the vineyards of California.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

I don't watch Fox and don't cite anything from Fox on here. Nice try. I could be wrong but the only way I see Bern winning is if Hill is in an orange jumpsuit.

Then you should submit your resume. You repeat their subterfuge as if it was your own. Or perhaps Fox overflows their porcelain, seeping through the majority of "conservative" outlets until it plops into the minds of those who align on the right.

The same can be said of the left and their insistence on spending the borrowed moral capital that accrued over the last couple hundred years and their inability to define a coherent long term goal. The Mob is bonum commune communitatis. They are ultimate good in their temporal space because they are the mob.

When each person is a cogito ergo sum'er we have a world of bellum omnium contra omnes.

Wine makes me a little latin-y and misanthropic. Hopefully the majority joins me and we can put an end to us before it's too late.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

You're right. We don't have to accept any immigrants. But if we do decide to let immigrants into our country, the criteria we use to exclude other potential immigrants will define us as a country. Will we be "The Land of Opportunity"? Or will we be "The Land of Opportunity Denied"? As for the millions of unemployed Americans struggling to find jobs, I don't see any long lines of American citizens forming to pick tomatoes or pickles in the fields of the midwest and south or to pick grapes in the vineyards of California.

Sounds like we should vet everyone thoroughly, no matter where they come from. We don't want to exclude group ABC, but blindly accepting thousands or millions is economic and cultural suicide. Catch anything going on in Germany recently?

And it doesn't matter who's lining up for what jobs. When a country has a surplus of people compared to number of job openings, it makes no sense to bring in more people.

 

[wizards8507]

Then you should submit your resume. You repeat their subterfuge as if it was your own. Or perhaps Fox overflows their porcelain, seeping through the majority of "conservative" outlets until it plops into the minds of those who align on the right.

Your view of "the right" is quite limited. Most actual conservatives I know are sick of Fox and their bullshit.

 

[phgreek]

Your view of "the right" is quite limited. Most actual conservatives I know are sick of Fox and their bullshit.

...since like 2004

 

[phgreek]

Sounds like we should vet everyone thoroughly, no matter where they come from. We don't want to exclude group ABC, but blindly accepting thousands or millions is economic and cultural suicide. Catch anything going on in Germany recently?

And it doesn't matter who's lining up for what jobs. When a country has a surplus of people compared to number of job openings, it makes no sense to bring in more people.

good post. answering a whole host of sillyness in this post...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMywOal05s0

I don't think we necessarily have to have a D or an R next to your name to get it right...further it is OK to look out for OUR national best interest by using immigration as a TOOL. We all get immigration, and its import from an historical and going forward perspective. But I'm tired of people conflating legal VS illegal immigrants. I understand THEIR motivations to flee or seek a better life...but THEIR motivations do not policy make...capice? Also...People coming here in the 1800s...yea they had fewer rules...but they damn well followed them, and for hell sake none of them stressed the healthcare and educational systems among others...because there wasn't much of either in place...changes in the immigration system reflect our national "progress" and increasing complexity of systems HERE, and the impacts to OUR citizens.

To be clear...sometimes those appearing to need our country the most are the ones our country least needs...gotta put on big boy (or girl) pants and do the work that puts this nation first. Above all that means enforcing her laws, and going through the process of changing laws when needed. OUR laws are more important than any person trying to come here. All of that said, as in all things done at a Federal Level, we do need to do this in a fair way. And before folks chime in for the 180 millionth time about e-verify...of course that needs to be done, and enforced. No one seems to make any strained/strange religious guilt based arguments about that part, so it goes silent in these conversations...because everyone agrees...it is assumed to be part of the solution.

 

[EddytoNow]

Sounds like we should vet everyone thoroughly, no matter where they come from. We don't want to exclude group ABC, but blindly accepting thousands or millions is economic and cultural suicide. Catch anything going on in Germany recently?

And it doesn't matter who's lining up for what jobs. When a country has a surplus of people compared to number of job openings, it makes no sense to bring in more people.

It makes sense to the produce or fruit farmer that can't get a United States citizen to harvest his crops. The job is too hard and too hot, and requires long work days with frequent unemployment. The typical United States citizen takes one look at the job requirements and low pay and walks away. Don't be misled by the figures reported as family income. The income reported for the migrant farm laborer typically includes the pay earned by himself, his wife, and several children working 12-16 hour days in the fields or the orchards.

 

[phgreek]

I don't see how we have an ostrich approach to ISIS. We're doing extensive targeted bombing that has decimated them in many ways. Republicans are talking tough about them, but none of what they are saying (except for the implications of indiscriminate bombing without thoughts of civilian life), short of boots on the ground, is markedly different from what the Obama administration is already doing. We also blew up a ton of their money, which made them cut their fighters' salaries in half.

First on CNN: Video of bombing of 'millions' in ISIS cash - CNNPolitics.com

Pentagon Releases New Video Of ISIS Cash Going Up In Smoke | The Daily Caller

Because we tiptoe around the fringes of the ISIS issue, it SPREAD. This is no longer a campaign related to blowing them up in the dirt the have claimed. The things I don't see are organized/coordinated international attacks on 1) the money, 2) the technology, 3) movement of sympathizers...many more things to be done. We are chronically two steps behind the issue and that is due to the President's reluctance to engage and lead here. You cite air strikes...which would have been great when they were the JV team...now that they get their message out on social media, and create impeccable passport fakes, etc., etc.... they can do that because we are bombing something international. We have no choice but to LEAD the world in their elimination...that means banks, that means social media, that means taking the land away...boots on the ground
...he could be doing a ton more...thank good his clock is running out.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Because we tiptoe around the fringes of the ISIS issue, it SPREAD. This is no longer a campaign related to blowing them up in the dirt the have claimed. The things I don't see are organized/coordinated international attacks on 1) the money, 2) the technology, 3) movement of sympathizers...many more things to be done. We are chronically two steps behind the issue and that is due to the President's reluctance to engage and lead here. You cite air strikes...which would have been great when they were the JV team...now that they get their message out on social media, and create impeccable passport fakes, etc., etc.... they can do that because we are bombing something international. We have no choice but to LEAD the world in their elimination...that means banks, that means social media, that means taking the land away...boots on the ground
...he could be doing a ton more...thank good his clock is running out.

Wrong. Not everything is Obama's fault, especially middle east geopolitics. There isn't a coalition to eliminate ISIS because everyone over there is positioning themselves for when ISIS is gone.

I don't know how many times I have to explain this, but here's another one. Due to our stunningly amateur plan for rebuilding Iraq, we were forced to but a Shia in charge of the place. This basically put the country on a path to being an Iranian puppet state which, surprise, the Sunnis in the country didn't benefit from.. so they hopped on the ISIS train after years of Baghdad oppression.

The Arabs (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt, etc) have no desire to take out ISIS because it helps Iraq, which helps Iran.

The Kurds have no desire to take out ISIS because he helps the Baghdad centralized government, which weakens their autonomy.

Turkey has no desire to take out ISIS, because they're harming the Kurds and are an issue for Iran.

Just so we're clear, there is currently no coalition to form. No one is willing to take care of a problem they see as Iran's.

The United States is unwilling to do it themselves because any one who isn't any complete moron knows you don't get into a land war in Asia without a clear way out . There is no way out because the answer is political.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

It makes sense to the produce or fruit farmer that can't get a United States citizen to harvest his crops. The job is too hard and too hot, and requires long work days with frequent unemployment. The typical United States citizen takes one look at the job requirements and low pay and walks away. Don't be misled by the figures reported as family income. The income reported for the migrant farm laborer typically includes the pay earned by himself, his wife, and several children working 12-16 hour days in the fields or the orchards.

How on earth did we ever get by as a country before cheap migrant labor? The idea that farms in this country wouldn't exist without illegal immigrants is just not true. Come out to Lancaster County some time and I'll show you how the Amish handle their business.

 

[GATTACA!]

It makes sense to the produce or fruit farmer that can't get a United States citizen to harvest his crops. The job is too hard and too hot, and requires long work days with frequent unemployment. The typical United States citizen takes one look at the job requirements and low pay and walks away. Don't be misled by the figures reported as family income. The income reported for the migrant farm laborer typically includes the pay earned by himself, his wife, and several children working 12-16 hour days in the fields or the orchards.

Or maybe the free market is telling you that the wages farmers are offering aren't worth the labor they want done. There are tons of jobs in this country that are hot uncomfortable and difficult, and these jobs are filled because the employers pay a salary that is fair compensation. The answer isn't opening the borders and letting in immigrants that you can treat like animals and only pay 5 cents on the dollar compared to a typical us citizen.

 

[GoIrish41]

How on earth did we ever get by as a country before cheap migrant labor? The idea that farms in this country wouldn't exist without illegal immigrants is just not true. Come out to Lancaster County some time and I'll show you how the Amish handle their business.

I was just in Lancaster County this morning to visit my daughter at college. On the way there this 25 degree morning I got stuck behind a horse drawn buggie on Route 501 while the family inside was wrapped up in a half dozen hand sewn quilts to stay warm. They were no doubt on their way to visit with another Amish family to socialize and commune in a home with no electricity and outdoor plumbing. While I have incredible respect for their fortitude and simple way of life that revolves around back breaking labor, it is hardly a way of life that American citizens aspire to. Much technological progress has come in the last couple of centuries that make living as if it were the 18th century seem less than ideal.

 

[GoIrish41]

Or maybe the free market is telling you that the wages farmers are offering aren't worth the labor they want done. There are tons of jobs in this country that are hot uncomfortable and difficult, and these jobs are filled because the employers pay a salary that is fair compensation. The answer isn't opening the borders and letting in immigrants that you can treat like animals and only pay 5 cents on the dollar compared to a typical us citizen.

This is all very true, and I suspect that many people would change their tune about immigration and locking down the border when the cost of food and building a house doubled because access to cheap labor dried up.

 

[EddytoNow]

Or maybe the free market is telling you that the wages farmers are offering aren't worth the labor they want done. There are tons of jobs in this country that are hot uncomfortable and difficult, and these jobs are filled because the employers pay a salary that is fair compensation. The answer isn't opening the borders and letting in immigrants that you can treat like animals and only pay 5 cents on the dollar compared to a typical us citizen.

I in no way condone the treatment of migrant farm laborers, or anyone else, as if they were animals, but the sad fact is these workers come to the United States because even the low wages, which they receive for hours of back-breaking hard work, are still better than starving in Mexico or Central America. In the Midwest, tomato, cucumber, cabbage, strawberry and other produce farmers rely on this inexpensive labor to plant and harvest their crops. If this source of cheap labor were taken away, these farmers would be forced to plant less labor-intensive crops (such as corn, wheat, or soybeans). The corn, wheat, and soybean markets would be flooded with excess production and the price earned per bushel would drop dramatically, forcing many of these small farm operations out of business.

Among the migrant workers themselves, there are many that are willing to endure the harsh working conditions and low wages as a stepping stone to a better life, either for themselves or for their children. Rhetoric, like that spewed by the Republican presidential candidates, serves only to pit one poor group against another. They offer no positive solutions, either for the poor US citizen or for the poor immigrants seeking to better themselves. Trump's support is rooted in his constant scape-goating of Hispanics and non-Christians for all of America's problems. Is it any wonder the Republicans can't gain any traction with the rapidly increasing non-white and non-Christian electorate?

 

[phgreek]

Wrong. Not everything is Obama's fault, especially middle east geopolitics. There isn't a coalition to eliminate ISIS because everyone over there is positioning themselves for when ISIS is gone.

I don't know how many times I have to explain this, but here's another one. Due to our stunningly amateur plan for rebuilding Iraq, we were forced to but a Shia in charge of the place. This basically put the country on a path to being an Iranian puppet state which, surprise, the Sunnis in the country didn't benefit from.. so they hopped on the ISIS train after years of Baghdad oppression.

The Arabs (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt, etc) have no desire to take out ISIS because it helps Iraq, which helps Iran.

The Kurds have no desire to take out ISIS because he helps the Baghdad centralized government, which weakens their autonomy.

Turkey has no desire to take out ISIS, because they're harming the Kurds and are an issue for Iran.

Just so we're clear, there is currently no coalition to form. No one is willing to take care of a problem they see as Iran's.

The United States is unwilling to do it themselves because any one who isn't any complete moron knows you don't get into a land war in Asia without a clear way out . There is no way out because the answer is political.

So what I'm understanding you to be saying...

Part 1... the environment for the formation of ISIS was Bush's fault... (Mr. not everything is Obama's fault)

My response to Part 1...K, who gives a fuck? How we got here has no bearing on what we need to do.

Part 2...No one wants ISIS gone, or is at least not willing to do something about it.

My response to Part 2...I disagree, and think your logic is dated...and does not consider the desire of common people...ISIS has killed indiscriminately...something AlQaeda did not do...as a result ISIS has no friends outside themselves and twisted one off fucksticks around the world...

The list of ISIS enemies is long and generally well funded...and inclusive of "ARABS" as well as Syria, Iran and Iraq...and by their own claim ISIS considers themselves alafist Jihadists...However, most alafist Jihadists are non violent...except that tafir gives them moral authority to kill apostate muslims...which they all see ISIS as apostate Muslims...thats a lot of people who are ok with whacking ISIS. Now we have European participants who all of the sudden have impetus to drop the hammer as their people are ready...A coalition is attainable IMO. Won't know until January 2017 I guess....because a) you have to ask; and b) you have to be credible when you ask

Part 3 Everyone who wants boots on the ground is an idiot

My response...K. They are if they put themselves in the box of the past. There are certainly ways of severely stunting ISIS by overwhelming force, and then going away with a plan to have locals keep whacking them...the issue is...the only reason a coalition isn't attainable is Mr. Obama's reputation of indecisive "leadership"...not for a lack of willing participants...like I said...this will get cleaned up in a year... Until then, hoping the homeland doesn't have to pay for having someone who's foreign policy is to snivel about why we got here in the first place...at least you and he have that in common.

 

[IrishLax]

I in no way condone the treatment of migrant farm laborers, or anyone else, as if they were animals, but the sad fact is these workers come to the United States because even the low wages, which they receive for hours of back-breaking hard work, are still better than starving in Mexico or Central America. In the Midwest, tomato, cucumber, cabbage, strawberry and other produce farmers rely on this inexpensive labor to plant and harvest their crops. If this source of cheap labor were taken away, these farmers would be forced to plant less labor-intensive crops (such as corn, wheat, or soybeans). The corn, wheat, and soybean markets would be flooded with excess production and the price earned per bushel would drop dramatically, forcing many of these small farm operations out of business.

Among the migrant workers themselves, there are many that are willing to endure the harsh working conditions and low wages as a stepping stone to a better life, either for themselves or for their children. Rhetoric, like that spewed by the Republican presidential candidates, serves only to pit one poor group against another. They offer no positive solutions, either for the poor US citizen or for the poor immigrants seeking to better themselves. Trump's support is rooted in his constant scape-goating of Hispanics and non-Christians for all of America's problems. Is it any wonder the Republicans can't gain any traction with the rapidly increasing non-white and non-Christian electorate?

Just laughably inaccurate considering many conservative pundits are attacking Rubio for doing exactly that.

 

[kmoose]

I in no way condone the treatment of migrant farm laborers, or anyone else, as if they were animals, but the sad fact is these workers come to the United States because even the low wages, which they receive for hours of back-breaking hard work, are still better than starving in Mexico or Central America. In the Midwest, tomato, cucumber, cabbage, strawberry and other produce farmers rely on this inexpensive labor to plant and harvest their crops. If this source of cheap labor were taken away, these farmers would be forced to plant less labor-intensive crops (such as corn, wheat, or soybeans). The corn, wheat, and soybean markets would be flooded with excess production and the price earned per bushel would drop dramatically, forcing many of these small farm operations out of business.

Among the migrant workers themselves, there are many that are willing to endure the harsh working conditions and low wages as a stepping stone to a better life, either for themselves or for their children. Rhetoric, like that spewed by the Republican presidential candidates, serves only to pit one poor group against another. They offer no positive solutions, either for the poor US citizen or for the poor immigrants seeking to better themselves. Trump's support is rooted in his constant scape-goating of Hispanics and non-Christians for all of America's problems. Is it any wonder the Republicans can't gain any traction with the rapidly increasing non-white and non-Christian electorate?

With all due respect; if you think that Midwest production of these crops is in any way significant, you have no idea what you are talking about.

>95% of strawberries grown in the United States come from either California or Florida.

The top 4 states for tomatoes are: California, Florida, Virginia, and Georgia.

Midwest farmers simply do not provide a lot of fruits and vegetables to the national economy. Grains, yes; fruits and vegetables, no.

 

[kmoose]

This is all very true, and I suspect that many people would change their tune about immigration and locking down the border when the cost of food and building a house doubled because access to cheap labor dried up.

You are making an incorrect assumption that the laborers' illegal status allows employers to exploit them. The fact is that certain farm laborers are outside of minimum wage laws:

Exemptions under the Fair labor Standards Act (FLSA) are:


•Agricultural employees who are:
•employed on a small farm - less than 500 'man days' work in any calender quarter. Definition 'man day': any day during which an employee performs agricultural work for at least an hour;
•immediate family members of their employer;
•principally engaged on the range in the production of livestock;
•local hand harvest laborers who: - commute daily from their permanent residence, are paid on a piece rate basis in traditionally piece-rated occupations, and were engaged in agriculture less than thirteen weeks during the preceding calendar year;
•non-local minors, 16 years of age or under, who are hand harvesters, paid on a piece rate basis in traditionally piece-rated occupations, employed on the same farm as their parent, and paid the same piece rate as those over 16.

So, in the instances above, their immigration status would make no difference in the wages they earn.

 

[EddytoNow]

With all due respect; if you think that Midwest production of these crops is in any way significant, you have no idea what you are talking about.

>95% of strawberries grown in the United States come from either California or Florida.

The top 4 states for tomatoes are: California, Florida, Virginia, and Georgia.

Midwest farmers simply do not provide a lot of fruits and vegetables to the national economy. Grains, yes; fruits and vegetables, no.

I used the Midwest as one example of where the loss of cheap labor would force farmers into growing something else. And there are thousands, if not millions of Midwest acres planted with tomatoes, cabbage, strawberries, cucumbers, etc. I never stated that the growth of produce was limited to the Midwest. Are you suggesting that farm laborers in California, Virginia, Florida, and Georgia are paid substantially more than those in the Midwest? If you know anything about the migrant labor force, then you know that the field workers are called migrant workers for a reason. The migrant laborers in Florida, Virginia, Georgia, and California and those in Michigan and Ohio and other Midwest states are one and the same. They follow the planting and harvesting seasons in search of employment. The vast majority of the farm laborers who come to Michigan and Ohio each summer come from the border area of Texas, from Florida, and from other southern states. So any law preventing Mexican immigrants from entering the United States or deporting those that are already here would severely hamper the produce industry all across the country.

 

[EddytoNow]

Just laughably inaccurate considering many conservative pundits are attacking Rubio for doing exactly that.

Not so laughable when you consider "all" of Rubio's positions on immigration. To pander to the Republican base, Rubio has gotten closer and closer to the positions espoused by Trump and Cruz.