'16 GA ATH Demetris Robertson (Georgia Transfer)

BeauBenken

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Everyone, including me, needs to stop taking what reporters say at face value. Wiltfong has every incentive in the world to give ND fans hope because that generates more clicks. If his report was "if he gets into Stanford, he will choose Stanford" ND fans would pretty much give up if he is admitted to Stanford. But if he says "ND still has a good shot," ND fans stay interested.

Except ND fans would still pay attention to the recruitment, constantly wanting to know if he was going to get accepted. Besides, it is not only Wiltfong who says that Stanford likely WON'T land Robertson. As well, Wiltfong has every motive in the world to be an honest reporter if he is really worried about keeping subscribers.

Notre Dame has recruited the heck out of this kid; we are in great position no matter what.

EDIT: Going with what I have heard, I'm staying confident with this kid until I hear reason to be anything less. I'm also just confident that our staff has done a really good job overall at getting this kids...and they're still keeping it up.
 
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MNIrishman

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Stanford's undergraduate admission rate is 5.1% versus Notre Dame's at 19.8%, so you could say that.

Admission rate is not a reasonable indicator of average academic credentials of students. It is more an indicator that Stanford is:

1) In a high population region of a
2) High population state and
3) Isn't religiously-affiliated and
4) Is the most prestigious school in the region so
5) Almost every decent student in the region applies.

In other words, the average scores show that the schools are admitting students of the same caliber, while Stanford gets more applications overall.
 

Domina Nostra

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Holy crap is this one of those mythical Stanford fans?

And yes, Stanford is FAR more selective than Notre Dame... they have a much larger applicant pool, especially among international students. Selectivity isn't always a direct measure of the caliber of student, for example USC is more "selective" than Notre Dame but has students with objectively worse academic profile. Same can be said for many Ivies... lower acceptance rate, worse ACT/SAT scores.

With regard to Stanford, I think it's fair to say it's both though, because while ND takes students with comparable test scores, that's only part of the picture.

I love ND, but I've never heard anyone outside of ND circles put it up there with Stanford in terms of prestige. Stanford is in that rarified air with Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Amhurst, Williams. It's one of those "I could chose anywhere and I chose..." schools.

Some kids love ND enough that they would choose it over everywhere else, but that is gnerally based on Catholicism or family, not reputation. I'd love to see how often Stanford gets turned down for another school, and which shcools they are.

And there are reasons to argue that ND is, in fact, a superior school. But its like arguing that H.W. Bush was a better President than Reagan or Clinton. There are some pretty compelling things that most people might not think of that lean that way, but that is just not what people think.
 
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woolybug25

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Except ND fans would still pay attention to the recruitment, constantly wanting to know if he was going to get accepted. Besides, it is not only Wiltfong who says that Stanford likely WON'T land Robertson. As well, Wiltfong has every motive in the world to be an honest reporter if he is really worried about keeping subscribers.

Notre Dame has recruited the heck out of this kid; we are in great position no matter what.

This point can't be bolded enough. Wiltfong's entire schtick is that he's reliable. He isn't always the first, he isn't always the boldest, but he is always the most accurate. I respect his opinion more than all other beat guys simply because I know that his information is never coming from assumption or for the purpose of getting hits. For many people, that may not be important. But there are a great deal of people like me that simply wouldn't value him if that ever changed.
 

IrishLax

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I love ND, but I've never heard anyone outside of ND circles put it up there with Stanford in terms of prestige. Stanford is in that rarified air with Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Amhurst, Williams. It's one of those "I could chose anywhere and I chose..." schools.

Some kids love ND enough that they would choose it over everywhere else, but that is gnerally based on Catholicism or family, not reputation. I'd love to see how often Stanford gets turned down for another school, and which shcools they are.

And there are reasons to argue that ND is, in fact, a superior school. But its like arguing that H.W. Bush was a better President than Reagan or Clinton. There are some pretty compelling things that most people might not think of that lean that way, but that is just not what people think.

Was with you until those two... you and I might have a high opinion of Williams, etc. because we understand what that place really is, how capable the people that go there are, and how well connected that alumni network is in powerful places... but most Americans haven't even heard of Williams. So unless we're talking different versions "prestige" (maybe I'm thinking more "renown?") then I'd have to disagree. In general though, I totally agree with the point your making.

To your second point though, there is actually a site that measures that head-to-head for students admitted to both schools and what they choose. Let me see if I can find it.

EDIT: found it, but it turns out it's actually not as good of a tool as I thought... the methodology isn't exactly real/accurate, but still interesting I guess:
Compare Colleges: Side-by-side college comparisons | Parchment - College admissions predictions.
Compare Colleges: Side-by-side college comparisons | Parchment - College admissions predictions.
Compare Colleges: Side-by-side college comparisons | Parchment - College admissions predictions.

For some reason, ND beats Oklahoma/Georgia by less of a margin than USC, which is just... nonsensical?
 
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MNIrishman

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I love ND, but I've never heard anyone outside of ND circles put it up there with Stanford in terms of prestige. Stanford is in that rarified air with Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Amhurst, Williams. It's one of those "I could chose anywhere and I chose..." schools.

Some kids love ND enough that they would choose it over everywhere else, but that is gnerally based on Catholicism or family, not reputation. I'd love to see how often Stanford gets turned down for another school, and which shcools they are.

And there are reasons to argue that ND is, in fact, a superior school. But its like arguing that H.W. Bush was a better President than Reagan or Clinton. There are some pretty compelling things that most people might not think of that lean that way, but that is just not what people think.

Williams and Amherst aren't that well known, mostly only to those in the northeast. I'm not sure where you're getting that ND isn't a first choice university. It's a very different choice, and for those who attend, it's almost always their first choice school. Of my high school, there were ten admits who collectively chose it over Yale, Harvard, Penn, Caltech, WUSTL, Northwestern, and some others I don't recall. The thing is, those other schools "call everyone" whereas ND calls "the few." Usually, people find a home at ND in a way that virtually no one else I've known uses to describe their school.
 

NDShark

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Holy crap is this one of those mythical Stanford fans?

And yes, Stanford is FAR more selective than Notre Dame... they have a much larger applicant pool, especially among international students. Selectivity isn't always a direct measure of the caliber of student, for example USC is more "selective" than Notre Dame but has students with objectively worse academic profile. Same can be said for many Ivies... lower acceptance rate, worse ACT/SAT scores.

With regard to Stanford, I think it's fair to say it's both though, because while ND takes students with comparable test scores, that's only part of the picture.

Warning: pure speculation (although you should all be used to that).

13 ppt is a large difference in acceptance rate. I'm wondering what portion of that is "pipe dream" candidates. Since ND has many football fans, they may subject to a higher portion of average HS seniors applying almost knowing they don't have a chance. Cue, Jim Carrey in Dumb & Dumber.
 

MNIrishman

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Was with you until those two... you and I might have a high opinion of Williams, etc. because we understand what that place really is, how capable the people that go there are, and how well connected that alumni network is in powerful places... but most Americans haven't even heard of Williams. So unless we're talking different versions "prestige" (maybe I'm thinking more "renown?") then I'd have to disagree. In general though, I totally agree with the point your making.

To your second point though, there is actually a site that measures that head-to-head for students admitted to both schools and what they choose. Let me see if I can find it.

Are you thinking of this?

Compare Colleges: Side-by-side college comparisons | Parchment - College admissions predictions.

Looks like about 2 in 3 choose Stanford, but they don't seem to have a lot of data here since the confidence interval is so large.
 

MNIrishman

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Warning: pure speculation (although you should all be used to that).

13 ppt is a large difference in acceptance rate. I'm wondering what portion of that is "pipe dream" candidates. Since ND has many football fans, they may subject to a higher portion of average HS seniors applying almost knowing they don't have a chance. Cue, Jim Carrey in Dumb & Dumber.

We may have a higher portion of kids applying because they like the football team, but Stanford has a huge fraction of kids applying because they live in California and want to go to a good private school in California. Either way, it doesn't really matter, because we admit students of the same caliber. ND just receives fewer applications, likely because it is kind of in the middle of nowhere.
 

IrishLax

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We may have a higher portion of kids applying because they like the football team, but Stanford has a huge fraction of kids applying because they live in California and want to go to a good private school in California. Either way, it doesn't really matter, because we admit students of the same caliber. ND just receives fewer applications, likely because it is kind of in the middle of nowhere.

More than anything, it's actually the people from China/Korea/India/etc. that is the reason. These people don't apply to Notre Dame whatsoever, but they do apply to USC and Stanford in droves.
 

tussin

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Williams and Amherst aren't that well known, mostly only to those in the northeast. I'm not sure where you're getting that ND isn't a first choice university. It's a very different choice, and for those who attend, it's almost always their first choice school. Of my high school, there were ten admits who collectively chose it over Yale, Harvard, Penn, Caltech, WUSTL, Northwestern, and some others I don't recall. The thing is, those other schools "call everyone" whereas ND calls "the few." Usually, people find a home at ND in a way that virtually no one else I've known uses to describe their school.

Agreed. Liberal arts schools will never have the name brand that national universities do. I went to a good one (not in the same category as Amherst or Williams) and most people outside of the Northeast have never even heard of it. Or they only know us as the school that upset Kansas one year.
 

MNIrishman

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More than anything, it's actually the people from China/Korea/India/etc. that is the reason. These people don't apply to Notre Dame whatsoever, but they do apply to USC and Stanford in droves.

That's a good point. Those applications are largely driven by prestigious graduate schools, which we lack. This goes back to the point I've been endorsing that our next step in growth as a university is to improve our profile by investing heavily in research (with the benefit that additional faculty means a lower student-to-faculty ratio).
 

NDgradstudent

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I love ND, but I've never heard anyone outside of ND circles put it up there with Stanford in terms of prestige. Stanford is in that rarified air with Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Amhurst, Williams. It's one of those "I could chose anywhere and I chose..." schools.

Some kids love ND enough that they would choose it over everywhere else, but that is gnerally based on Catholicism or family, not reputation. I'd love to see how often Stanford gets turned down for another school, and which shcools they are.

And there are reasons to argue that ND is, in fact, a superior school. But its like arguing that H.W. Bush was a better President than Reagan or Clinton. There are some pretty compelling things that most people might not think of that lean that way, but that is just not what people think.

You can look at various studies to see the likelihood a student chooses one school over another, given the option ("revealed preference rankings"). This paper, for example, finds that ND ranks 13th in terms of students picking the school- placing it ahead of US News higher ranked schools such as Chicago, Duke, and Northwestern, among others. Stanford only 'loses' to Harvard and Yale.

You can also look at Parchment.com's college selection data aggregator, which similarly finds that ND matches up relatively well with Stanford (about as well as Princeton, in fact!)
 

palinurus

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Stanford fan. Mods get rid of it.

Edit: While we're at it can we kick out the lonely as f*** Bama and Michigan fans that are always creeping around the boards. There's plenty other places for them to talk about their respective teams. It's been obnoxious as hell seeing TomHaverford and T Town Tommy constantly pop up the last few months. I don't care if they're friendly, there's no reason for them to be on a message board for ND fans.


Don't know the other guys, but I think TTT adds to the general quality of IE. An outside, non-trollian view is interesting to me and maybe adds perspective. In fact, I favor any poster of any loyalty being permitted to post, as long as they aren't trolling and follow the general rules. It just so happens that, in a Venn diagram, the circle of Ohio State fans posting to IE is almost completely -- in fact, maybe actually completely - within the "A-hole Troll/Ban 'Em" circle.
 

Domina Nostra

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Was with you until those two... you and I might have a high opinion of Williams, etc. because we understand what that place really is, how capable the people that go there are, and how well connected that alumni network is in powerful places... but most Americans haven't even heard of Williams. So unless we're talking different versions "prestige" (maybe I'm thinking more "renown?") then I'd have to disagree. In general though, I totally agree with the point your making.

My point is--as I think you get--that you don't go to Yale to get a job at a local insurance firm, you do it to get a job at the State Department or on Wall Street. You don't go to Stanford to work as an accountant in a small city, you go to get a job at a tech giant.

So while the rich and successful insurance agent up the street from me might rightfully argue that you can get a great education at Alabama, and that you can do very well for yoursefl with that degree, he might be right. But he if he wants certain elite jobs, he is going to have a MUCH harder time getting it with that degree.

Certain degrees open doors that others generally cannot. And the people who control those jobs and are represented in those industries (with the obvious exceptions to any rule) all consider certain schools to be THE schools (I think you'd throw Amhurst and Williams into that mix), and everythig else to be second, third, or fourth teir. Look, for example, about the schools of Supreme Court clerks and law professors.

Sure, the Top kids from any school stick out, and maybe more so for being the best from somewhere. But almost everyone else is not at the top.

Notre Dame is not in that Top Tier. Duke, like Penn, Dartmoth, Brown, and Cornell, is on the cusp. Oklahoma is not part of the conversation. The only public schools in the arguement for somewhere in second tier are a couple of the California schools, UVA, and possibly UNC and Michigan.

Anyway, its easier to defeine the top than the middle, and Stanford is most certianly at the top for everyone except the New Yorkers and Bostonians who only like Harvard or Yale and think Princeton is a back-up.
 
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woolybug25

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Stanford fan. Mods get rid of it.

Edit: While we're at it can we kick out the lonely as f*** Bama and Michigan fans that are always creeping around the boards. There's plenty other places for them to talk about their respective teams. It's been obnoxious as hell seeing TomHaverford and T Town Tommy constantly pop up the last few months. I don't care if they're friendly, there's no reason for them to be on a message board for ND fans.

I'm all for early departures of rival fanboys, but you don't speak for the rest of us on the bolded. Both guys, but in particular Tommy, have been respectful and have added content. They have always been quick to give insight to their programs and added to the conversation. There has been a long tradition of this site being welcoming to other fanbases. It would be a damn shame if we quit doing that and all this board did was circle jerk our own fanboy opinions.

There's other sites for that... and NDnation for the Irish Guilt and program bashing...
 

palinurus

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My point is--as I think you get--that you don't go to Yale to get a job at a local insurance firm, you do it to get a job at the State Department or on Wall Street. You don't go to Stanford to work as an accountant in a small city, you go to get a job at a tech giant.

So while the rich and successful insurance agent up the street from me might rightfully argue that you can get a great education at Alabama, and that you can do very well for yoursefl with that degree, he might be right. But he if he wants certain elite jobs, he is going to have a MUCH harder time getting it with that degree.

Certain degrees open doors that others generally cannot. And the people who control those jobs and are represented in those industries (with the obvious exceptions to any rule) all consider certain schools to be THE schools (I think you'd throw Amhurst and Williams into that mix), and everythig else to be second, third, or fourth teir.

Sure, the Top kids from any school stick out, and maybe more so for being the best somewhere. But almost everyone else is not at the top.

Notre Dame is not in that Top Tier. Duke, like Penn and Cornell, is on the cusp. Oklahoma is not part of the conversation. The only public schools in the arguemtn for second tier are a couple of the California schools, UVA, and possibly UNC and Michigan.

Anyway, its easier to defeine the top than the middle, and Stanford is most certianly at the top for everyone except the New Yorkers and Bostonians who only like Harvard or Yale and think Princeton is a back-up.

It's your view that UVA is better academically than Notre Dame? I realize this is subjective, at some point, and UVA is a fine school, but US News, Forbes and Business Insider all have ND ahead of UVA. The Best Colleges review has UVA ahead. This is general review, not business school. ND is ahead of UNC, too, in some, and maybe ahead of Michigan, too, in some. FWIW.
 

Classic Irish

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Agreed. Liberal arts schools will never have the name brand that national universities do. I went to a good one (not in the same category as Amherst or Williams) and most people outside of the Northeast have never even heard of it. Or they only know us as the school that upset Kansas one year.

Bucknell???
 

MNIrishman

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My point is--as I think you get--that you don't go to Yale to get a job at a local insurance firm, you do it to get a job at the State Department or on Wall Street. You don't go to Stanford to work as an accountant in a small city, you go to get a job at a tech giant.

So while the rich and successful insurance agent up the street from me might rightfully argue that you can get a great education at Alabama, and that you can do very well for yoursefl with that degree, he might be right. But he if he wants certain elite jobs, he is going to have a MUCH harder time getting it with that degree.

Certain degrees open doors that others generally cannot. And the people who control those jobs and are represented in those industries (with the obvious exceptions to any rule) all consider certain schools to be THE schools (I think you'd throw Amhurst and Williams into that mix), and everythig else to be second, third, or fourth teir. Look, for example, about the schools of Supreme Court clerks and law professors.

Sure, the Top kids from any school stick out, and maybe more so for being the best from somewhere. But almost everyone else is not at the top.

Notre Dame is not in that Top Tier. Duke, like Penn, Dartmoth, Brown, and Cornell, is on the cusp. Oklahoma is not part of the conversation. The only public schools in the arguement for somewhere in second tier are a couple of the California schools, UVA, and possibly UNC and Michigan.

Anyway, its easier to defeine the top than the middle, and Stanford is most certianly at the top for everyone except the New Yorkers and Bostonians who only like Harvard or Yale and think Princeton is a back-up.

Now this is just wrong. You want to know which schools the old boys' clubs recruit? Just look at MBB recruiting. Goldman-Sachs. (The late) Lehman Bros. They only send representatives to certain schools' career fairs. ND is in that group. I honestly can't think of a single major company that DOESN'T recruit at ND but DOES recruit Harvard or Yale (except for companies looking predominantly in their region).

The Supreme Court is immaterial as a measure. Every single justice went to either Harvard or Yale. That's not a meritocracy; it's an oligarchy or possibly some sort of plutocracy.
 

IrishLax

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You can look at various studies to see the likelihood a student chooses one school over another, given the option ("revealed preference rankings"). This paper, for example, finds that ND ranks 13th in terms of students picking the school- placing it ahead of US News higher ranked schools such as Chicago, Duke, and Northwestern, among others. Stanford only 'loses' to Harvard and Yale.

You can also look at Parchment.com's college selection data aggregator, which similarly finds that ND matches up relatively well with Stanford (about as well as Princeton, in fact!)

Great post.
 

MNIrishman

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Don't know the other guys, but I think TTT adds to the general quality of IE. An outside, non-trollian view is interesting to me and maybe adds perspective. In fact, I favor any poster of any loyalty being permitted to post, as long as they aren't trolling and follow the general rules. It just so happens that, in a Venn diagram, the circle of Ohio State fans posting to IE is almost completely -- in fact, maybe actually completely - within the "A-hole Troll/Ban 'Em" circle.

My problem is that I want to shit all over the SEC and Bama, but have to make exceptions for present company because one of the Gumps figured out how to read.
 

palinurus

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My problem is that I want to shit all over the SEC and Bama, but have to make exceptions for present company because one of the Gumps figured out how to read.

Haha. Well, just post a footer on your signature block that says: "None of the comments expressed by this poster, regardless of their objective application to Southern mouthbreathers and their inbred progeny, are intended to apply, and in fact expressly do not apply, to...." and then list your exclusions, TTT, et al. Then spew away.
 

NDty9

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KJ Costello


Also, guess what, Drob retweeted it and liked it.

He also liked and retweeted the shout out Will Fuller gave him earlier this week.... I wouldn't read too much into that.

Although, reading into EVERYTHING seems to be all we can do at this point haha
 

beryirish

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He also liked and retweeted the shout out Will Fuller gave him earlier this week.... I wouldn't read too much into that.

Although, reading into EVERYTHING seems to be all we can do at this point haha

It's the only thing I have going on for me until the spring game lol
 
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