'16 CA DE Oluwole Betiku (USC Verbal)

[gkIrish]

That's so asinine it defies comprehension. I'm talking about the value of using college to expand your worldview by experiencing something new and possibly uncomfortable for just a few years, and you're blithering on about marriage?

Relax, chief. You can disagree with my post without being so scalding.

As NDWorld mentioned, you think the kid from Nigeria needs to go to Notre Dame to get a better worldview. I would say he is one of the few recruits that can go wherever he wants and be very successful on and off the field.

I got into ND and USC and chose ND, by the way. Have never lived in a warm weather state. So it's not like I agree with the kid's choice on a personal level. I just don't think it's appropriate to criticize someone who makes a decision based on comfort/happiness, especially considering the alternate to ND is not some shit school.

 

[dad4aa]

How does going to a school with colder weather somehow make him a better man?

Should people marry someone who makes them happy or someone who might make life a bit easier for them from a financial perspective? The choice here really isn't that different...

This comparison works if you plan on only being married for four years.

 

[gkIrish]

Honestly? Yes. I think it's an objectively poor decision for almost any recruit with a Notre Dame offer to go elsewhere. No other program offers what we do.

But I'm not weighing in on if Betiku is a "pussy" for dismissing ND due to the weather. I simply took issue with your marriage analogy.

What if he wants to make films or be a sports agent if an NFL career doesn't work out for him? Why would he go to ND over USC?

As far as the marriage analogy, I'm not sure how you define what makes someone a better person...All I know is that if my future wife makes me happy until I die, and I make her happy, then we did right by each other.

 

[OCIrish]

Something like 60% of NFL players eventually go bankrupt. I'd really like to see that figure broken down by school (especially ones like LSU where everyone takes general studies).

The problem here......you're dealing with 18 y/o kids. They're not always apt to think rational, let alone for most of them to got to school and not make football their top priority. We've had this discussion a million times, you can get a quality education at almost any University as long as you put then effort in, however, if your plan is solely to get to the NFL, depending on how you were raised, academics and money are simply not your biggest concern while in college.

 

[gkIrish]

This comparison works if you plan on only being married for four years.

I am essentially married to Notre Dame for the rest of my life. I have a deep connection to the school and to the people I met there. It is absolutely not a 4 year decision. If he is unhappy at Notre Dame for 4 years because he hates the weather he will not have the lifelong connection to the school that someone like me does. On the other hand, if he loves USC and loves the State of California, that love will be with him for the rest of his life.

I honestly can't fathom how people want a young man to not go to the place that makes him happy.

 

[Luckylucci]

I am essentially married to Notre Dame for the rest of my life. I have a deep connection to the school and to the people I met there. It is absolutely not a 4 year decision. If he is unhappy at Notre Dame for 4 years because he hates the weather he will not have the lifelong connection to the school that someone like me does. On the other hand, if he loves USC and loves the State of California, that love will be with him for the rest of his life.

I honestly can't fathom how people want a young man to not go to the place that makes him happy.

A big caveat here is, assuming he's going to the school that makes him happy. Not for those around him or for other reasons. Then I agree.

 

[woolybug25]

As far as the marriage analogy, I'm not sure how you define what makes someone a better person...All I know is that if my future wife makes me happy until I die, and I make her happy, then we did right by each other.

I would argue that you can't make a spouse happy until death without first making them a better person. Happiness is result of personal effort. The effect, not the cause... if you will.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

What if he wants to make films or be a sports agent if an NFL career doesn't work out for him? Why would he go to ND over USC?

Beyond the STEM/ liberal arts distinction, it's a mistake to place much emphasis on what a kid thinks he wants to do with his life at age 18.

As far as the marriage analogy, I'm not sure how you define what makes someone a better person...

How about a less selfish, more engaged and productive member of one's community?

All I know is that if my future wife makes me happy until I die, and I make her happy, then we did right by each other.

If that's your expectation, you're setting yourself up for a lot of pain and disappointment. Marriage is hard work; happiness isn't always in the cards. But purpose and fulfillment can be, as long as both you and your wife understand that you're building something together that's much bigger and more important than either of you individually.

 

[gkIrish]

A big caveat here is, assuming he's going to the school that makes him happy. Not for those around him or for other reasons. Then I agree.

Of course.

I would argue that you can't make a spouse happy until death without first making them a better person. Happiness is result of personal effort. The effect, not the cause... if you will.

How about a less selfish, more engaged and productive member of one's community?

If that's your expectation, you're setting yourself up for a lot of pain and disappointment. Marriage is hard work; happiness isn't always in the cards. But purpose and fulfillment can be, as long as both you and your wife understand that you're building something together that's much bigger and more important than either of you individually.

What if two people are already good people? Say A and B are each a 9/10 on the evil to good scale. They get married and live happily. At death, they are both still a 9/10. It seems to me you think their marriage was unsuccessful because they didn't improve to a 9.5.

I guess I don't understand the distinction. How can I be disappointed and in pain if I am happy. My argument is that a happy marriage is a successful marriage. The presumption is that there will not be disappointment and pain because that would be unhappy. I think being a better person is part of being happy.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

What if two people are already good people? Say A and B are each a 9/10 on the evil to good scale. They get married and live happily. At death, they are both still a 9/10. It seems to me you think their marriage was unsuccessful because they didn't improve to a 9.5.

If two saints get married, have a bunch of kids, and raise them to be saints as well, then the husband and wife have increased in holiness exponentially. As I mentioned above, marriage is a vocation that, if successful, transforms you. Your hypothetical of two people getting married, living together for years and dying essentially unchanged simply doesn't happen.

I guess I don't understand the distinction. How can I be disappointed and in pain if I am happy. My argument is that a happy marriage is a successful marriage. The presumption is that there will not be disappointment and pain because that would be unhappy. I think being a better person is part of being happy.

Transformation is painful:

You need to understand that a successful marriage will be no different. If you go in expecting happiness instead of sacrifice and hard work, you're setting yourself up for failure.

 

[MNIrishman]

I am essentially married to Notre Dame for the rest of my life. I have a deep connection to the school and to the people I met there. It is absolutely not a 4 year decision. If he is unhappy at Notre Dame for 4 years because he hates the weather he will not have the lifelong connection to the school that someone like me does. On the other hand, if he loves USC and loves the State of California, that love will be with him for the rest of his life.

I honestly can't fathom how people want a young man to not go to the place that makes him happy.

I think the ND sense of loyalty and connection is somewhat rare. At any rate, no school I've been associated with (employee at 3, student at 3 others (including Ivy League and P5)) has had more than the occasional alum who actually gets excited about visiting campus again. Maybe USC is an exception, but given the size of the school, the fact that it only fills its stadium periodically, and its urban locale, I find it unlikely.

Also, regarding my caustic response earlier, I'm just a bored asshole. Don't listen to me.

 

[woolybug25]

What if two people are already good people? Say A and B are each a 9/10 on the evil to good scale. They get married and live happily. At death, they are both still a 9/10. It seems to me you think their marriage was unsuccessful because they didn't improve to a 9.5

Neither being good people nor being happy cause a good marriage. They are both something you can get as a result from a good marriage, but they in and of themselves, are not components that create a good marriage. There are billions of "good people" in the world that simply are bad fits for marriage with other "good people". Same for "happy people". A successful marriage is built on the pillars of hard work, providing for one another and communication. One of the biggest reasons most marriages fail in America is that people base this important union on soft reasoning like "they make me happy" or "they are my best friend". A marriage isn't about that. It's about creating something vital to society and community. It should make both people better citizens, family member and human being as a whole. That doesn't always mean that you are "happy" and it certainly doesn't mean that your partner is your "best friend".

Marriage is about hard work and sacrifice for the better good. Being "happy" is a result from being successful at it.

 

[gkIrish]

You need to understand that a successful marriage will be no different. If you go in expecting happiness instead of sacrifice and hard work, you're setting yourself up for failure.

I never said there won't be unhappy or difficult moments during a marriage. I'm talking about big picture happiness. I'm not saying Betiku will never have an unhappy moment, semester, or even year at USC. But if he is unhappy every single winter every single year at Notre Dame, it's not fair to ask him to do that.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I never said there won't be unhappy or difficult moments during a marriage. I'm talking about big picture happiness.

As I mentioned above, "happiness" is a tricky word. If you mean personal fulfillment instead of contentment, then that's fine.

I'm not saying Betiku will never have an unhappy moment, semester, or even year at USC. But if he is unhappy every single winter every single year at Notre Dame, it's not fair to ask him to do that.

I don't know anyone who could be so affected by the weather that their entire experience at ND would be ruined by it, but I suppose it's possible. If Betiku falls into that extreme minority, then maybe he made the right choice. But to paraphrase Kory Minor's mom, he can buy a coat to improve his experience in South Bend, but he can't buy anything to make up for the inferior education and personal development he'll be offered at Troy.

 

[gkIrish]

Neither being good people nor being happy cause a good marriage. They are both something you can get as a result from a good marriage, but they in and of themselves, are not components that create a good marriage. There are billions of "good people" in the world that simply are bad fits for marriage with other "good people". Same for "happy people". A successful marriage is built on the pillars of hard work, providing for one another and communication. One of the biggest reasons most marriages fail in America is that people base this important union on soft reasoning like "they make me happy" or "they are my best friend". A marriage isn't about that. It's about creating something vital to society and community. It should make both people better citizens, family member and human being as a whole. That doesn't always mean that you are "happy" and it certainly doesn't mean that your partner is your "best friend".

Marriage is about hard work and sacrifice for the better good. Being "happy" is a result from being successful at it.

I'm not married so I guess my opinion doesn't hold as much weight but I disagree with your conclusion. If you are unhappy in marriage, then you are not with the right person. I don't see how someone can be a better person and be simultaneously unhappy.

 

[woolybug25]

I'm not married so I guess my opinion doesn't hold as much weight but I disagree with your conclusion. If you are unhappy in marriage, then you are not with the right person. I don't see how someone can be a better person and be simultaneously unhappy.

So your wife has cancer and is dying. Should you not be married to her because you are "unhappy"?

Happiness is something you will gain and lose consistently through a marriage. If it is the basis of the union itself, then divorce is a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm not married so I guess my opinion doesn't hold as much weight but I disagree with your conclusion. If you are unhappy in marriage, then you are not with the right person. I don't see how someone can be a better person and be simultaneously unhappy.

Emphasis added. You're arguing with guys who have been married for many years. We're telling you that periods of unhappiness are definitely part of every successful marriage; it's unavoidable if you're doing it right.

 

[gkIrish]

So your wife has cancer and is dying. Should you not be married to her because you are "unhappy"?

Happiness is something you will gain and lose consistently through a marriage. If it is the basis of the union itself, then divorce is a self fulfilling prophecy.

First of all someone having cancer does not mean they make you unhappy. You may be sad that they are sick but their actions to do not cause you to be unhappy.

I agree that happiness is something you gain and lose. But if your marriage as a whole is less happy than unhappy, then you are not with the right person IMO.

If someone dreads coming home every day because he hates his wife, but she has forced him to go to church every week, volunteer at a local charity, and made him lose 30 pounds does that mean he should stay in the marriage?

To me the answer is no because there could be someone out there that can make him a better person and not make him unhappy at the same time.

 

[gkIrish]

Emphasis added. You're arguing with guys who have been married for many years. We're telling you that periods of unhappiness are definitely part of every successful marriage; it's unavoidable if you're doing it right.

I understand and have acknowledged that there are periods of unhappiness. You guys are saying you should stay with a person who you hate as long as that person makes you a better member of society.

 

[MNIrishman]

The problem here......you're dealing with 18 y/o kids. They're not always apt to think rational, let alone for most of them to got to school and not make football their top priority. We've had this discussion a million times, you can get a quality education at almost any University as long as you put then effort in, however, if your plan is solely to get to the NFL, depending on how you were raised, academics and money are simply not your biggest concern while in college.

Some universities, like Michigan, are known for dangling academics in front of athletes like a carrot on a stick then actively working against their aspirations once enrolled. So for athletes, some schools may just not offer meaningful academic opportunity, regardless of willingness to put in effort.

 

[connor_in]

OK...last I saw in here wole thought ND was cold....how the heck did we get here?!?!???

 

[MNIrishman]

OK...last I saw in here wole thought ND was cold....how the heck did we get here?!?!???

Derailed by a bad analogy

 

[Whiskeyjack]

If someone dreads coming home every day because he hates his wife, but she has forced him to go to church every week, volunteer at a local charity, and made him lose 30 pounds does that mean he should stay in the marriage?

How could a man hate a woman who loves him enough to do all that?

I understand and have acknowledged that there are periods of unhappiness. You guys are saying you should stay with a person who you hate as long as that person makes you a better member of society.

We're not saying a man should stay with a woman he hates. We're just warning you that your belief that "a successful marriage should make you happy" is dangerously naive. There should be periods of happiness, yes, but that's not what marriage is about.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I would take life advice from a multimillionaire who came from a middle class background and basically has a dream job. Seems like he could actually give me a lot of good advice.

Haha, like what? Chase your dreams? Do what makes you happy? Don't settle for a job that you don't love?

People make a lot of money selling books like that, but sometimes you have to be at the right place at the right time. Some people get lucky. If Bill Simmons comes along 15 years earlier or later, he does something different.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Tyler James Twitter:

Betiku reached out to say he didn't tell Eichenberg that. His explanation: "I told him it was more about the having to be in the dorms for 3 years. I'm a Nigerian I have culture clashes with Americans and I want to have my personal space at least by my sophomore year."

 

[woolybug25]

First of all someone having cancer does not mean they make you unhappy. You may be sad that they are sick but their actions to do not cause you to be unhappy.

I agree that happiness is something you gain and lose. But if your marriage as a whole is less happy than unhappy, then you are not with the right person IMO.

If someone dreads coming home every day because he hates his wife, but she has forced him to go to church every week, volunteer at a local charity, and made him lose 30 pounds does that mean he should stay in the marriage?

To me the answer is no because there could be someone out there that can make him a better person and not make him unhappy at the same time.

I bolded the above to emphasize a major point. If someone was unhappy about those things, then that is when the "marriage" part needs to happen. The partnership needs to about communication and figuring out how both people coexist. What you are insinuating is that two individuals must act as separate people, with the sole purpose of making each other happy. That is not marriage, that is being lovers. That's why so many people get divorced, is they cannot separate the two.

Furthermore, if the above example is happening to a husband, the action shouldn't be divorce simply because he doesn't like the changes his wife wants him to make. How did we get to this place in society where this is the common thought process? As Whiskey mentioned, if you don't have unhappiness, then you aren't working hard enough on your marriage. The union has never, and will never, be about living a carefree lifestyle of unlimited happiness. It's always been about working with a life partner to become better human beings. That means you have to make changes, you have to work past unhappiness and you have to stick to it even when they make you unhappy. Because that is what you vowed to do. If your marriage is based simply on personal happiness, then you certainly shouldn't be married in a church. As one of major themes of a christian marriage is "to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health". Nowhere does it say, "well... make sure you're happy or you're with the wrong person and you should find someone else". You should have figured that out before you made a vow to take on a lifelong mission of working through all situations, whether good or bad.

 

[gkIrish]

Tyler James Twitter:

Betiku reached out to say he didn't tell Eichenberg that. His explanation: "I told him it was more about the having to be in the dorms for 3 years. I'm a Nigerian I have culture clashes with Americans and I want to have my personal space at least by my sophomore year."

He should suck it up and go to ND anyway

 

[woolybug25]

He should suck it up and go to ND anyway

He should go to Notre Dame and then just leave if he's not happy...

 

[MNIrishman]

Tyler James Twitter:

Betiku reached out to say he didn't tell Eichenberg that. His explanation: "I told him it was more about the having to be in the dorms for 3 years. I'm a Nigerian I have culture clashes with Americans and I want to have my personal space at least by my sophomore year."

"I want to live in America, just not WITH Americans, you follow?"

 

[gkIrish]

Whiskey and Wooly---

We are getting pretty far OT now so I don't want to quote your posts but you can definitely hate your wife despite her making you do things that generally make you a better person.

Ignoring the religious objections to divorce, what if you meet someone that you know would make you a better person than your current wife is capable of making you. Under your view, you should get divorced and marry the second person because the ultimate goal is to be the best member of society you can be. Under my theory, if both people make you happy, you don't really have a reason to divorce your wife. What should the person in this example do?