Missouri Football Players to Strike

[IrishinSyria]

Serious question....have there been recent incidents of violence that support the notion that black students were not safe? If not, perhaps that's why Wolfe did not take any specific immediate actions.

Maybe safe wasn't the right word. Welcome? might be a better choice.

My point is that I don't feel super qualified to evaluate the underlying cause here. As a white dude typing away from somewhere on the internet, I don't feel great about my ability to act as an arbiter of what black Mizzou students should or should not feel. My point is that the executive failure here was allowing a critical mass to believe that there was a problem and to believe that not enough was being done to address it.

 

[connor_in]

Quick Question...where is the IE "safe space"?






















asking for a friend...

 

[kmoose]

Maybe safe wasn't the right word. Welcome? might be a better choice.

My point is that I don't feel super qualified to evaluate the underlying cause here. As a white dude typing away from somewhere on the internet, I don't feel great about my ability to act as an arbiter of what black Mizzou students should or should not feel. My point is that the executive failure here was allowing a critical mass to believe that there was a problem and to believe that not enough was being done to address it.

So what solution is there, that doesn't equate to the inmates running the asylum?

 

[gkIrish]

Maybe safe wasn't the right word. Welcome? might be a better choice.

My point is that I don't feel super qualified to evaluate the underlying cause here. As a white dude typing away from somewhere on the internet, I don't feel great about my ability to act as an arbiter of what black Mizzou students should or should not feel. My point is that the executive failure here was allowing a critical mass to believe that there was a problem and to believe that not enough was being done to address it.

52.3% of Americans currently disapprove of President Obama. Is that enough of a critical mass of people who believe he has failed for us to all go on strike from our jobs until he resigns from office?

This may seem like an extreme example but I actually don't think it's much different. I'm guessing 5% of Americans believe Obama is a terrorist. If they all go on hunger strikes is he obligated to resign despite not being a terrorist?

 

[woolybug25]

I'm generally open to your opinions and insights. And, while I do not always agree with you on issues, you always make me think about my own positions. As you know, I have sent you PMs in the past that complimented you on your intellect and fairness. But, in this situation, I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. I'm honestly trying to understand your objections to their "cause." Your positions seem to be uncharacteristically dismissive of these students, and I'm trying to see it as you do. Are you suggesting that "one third of the campus" spontaneously decided to cause chaos for no good reason whatever? Do you not think there is anything to their perception that black students were being treated poorly on campus? It seems to me their objections are about more than just the shit swastika and a truck load of rednecks barking racial slurs. I would guess that those incidents -- ignored by the administration -- were simply the tipping point of something that had a steady undercurrent over a long period of time. You seem to be locked onto a couple of incidents (which you said you do not believe happened) and how they, and they alone, led to the resignation of an "innocent" person. I suspect that the protesting students don't see it that way. I suspect they see this as a problem that is baked into the culture of the campus, and these couple incidents are just the latest examples of a larger widespread injustice.

To the first bolded point, I am saying that a third of the campus spontaneously decided to riot. Just like they did in the Duke Rape Scandal, a small group of people (in this case, the student body president) went to social media and quickly and effectively brought people together. People will use any excuse to "fight the power" especially on a college campus. If that is not the case, then why did this blow up so fast? Why weren't there more groups coming to talk to the faculty before this? Were there no diversity groups on campus before this incident? If this is truly a "widespread problem over a course of time" then why are there no reports of hate crimes to the Mizzou PD? Why have there not been continued protest before this or even any events regarding improving racial ties on campus? There was no major problem until a student body president with #blacklivesmatter on his agenda decided to use facebook and twitter to air out a bunch of unverified, unprovable scenarios as evidence of a race war on campus. Plain and simple.

To the second bolded point, Wolfe did exactly what the policy and procedures called for in this case. He even went out of his way to meet with the group, which was outside of protocol and not something his role mandated. He was thanked for that effort by those same students giving him zero days to try to work on improvements and physically intimidated him by cornering him with angry mobs at every turn. To act like he "did nothing" is completely ridiculous. This was an angry mob, that made their decisions before they even talked to him.

To the final bolded point, this simply isn't true. There have been ZERO race related crimes reported to Mizzou PD since '12. There has been no broad effort to combat campus racism until now. If this was so widespread and a large issue, then why have there been no rally's, no petitions, no events to raise awareness? There simply was a student body president that started posting about all of the unverified racism he saw and started telling people to join "The Cause".

It's horseshit.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Quick Question...where is the IE "safe space"?

asking for a friend...

Let me help you with that:

 

[IrishinSyria]

52.3% of Americans currently disapprove of President Obama. Is that enough of a critical mass of people who believe he has failed for us to all go on strike from our jobs until he resigns from office?

This may seem like an extreme example but I actually don't think it's much different. I'm guessing 5% of Americans believe Obama is a terrorist. If they all go on hunger strikes is he obligated to resign despite not being a terrorist?

If discontent got to the point where half the country was on strike and 5% of the country was on hunger strike then yes, that would be a failure of the executive and he should at least consider resigning. Primary job is to make the machine work, if it falls apart it's on you. It's telling that Obama's disapproval rates are that high and that the scenario you laid out is not even remotely a possibility- it takes a lot for people to act against their own self-interest for a larger cause.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Maybe safe wasn't the right word. Welcome? might be a better choice.

My point is that I don't feel super qualified to evaluate the underlying cause here. As a white dude typing away from somewhere on the internet, I don't feel great about my ability to act as an arbiter of what black Mizzou students should or should not feel. My point is that the executive failure here was allowing a critical mass to believe that there was a problem and to believe that not enough was being done to address it.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel about it, and I'll just add that I'm bothered that so many here do feel comfortable making the judgment that the students are reacting to basically nothing and they're just irrational twits. That doesn't square with what I know about people.

I think so many here are dismissive of the students because of a lack of desire to understand the world from anyone else's perspective, or the mistaken assumption that they do understand the world - and they understand it better than everyone else, even the people that are living a specific situation that they have no possible way to identify with.

 

[IrishinSyria]

So what solution is there, that doesn't equate to the inmates running the asylum?

Maybe there was none and the guy was screwed the second he took the job. But I suspect more engagement and more respect would have done the trick. Not once the protests started, but long before that. Really, once Fergusson happened, this guy should have been on notice that race would be a hot-button issue at Mizzou, and one that he had to handle carefully and proactively.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Exactly! People do not take these sort of risks casually. I am amazed how dismissive some are being about this. It appears that is the very attitude that made this boil up to the level of national attention.

Why would you assume this? College football players are not usually the most prudent people. Mizzou' players commit tons of crimes (no national crisis about that, of course). Surely they don't think that going to prison is going to help them in the NFL draft? But they do stupid things anyway. This is similar. It gets them attention from fawning, oblivious sportswriters, attention that they aren't getting from their 4-5 record.

It's clear too from Pinkel's press conference that he did not know what was going on. Remarkably, there were enough smart sportswriters in the room to ask him whether or not somebody on a hunger strike should get whatever he wanted (the precedent being set) and informing him that you can live without food for weeks. Although Pinkel had said that this student was "dying" (we're all dying) he admitted he did not really know what he was talking about. Perception overcame reality, and Pinkel looks a fool.

I assume Mendoza students are not told that if the guy you are negotiating with threatens to jump out the window if you don't give him everything he wants, you should give him everything he wants?

so you guys think its ok on a campus in 2015 for a group of students to be subjected to racial slurs by fellow students and this isn't a big deal? is that really what you are saying?

You make it sound like every day on their way to class black people have to go through a line of white people yelling racial epithets. Somebody yelling one at somebody else does not reach the level of a national crisis. The turd swastika appearing in a bathroom is creepy, but does not reach the level of firing a President. Something similar happened at my (heavily Jewish) high school (simply scrawled on a wall, not in turd form) and it was discussed at an assembly, but nobody was fired for no reason. No quota demands were issued.

And the list of demands is the key to understanding this. A college President cannot end racism, he cannot (at a public university) expel students for saying something racist, he cannot control what every one of the 35,000 students thinks and says. He can start meaningless "diversity" initiatives, which are a waste of money (and unlike ND, Mizzou and most public universities don't have boatloads of money to waste). And, of course, he can impose quotas in hiring and mandate white guilt courses.

Mizzou has 2,952 faculty (96 are black) and 5,793 administrators (405 are black). You can't easily add a ton of people to the payroll: its a zero-sum game. So these protestors, in effect, want 375 white/Hispanic/Asian faculty and staff to be fired and replaced because of their race.

Is Pinkel going to be among them?

 

[kmoose]

This is pretty much exactly how I feel about it, and I'll just add that I'm bothered that so many people do feel comfortable making the judgment that the students are reacting to basically nothing and they're just irrational twits. That doesn't square with what I know about the world. I think people are dismissive because of a lack of desire to understand the world from anyone else's perspective.

Did you view the video of the reporter trying to take pictures at the CS1950 "camp" on the campus? Have you read the demands that they made of the President? Neither of those things leads me to believe that there is anything rational about this group. That's not a lack of desire to understand the world from someone else's perspective.

 

[gkIrish]

If discontent got to the point where half the country was on strike and 5% of the country was on hunger strike then yes, that would be a failure of the executive and he should at least consider resigning. Primary job is to make the machine work, if it falls apart it's on you. It's telling that Obama's disapproval rates are that high and that the scenario you laid out is not even remotely a possibility- it takes a lot for people to act against their own self-interest for a larger cause.

My point is that passion for a cause does not make that cause worthy. Those 5% of Americans who are batshit crazy passionately hate Obama. Doesn't change the fact that they are crazy. We wouldn't "praise their passion" and salute their convictions as some posters have done here for the protesters. That's BS.

 

[connor_in]

Let me help you with that:

but...but...but...I asked for you big guy...you were the friend...or so I thought...{connor_in shuffles away slowly with a tear in his eye}

 

[Rhode Irish]

Did you view the video of the reporter trying to take pictures at the CS1950 "camp" on the campus? Have you read the demands that they made of the President? Neither of those things leads me to believe that there is anything rational about this group. That's not a lack of desire to understand the world from someone else's perspective.

Yeah, I actually wanted to comment about that video and was looking for the right place to do so. Those people harassing that cameraman are idiots on a number of levels. Just the idea that they don't want media there in the first place is unfathomably stupid, and their lack of understanding that even if they don't want him there he has every right to be there is equally ridiculous. That video was infuriating to watch. Also, hats off to the cameraman who conducted himself far better than I probably would have. That video and the students it shows are a disgrace to higher education in America.

Having said that, though, it doesn't make their underlying grievance unfounded. I've said a number of times here that I don't know enough to endorse the way they're going about having their grievances addressed. I'm not offering an opinion on that, nor am I vouching for the intelligence of every kid or faculty member involved there. I'm just saying lets maybe not be so outright dismissive of the idea that the University of Missouri is not a super welcoming place for black students. That's the entirety of my point.

 

[connor_in]

Yeah, I actually wanted to comment about that video and was looking for the right place to do so. Those people harassing that cameraman are idiots on a number of levels. Just the idea that they don't want media there in the first place is unfathomably stupid, and their lack of understanding that even if they don't want him there he has every right to be there is equally ridiculous. That video was infuriating to watch. Also, hats off to the cameraman who conducted himself far better than I probably would have. That video and the students it shows are a disgrace to higher education in America.

Having said that, though, it doesn't make their underlying grievance unfounded. I've said a number of times here that I don't know enough to endorse the way they're going about having their grievances addressed. I'm not offering an opinion on that, nor am I vouching for the intelligence of every kid or faculty member involved there. I'm just saying lets maybe not be so outright dismissive of the idea that the University of Missouri is not a super welcoming place for black students. That's the entirety of my point.

Concerning the video...fyi...the lady in the sunglasses is a prof on campus...ironically just 1 or 2 days before she was calling for the press so that attention would be brought to the cause (I believe the name is Melissa Clicks)

 

[Rhode Irish]

It's worse than that - I think she is a prof of communications or PR or something which you'd think would require her to know not to do what she did there.

 

[connor_in]

It's worse than that - I think she is a prof of communications or PR or something which you'd think would require her to know not to do what she did there.

assistant prof of mass media

 

[kmoose]

Maybe there was none and the guy was screwed the second he took the job. But I suspect more engagement and more respect would have done the trick. Not once the protests started, but long before that. Really, once Fergusson happened, this guy should have been on notice that race would be a hot-button issue at Mizzou, and one that he had to handle carefully and proactively.

So it's the old white guy's fault, no matter what? He DID take steps to address the situation. He instituted mandatory inclusion and diversity training for all students and staff. Did these kids think that there was something that could be done, that they would wake up one day and everything would be as they wanted it? I mean, they are stupid teenagers, so that's possible. I remember being that age. Why should Ferguson have put him on notice? Ferguson was about police vs. blacks. I'm not saying that he should not have been a little more vigilant after Ferguson, but should he have blown up the curriculum and staffing at all four campuses of the Missouri system, just in case? If this guy was the problem, then why aren't the other 3 campuses having these same issues? I am empathetic to the cause of these students. But, while I am empathetic to their cause, that doesn't mean that I accept all of their tactics and methods.

 

[connor_in]

I apologize.

I referenced the wrong lady in the video.

UNREAL: Mass Media Professor Demands "Some Muscle" To Remove Reporter From Mizzou Protest Camp - Katie Pavlich

The one asking for muscle was the redhead and she is the asst prof of mass media

 

[kmoose]

I've said a number of times here that I don't know enough to endorse the way they're going about having their grievances addressed. I'm not offering an opinion on that, nor am I vouching for the intelligence of every kid or faculty member involved there. I'm just saying lets maybe not be so outright dismissive of the idea that the University of Missouri is not a super welcoming place for black students. That's the entirety of my point.

I don't think anyone is being "outright dismissive of the idea that the University of Missouri is not a super welcoming place for black students". In fact, I think most people agree that there is a problem there, and are sympathetic to that. The problem, as I see it, is that this group made, and continues to make, outrageous, unrealistic, and maybe even impossible demands; and a University President had to step down because of it.

 

[GoIrish41]

To the first bolded point, I am saying that a third of the campus spontaneously decided to riot. Just like they did in the Duke Rape Scandal, a small group of people (in this case, the student body president) went to social media and quickly and effectively brought people together. People will use any excuse to "fight the power" especially on a college campus. If that is not the case, then why did this blow up so fast? Why weren't there more groups coming to talk to the faculty before this? Were there no diversity groups on campus before this incident? If this is truly a "widespread problem over a course of time" then why are there no reports of hate crimes to the Mizzou PD? Why have there not been continued protest before this or even any events regarding improving racial ties on campus? There was no major problem until a student body president with #blacklivesmatter on his agenda decided to use facebook and twitter to air out a bunch of unverified, unprovable scenarios as evidence of a race war on campus. Plain and simple.

To the second bolded point, Wolfe did exactly what the policy and procedures called for in this case. He even went out of his way to meet with the group, which was outside of protocol and not something his role mandated. He was thanked for that effort by those same students giving him zero days to try to work on improvements and physically intimidated him by cornering him with angry mobs at every turn. To act like he "did nothing" is completely ridiculous. This was an angry mob, that made their decisions before they even talked to him.

To the final bolded point, this simply isn't true. There have been ZERO race related crimes reported to Mizzou PD since '12. There has been no broad effort to combat campus racism until now. If this was so widespread and a large issue, then why have there been no rally's, no petitions, no events to raise awareness? There simply was a student body president that started posting about all of the unverified racism he saw and started telling people to join "The Cause".

It's horseshit.

Thanks for the response, Wooly. This may be one of those instances in which I do not agree with your take, but you certainly bring up some valid points to think about.

I'm not certain, however, that I believe there needs to be racial hate crimes for their to be an institutional problem with racism. It's not a crime for someone to use a racial slur, for example, but if every day on his way to class a student had to listen to people directing that racial slur at him, I'd say that no crime has been committed, but that is still a big problem. Someone posted earlier that on Black History Month, cotton balls were found scattered on the floor in front of the Black Student Union (I think the org was something different, but something along those lines). Students who attend a university should not have to put up with that kind of ignorant bigotry and harrassment.

I believe Wolfe's resignation remarks indicated he did not believe he did enough to solve the racial problems on campus. He seemed to be saying his focus was on what could not be done, and he failed to focus on what could be done. Perhaps the students agreed, and found that his approach was part of the problem. You may be right about the "angry mob" observation. I don't know. I wasn't there and don't have any unique perspective on the situation. I just have a hard time believing that people would put so much at risk for something that they read on Twitter, if they didn't feel like they had skin in the game. Maybe I'm just naive.

Again, thanks for the response.

 

[Black Irish]

Jumping on bandwagons isn't just for sports fans. A small group of loud, impassioned protestors can recruit followers pretty easily. It's how mobs form. Most people are followers, most people want to belong, especially if they think they are getting involved with something important and exciting. The fact that a bunch of students jumped on this particular bandwagon is not automatic proof that there is a serious and widespread problem.

 

[connor_in]

Melissa Click: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

 

[GoIrish41]

Jumping on bandwagons isn't just for sports fans. A small group of loud, impassioned protestors can recruit followers pretty easily. It's how mobs form. Most people are followers, most people want to belong, especially if they think they are getting involved with something important and exciting. The fact that a bunch of students jumped on this particular bandwagon is not automatic proof that there is a serious and widespread problem.

Sure, I can go along with that. But, the fact that things moved quickly is certainly not proof that a bunch of disinterested people jumped on the bandwagon either. If people say they have experienced racism, why should we automatically discount what they say? It seems a little dismissive to me that the initial reaction to a complaint is 'entitled brats, lemmings, BS faux cause." If nothing else that reaction just re-enforces their complaint, IMHO.

 

[gkIrish]

Melissa Click: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

When you have people like that educating those students, it makes you wonder.

 

[kmoose]

Can you imagine the sh!tstorm if it turned out that the faculty and students involved in keeping the media out of the tent village were doing so in order to make sure no one got photographic evidence of Jonathan Butler sitting in one of those tents, eating a pizza?

 

[BeauBenken]

Can you imagine the sh!tstorm if it turned out that the faculty and students involved in keeping the media out of the tent village were doing so in order to make sure no one got photographic evidence of Jonathan Butler sitting in one of those tents, eating a pizza?

I honest to god thought about this...because why would you not want your story out there?

EDIT: Not trying to suggest I actually think this is what's going on, but the thought crossed my mind.

 

[irishff1014]

What are you talking about? There was no "group of student subjected to slurs", there was an off campus incident (supposedly) where a black student was yelled at from a moving vehicle and another supposed incident where a student claimed to have seen a swastika made of crap.

People keep acting like a verifiable, public action of racism took place that has caused all of this. These cases are isolated and unverified. It's a bunch of rioting over a couple random acts. Not large scale, institutional racism.

Again... there are 35k students at this school. There were 7 rapes and a myriad of assaults actually reported to the Mizzou PD that apparently are less important than someone getting called a mean name off campus. Apparently the faculty of the school should be busy making widespread change because of unverified stories about human crap being made into a hate symbol. That's what they should be focused on. That is what needs to be rioted against.

Another great post.

 

[kmoose]

I honest to god thought about this...because why would you not want your story out there?

Honestly? I'm starting to wonder if this wasn't just a group of academics and teenagers just trying to be rebellious, and choosing a cause du jour to cloak it in. You could hear that lady prof in the video cheerleading the kids on. At about the :45 to :50 second mark, you can hear her say something to the effect of "Students, can you tell him how much he needs to go?", at which point the students start chanting. At about the 1:00 mark, you can hear her tell the students, as their chanting starts to peter out......... "I can't hear you!"

 

[connor_in]

University of Missouri Police Ask Students to Report ‘Hurtful Speech’ | Mediaite