2016 Presidential Horse Race

[connor_in]

Stop it with your logic! Bilbo/Frodo 2016!

 

[GoIrish41]

It is not binary, no...technically.

Effectively though, it has been for a number of years. The most recent close breakout of a 3rd party affecting the outcome of an election (prominently) was WJC first election in 1992 in which Ross Perot did have an effect on the outcome as neither D nor R had a majority, but WJC had a plurality to win. Some argue that third party candidate had an effect on W vs Gore enough to tip the scales in certain states as well, but it was not as prominent as 1992 with the % of votes Perot got.

I voted for Perot ... twice. And yet, I'm a Democrat. Weird.

 

[gkIrish]

The fact that the people who align with kmoose politically are defending kmoose on a completely non-substantive issue tells me all I need to know. #useyourbrain

Now I remember why I don't read this thread.

 

[RDU Irish]

I voted for Perot ... twice. And yet, I'm a Democrat. Weird.

My first Presidential vote was for Perot - Wait.... we aren't allowed to agree on anything?!?!

How is this political climate worse for a third party candidate than 1992/1996? It seems today's media - social and otherwise - would lend to a much easier third party route than 20+ years ago. Is there really no viable third party candidate or is it that no self respecting human would put themselves through this crap? I think the animosity toward the system is much worse than back then to boot.

 

[GoIrish41]

My first Presidential vote was for Perot - Wait.... we aren't allowed to agree on anything?!?!

How is this political climate worse for a third party candidate than 1992/1996? It seems today's media - social and otherwise - would lend to a much easier third party route than 20+ years ago. Is there really no viable third party candidate or is it that no self respecting human would put themselves through this crap? I think the animosity toward the system is much worse than back then to boot.

It all starts with a viable candidate with a willingness to wade through a river of crap. But even if those two factors were met, the journey toward the White House is steeper today because there are mountains of money to climb before a third party candidate could even see his or her way to a reasonable starting point. The electoral system is rigged (which is where the animosity begins IMO). Whomever becomes president has to do something to get all of this billionaire money out of politics, or candidates are going to start wearing suits with corporate sponsorships.

 

[kmoose]

The fact that the people who align with kmoose politically are defending kmoose on a completely non-substantive issue tells me all I need to know. #useyourbrain

Now I remember why I don't read this thread.

The fact you appear to be solely focused on me tells me all I need to know. #revisitgk

 

[kmoose]

It all starts with a viable candidate with a willingness to wade through a river of crap. But even if those two factors were met, the journey toward the White House is steeper today because there are mountains of money to climb before a third party candidate could even see his or her way to a reasonable starting point. The electoral system is rigged (which is where the animosity begins IMO). Whomever becomes president has to do something to get all of this billionaire money out of politics, or candidates are going to start wearing suits with corporate sponsorships.

I don't know if the system is rigged, perse', but the entire political system is certainly in GREAT favor of the two main parties. I think that's why, even if Carson, Trump, et al (The Outsiders) don't get the nomination.......... just to have them polling well is a good sign that there is hope to reform that system.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I don't know if the system is rigged, perse', but the entire political system is certainly in GREAT favor of the two main parties. I think that's why, even if Carson, Trump, et al (The Outsiders) don't get the nomination.......... just to have them polling well is a good sign that there is hope to reform that system.

It's rigged in that you need a billionaire backer in order to get a sniff. Citizens United, in the name of "more speech," has only compounded that.

 

[ACamp1900]

At this point we should just start some massive movement to write in "Donald Duck" (I mean he votes every election)... and have him win the the whole damned thing, if only to send a message to the clowns in DC... on a sidenote, what would happen it some stunt like that were to actually happen, that would prob make a pretty good movie....

 

[GoIrish41]

I don't know if the system is rigged, perse', but the entire political system is certainly in GREAT favor of the two main parties. I think that's why, even if Carson, Trump, et al (The Outsiders) don't get the nomination.......... just to have them polling well is a good sign that there is hope to reform that system.

There is absolutely no circumstance in which I would consider it a good thing that Carson and Trump were polling at the top of my party. It is not a positive that the party has reached to "despiration" candidates. I take your point, though, that it is certainly isn't the status quo in the GOP this year, but I suspect that has a lot more to do with the party being an ideological dumster fire than it does with a course correction of the system.

 

[kmoose]

It's rigged in that you need a billionaire backer in order to get a sniff. Citizens United, in the name of "more speech," has only compounded that.

I disagree. I think someone famous, but not overly wealthy, could be a serious candidate. The thing is, most famous people are reasonably wealthy. A sports figure like Dan Marino or Magic Johnson could have parlayed their fame into votes. They'd never actually get elected, but they might put up enough of a showing to get people to take notice.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I disagree. I think someone famous, but not overly wealthy, could be a serious candidate. The thing is, most famous people are reasonably wealthy. A sports figure like Dan Marino or Magic Johnson could have parlayed their fame into votes. They'd never actually get elected, but they might put up enough of a showing to get people to take notice.

I think you'd be surprised what negative ad money would do to those folks. Magic would have to answer questions about his illness and Marino would have to answer questions about Ray Finkle (Laces Out For America PAC). Not everyone with big money wins, but everyone who wins has big money.

 

[ACamp1900]

You guys saying Donald Duck would never win unless Disney bankrolled him????

 

[IrishJayhawk]

You guys saying Donald Duck would never win unless Disney bankrolled him????

Or Sheldon Adelson

 

[NDgradstudent]

It is not a positive that the party has reached to "despiration" candidates.

What is more desperate than nominating someone whose main accomplishment is being married to a previous President?

 

[ACamp1900]

Or Sheldon Adelson

That fool so reminds me of the Remo Gaggi character from 'Casino', even without the Vegas connection....

 

[GoIrish41]

What is more desperate than nominating someone whose main accomplishment is being married to a previous President?

I hate Tom Brady more than any football player in history. But I would never deny his obvious talent or accomplishments. I understand your hatred for Clinton but not your delusions about her resume. If you cannot see why Trump and Carson are making a mockery of the GOP that is a "you" problem.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Or Sheldon Adelson

Interesting that you bring him up...the reason that Trump is doing so well is that GOP voters are sick of the party's immigration policy being so out of line with the party's voting base. Adelson and other donors, who want cheap labor, are the reason for this incongruity. They have attempted to buy the party leadership, and largely succeeded. As they are learning, voters are not included in this purchase.

I hate Tom Brady more than any football player in history. But I would never deny his obvious talent or accomplishments. I understand your hatred for Clinton but not your delusions about her resume. If you cannot see why Trump and Carson are making a mockery of the GOP that is a "you" problem.

Can you name something on her 'resume' that is not the result of her being Bill Clinton's wife?

 

[GoIrish41]

Interesting that you bring him up...the reason that Trump is doing so well is that GOP voters are sick of the party's immigration policy being so out of line with the party's voting base. Adelson and other donors, who want cheap labor, are the reason for this incongruity. They have attempted to buy the party leadership, and largely succeeded. As they are learning, voters are not included in this purchase.



Can you name something on her 'resume' that is not the result of her being Bill Clinton's wife?

Can you name something that you would not so attribute? She is a very smart and talented politician who has been a successful attorney, senator and Secretary of State. I don't like her either, but your assertions are silly and spiteful.

 

[Grahambo]

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[NDgradstudent]

Can you name something that you would not so attribute? She is a very smart and talented politician who has been a successful attorney, senator and Secretary of State. I don't like her either, but your assertions are silly and spiteful.

Yeah: going to Yale Law School certainly counts. Being a successful attorney does too. Those characteristics describe a reasonably large group of people, though. Other than those items, all of her 'accomplishments' are the result of who she married. She was a Senator because she was the Democratic candidate in a blue state. Why was she the candidate? Because of her husband. As we all remember, the Democrats rejected her in 2008 because even they disliked her. Some job had to be found for her, and so she was made Secretary of State. Unlike in 2008, there are apparently no better options this year, and so she's back. Everybody knows this; the Democrats have decided it doesn't matter. But maybe Democrats shouldn't be lecturing others about 'desperation' candidates.

This is also the reason I'm not impressed by the fact that she is a woman. Margaret Thatcher had none of these advantages; she became the most powerful woman in Britain in 1979. Can you name Margaret Thatcher's husband? Most people cannot. Can you name Hillary Clinton's husband? That's my point.

 

[kmoose]

Can you name something that you would not so attribute? She is a very smart and talented politician who has been a successful attorney, senator and Secretary of State. I don't like her either, but your assertions are silly and spiteful.

I think two things here;

1. An argument could be made, that none of these three positions of hers were "successful".

2. It's very likely that #2 and #3 are a result of her marriage to Clinton.

 

[GoIrish41]

Yeah: going to Yale Law School certainly counts. Being a successful attorney does too. Those characteristics describe a reasonably large group of people, though. Other than those items, all of her 'accomplishments' are the result of who she married. She was a Senator because she was the Democratic candidate in a blue state. Why was she the candidate? Because of her husband. As we all remember, the Democrats rejected her in 2008 because even they disliked her. Some job had to be found for her, and so she was made Secretary of State. Unlike in 2008, there are apparently no better options this year, and so she's back. Everybody knows this; the Democrats have decided it doesn't matter. But maybe Democrats shouldn't be lecturing others about 'desperation' candidates.

This is also the reason I'm not impressed by the fact that she is a woman. Margaret Thatcher had none of these advantages; she became the most powerful woman in Britain in 1979. Can you name Margaret Thatcher's husband? Most people cannot. Can you name Hillary Clinton's husband? That's my point.

So if she would not have married Bill, she'd be living in a trailer park on the outskirts of Little Rock selling meth? Impossible that two talented politicians got married. I have heard Bill many times attribute his political successes in large part to her influence and help. But you must be right because she is just a dumb girl who needed a man to prop her up!

 

[GoIrish41]

I think two things here;

1. An argument could be made, that none of these three positions of hers were "successful".

2. It's very likely that #2 and #3 are a result of her marriage to Clinton.

Sure that argument could be made. It would not mean it would be correct. We will never know what would have happened if she married someone else. I suspect she would have taken a similar path into politics. If all First Ladies went on to be senators and Secretaries of State, I'd say "there we go again," but she is the first to make a career for herself in politics after her husband's terms. Give her a little credit. She is smart and driven, whether we like her or not.

 

[kmoose]

Sure that argument could be made. It would not mean it would be correct. We will never know what would have happened if she married someone else. I suspect she would have taken a similar path into politics. If all First Ladies went on to be senators and Secretaries of State, I'd say "there we go again," but she is the first to make a career for herself in politics after her husband's terms. Give her a little credit. She is smart and driven, whether we like her or not.

I will give her VERY little credit. I mean, how smart and driven do you have to be to say, "I want a blank political check from EVERY single party leader, or I will not only divorce the son-of-a-bitch, but I'll tell the world the truth about all of the other women, and all of the back door deals that have kept it quiet."?

 

[Buster Bluth]

Sure that argument could be made. It would not mean it would be correct. We will never know what would have happened if she married someone else. I suspect she would have taken a similar path into politics. If all First Ladies went on to be senators and Secretaries of State, I'd say "there we go again," but she is the first to make a career for herself in politics after her husband's terms. Give her a little credit. She is smart and driven, whether we like her or not.

Yeah I'm really hating this "Clinton is just a First Lady!" bullshit. It's too sexist for IE, we can do better. There are so many endless reasons to hate the Clintons, why go to that level.

 

[GoIrish41]

I will give her VERY little credit. I mean, how smart and driven do you have to be to say, "I want a blank political check from EVERY single party leader, or I will not only divorce the son-of-a-bitch, but I'll tell the world the truth about all of the other women, and all of the back door deals that have kept it quiet."?

Did she tell you all that in confidence or have you just convinced yourself that's what happened? Good Lord!

 

[GoIrish41]

Yeah I'm really hating this "Clinton is just a First Lady!" bullshit. It's too sexist for IE, we can do better. There are so many endless reasons to hate the Clintons, why go to that level.

Right. I don't like her myself, but c'mon!

 

[kmoose]

Did she tell you all that in confidence or have you just convinced yourself that's what happened? Good Lord!

It's not the only explanation, but its a pretty likely one considering that Hilary Clinton had never even lived in New York until January of 2000, but was elected Senator in November of that year.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Can you name something that you would not so attribute? She is a very smart and talented politician who has been a successful attorney, senator and Secretary of State. I don't like her either, but your assertions are silly and spiteful.

Uh... successful attorney? So successful she flubbed the biggest case of her career in Watergate. Why? She was putting political ambitions ahead of ethical behavior.

Successful senator? What exactly did she accomplish as a senator that deems her senatorial career a success?

Sec of State? Libya ring a bell?

I will give you that she is a successful politician. She knows how to play the game to benefit herself, her career, and her pocket book. Her success in the three categories you mention.... laughable.