Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[woolybug25]

I think there's a middle ground between "cherry pick the best seasons" and "include every single season of the guy's career." Brian Kelly going 8-5 in 2010 is awesome. Brian Kelly going 8-5 in 2014 is decidedly less awesome.

No argument there. Nobody seems to be making that argument though. They want to take three seasons out of 20+ years of coaching career and then compare that to cherry picked seasons for other schools. Then claim he sucks as a coach.

 

[Luckylucci]

Here's what I don't get. Why does our success this year automatically make last years disappointing season better? It doesn't and it shouldn't. Last year was a disappointing job with a talented enough roster to win more games. We didn't, end of story. This year we have similar circumstances to last with a plague of injuries but we've done a better job with the players we've been dealt. Great job Kelly. I don't get why they two have to be correlated at all. Overachieve this year and underachieve last. Pretty simple.

 

[wizards8507]

Maybe Kelly didn't have the same type of personnel around Golson? Maybe circumstances dictated that Golson NEEDED to do more?

That's like saying "maybe Kelly needed Tommy Rees to run a 4.4." It doesn't matter if he "needed" it. Golson was incapable.

 

[kmoose]

Lastly, I don't think expecting over a 5-7 year window averaging 10 wins is too much. A lot of schools are doing that.

How many?

 

[wizards8507]

How many?

It doesn't matter how many. Even if the answer is "a very select, elite few," the University of Notre Dame should be among the "very select, elite few" of college football.

 

[kmoose]

That's like saying "maybe Kelly needed Tommy Rees to run a 4.4." It doesn't matter if he "needed" it. Golson was incapable.

*sigh* So how did Kelly fvck it up? Explain it to me.

 

[Luckylucci]

Sorry............... that should have read "that doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for it". My bad.

K, and thats where I'm at. I think success should be measured at 10 wins per season. If we are ahead of that great and if we're behind that then I'd say not achieved the goal yet.

BTW, Lou S at BGI who is one of the most knowledgeable guys you'll ever talk to regarding ND football history says that his standard is 10 wins. If you can consistently win 10 games then you are a program. I agree with that assessment. If we win 11 or 12 this year then it gets us on that track for Kelly's tenure and big cheers to the staff.

 

[wizards8507]

*sigh* So how did Kelly fvck it up? Explain it to me.

I don't know, I'm not at practice every day. All I know is what I see on Saturdays, and what I saw on Saturdays from Golson last year was a tremendous athlete finding new and creative ways to fuck up football games.

 

[Irish Insanity]

No argument there. Nobody seems to be making that argument though. They want to take three seasons out of 20+ years of coaching career and then compare that to cherry picked seasons for other schools. Then claim he sucks as a coach.

No, we want to use the rocords and time frame that actually pertains to us. So that's his tenure at ND. Those that want us to blindly follow and support him want to widen the spectrum to his entire career to help their argument stay afloat. So if we hang around 8 wins for the next 10 years is that still acceptable being he's had such a great career before ND? Or even 5? No other program he coached played against the tallent level we do. Living on past success isn't typically something successful people do. I doubt BK himself would be satisfied with averaging 8.5 regular season wins a year, I'm not either.

Oh, and I still don't see anyone here claiming he sucks as a coach. We can desire more success without that meaning we think he sucks. Just like we can revisit BK without calling for his head.

 

[Luckylucci]

How many?

Honestly, I'm not going to go check but enough to make it an acceptable level of performance to measure up against.

 

[yankeeND]

Honestly, I'm not going to go check but enough to make it an acceptable level of performance to measure up against.

Lucky, don't get sucked into this crazy thread, we need you fresh to report important recruiting news lol.

 

[Irish Insanity]

That's like saying "maybe Kelly needed Tommy Rees to run a 4.4." It doesn't matter if he "needed" it. Golson was incapable.

The thing is I remember Kelly saying a few times that he will mold his offense to fit his players. Yet with Golson it seemed so obvious he wasn't.

 

[kmoose]

It doesn't matter how many. Even if the answer is "a very select, elite few," the University of Notre Dame should be among the "very select, elite few" of college football.

It does matter when the poster is trying to make it sound like it is no big accomplishment. After all, "a lot of teams are doing it"...

 

[kmoose]

Honestly, I'm not going to go check but enough to make it an acceptable level of performance to measure up against.

So you come in and make it sound like it's no big deal, but you aren't going to look it up? Thanks for the contribution...........

*by the way, it took me less than 3 minutes on the Google to find out.

 

[Irish#1]

There are three separate arguments:

1) This season's offensive performance is historic
-My argument = offense has been very good, but not historic. We have played terrible defenses.

2) Playcalling this season has been good
-I generally agree

3) Playcalling since 2010 has been good considering all the things BK has to deal with
-I disagree. Using my eyes, I know that the playcalling was generally bad for 5 years. The excuses for why the playcalling was bad are ultimately BK's fault.

They may not be historical when you compare to teams like Baylor and TCU, but it is when comparing against previous Irish teams. If this team sets all kinds of offensive records for an ND team, then that is historic. That's the point. In addition, ND might be able to control who they schedule, but they can't control how that team plays that given year. No one is going to put an asterisk next to any records denoting that Georgia Tech or Texas under performed that year.

I'm starting to severely procrastinate at my job, which I just started in June. Can't take the time to respond to every post which just keeps repeating that I don't make sense and want to fire Kelly. I just can't. So if you guys want to pile on, be my guest.

Don't want you top lose your job my friend, but for some reason you feel compelled to reply. I think most understand exactly what you've been saying. The problem appears to be your unwillingness to acknowledge something that disproves a point.

Maybe Golson is doing better in Tallahassee because he doesn't have to do as much?

There's an article out there somewhere that talks about Golson being asked to do less than previous years. It could also be that the light finally went on for EG once he heard a lot of the same things from Jimbo that he had been hearing from BK.

 

[woolybug25]

No, we want to use the rocords and time frame that actually pertains to us. So that's his tenure at ND. Those that want us to blindly follow and support him want to widen the spectrum to his entire career to help their argument stay afloat. So if we hang around 8 wins for the next 10 years is that still acceptable being he's had such a great career before ND? Or even 5? No other program he coached played against the tallent level we do. Living on past success isn't typically something successful people do. I doubt BK himself would be satisfied with averaging 8.5 regular season wins a year, I'm not either.

So why aren't you comparing him to programs that have had coaches for 5 years at a similar level of football instead of using comparisons like Stanford (two coaches) and NIU (MAC level)? I doubt BK is looking at his win percentage at Notre Dame and comparing it like you are either. He is simply working on getting better every day and "successful people" usually use what they have learned over long, successful careers to gauge that improvement.

In your example, you are pretty much saying that any coach that doesn't average 10+ wins a year should be fired, correct? Because they obviously aren't cutting it and people with your "successful person outlook" on wins aren't satisfied, correct?

 

[ACamp1900]

So you come in and make it sound like it's no big deal, but you aren't going to look it up? Thanks for the contribution...........

*by the way, it took me less than 3 minutes on the Google to find out.

 

[Luckylucci]

So you come in and make it sound like it's no big deal, but you aren't going to look it up? Thanks for the contribution...........

*by the way, it took me less than 3 minutes on the Google to find out.

Then what is it?

 

[Rocket89]

But everyone else needs to breakdown every offense above us to prove we aren't underperforming and if anyone disagrees with you they need to go through 40some pages of the thread and prove it? Otherwise they are just accusing you of hating BK for no reason?

You've really positioned this thread as a win-win for yourself. lol

We used to live in a world where no one dared criticize Kelly and thought everything with Notre Dame football was amazing. Then this thread changed everything.

Does it really matter what gk criticizes? No, it does not. We should be thanking him for opening our eyes for without this thread we'd all be blind supporters incapable of any negativity against Notre Dame.

 

[kmoose]

Then what is it?

Let me ask you this........

How did you conclude that it is "a lot", if you have never looked it up to see how many it is?

 

[Luckylucci]

We used to live in a world where no one dared criticize Kelly and thought everything with Notre Dame football was amazing. Then this thread changed everything.

Does it really matter what gk criticizes? No, it does not. We should be thanking him for opening our eyes for without this thread we'd all be blind supporters incapable of any negativity against Notre Dame.

Sincerely, I not really sure how this benefits anybody. So you come in here to take a cheap shot at GK? You don't have to agree but this doesn't help anything, just don't follow it.

 

[Luckylucci]

Let me ask you this........

How did you conclude that it is "a lot", if you have never looked it up to see how many it is?

Wow, you genuinely like arguing more than having productive conversations. You've now wasted more time than the "3 minutes" it took you to look it up.

 

[koonja]

It's an oxymoron that the posters who say 'don't have an opinion ever unless you have facts' visit a discussion board.

 

[Rocket89]

Sincerely, I not really sure how this benefits anybody. So you come in here to take a cheap shot at GK? You don't have to agree but this doesn't help anything, just don't follow it.

How is it a cheap shot if that's exactly what he thinks?

It should help plenty. There's no point in arguing with gk because he'll just keep moving the goal posts and moving on to some other issue with ND. And when others point it out, he and a couple others sell us the line you quoted from me.

I see a lot of benefit in pointing that out.

 

[gkIrish]

GK - Playcalling is HORRIBLE!

IE - We have a statistically good offense

GK - But look at who we played!

IE - It's just as good or, in most cases, better than the teams ranked above us.

GK - But BAMA!

IE - [/blank stare]

GK - Ok. Thanks. Gotta go. Bye.

Bro---Baylor literally averages 30 points more per game than we do. And you argue that because they happen to face worse defenses than us that somehow makes our opponents look like the 85 Bears...

If we go through every single team on the list we will end up in the exact same place. The point is really simple. On average, we play the 68th ranked team in scoring defense. So on average, we played a below average opponent defensively. You would expect the Notre Dame football team to be a top 20 offense in the country if they play the 68th team, on average.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Again, at no time did I ever mention anyone getting fired. Hell I've stated that several times. Let's stay in context. And I didn't make a comparison with him and any other coach. I responded to another poster who cited programs averaging 10 wins recently.
BTW, Kelly's record from Central Michigan up to ND, so his time in big boy football, is 104 and 43 including this year. That's .707. His record at ND is 51 and 21, .708. Seems to be fairly consistent with averaging 8.5 wins thru his career at the big boy level.

*again I don't think he sucks or should get fired.

 

[yankeeND]

Here's what I don't get. Why does our success this year automatically make last years disappointing season better? It doesn't and it shouldn't. Last year was a disappointing job with a talented enough roster to win more games. We didn't, end of story. This year we have similar circumstances to last with a plague of injuries but we've done a better job with the players we've been dealt. Great job Kelly. I don't get why they two have to be correlated at all. Overachieve this year and underachieve last. Pretty simple.

This is right, but I think if you look at both years, knowing that one was the previous and look at the improvements made, you have to see that there were actions put in place to combat the injuries(depth), and then look at the revisions in scheme, play calling, and development to see that Kelly recognized that last year was a failure to everybody's standards. The thing that I keep trying to emphasize in this thread is that Kelly is constantly adjusting, which is something we haven't seen from the head coach at ND in quite some time. There is a direct correlation from season to season, and that is how we should evaluate the coaches along with the entire body of work. That is the only way I know to assess regression and improvements.

 

[connor_in]

I think the biggest thing in this conversation is the disconnect between the groups.

You have those lived and died thru Davie and Willingham and Weis and are not happy with 8-5 but see that we are better but necessarily smiled on by the football gods.

Then you have those that feel that ND is a national power and should always be at the very top no matter what.

Group #1 wants what group #2 does, but does not see it as realistic in todays world. There are examples of it, but they tend to be few and far between.

Group #2 thinks group #1 merely swallows what the coaches say and thus are basically sheep and never question the ND football powers that be.

Personally, group #1 and group #2 need to realize that here is a bit of both sides entwined in the DNA of both sides. Yes, there are disagreements on how things are/should be done. This is a fan message board. I just want both sides to not be shi++y with each other, because at the end of the day we all love this team and want it to be the best.

/end rant

 

[gkIrish]

We used to live in a world where no one dared criticize Kelly and thought everything with Notre Dame football was amazing. Then this thread changed everything.

Does it really matter what gk criticizes? No, it does not. We should be thanking him for opening our eyes for without this thread we'd all be blind supporters incapable of any negativity against Notre Dame.

What world was that? The 2012 world? That was a long time ago bro.

 

[Irish Insanity]

How is it a cheap shot if that's exactly what he thinks?

It should help plenty. There's no point in arguing with gk because he'll just keep moving the goal posts and moving on to some other issue with ND. And when others point it out, he and a couple others sell us the line you quoted from me.

I see a lot of benefit in pointing that out.

This post is laughable considering if you actually read the thread thru, everyone else is 'moving the goal posts' on GK or anyone who shares his opinion. Not the other way around.