2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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Cackalacky

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I never said it was sustainable. Other species in nature have adapted over time, and so do we need to.

What I was trying to point out is that there seems to be this idea that man has to be fair to other men, like animals are. When, in fact, the animal world is a dog eat dog world of survival of the fittest.

To be clear: I would like for every American to have a comfortable standard of living; even those who cannot work. I'd like for every American to have above adequate healthcare. I'd like for every American to be well educated for free. I'd like for every American to have a positive outlook. However, if we can't afford it, then we can't afford it.

Specifically... to the bold.... my point is that man currently is way out of balance with nature. Everything else flows from this starting point. We can't be anything if we have no home. We can't make anything if we have no resources. We can't eat if we have no food or foul the land so much our food sources die. We won't have a group if we keep emphasizing individualism.

And as to the dog eat dog point, social animals do not do that ( like most lower forms of animals). Social animals have hierarchies but the individuals do as well as the group does. Individuals that are cast out do not fair as well so its important to have a cohesive group dynamic that is in balance with the environment. Rejecting this simple ecological and anthropological truth is pretty narrow minded and shortsighted.

Empathy, sharing, and many other group/social behaviors evolved from social animals need to survive as a group. So when we say we need to take care of other people that is why. Its inherent in our survival mechanisms. Denying that is foolish.
 
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wizards8507

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Specifically... to the bold.... my point is that man currently is way out of balance with nature. Everything else flows from this starting point. We can't be anything if we have no home. We can't make anything if we have no resources. We can't eat if we have no food or foul the land so much our food sources die. We won't have a group if we keep emphasizing individualism.
That's all very sweet and idealistic, but how are you going to make it happen? I want there to be a cure for cancer, but I'm realistic enough to realize that the only way people are going to invest time and money into cancer research is if they'll be able to sell the cure and get filthy rich. The profit motive is the great incentivizer. I'm not making a normative statement that profit motive should be the great incentivizer, I'm acknowledging that it objectively is, whether you like it or not. We can't change human nature, so we need an economic system that channels human nature to productive ends.
 

kmoose

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Specifically... to the bold.... my point is that man currently is way out of balance with nature. Everything else flows from this starting point. We can't be anything if we have no home. We can't make anything if we have no resources. We can't eat if we have no food or foul the land so much our food sources die. We won't have a group if we keep emphasizing individualism.

And as to the dog eat dog point, social animals do not do that ( like most lower forms of animals). Social animals have hierarchies but the individuals do as well as the group does. Individuals that are cast out do not fair as well so its important to have a cohesive group dynamic that is in balance with the environment. Rejecting this simple ecological and anthropological truth is pretty narrow minded and shortsighted.

Empathy, sharing, and many other group/social behaviors evolved from social animals need to survive as a group. So when we say we need to take care of other people that is why. Its inherent in our survival mechanisms. Denying that is foolish.

Out of balance how? When the cheetahs do not predate enough wildebeests, the savannahs of Africa become overgrazed, and create huge duststorms. When the cheetahs over-predate the wildebeests, more grass is left uneaten, and withers and dies. This leads to large grass fires which wipe out habitat for a number of other species. Nature is not some "always in balance" thing. It is a series of disasters and corrections. Much like the world economy. I'm not advocating that we not look for ways to better provide our material wants, without impacting the earth as much as we do. I'm just saying that sitting around singing kumbaya while we count out equal stacks of money for everyone in the group is not any more in tune with nature than what is happening currently.
 
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Cackalacky

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That's all very sweet and idealistic, but how are you going to make it happen? I want there to be a cure for cancer, but I'm realistic enough to realize that the only way people are going to invest time and money into cancer research is if they'll be able to sell the cure and get filthy rich. The profit motive is the great incentivizer. I'm not making a normative statement that profit motive should be the great incentivizer, I'm acknowledging that it objectively is, whether you like it or not. We can't change human nature, so we need an economic system that channels human nature to productive ends.

Its not idealistic. It is reality. It only seems idealistic from the skewed vantage point of a dogmatic economic philosophy that is deeply ingrained in our modern society. Its perpetuated by us which is a positive feed back loop. Its why we will damage this place to the point of no return. We are smart. We can figure out a way to do things that involves sharing of resources in a manner that is sustainable sans the profit motive.
 
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Cackalacky

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Out of balance how? When the cheetahs do not predate enough wildebeests, the savannahs of Africa become overgrazed, and create huge duststorms. When the cheetahs over-predate the wildebeests, more grass is left uneaten, and withers and dies. This leads to large grass fires which wipe out habitat for a number of other species. Nature is not some "always in balance" thing. It is a series of disasters and corrections. Much like the world economy. I'm not advocating that we not look for ways to better provide our material wants, without impacting the earth as much as we do. I'm just saying that sitting around singing kumbaya while we count out equal stacks of money for everyone in the group is not any more in tune with nature than what is happening currently.

Nature, not just a single organisms role in nature, is always in a balance. Its an oscillating one but it is in balance. I think you are misundertanding some key ecological principles.
 

wizards8507

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Its not idealistic. It is reality. It only seems idealistic from the skewed vantage point of a dogmatic economic philosophy that is deeply ingrained in our modern society. Its perpetuated by us which is a positive feed back loop. Its why we will damage this place to the point of no return. We are smart. We can figure out a way to do things that involves sharing of resources in a manner that is sustainable sans the profit motive.
I'm not talking about economic philosophy, I'm talking about human nature. I'm talking about, when you get right down to it, no human person is going to do shit about shit unless there's something in it for him.
 

ACamp1900

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Nature, not just a single organisms role in nature, is always in a balance. Its an oscillating one but it is in balance. I think you are misundertanding some key ecological principles.

homoeostasis is for pussies
 

RDU Irish

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OK, I bit on the Bernie Sanders 6 "loopholes"

Half are essentially global corporation standards that "closing" would essentially drive tons of businesses overseas. WTF do you honestly think will happen if any company based in the US has to pay US tax on profits no matter where they are earned? This is suicidal and beyond ignorant.

Carried interest the only legit beef. It's their line of work, they are not submitting capital at risk so they should not be taxed at capital gains rates. Anyone with disproportional interest in an investment due to their management an investment should be recognizing INCOME not capital gains.

All said and done they are patting themselves on the back for raising $100 billion over 10 years. That is $10 billion a year folks, BFD. Only highlights how the corporate tax is 1/10th of collected revenue with FICA and income tax making up the other 90%. Cutting corporate tax to 0% would result in increased FICA and income tax such that overall growth would take off. Socialists demonizing evil corporations don't appreciate how that means more, better jobs for everyone.
 
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Cackalacky

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I'm not talking about economic philosophy, I'm talking about human nature. I'm talking about, when you get right down to it, no human person is going to do shit about shit unless there's something in it for him.

This is just blatantly not true.
 

kmoose

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Nature, not just a single organisms role in nature, is always in a balance. Its an oscillating one but it is in balance. I think you are misundertanding some key ecological principles.

You realize that "oscillating" means out of balance? It is constantly correcting itself, that is true. But it is not "always in balance", unless you are using an incredibly broad definition of balance.
 
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Cackalacky

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You realize that "oscillating" means out of balance? It is constantly correcting itself, that is true. But it is not "always in balance", unless you are using an incredibly broad definition of balance.

No. Oscillating does not mean "out of balance." It means a periodic behavior within specific limits about an equilibrium point.

The Balance of Nature is a periodic behavior that oscillates creating a dynamic equilibrium. Th equilibrium is based on the system and all its aspects reacting to each other keeping the system within the limits and withing stable conditions.

The system becomes "out of balance" or oscillates too much if a limit state is exceeded causing other aspects of the system to have to respond. Man is doing this right now on a global scale.
 

FightingIrishLover7

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I did that. Not just a four year university, but a four year ELITE university. I graduated from the University of Notre Dame with $25,000 in debt and paid it off in one year. Again, it wasn't that hard. If I had gone to a state school, I would have graduated debt free.


Those are still stupid examples, because it presupposes that the only path to success is the extremely risky path of a startup. You can be successful without taking anywhere near that kind of risk, meaning your chances of reaching your destination are exponentially higher.


Individuals voluntarily work for corporations. If they don't like it, they can quit. Start their own business. Farm. Prostitute themselves. Whatever. A voluntary pawn is not a pawn.


"Ecologists and anthropologists" referred to professional academics, not folks like yourself. FWIW, I hold academic economists in the same low regard.
http://news.nd.edu/news/55795-tuition-and-fees-to-increase-3-7-percent-for-2015-16/

Based on the source above, the average cost of attendance (tuition, cost of living expenses, etc) at Notre Dame is 61k per year. This means you spent (around) 244k over 4 years. You say you were only 25k in debt. This means you made (around) 219k over a four year stretch, while attending college full time.

I'm definitely not doubting you, but I'm curious to hear what you did to make that money. If that's too infringing of a question, I understand. I'm just always curious to hear more about these type of success stories.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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"That's my discretionary income."

Such a cliche "hard working" American response.

The billionaire class wants you to believe that you should be responsible for yourself. The Republicans create this idea that "you should protect yourself...". In reality, there are people in this country that need help. With capitalism, you will have winners and you will have losers. The losers, can (much more difficultly) crawl their way out on occasion, but the deck is so so so stacked against them.

I believe in creating an equal deck of cards for all socioeconomic situations (I know that's unrealistic so I'll settle for a "more closely balanced" deck).

I would gladly chip in a 50% income tax, if I was investing into a government that helps the people, not corporations. I am a happy person, I don't not need to spoil myself. I do not need nor want to horde money for myself, while I see others sleeping on the streets.

More importantly, I want everyone to have free education. Who are we to put a "price" on an education? I know people that aren't going to college because their parents don't have the money and are fearful of the debt they would be in, if they went that route. How are we, as a "great country", pricing people out of a higher education? Education should be a right, at all levels. If a person wants to learn, they should absolutely be able to learn. We need more educated people in this country, and this world.

Right now, our education system is at the mercy of capitalism. The market is continuing to titrate itself, until it finds the cost/benefit threshold. People are still attending college (via loans), because they view the benefit greater than the cost. So, the cost will only continue to go up until the benefits are no longer worth it.

That, is how our colleges and universities are being ran. Are you serious? We price out education like it is a ticket on the Titanic.

You can continue to be scared and horde your "discretionary income," why I continue to fight for a change in this country, in which children that are born into difficult situations / environments have the same percent chance of exceeding and being happy in this country.

Please tell me you're a starry eyed, 19 year old college freshman. If so, understandable and I'll move on. If not, it's sad that you want to play the victim card and think putting all this power in the hands of a small group of politicians in DC will "balance everything out" and "give everyone a fair chance."
 

tussin

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Tuition and fees to increase 3.7 percent for 2015-16 // News // Notre Dame News // University of Notre Dame

Based on the source above, the average cost of attendance (tuition, cost of living expenses, etc) at Notre Dame is 61k per year. This means you spent (around) 244k over 4 years. You say you were only 25k in debt. This means you made (around) 219k over a four year stretch, while attending college full time.

I'm definitely not doubting you, but I'm curious to hear what you did to make that money. If that's too infringing of a question, I understand. I'm just always curious to hear more about these type of success stories.

I too know nothing about Wiz's financial situation, but you aren't factoring scholarships or financial aid.
 

connor_in

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Just...wow


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Something tells me folks are excited about Hillary in Texas. <a href="https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton">@HillaryClinton</a> <a href="http://t.co/jp0Uc2cns5">pic.twitter.com/jp0Uc2cns5</a></p>— Amanda Renteria (@AmandaRenteria) <a href="https://twitter.com/AmandaRenteria/status/654683439342313474">October 15, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

FightingIrishLover7

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I too know nothing about Wiz's financial situation, but you aren't factoring scholarships or financial aid.

I was basing my inference off of this.

I started working the day I turned 16 without a dime from my parents or anybody else. I graduated college with zero cash and $25,000 in debt. But I studied something useful, paid attention in class, and prepared for job interviews. Four years later I have a wife, a baby, a house, two cars, zero debt, a top-30% income, and a growing nest egg. And you know what? It wasn't that hard.



He never mentioned any financial aid information in his original post. In fact, he said "without a dime from my parents or anybody else." I suppose he could have skipped over financial aid, which is misleading, because he would be accepting money from "someone else". His post led me to believe that he made 200k+ in a 6 year time frame from ages 16 to 22 (assuming that's when he attended school).
 

phgreek

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Just...wow


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Something tells me folks are excited about Hillary in Texas. <a href="https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton">@HillaryClinton</a> <a href="http://t.co/jp0Uc2cns5">pic.twitter.com/jp0Uc2cns5</a></p>— Amanda Renteria (@AmandaRenteria) <a href="https://twitter.com/AmandaRenteria/status/654683439342313474">October 15, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That is Hillaryious...

Those Clinton people are just so fun...
 
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Cackalacky

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Apparently CNN is in full editing mode and have been shutting down any web sites.that have or are broadcasting the live version of the debate so they can show a heavily edited version with HRC as the "winner". It was a public feed initially but since Bernie showed up and all the public polls show him as the winner, CNN has claimed the feed was private and anyone showing the unedited live version has to cease showing it. They have gone full on against any youtube channel associated with Bernie.

This is really f'ed up.
 
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Cackalacky

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Ben Carson's Scientific Ignorance - The New Yorker
Lawrence Krause lays it all out.

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News Desk
NEWS DESK

SEPTEMBER 28, 2015
Ben Carson’s Scientific Ignorance
BY LAWRENCE M. KRAUSS

Despite his impressive academic credentials, Ben Carson has demonstrated a failure to grasp basic scientific principles.
Despite his impressive academic credentials, Ben Carson has demonstrated a failure to grasp basic scientific principles.
CREDIT PHOTOGRAPH BY BILL PUGLIANO / GETTY
For a man with an impressive educational C.V., Ben Carson makes a lot of intellectual missteps. In his September 16th debate performance, he displayed a profound lack of foreign-policy knowledge; last Sunday, when he said, on “Meet the Press,” that he “would not advocate that we put a Muslim in charge of this nation,” he may have seriously crippled his campaign. Still, there’s one area in which Carson’s credentials have seemed unimpeachable. Many people assume that, as a successful surgeon, he has a solid knowledge of technical, medical, and scientific issues.

With the wide release of video from a speech that Carson made to his fellow Seventh-Day Adventists in 2012, however, it’s becoming clear that there are significant gaps. In the speech, he made statements on subjects ranging from evolution to the Big Bang that suggest he never learned or chooses to ignore basic, well-tested scientific concepts. In attempting to refute the Big Bang, for example—which he characterized as a “ridiculous” idea—Carson said:

You have all these highfalutin scientists, and they’re saying that there was this gigantic explosion and everything came into perfect order. Now, these are the same scientists who go around touting the second law of thermodynamics, which is entropy, which says that things move toward a state of disorganization. So, now you’re going to have this big explosion, and everything becomes perfectly organized. When you ask them about it, they say, “Well we can explain this based on probability theory, because if there’s enough big explosions, over a long enough period of time, billions and billions of years, one of them will be the perfect explosion”…. What you’re telling me is, if I blow a hurricane through a junkyard enough times, over billions and billions of years, eventually, after one of those hurricanes, there will be a 747 fully loaded and ready to fly.

He continued, “It’s even more ridiculous than that, because our solar system, not to mention the universe outside of that, is extraordinarily well organized, to the point where we can predict seventy years away when a comet is coming. Now, [for] that type of organization to just come out of an explosion? I mean, you want to talk about fairy tales, that is amazing.” Finally, he argued that the observed motion of the planets in our solar system would be impossible if there had been a Big Bang.

It is hard to find a single detailed claim in his diatribe that is physically sensible or that reflects accurate knowledge about science. His central claim—that the second law of thermodynamics rules out order forming in the universe after the Big Bang—is a frequent misstatement made by creationists who want to appear scientifically literate. In reality, it is completely false. Local order in parts of the universe is always possible at the expense of heat and disorder dissipated to the external environment. The human body is one example: we take in energy from our environment to build up complex molecules that help power our bodies, and, in doing so, we release heat to the world around us. A snowflake is another beautifully ordered example of what simple natural meteorological processes can produce. Stars form by gravity, collapsing into spherically ordered structures that can remain in this form only if they release tremendous heat energy into the environment. Carson elides these physical realities by creating a straw man: he says that scientists believe that, after the Big Bang, the universe was “perfectly ordered.” But no such claim has been made by scientists; instead, we describe how local order, including galaxies, stars, planets, and life, developed over time.

When Carson says that scientists rely on “probability theory” to explain how multiple Big Bangs, taking place over “billions of years,” have resulted in our “perfectly ordered” universe, he’s profoundly misstating the theory of the Big Bang. (In fact, he seems to have gotten his ignorant arguments confused—his metaphor about a hurricane creating a 747 in a junkyard is often used to deride evolution, to which it is equally inapplicable.) No one suggests that other Big Bangs have happened or are happening in our universe. Instead, all evidence implies that our universe originated from a single Big Bang approximately 13.7 billion years ago. Perhaps Carson was referring to the possibility of other universes outside of our universe, and to the so-called anthropic principle, which suggests that, if there are many universes, the fact that our universe supports life could be a probabilistic phenomenon. But those ideas, whether they’re true or not, have nothing to do with the reality of the Big Bang. We conclude the Big Bang happened because every piece of observational evidence we have about the universe is precisely consistent with predictions based on this possibility and none other. Speculations about other possible universes are irrelevant.

Perhaps his silliest statements have to do with our own solar system. Carson claims that our solar system is perfectly ordered—but, in fact, the motion of the planets is chaotic in the long term, and, although we can predict the motion of comets over the seventy-year period he discusses, for longer time horizons, such as millions or billions of years, the complexity of our solar system makes that practically impossible. Even more problematically, he points to the fact that some moons orbit in different directions from their planets and argues that those orbits would be impossible if there had been a Big Bang, because angular momentum would forbid it:

You know, you’ve got this mass bending and then it explodes. In physics, we have something we call “angular momentum,” and it is preserved, so it should be preserved in any orbit of anything that is affected by gravity around a planet, which means everything has to traverse in the same direction. Well, it doesn’t! There are many planets that have satellites and moons that go in opposite directions. So that doesn’t work with angular momentum!

This is akin to saying that, if there really had been a Big Bang billions of years ago, skaters today should be able to spin in only one direction. Local systems can exchange angular momentum with their surroundings by collisions, and many forms of chaotic motion are, therefore, possible. Bathwater rotates around the drain, sometimes clockwise and sometimes counterclockwise, happily independent of the Big Bang. The questions that Carson goes on to ask about the “debris” from the Big Bang—“What about all the debris from the billions and billions of explosions that were not perfect? Where’s that? I mean, we should be bombarded constantly by all this debris coming down; we’re not seeing it”—are meaningless if our entire visible universe arose from a single Big Bang, which is what the evidence suggests.

Carson’s wild delusions aren’t confined to physics, either. In the same event, in a more surprising and perhaps more worrisome statement, Carson claimed that evolution, as explained by Darwin, was actually the work of the devil. (“I personally believe that this theory that Darwin came up with was something that was encouraged by the adversary, and it has become what is scientifically, politically correct.”) As if invoking Satan weren’t bad enough, Carson resorted to bad puns to sidestep his scientific ignorance: he went on to say that he was planning a book called “The Organ of Species,” which he said would “talk about the organs of the body and how they completely refute evolution”—an amazing claim that would require a rewriting of most biology texts. At another point in the speech, he uses a long stream of medical terminology to argue against the biochemical origins of life—something he doesn’t seem to realize has nothing to do with Darwinian evolution itself. Elsewhere, he claims that plants couldn’t have evolved before bees and that sexual reproduction shouldn’t have evolved at all, and suggests that geological formations provide evidence of a great flood, not an old Earth.

It is one thing to simply assert that you don’t choose to believe the science, in spite of a mountain of data supporting it. It’s another to mask your ignorance in such a disingenuous way, by using pseudo-scientific, emotion-laden arguments and trading on your professional credentials. Surely this quality, which reflects either self-delusion or, worse still, a willingness to intentionally deceive others, is of great concern when someone is vying for control of the nuclear red button.

Last week, when he was confronted, during a speech at Cedarville University, about his failure to understand basic and fundamental scientific concepts, Carson responded, “I’m not going to denigrate you because of your faith, and you shouldn’t denigrate me for mine.” What Carson doesn’t seem to recognize is that there is a fundamental difference between facts and faith. An inability to separate religious beliefs from an assessment of physical reality runs counter to the very basis of our society—the separation of church and state.

By his own admission, Carson’s remarkable hand-eye coördination allowed him to soar as a surgeon, and he used that success to build a lucrative reputation as a purveyor of advice for young and old. His book for young people is titled “You Have a Brain.” As numerous religious scientists have quipped, God wouldn’t have given us a brain if he hadn’t intended for us to use it. While many may debate whether his lack of public-service experience disqualifies him from serious consideration in this race, Carson’s ideas about religion, science, and public office, as revealed in the past week, suggest that there are far deeper reasons to be concerned about his candidacy for the highest office in the land.
 

FightingIrishLover7

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Apparently CNN is in full editing mode and have been shutting down any web sites.that have or are broadcasting the live version of the debate so they can show a heavily edited version with HRC as the "winner". It was a public feed initially but since Bernie showed up and all the public polls show him as the winner, CNN has claimed the feed was private and anyone showing the unedited live version has to cease showing it. They have gone full on against any youtube channel associated with Bernie.

This is really f'ed up.
Can I get a source (believe me, I know how this works. I trust you. I mean Time Warner Cable is Hillary's 7th largest donor after all. I just want a link that I can share with friends)?

I hope everyone on here regardless of where they stand, can agree that our media is fucking broken.

Most intelligent people will realize that the news companies spin and highlight their personal agendas, but a significant portion of our country doesn't research topics on their own and some only listen to one corrupt news organization.

These people are falling victim to the agendas of the news outlets, and this needs to be brought up more. We need informed voters, not CNN, msnbc, Fox news voters.

I don't know how you can teach the entire country to think for themselves, but we can certainly try and regulate news organizations in order to prevent their biases and fucking censorship.
 

NCDomer

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I was basing my inference off of this.





He never mentioned any financial aid information in his original post. In fact, he said "without a dime from my parents or anybody else." I suppose he could have skipped over financial aid, which is misleading, because he would be accepting money from "someone else". His post led me to believe that he made 200k+ in a 6 year time frame from ages 16 to 22 (assuming that's when he attended school).

That's only ~$35k per year. Definitely doable if he's an IT type. You can make some decent money without any real effort on your part just running diagnostic cybersecurity tests for companies. Typically, it's more about garnering enough business. With that said, ~$35k isn't exactly easy for a high school kid and undergrad who has to spend most of his time in class.
 

NCDomer

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Apparently CNN is in full editing mode and have been shutting down any web sites.that have or are broadcasting the live version of the debate so they can show a heavily edited version with HRC as the "winner". It was a public feed initially but since Bernie showed up and all the public polls show him as the winner, CNN has claimed the feed was private and anyone showing the unedited live version has to cease showing it. They have gone full on against any youtube channel associated with Bernie.

This is really f'ed up.

Agreed it's FU.

I watched the debate. I thought HC and Bernie more or less just solidified their positions as the clear-cut frontrunners. HC probably benefitted more because her performance probably did enough to quell the establishment types that they need Biden to run.

The next day, I saw the online polls and all of the ones I saw had Bernie winning. However, almost all of the media reports said HC won by a landslide and was essentially perfect. Most had a boom/bust mentality for everyone. Overly dramatic poor reporting that seems far too typical these days.
 

phgreek

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Can I get a source (believe me, I know how this works. I trust you. I mean Time Warner Cable is Hillary's 7th largest donor after all. I just want a link that I can share with friends)?

I hope everyone on here regardless of where they stand, can agree that our media is fucking broken.

Most intelligent people will realize that the news companies spin and highlight their personal agendas, but a significant portion of our country doesn't research topics on their own and some only listen to one corrupt news organization.

These people are falling victim to the agendas of the news outlets, and this needs to be brought up more. We need informed voters, not CNN, msnbc, Fox news voters.

I don't know how you can teach the entire country to think for themselves, but we can certainly try and regulate news organizations in order to prevent their biases and fucking censorship.

Agree with most of this...not the bolded.
 

FightingIrishLover7

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That's only ~$35k per year. Definitely doable if he's an IT type. You can make some decent money without any real effort on your part just running diagnostic cybersecurity tests for companies. Typically, it's more about garnering enough business. With that said, ~$35k isn't exactly easy for a high school kid and undergrad who has to spend most of his time in class.
That's exactly what I'm saying, I know it's possible. But it's super hard to work that much, plus excel in school.

While I was an undergrad at Purdue, I was working about 15 to sometimes (not during exam weeks) 20 hours a week and that put me to the point of mental and physical exhaustion. Luckily my job was through purdue, so I could ask off for academic reasons (projects, papers, exams, etc).

All I know is, the percentage of students that are attending a 4 year university while earning 35k a year, has to be very small.
 
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Cackalacky

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I believe other states and schools may do this but we have co-op programs here. Students in cop-ops alternate school and work semesters so the student can graduate with a degree and possibly a job opportunity. The jobs did not necessarily follow if the program was large but it did give job experience walking out the door.
 
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