Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[anarin]

Are we really going to let this one slip by? lol

Not even including the ALL GALAXY pro career he had... In one year (1997) at Marshall, he put up the following #s:

96 receptions for over 1800 yards and 26 TDs

Love Fuller, but Fuller ain't no Moss (which you admittedly stated), but why wouldn't you want Moss over that? Because he's not a Notre Dame Man?

Yeah... I let it slip. I figured he had to be drunk or something

 

[woolybug25]

Could you give us an example or two of who you mean, with this?

A better athlete isn't always a better choice at a position. Will Fuller is less talented than Randy Moss was... but I would take Fuller over Moss every day. Tarean Folston is less talented than Lawrence Phillips was... but I would take Foltson over Phillips, and it isn't even close.

 

[Luckylucci]

Are we really going to let this one slip by? lol

Not even including the ALL GALAXY pro career he had... In one year (1997) at Marshall, he put up the following #s:

96 receptions for over 1800 yards and 26 TDs

Love Fuller, but Fuller ain't no Moss (which you admittedly stated), but why wouldn't you want Moss over that? Because he's not a Notre Dame Man?

Haha, no kidding. Fuller still has trouble catching away from his body unless its a basket catch.

 

[gkIrish]

I accept that ND cannot win 10 games every year because of the academic focus and the fact that we employ suicide by schedule. This is inclusive of injuries because yes they happen, but you also have to have the depth there to take care of business. But here's what I want from a ND coach (not saying who I want):

Over a 4 year span, I expect to two have 8/9 win seasons, but never below. **** happens, so we're not winning 10 games a year, but at least not embarrassing ourselves with 7 shouldn't happen.

We make the playoffs at least 1 year out of 4. At that point, everything is a crap shoot so demanding to win it, or even to make the championship game is further than I'd go.

A 10 win year.

If BK wins 10 this year, he's not too far off of what I expect as a ND fan given our current state.

I more or less agree with this but I don't think 8 wins is acceptable. I expect playoffs once every 3 years. I expect top 20 finishes 4 out of 5 seasons and top 10 3 out of 5. Basically, from year 3 on ND's coach should have 1 seasons where 8 wins is okay but the rest should average about 10.

Something like this in the regular seasons would be cool with me:

YR3 8
YR4 9-10
YR5 10-11
YR6 11-12
YR7 9-10
YR8 9-10

Sorry edited that a bunch.

 

[Luckylucci]

FWIW, Bob Stoops has only had 3 years where he didn't win 10 games since 2000. Those years he won 8.

Coincidentally, this is not a program with a bunch of top 5 recruiting finishes. In fact, they haven't had a top 10 finish since 2010 (4th). They have other benefits but they don't recruit a bunch of 5 stars every year.

 

[koonja]

I think if we're talking Stoops, you have to compare like the 4 weakest games on the schedule, because I think that's going to cost a team like ND one game, which is a huge deal. Ex, averaging 10 wins a year vs averaging 9 wins a year is a big difference when looking at coaching.

On a given year, our 4 weakest games would be something like:

Temple
Wake Forest
Navy
North Carolina.

I'm guessing Oklahoma's 4 weakest are complete gimme's, and that's going to add 1 extra L to whoever's coaching at ND IMO.

 

[woolybug25]

I think if we're talking Stoops, you have to compare like the 4 weakest games on the schedule, because I think that's going to cost a team like ND one game, which is a huge deal. Ex, averaging 10 wins a year vs averaging 9 wins a year is a big difference when looking at coaching.

On a given year, our 4 weakest games would be something like:

Temple
Wake Forest
Navy
North Carolina.

I'm guessing Oklahoma's 4 weakest are complete gimme's, and that's going to add 1 extra L to whoever's coaching at ND IMO.

According to Sagarin, OU's schedule is better than ours this year.

College Football Ratings Page

 

[gkIrish]

According to Sagarin, OU's schedule is better than ours this year.

College Football Ratings Page

Yeah Oklahoma is one of the few teams that schedules at least one challenging home and home. I doubt they play many FCS teams either. Probably a lot of the Rice's and Tulsas of the world.

 

[woolybug25]

Yeah Oklahoma is one of the few teams that schedules at least one challenging home and home. I doubt they play many FCS teams either. Probably a lot of the Rice's and Tulsas of the world.

Since UT was ranked when they played them last week, I would argue that OU will play more ranked teams (4: UT, Baylor, TCU & OKst), more Top 10 teams (TCU/Baylor) and less non-P5 teams (Akron/Tulsa) than Notre Dame.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

Yeah Oklahoma is one of the few teams that schedules at least one challenging home and home. I doubt they play many FCS teams either. Probably a lot of the Rice's and Tulsas of the world.

Ohio State really does schedule good home and homes IMO, as much as I hate them. They had Texas and USC recently, and VT was still a very good program when the ink was wet on that one.

 

[Butchie]

I hate that we lost MZ the way we did, I really do. I was never in his corner, however. I was pulling for EG all along. Now that, that Bitch is gone and MZ went down, I saw something in Kizer that really impressed me. The 2-point conversion and his press conference after. He had the confidence of the world during both. This kid is the real deal. I seriously have no worries here. Mark this post and let's revisit it in 5 weeks.

Meet Nd's 3-Headed Monster: Fuller-Prosise-Kizer

The D
More than it looked schematically wrong it looked lazy. While one can say you can't blame coaches for kids being lazy, I think you have to blame coaches for kids being lazy. People need to start getting pulled and we can start in the secondary. The secondary looks LAZY! I'd run these kids on the ski hill till they puked. I am seriously starting to hate Redfield. Eff his athleticism. Eff his up side. Eff him. He's a head case.
Someone said 38 looks a step behind. Yeah SLOW. I thought Morgan (5) was going to benefit from the 4-5 games he was able to start in last year. How the hell did he get buried 3 deep.

I'd run with three deep covering 1/3's all day. I watched the ACC champ. game last night this kid cannot throw. They didn't even attempt a pass until the 2nd quarter. Seriously - Take your 3 - 4 best cover guys and tell them your in man for the next 3 hrs 2013 Michigan State style and let's see if they can beat us with his arm. NO WAY!
GO IRISH!

 

[phillyirish]

I hate that we lost MZ the way we did, I really do. I was never in his corner, however. I was pulling for EG all along. Now that, that Bitch is gone and MZ went down, I saw something in Kizer that really impressed me. The 2-point conversion and his press conference after. He had the confidence of the world during both. This kid is the real deal. I seriously have no worries here. Mark this post and let's revisit it in 5 weeks.

Meet Nd's 3-Headed Monster: Fuller-Prosise-Kizer

The D
More than it looked schematically wrong it looked lazy. While one can say you can't blame coaches for kids being lazy, I think you have to blame coaches for kids being lazy. People need to start getting pulled and we can start in the secondary. The secondary looks LAZY! I'd run these kids on the ski hill till they puked. I am seriously starting to hate Redfield. Eff his athleticism. Eff his up side. Eff him. He's a head case.
Someone said 38 looks a step behind. Yeah SLOW. I thought Morgan (5) was going to benefit from the 4-5 games he was able to start in last year. How the hell did he get buried 3 deep.

I'd run with three deep covering 1/3's all day. I watched the ACC champ. game last night this kid cannot throw. They didn't even attempt a pass until the 2nd quarter. Seriously - Take your 3 - 4 best cover guys and tell them your in man for the next 3 hrs 2013 Michigan State style and let's see if they can beat us with his arm. NO WAY!
GO IRISH!

You treat Golson leaving way too personally, like your girlfriend dumbed you or something. Seriously attacking him personally calling him a bitch and it's not even the first time, I remember you calling him a coward before for "stealing reps" in the spring. I don't know if you drunk or what but you post some dumb 3rd grade bullshit

 

[JughedJones]

EG is a Notre Dame graduate.

I would have loved if he stayed but he fulfilled his commitment to the University.

How many degrees do you have from ND?

The way you personally attack students makes me wonder why you're a fan of this particular school.

 

[Rocket89]

We are debating whether Brian Kelly is the right person to lead this program.

IMO, the right person to lead this program is someone who can make our resume competitive with Alabama's in the next five years. So if you don't want to compare to Alabama, that's on you. Just means you don't want or to expect to ever win a championship. Completely fine, but also completely pointless to debate with you.

If you want me to concede that it's not actually 6-7 times a season but it's actually 4-5 then sure. Doesn't change what I'm talking about. Don't ignore the actual point of this thread.

Actually, a lot of this thread has felt like you trying to convince everyone else that you're a better fan because you hold Notre Dame to higher standards.

Let's just say everyone else wakes up today and beats their chest like this too. What changes about Notre Dame's situation? Other than you and a few others can't mask emoting threads like this as an attempt to show you're the high standard police?

This is an incredibly difficult situation for Notre Dame and it's a very difficult job. Saying "Hey guys I'm just looking for a half decade run like Alabama what's wrong doesn't everyone want that?" really isn't saying anything at all besides the fact that you appear like an irrational fan.

That's what I don't get. As if ND is just surveying the landscape and there are several gimme options that could lead us to an absurd run that hasn't been seen at ND since Leahy was here. Again, if you had your way and made others believe "we all want championships like Alabama" what changes for Notre Dame? How does that undo the fact that finding someone to win even one title at ND is going to be insanely difficult?

 

[wizards8507]

Actually, a lot of this thread has felt like you trying to convince everyone else that you're a better fan because you hold Notre Dame to higher standards.

Let's just say everyone else wakes up today and beats their chest like this too. What changes about Notre Dame's situation? Other than you and a few others can't mask emoting threads like this as an attempt to show you're the high standard police?

This is an incredibly difficult situation for Notre Dame and it's a very difficult job. Saying "Hey guys I'm just looking for a half decade run like Alabama what's wrong doesn't everyone want that?" really isn't saying anything at all besides the fact that you appear like an irrational fan.

That's what I don't get. As if ND is just surveying the landscape and there are several gimme options that could lead us to an absurd run that hasn't been seen at ND since Leahy was here. Again, if you had your way and made others believe "we all want championships like Alabama" what changes for Notre Dame? How does that undo the fact that finding someone to win even one title at ND is going to be insanely difficult?

There's a ton of room between "winning a title" and "8-5 every year." If we were finishing 10-3 with a Fiesta Bowl or Sugar Bowl win every other year, this would be a different conversation or, more likely, no conversation at all. I agree that Alabama is an unrealistic standard, but I also think that EVER losing to Northwestern at home is unacceptable.

 

[gkIrish]

Actually, a lot of this thread has felt like you trying to convince everyone else that you're a better fan because you hold Notre Dame to higher standards.

Let's just say everyone else wakes up today and beats their chest like this too. What changes about Notre Dame's situation? Other than you and a few others can't mask emoting threads like this as an attempt to show you're the high standard police?

This is an incredibly difficult situation for Notre Dame and it's a very difficult job. Saying "Hey guys I'm just looking for a half decade run like Alabama what's wrong doesn't everyone want that?" really isn't saying anything at all besides the fact that you appear like an irrational fan.

That's what I don't get. As if ND is just surveying the landscape and there are several gimme options that could lead us to an absurd run that hasn't been seen at ND since Leahy was here. Again, if you had your way and made others believe "we all want championships like Alabama" what changes for Notre Dame? How does that undo the fact that finding someone to win even one title at ND is going to be insanely difficult?

You're accusing me of ulterior motives? Interesting...

I understand that it's unlikely we will never have a 5 year run like Alabama but it's doesn't mean we shouldn't try. If you KNOW your current coach at Notre Dame will never be able to approach an average of 10 wins per season then it's time to move on. I'm asking for our program to put together a run like Michigan St. just did. Clearly their success was largely due to their head coach. You can't say they didn't beat great teams. There's no reason we can't be as successful as MSU.

Most fans don't take criticism of the program very well so I understand you taking this stance. Wouldn't want to lose any clicks.

 

[Rocket89]

You're accusing me of ulterior motives? Interesting...

I understand that it's unlikely we will never have a 5 year run like Alabama but it's doesn't mean we shouldn't try. If you KNOW your current coach at Notre Dame will never be able to approach an average of 10 wins per season then it's time to move on. I'm asking for our program to put together a run like Michigan St. just did. Clearly their success was largely due to their head coach. You can't say they didn't beat great teams. There's no reason we can't be as successful as MSU.

Most fans don't take criticism of the program very well so I understand you taking this stance. Wouldn't want to lose any clicks.

I'm not accusing you of ulterior motives, only putting emotion at the head of an incredibly complicated and difficult discussion.

Once you realize that--and stop acting like other people don't want to agree with your emotional criticism of the program and therefore they don't want the Irish to do better--the better these discussions will be.

 

[MNIrishman]

You're accusing me of ulterior motives? Interesting...

I understand that it's unlikely we will never have a 5 year run like Alabama but it's doesn't mean we shouldn't try. If you KNOW your current coach at Notre Dame will never be able to approach an average of 10 wins per season then it's time to move on. I'm asking for our program to put together a run like Michigan St. just did. Clearly their success was largely due to their head coach. You can't say they didn't beat great teams. There's no reason we can't be as successful as MSU.

Most fans don't take criticism of the program very well so I understand you taking this stance. Wouldn't want to lose any clicks.

MSU has had four seasons under Dantonio with at least four losses (5,4,5, and 6 losses, respectively).

 

[kmoose]

There's no reason we can't be as successful as MSU...

MSU's winning pct under Dantonio: .70755
ND's winning pct under Kelly: .69231

ND has not been that far off, actually. They're behind, yes; but not as far as our emotions would suggest.

 

[Irish Insanity]

MSU's winning pct under Dantonio: .70755
ND's winning pct under Kelly: .69231

ND has not been that far off, actually. They're behind, yes; but not as far as our emotions would suggest.

Since MSU became a successful program (10+ win year), they've only had 1 year less than 11 wins. They are/were a much lesser program than us, and year in and year out are much lower in the recruiting rankings. Dantonio probably does more with less than any other coach. Imagine what he could do if his average incoming player ranking was an entire star higher.

BK over the last 5 years averaged 8.2 wins.
Dantonio over the last 5 years averaged 10.6 wins.

MSU has been far superior to us as a program since BK became coach. And it's not even close.

 

[gkIrish]

MSU's winning pct under Dantonio: .70755
ND's winning pct under Kelly: .69231

ND has not been that far off, actually. They're behind, yes; but not as far as our emotions would suggest.

Are you being purposely obtuse? D'Antonio's first 3 seasons, when he didn't have his own players, clearly weigh down that average. You take away both BK's and D'Antonio's first 3 seasons and the average isn't remotely close. Michigan St. has been so much better in the time that BK was at ND it's not even arguable. One bad season and 4 elite seasons. Kelly has had 2 bad seasons, 2 mediocre, and 1 elite

11, 10, 6, 11 (+Big Ten Champ game), 10

MSU has had four seasons under Dantonio with at least four losses (5,4,5, and 6 losses, respectively).

So as many as BK has but in 3 more seasons? Thank you for making my argument.

 

[MNIrishman]

Since MSU became a successful program (10+ win year), they've only had 1 year less than 11 wins. They are/were a much lesser program than us, and year in and year out are much lower in the recruiting rankings. Dantonio probably does more with less than any other coach. Imagine what he could do if his average incoming player ranking was an entire star higher.

BK over the last 5 years averaged 8.2 wins.
Dantonio over the last 5 years averaged 10.6 wins.

MSU has been far superior to us as a program since BK became coach. And it's not even close.

BK first 5 years averaged 9 wins.
Dantonio first five years averaged 8.9 wins.

Or would you like to go on comparing an established program to BK's rebuilding period?

 

[kmoose]

Imagine what he could do if his average incoming player ranking was an entire star higher.

The same as Dan Hawkins at Colorado?

 

[gkIrish]

BK first 5 years averaged 9 wins.
Dantonio first five years averaged 8.9 wins.

Or would you like to go on comparing an established program to BK's rebuilding period?

Like I said, just compare years 4 and 5 then.

11 wins and 10 wins for D'Antonio compared to 8 and 7 for BK.

 

[Irish Insanity]

BK first 5 years averaged 9 wins.
Dantonio first five years averaged 8.9 wins.

Or would you like to go on comparing an established program to BK's rebuilding period?

Their averages year 4 and after (their players):

BK: 9 and 8. 8.5 average.
Dantonia: 11, 11, 7, 13, 11. Average 10.6 average.

With both of their own players. MSU averaging probably 1 star per player less in recruiting. It took Dantonio 4 years to get MSU to a powerhouse. He's had 1 down year since. It took BK only 3, he hasn't broken 9 wins since.

And I'm not sure what rebuilding period you're talking about. BK came in with a much better roster than Dantonio. And it's not even close.

 

[Irish Insanity]

The same as Dan Hawkins at Colorado?

Not even gonna BS, I don't even know who that is. If he's a good coach, maybe he's a a prospect for us to look at in the future. Soon if we continue mediocrity.

 

[stlnd01]

Since MSU became a successful program (10+ win year), they've only had 1 year less than 11 wins. They are/were a much lesser program than us, and year in and year out are much lower in the recruiting rankings. Dantonio probably does more with less than any other coach. Imagine what he could do if his average incoming player ranking was an entire star higher.

BK over the last 5 years averaged 8.2 wins.
Dantonio over the last 5 years averaged 10.6 wins.

MSU has been far superior to us as a program since BK became coach. And it's not even close.

So would you push out Kelly for Dantonio after this season? That's the logical conclusion of this argument. And it's actually achievable. Unlike, say, Nick Saban, Dantonio would probably come to Notre Dame. So do you swap Kelly for him? Yes or no?

 

[kmoose]

Not even gonna BS, I don't even know who that is. If he's a good coach, maybe he's a a prospect for us to look at in the future. Soon if we continue mediocrity.

He is the guy who built Bosie State into what they are today. The same logic was used when Colorado hired him. "Look at the success he had at Boise State. Imagine what he could do with the talent that Colorado gets?" The result: 19-39 in 5 seasons.

 

[gkIrish]

So would you push out Kelly for Dantonio after this season? That's the logical conclusion of this argument. And it's actually achievable. Unlike, say, Nick Saban, Dantonio would probably come to Notre Dame. So do you swap Kelly for him? Yes or no?

I don't know about II but I would cry tears of joy if D'Antonio was our coach. Only problem is he is 6 years older than BK.

 

[connor_in]

Dantonio at MSU
7-5
9-4
6-7
11-2
11-3
6-7
13-1
12-2

Kelly at ND
8-5
8-5
12-1
9-4
8-5

Just to have the stats handy