2016 Presidential Horse Race

[GoIrish41]

2010 and 2012 say hello. Carry on.

Remind me, which national elections did they win those years?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Exactly how many Hispanic terrorists have crossed our border with Mexico and attacked the United States?

I wouldn't label this guy a terrorist, but I'm guessing Kate Steinle's family has illegal immigration at the forefront of their minds.

Aside from that, one could easily argue that some of the tactics carried out by the drug cartels are terroristic.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...lon-san-francisco-laid-rest-article-1.2287802

 

[IrishJayhawk]

It's been a long week with little sleep for me, so I am a little bleary eyed, but it looks to me like there has been an estimated 400,000 illegal immigrants that entered the country between 2010 and 2012. That's 200,000 a year, or 16,666 a month, or 3,846 a week, or 549 a day. Over 500 people a day enter the country illegally!! And you think that's NOT problem?

The idea of sealing off our Southern border(that one in particular, but all of them in the long run) is, mostly, to keep some terrorist from just walking across the border with a WMD of some type. Or to at least make it hard enough that only the most sophisticated groups can accomplish it. That would mean that law enforcement would not be overly burdened by trying to monitor every movement of every group that might have enough funds to purchase something. They could focus their efforts on (though not solely concentrate on) those groups that have the resources to accomplish it.

I highly doubt that the lock on the front door of your home would keep out anyone who was determined to get into your home; but I bet you lock your doors.

Or, put another way, there are 500,000 fewer undocumented immigrants in the country than there were in 2007. It's a net zero for about the last decade.

That said, using your interpretation of the graph (which is accurate within those couple of years), we also know that about 40% (by the best available estimate) of those folks are on visa overstays. Walls are meaningless in those situations.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I'll get on that right after you answer my question from 2 days ago you're still dodging.

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[BleedBlueGold]

The image I see when I think of Trump's Wall:

 

[woolybug25]

None. And no one is really worried about Mexican terrorists. What they are (rightly) worried about is some Iranian Quds force, or some North Korean Spec Ops team, or some ISIS group, contracting with one of the coyote groups to bring someone(s) across.

Why would they go through mexico when it is soooo much easier to get through Canada?




I think the bigger point is what Cack brought up. Our country's infrastructure is crumbling and we are debating building a $100B+ wall across the mexican border? Not only does it not fix the problem (the illegal immigrants are already here), but it may not even work in keeping illegal drugs, weapons, human trafficking, etc outside our borders.

 

[woolybug25]

I'll get on that right after you answer my question from 2 days ago you're still dodging.

[le sigh].... which question is that?

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Why would they go through mexico when it is soooo much easier to get through Canada?




I think the bigger point is what Cack brought up. Our country's infrastructure is crumbling and we are debating building a $100B+ wall across the mexican border? Not only does it not fix the problem (the illegal immigrants are already here), but it may not even work in keeping illegal drugs, weapons, human trafficking, etc outside our borders.

The U.S. should just build a giant biodome around the whole country.

All those dirty, criminal, whore, Mexican immigrants be like:

 

[kmoose]

I think the bigger point is what Cack brought up. Our country's infrastructure is crumbling and we are debating building a $100B+ wall across the mexican border? Not only does it not fix the problem (the illegal immigrants are already here), but it may not even work in keeping illegal drugs, weapons, human trafficking, etc outside our borders.

I agree that aging infrastructure should be a bigger priority. But that doesn't mean that we should just dismiss the idea of making our borders more secure.

 

[RDU Irish]

Building a wall across the southern border? Here's some numbers and other factors to consider.

A standard 6' high steel fence built at prevailing wage rates in Southern California runs about $100 per linear foot.

Negotiating the easements and doing title research on the land parcels would take at least 5-10 years.

Negotiating construction access would take several years.

Construction would take at least a decade

You would not only wall off Mexico but rather large swaths of land that serve as wildlife corridors throughout the various ecosystems found along the Southern Border.

You would also impact the hydrology of untold watersheds and modeling those impacts would take at least 5 years. Then you would possibly have to negotiate with private land owners over that.

You'd probably have to do seismic studies, wind shear studies and modeling for individual sections, geo-tech exploration based on the different soil types...

Then once built it would have to be maintained, repaired and upgraded forever.

So there's a list off the top of my head.

Excellent stuff. On top of the logistics I am not a fan of the imagery.

Who was it that said "Mr. Gorbachev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL" - Might have been a relevant response in the particular location of the debate.

 

[woolybug25]

I agree that aging infrastructure should be a bigger priority. But that doesn't mean that we should just dismiss the idea of making our borders more secure.

I agree with that. I would argue what we do with the current illegals is just as important though.

 

[kmoose]

I agree with that. I would argue what we do with the current illegals is just as important though.

To my way of thinking......... the "secure the borders" debate has moved past being about illegal immigrants. It is now about protecting our homeland, and not just leaving the door wide open for any foreign group to just walk in. I'm not dumb enough to believe that a chain link fence will suddenly mean that no one can get in and do anything, but again, I think it's about not leaving the front door unlocked, thereby practically inviting them in.

 

[RDU Irish]

None. And no one is really worried about Mexican terrorists. What they are (rightly) worried about is some Iranian Quds force, or some North Korean Spec Ops team, or some ISIS group, contracting with one of the coyote groups to bring someone(s) across.

Drug cartels and violent criminals pose a greater threat to the average American than ISIS or Al Queda.

Legalize drugs and you cut off the hand that feeds them while reducing their "recruits" who have few options thanks to being labeled felons early and often in their life. Kind of hard to build a career with a drug felony on your record.

When it comes to our society, I will take the occasional catastrophe affecting one or two cities over every square inch of this country being threatened daily.

 

[Cackalacky]

Building a wall across the southern border? Here's some numbers and other factors to consider.

A standard 6' high steel fence built at prevailing wage rates in Southern California runs about $100 per linear foot.

Negotiating the easements and doing title research on the land parcels would take at least 5-10 years.

Negotiating construction access would take several years.

Construction would take at least a decade

You would not only wall off Mexico but rather large swaths of land that serve as wildlife corridors throughout the various ecosystems found along the Southern Border.

You would also impact the hydrology of untold watersheds and modeling those impacts would take at least 5 years. Then you would possibly have to negotiate with private land owners over that.

You'd probably have to do seismic studies, wind shear studies and modeling for individual sections, geo-tech exploration based on the different soil types...

Then once built it would have to be maintained, repaired and upgraded forever.

So there's a list off the top of my head.

I missed this post. All correct. Reps. A wall is a BAD IDEA.

 

[kmoose]

Drug cartels and violent criminals pose a greater threat to the average American than ISIS or Al Queda.

Legalize drugs and you cut off the hand that feeds them while reducing their "recruits" who have few options thanks to being labeled felons early and often in their life. Kind of hard to build a career with a drug felony on your record.

When it comes to our society, I will take the occasional catastrophe affecting one or two cities over every square inch of this country being threatened daily.

So you would rather have a nuke completely obliterate Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Dallas, or Atlanta, than to see meth remain illegal? Got it.

 

[IrishLax]

Exactly how many Hispanic terrorists have crossed our border with Mexico and attacked the United States?

At least when I was on when I was on the border, the main security focus was what they called OTMs (Other Than Mexicans) and make sure they couldn't easily get across the border. Letting terrorists/spies into the country through an unsecured border is a legitimate concern and recognized as such by CBP/DHS.

I should also note that this applies to the Canadian border and the coasts too. I once did a project in Vermont... they weren't worried about Mexicans or Canadians, but they were worried that this section wasn't secure enough and could be exploited by more nefarious people.

EDIT: I Googled up a link -- The Shocking Number of Illegal Immigrants Not From Mexico That Escaped at the Border Last Year — and Where Some of Them Are From | TheBlaze.com -- which I haven't read, but the title at least seems legit and probably talks about the concern the Government has.

 

[RDU Irish]

I think Tel Aviv glows in the dark before any US City.

I also don't think immigration fights this issue as effectively (cost or results) as good counter intelligence and specialized resources.

The War on Drugs creates the black market trafficking that provides avenues for these things to move here much more so than a wall or lack thereof.

Besides - who is keeping a boat from floating into NYC and blowing it up that way? How hard is it to sail a yacht into any given port and lob your nuke from there? Seems a lot easier than carrying the thing through the desert and then hundreds of miles to any meaningful target.

Absolutely no way you can 100% protect from bad actors. Our sheer size and borders have protected us for centuries and insulated us from harm. Those same vast borders work against us in protecting from terrorists.

Our country sounds like a bunch of helicopter moms afraid to let their kids leave their sight. Guess what, dangerous world out there and you cannot guarantee people are not going to get hurt.

 

[RDU Irish]

How much easier is it to hide in the crowd of 200,000 illegal immigrants and who knows how many drug traffickers going back and forth all the time? Cut that flow and it gets that much easier to spot the nefarious guy with a black hat and handlebar mustache trying to blow up the train track with dynamite.

 

[kmoose]

who is keeping a boat from floating into NYC and blowing it up that way?

The Coast Guard. And they are backed up by radiation monitors at various locations that ships have to pass through/by.

Seems a lot easier than carrying the thing through the desert and then hundreds of miles to any meaningful target.

Drug runners are bringing kilos upon kilos across the border. It wouldn't be a big stretch for someone to pay them an obscene amount of money to carry a few extra packages along with them?

Absolutely no way you can 100% protect from bad actors. Our sheer size and borders have protected us for centuries and insulated us from harm.

I agree. But a couple of things here:

1. Just because a burglar could easily break a window and enter your house, that doesn't mean that you leave your doors unlocked.

2. WMDs make our sheer size less of an advantage for us. Also, unlike most of the past threats we have faced, the modern Muslim terrorist EMBRACES being a martyr. It used to be that terrorists did not want to try to operate in America because our law enforcement was so efficient (compared to other countries) at catching them. They were almost guaranteed to get caught. The modern terrorist not only doesn't worry about being caught because they won't live through the attack, they actually look forward to not making it out alive.

 

[RDU Irish]

The Coast Guard. And they are backed up by radiation monitors at various locations that ships have to pass through/by.




Drug runners are bringing kilos upon kilos across the border. It wouldn't be a big stretch for someone to pay them an obscene amount of money to carry a few extra packages along with them?


I agree. But a couple of things here:

1. Just because a burglar could easily break a window and enter your house, that doesn't mean that you leave your doors unlocked.

2. WMDs make our sheer size less of an advantage for us. Also, unlike most of the past threats we have faced, the modern Muslim terrorist EMBRACES being a martyr. It used to be that terrorists did not want to try to operate in America because our law enforcement was so efficient (compared to other countries) at catching them. They were almost guaranteed to get caught. The modern terrorist not only doesn't worry about being caught because they won't live through the attack, they actually look forward to not making it out alive.

This is why I think legalizing drugs is a matter of national security. They already parlayed this black market distribution network into human trafficking, not a huge stretch for that to take the next step to smuggling more nefarious items/people.

Your points on radiation monitors in the ocean raises the question of why that can't be applied on the land borders. Forget the rest of the busy work and focus on the shit that glows in the dark.

 

[kmoose]

This is why I think legalizing drugs is a matter of national security. They already parlayed this black market distribution network into human trafficking, not a huge stretch for that to take the next step to smuggling more nefarious items/people.

Your points on radiation monitors in the ocean raises the question of why that can't be applied on the land borders. Forget the rest of the busy work and focus on the shit that glows in the dark.

They have them. But there are non-radioactive WMDs as well. Biological and chemical bombs in particular.

 

[RDU Irish]

They have them. But there are non-radioactive WMDs as well. Biological and chemical bombs in particular.

So how is that different than the ocean borders then? Cutting the trafficking down by eliminating financial incentives leaves less opportunity for trafficking for pure evil purposes.

Hate to piss in everyone's Cheerios but being safe and feeling safe are two different animals.

 

[Grahambo]

Went back a few pages to catch up and saw a couple different topics going on. Just gonna throw out my two cents on my experiences:

Military: Its quite simple actually, go to a recruiter, take the ASVAB, they will give you your scores (yes, you get a few different scores), they will then tell you/show you a list that you qualify for, you can either pick a job, let them pick for you, request to take it again, or simply walk away.

My experience: Took the ASVAB beginning of senior year of HS with the NJ National Guard. Scored poorly. Crap jobs offered. Typical HS kid. Blew off the rest. Met a friend in school who put me in touch with the Marines. Re-took the ASVAB scored much higher, received a list of jobs I qualified for, picked intelligence. Went to sign papers and it specifically stated that was my MOS.

Could the military still do whatever they want after papers are signed and you are off to bootcamp? Legally, no clue. Never heard of anyone getting screwed over on a contract they signed though.

True story:Great friend of mine took his ASVAB, scored high, signed an open contract (that allows the military to place you wherever), and he got intelligence. Lucky SOB. Mind you, this is back in '03/'04 so infantry jobs were in high demand.

The Wall:We've seen the numbers and how costly it is. In my opinion, great idea on paper but horrible idea in practice. You want to slow down illegal immigration then start to enforce the immigration laws we already have. I think people could be less likely to come over if they knew we took this issue seriously. Also, the wall won't prevent a terrorist from coming over to do bad things, terrorists are already here.

Terrorism:ISIS is a group that could be defeated rather 'easily'. In fact, a lot of the rebel factions/other terrorist organizations that are currently fighting them are doing enough of a job to make life harsh for them. Imagine what a well trained, prepared army of mass numbers would do? (Not advocating sending troops, simply stating how easily they could be defeated.) Syria is in a practical stalemate because its really 1 vs 1 vs 1. ISIS fighting rebels/regime, regime fighting ISIS/rebels, rebels fighting ISIS/regime. With Russia (publicly) and Iran (quietly) involved (Assad is Irans puppet), the regime will eventually win out. ISIS is terrible at fighting. Rebels don't have the money, weapons, or man power. (But look at all those military aged males who are fleeing the area. I digress.)

And yes, we created ISIS who are also using our weapons. (No, we didn't give them weapons. The Iraqi army when faced with danger dropped them and ran away, literally.)

Nuke Deal:Nobody on the other side of the planet likes the idea. Our allies in the ME are absolutely terrified. Why? Money Iran gets is going straight to their terrorist organizations. Simple as that. As for Iran, the nuke is simply a threat but their real objective is territorial control over the region which is why the 'invaded' Yemen, specifically, trying to gain control of a little body of water in the south end, next to Eritrea.

Some of this stuff you guys probably already knew, some of you might not have known. But, it helps to get a clearer picture of some things (not from the news).

Feel free to rip, shred, tear me a new one. Ask questions. Ignore. All the fun stuff that comes with an internet board.

 

[kmoose]

So how is that different than the ocean borders then? Cutting the trafficking down by eliminating financial incentives leaves less opportunity for trafficking for pure evil purposes.

Hate to piss in everyone's Cheerios but being safe and feeling safe are two different animals.

Here's the thing, though. I'm not saying that we shouldn't secure the ocean borders. We need to secure them all. But it certainly seems like the route du jour for trafficking anything into the US is along the Southern border. So let's start there.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Here's the thing, though. I'm not saying that we shouldn't secure the ocean borders. We need to secure them all. But it certainly seems like the route du jour for trafficking anything into the US is along the Southern border. So let's start there.

I think you're dealing with a false premise by saying we need to secure our borders though. It's a strong argument, to disagree with it sounds like one is being weak on security.

But to my knowledge the only country on earth with borders everyone would agree are secure would be North Korea. Everyone else has rather porous border security somewhere.

I guess I'm just saying the idea that one of the largest countries on earth could actually secure its border if it tried is kinda silly when you think about it. It's like 5,500 miles. It just isn't happening. I think it's more likely that a government contractor gets paid (think I found the motive!) and nothing changes...

 

[kmoose]

I think you're dealing with a false premise by saying we need to secure our borders though. It's a strong argument, to disagree with it sounds like one is being weak on security.

But to my knowledge the only country on earth with borders everyone would agree are secure would be North Korea. Everyone else has rather porous border security somewhere.

I guess I'm just saying the idea that one of the largest countries on earth could actually secure its border if it tried is kinda silly when you think about it. It's like 5,500 miles. It just isn't happening. I think it's more likely that a government contractor gets paid (think I found the motive!) and nothing changes...

Again....... someone could easily break one of your windows to get into your house, but that doesn't mean that you leave your doors open. The fewer openings you leave, the more effectively you can employ your resources.

 

[Wild Bill]

I think you're dealing with a false premise by saying we need to secure our borders though. It's a strong argument, to disagree with it sounds like one is being weak on security.

But to my knowledge the only country on earth with borders everyone would agree are secure would be North Korea. Everyone else has rather porous border security somewhere.

I guess I'm just saying the idea that one of the largest countries on earth could actually secure its border if it tried is kinda silly when you think about it. It's like 5,500 miles. It just isn't happening. I think it's more likely that a government contractor gets paid (think I found the motive!) and nothing changes...

Yes, but the US is in a unique situation. No other country on the planet faces the type of illegal immigration we face here. They can afford to have porous borders if nobody is interested in crossing them. People are interested in crossing ours in large numbers. Even if that has slowed in recent years, it's still a concern.

 

[pkt77242]

Again....... someone could easily break one of your windows to get into your house, but that doesn't mean that you leave your doors open. The fewer openings you leave, the more effectively you can employ your resources.

What? We have something like 20,000 border patrol agents. That is over double what we had in 2004. We have drones, motion sensors, etc. I wouldn't classify it as "leaving the doors open".

 

[kmoose]

What? We have something like 20,000 border patrol agents. That is over double what we had in 2004. We have drones, motion sensors, etc. I wouldn't classify it as "leaving the doors open".

With 500 illegal immigrants entering the country each day, on average, I would say it appears to be wide open. Maybe the manpower just isn't enough, or maybe the manpower just isn't effective due to morale, malaise, whatever........ but it's obviously not working on it's own. So give it some help

 

[GoldenDome]

Again....... someone could easily break one of your windows to get into your house, but that doesn't mean that you leave your doors open. The fewer openings you leave, the more effectively you can employ your resources.

They will only break in if there is something to take.

In this day an age, surely someone can think of a better and more cost efficient solution than a fence. Honestly, I hear fence and I roll my eyes. You can break it, go under it, and go over it.

And that still does nothing about Asian immigration and maternity hotels.