2016 Presidential Horse Race

[ACamp1900]

Price Tag of Bernie Sanders’s Proposals: $18 Trillion - WSJ

and we all know who will pay for it all... everyone. else. His slogan should be, "Lets Git Em America!!"

 

[Buster Bluth]

Price Tag of Bernie Sanders’s Proposals: $18 Trillion - WSJ

This should be the first clue that he's in populist mode and that he couldn't accomplish it all if he wanted to. Congress runs the show.

 

[phgreek]

There are many different types of unions. The UAW's issues with GM/Ford/Chrysler aren't comparable to the many trades unions, etc. Unions aren't a monolithic group.

...I understand your point. In general both are structures that came into being out of necessity...that CAN have issues of self destructive greed. If I had to pick which to control...it'd be a corp.

Thats not to say all of either is bad. But neither belong in politics to the degree they are.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

If a corporation is a person and has a right to spend its money to support a political candidate as an expression of free speech isn't a union also a person with a free speech right to spend its money in support of the political candidate of its choice?

If so, I think the union is much more in touch with the needs and desires of working class Americans than any corporation could ever be? Different interests entirely. One supports the working class and policies to improve its lot. One supports the wealthy class and giving the average worker as little as possible while maintaining the cash flow into the corporate coffers. One is for keeping jobs in America. One is for taking jobs out of America and giving them to the lowest bidder. If the average worker wants to know who supports his or her interests, he or she need only follow the money.

Giving a nod to Buster's statement that unions are not a monolithic group, I'll say:

Unions are often as dirty as corps, it's just the corps typically have more power. Don't try to feed me bullsh*t about how unions are for the working man. I've seen friends blackballed because they wouldn't join a local union.

Now if we are talking about large, national unions, I know nothing of them other than they wield as much power as corps.

And my whole point is that so far, Bernie looks like a very good candidate and I hope he wins the primaries for the Dems. From what I've seen of the republicans, they may not have an answer for him. Trump will never get my vote. I can't imagine him being presented to the rest of the world as our leader.

If the world didn't hate us enough for being rich, loud-mouthed and arrogant, we'd certainly be giving them more reasons.

 

[kmoose]

None taken. You could check his platform and accomplishments since he became mayor and I doubt you find little deviance btw his voting record, bills, and accomplishments. The dude walks the walk and talks the talk. Obama became a center right corporatist after his first year in the Office. I don't know what Bernie would become if he gets it but my money is on him telling all the monied interests to f'off as much as possible because he has never needed them to get his job done. And if you go back and look at his career donations from the unions, it pales in comparison to other Dems. He is like the least compensated politician on the Hill.

Its all hypothetical right now, but IMO out of all the people running for pres, Sanders is the one most likely to attempt to bridge gaps but also stick to his guns in the face of a raw deal and not give into donor pressure.Sanders is in the same boat as Trump essentially. Right now both of them are sufficiently winning without the big donors. What happens after primaries begin? IDK.

An admittedly very cursory review of Sanders' voting record in the Senate has one thing jumping out at me: I don't think he passes up a chance to spend money very often. He's voted for almost every chance to spend money in the last couple of years, except maybe the chance to require the completion of the fence along our Southern border. That concerns me, but it's not a deal breaker for me. I'll have to look harder at his record, when I have time.

 

[GoIrish41]

An admittedly very cursory review of Sanders' voting record in the Senate has one thing jumping out at me: I don't think he passes up a chance to spend money very often. He's voted for almost every chance to spend money in the last couple of years, except maybe the chance to require the completion of the fence along our Southern border. That concerns me, but it's not a deal breaker for me. I'll have to look harder at his record, when I have time.

Take your time. The election is 14 months away.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

You keep telling yourself that buddy.

Let's talk in 2016 when Biden is in, and Bernie has to start kissing some serious Democratic fundraisers' asses to keep his campaign going.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Now who is kidding themselves?

Even if he could get some things done, what do you think those things might be? Have you listened to him, at all? He disqualified himself for a huge portion of the country during his announcement to run for President and he's continued to spew hateful garbage ever since. How could your conscience ever let you vote for such a repulsive douche -- even if he stopped the ridiculous rhetoric from this point forward?

lol at the very least I enjoy watching Trump making you liberals lose your damn minds

 

[kmoose]

lol at the very least I enjoy watching Trump making you liberals lose your damn minds

What's interesting is that now Mark Cuban has said that he would beat all of the contenders, Democratic and Republican. If Trump's performance does nothing else other than open the door for non-career politicians to seriously consider the job, then I think that is a positive.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Price Tag of Bernie Sanders’s Proposals: $18 Trillion - WSJ

Whoa wait...a socialist's ideas and the math that go along with it don't add up? No shit.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

What's interesting is that now Mark Cuban has said that he would beat all of the contenders, Democratic and Republican. If Trump's performance does nothing else other than open the door for non-career politicians to seriously consider the job, then I think that is a positive.

Agreed. There's a reason Trump, Sanders, Carson, Fiorina are polling higher than others.

 

[GoIrish41]

lol at the very least I enjoy watching Trump making you liberals lose your damn minds

It is not Trump that makes me lose my mind, it is his growing support among Republicans. Frightening that there are so many who live in this country who want this moron to be president.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

As strange as it may seem both Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are appealing to the same basic emotions in the electorate. Their supporters are angry and frustrated at the status quo. Polled primary voters in both parties are saying "I'm fed up to here with this ****!"

The working class and poor supporters of the Democratic party are tired of seeing the fruits of their labor distributed so unequally. They want a more equitable distribution of the country's wealth. They feel the wealthy class is not paying their fair share.

The working class supporters of the Republican Party have been convinced that immigrants and the less fortunate are the cause of all their misfortune. They are convinced that they would be wealthier if it weren't for programs supporting education, the poor, the sick, or the elderly. They are holding out hope that someday they will be part of the wealthy class that is reaping most of the benefits of their labor.

In reality, the working class has been sold a bill of goods. The only way they will see any significant change in their lives is to unite and demand an economic plan that benefits everyone. Neither political party is offering a solution, and IMHO that is why Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump have such widespread support. A good portion of the electorate is saying "F*** You!" to both political parties by supporting the candidates least representative of the status quo.

The bolded is all far from the truth, and shows how little you read/ listen to the other side of the aisle. The rest you and I actually agree.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

It is not Trump that makes me lose my mind, it is his growing support among Republicans. Frightening that there are so many who live in this country who want this moron to be president.

You called him a repulsive douche. Clearly he strikes a nerve with you. He speaks the truth, doesn't apologize, and doesn't try to play nice guy with the media. People like it. Do I agree with everything he says? Nope. Does he have questions to answer? Yes. Is he my #1 choice? No. But...

That "moron", many people believe, is a better alternative than a woman being investigated for treason and a socialist who wants to take this country even further left than Obama has.

 

[GoIrish41]

You called him a repulsive douche. Clearly he strikes a nerve with you. He speaks the truth, doesn't apologize, and doesn't try to play nice guy with the media. People like it. Do I agree with everything he says? Nope. Does he have questions to answer? Yes. Is he my #1 choice? No. But...

That "moron", many people believe, is a better alternative than a woman being investigated for treason and a socialist who wants to take this country even further left than Obama has.

Her numbers are declining, his are rising. What does that say about the two parties?

Just curious ... What "truth" is he speaking? I can ignore him. Much tougher to ignore millions of people who support him. It is terrifying that so many people have found their ideal candidate in Trump.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Her numbers are declining, his are rising. What does that say about the two parties?

Nothing right now. But if the Dems actually put all their money and resources behind a full blown socialist for president, that will tell us all something: the party can finally admit to being what they have become.

 

[kmoose]

Her numbers are declining, his are rising. What does that say about the two parties?

Nothing. But I'm sure it says a lot to YOU.... confirmation bias and all, ya know?

 

[GoIrish41]

Nothing right now. But if the Dems actually put all their money and resources behind a full blown socialist for president, that will tell us all something: the party can finally admit to being what they have become.

I could make the same argument about the GOP support for Trump. They can finally admit what they have become.

 

[GoIrish41]

Nothing. But I'm sure it says a lot to YOU.... confirmation bias and all, ya know?

Oh look, moose is here to spread a little joy into my life. If you don't think a candidate's growing support among party voters does not say something about what they desire, I'm not sure there is anything to talk about on this topic. See ya.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I could make the same argument about the GOP support for Trump. They can finally admit what they have become.

You asked the question. I answered. I would argue Trump's popularity is the result of the GOP establishment repeatedly throwing out weak candidates (McCain, Romney, Jeb), and parties on both sides are craving someone from the outside who isn't entrenched in DC.

 

[GoIrish41]

You asked the question. I answered. I would argue Trump's popularity is the result of the GOP establishment repeatedly throwing out weak candidates (McCain, Romney, Jeb), and parties on both sides are craving someone from the outside who isn't entrenched in DC.

But why Trump? They have like 37 other candidates to pick from. Why the loudmouth bigot Trump and not the intelligent and reasonable Kasich, who is barely a blip on the GOP voter radar? Choices are being made and I would argue that those choices depict the party.

I would also argue that what made McCain and makes Jeb and to a lesser extent made Romney weak candidates was the primary process in which the party pushed or is pushing them so far right. The majority of folks don't want a candidate from Crazytown, so instead of pushing a candidate slowly there (where the loudest republicans want their leader), the GOP is starting there, with an evil clown calling everyone names and rambling on about how awesome and rich he is. These are qualities almost universally disliked by people, but the GOP is embracing Trump more and more each poll. This is either the world's most brilliant political strategy or the most idiotic. Either that or it is a sad commentary on the once great GOP. A third of the party is making a mockery of the party for the rest.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

But why Trump? They have like 37 other candidates to pick from. Why the loudmouth bigot Trump and not the intelligent and reasonable Kasich, who is barely a blip on the GOP voter radar? Choices are being made and I would argue that those choices depict the party.

I would also argue that what made McCain and makes Jeb and to a lesser extent made Romney weak candidates was the primary process in which the party pushed or is pushing them so far right. The majority of folks don't want a candidate from Crazytown, so instead of pushing a candidate slowly there (where the loudest republicans want their leader), the GOP is starting there, with an evil clown calling everyone names and rambling on about how awesome and rich he is. These are qualities almost universally disliked by people, but the GOP is embracing Trump more and more each poll. This is either the world's most brilliant political strategy or the most idiotic. Either that or it is a sad commentary on the once great GOP. A third of the party is making a mockery of the party for the rest.

Why Trump? First, it's still very early in the process, he's a celebrity without politics, and the media slobber over every word he utters. He gets more attention, right or wrong. Why not Kasich? He "opposes" Obamacare but took ACA money to expand Medicaid in OH, and financially they're going to pay for it big time. He's a phony Republican, like McCain, like Romney, like Boehner. That's why.

I think it would help if you separate "the GOP" from "conservatives." The leaders of the GOP are buffoons, and the closer they are to DC the further removed they are from what conservatives want. Again, it's verrry early. We've had one debate. Hate on Trump all you want, but I think Ben Carson should cause you more worry than Trump. We'll see.

 

[GoIrish41]

Why Trump? First, it's still very early in the process, he's a celebrity without politics, and the media slobber over every word he utters. He gets more attention, right or wrong. Why not Kasich? He "opposes" Obamacare but took ACA money to expand Medicaid in OH, and financially they're going to pay for it big time. He's a phony Republican, like McCain, like Romney, like Boehner. That's why.

I think it would help if you separate "the GOP" from "conservatives." The leaders of the GOP are buffoons, and the closer they are to DC the further removed they are from what conservatives want. Again, it's verrry early. We've had one debate. Hate on Trump all you want, but I think Ben Carson should cause you more worry than Trump. We'll see.

I am not worried about either of them, to be honest. Whomever ends up being the candidate is going to have to go thru the Republican Party meat grinder and will have to take positions that will prevent them from appealing to the majority of Americans and they will lose. We've all seen this movie. If I used GOP and conservative interchangeably I apologize. Not my intent, and in fact I am working on that as a result of our conversations. Back on point ... My post was fully about the party and the people who identify as republicans. I know you are right leaning "independent" and will eventually come over to bask in the glow of the Bern and by to means would identify as a republican.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I am not worried about either of them, to be honest. Whomever ends up being the candidate is going to have to go thru the Republican Party meat grinder and will have to take positions that will prevent them from appealing to the majority of Americans and they will lose. We've all seen this movie. If I used GOP and conservative interchangeably I apologize. Not my intent, and in fact I am working on that as a result of our conversations. Back on point ... My post was fully about the party and the people who identify as republicans. I know you are right leaning "independent" and will eventually come over to bask in the glow of the Bern and by to means would identify as a republican.

Now we're getting somewhere.

1) For fun, let's assume it's Trump. Trump is anti establishment, and more importantly doesn't have to kiss any ass for cash. He can do and say whatever the hell he wants. He won't be forced into any positions.

2) On the flip side, let's assume Bernie the Clown gets the nomination. He will be forced to take certain positions to move more towards the middle. No way in 2016 the Democratic Party will be ready to identify as socialist and win a presidential campaign. America hasn't dipped that low...yet.

 

[GoIrish41]

Now we're getting somewhere.

1) For fun, let's assume it's Trump. Trump is anti establishment, and more importantly doesn't have to kiss any ass for cash. He can do and say whatever the hell he wants. He won't be forced into any positions.My personal attitude about my vows is the only guide to what I can do?

2) On the flip side, let's assume Bernie the Clown gets the nomination. He will be forced to take certain positions to move more towards the middle. No way in 2016 the Democratic Party will be ready to identify as socialist and win a presidential campaign. America hasn't dipped that low...yet.

That would be a hoot!

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

Now we're getting somewhere.

1) For fun, let's assume it's Trump. Trump is anti establishment, and more importantly doesn't have to kiss any ass for cash. He can do and say whatever the hell he wants. He won't be forced into any positions.

2) On the flip side, let's assume Bernie the Clown gets the nomination. He will be forced to take certain positions to move more towards the middle. No way in 2016 the Democratic Party will be ready to identify as socialist and win a presidential campaign. America hasn't dipped that low...yet.

Trump's not taking any cash from anyone?

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Now we're getting somewhere.

1) For fun, let's assume it's Trump. Trump is anti establishment, and more importantly doesn't have to kiss any ass for cash. He can do and say whatever the hell he wants. He won't be forced into any positions.

2) On the flip side, let's assume Bernie the Clown gets the nomination. He will be forced to take certain positions to move more towards the middle. No way in 2016 the Democratic Party will be ready to identify as socialist and win a presidential campaign. America hasn't dipped that low...yet.

1) Which establishment(s) is he anti?

2) You keep using the word socialist, would you mind replying with a list of things that make Bernie a socialist. I just want to better understand if I'm a socialist. The political polls I've taken have strongly aligned me with Bernie.

 

[GoIrish41]

1) Which establishment(s) is he anti?

2) You keep using the word socialist, would you mind replying with a list of things that make Bernie a socialist. I just want to better understand if I'm a socialist. The political polls I've taken have strongly aligned me with Bernie.

Good question.

 

[GoIrish41]

Trump's not taking any cash from anyone?

He was sending up a test balloon on this topic at a rally yesterday or today, I read somewhere.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Trump's not taking any cash from anyone?

Taking cash and spending time on your knees begging people for money are not the same.