Notre Dame to consider starting it's own football league.

[BobbyMac]

Lot of smart guys here can't agree on the topic and we all share the same passion for one single team.... imagine how hard it is for people with money on the line at different private and public institutions. Stalemate's a good thing.

 

[ACamp1900]

Lot of smart guys here can't agree on the topic and we all share the same passion for one single team.... imagine how hard it is for people with money on the line at different private and public institutions. Stalemate's a good thing.

I disagree.

 

[NDTH91]

I like where you're coming from but I don't think you put enough responsibility on the players. I don't think there are any players just itching to study Chemical Engineering but are forced into those joke majors you describe. Even football factories offer legitimate courses of study, but it's up to the student to select those courses. I totally agree about four year scholarships and the NCAA could fix that tomorrow if they wanted. Just eliminate the "once a counter, always a counter" rule. Let Saban and Urbie cut guys who suck but let them stay in school without counting towards the 85.

Unfortunately this isn't always true. My girlfriend is an academic coach at a Big Ten school. She had a football player that came in his freshmen year and said he wanted to study pharmacology. The administration basically told him "no, you can't" and encouraged him to take something easier - a "joke major".

The saddest part is, with the way things are set up - the administration was right. This kid would never have made it in pharmacology. He's barely scraping by in his current major - even with the help of my Notre-Dame-alumna girlfriend. He came into college with a very sub-par education and wouldn't be at any college if it weren't for football.

These kids need so much more help from the academic side. They need semester long classes; not hour long tutoring sessions where all they want to do is figure out how to get their homework for that week done. I don't know what the answer is... all academic underperformers take academic redshirts until they can make the grade?

Too many kids get pushed through the system whether they want to or not...

 

[GEORGIA DOMER]

I'd watch

 

[IrishinSyria]

Because amateurism is part of what makes the sport great. Kids playing because they love football, 99% of them knowing full well they'll never make a career out of it.

But that's a myth. If you like amateurism, watch D3 sports. Or, watch colleges hockey, where the players self selected into college instead of going pro. But I'm watching USF v Florida St right now and there is nothing amateur about it. The underarmour and Nike logos are all over the university gear. The game is sponsored by Chevorlet and the Home Depot. Do I believe the ayers care about their education? Not for a minute. Not that the universities care about their education either.

There is nothing amateur about today's big time college football.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Unfortunately this isn't always true. My girlfriend is an academic coach at a Big Ten school. She had a football player that came in his freshmen year and said he wanted to study pharmacology. The administration basically told him "no, you can't" and encouraged him to take something easier - a "joke major".

The saddest part is, with the way things are set up - the administration was right. This kid would never have made it in pharmacology. He's barely scraping by in his current major - even with the help of my Notre-Dame-alumna girlfriend. He came into college with a very sub-par education and wouldn't be at any college if it weren't for football.

These kids need so much more help from the academic side. They need semester long classes; not hour long tutoring sessions where all they want to do is figure out how to get their homework for that week done. I don't know what the answer is... all academic underperformers take academic redshirts until they can make the grade?

Too many kids get pushed through the system whether they want to or not...

A lot of kids coming out of high school just aren't prepared for college. Here in Alabama, public education is horrendous. A large part of that is due to education being left up to politicians and not professional educators. While many schools here offer advanced high school degrees and AP and honors courses, there are still many that don't or have them at a minimum level. Sadly when kids graduate high school, football players or not, many are not equipped to go to college and take majors that will give them a better opportunity in life. They are then "routed" to majors that are easier for them, less demanding, and limits their ability to get the value of their degree. Until the issues are fixed at the pre-college level - and they won't anytime soon - colleges will continue to do whatever they have to do in order to get the kids through.

On the other side, I do think many universities try to provide as much help to student athletes as they can given the requirements that athletics put on the student athlete. But all too often, the kid who isn't prepare to begin with, doesn't take advantage of the opportunities they are given. Especially those who wrongfully believe in three years they will be the next first round draft pick. They will get by doing as little as possible because quite frankly that's all they have had to do since they started school years ago. And sadly, when educators at universities have tried to increase academic requirements, it is met with opposition from a political, socio-economic standpoint through lawsuits, etc.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

T-Town, I would say majority of kids coming out of high school aren't prepared for college, especially those from public schools in cities with larger (250,000+) populations.

 

[T Town Tommy]

T-Town, I would say majority of kids coming out of high school aren't prepared for college, especially those from public schools in cities with larger (250,000+) populations.

Agree. My son, who is a secondary education major, really opened my eyes to the challenges facing educators. I have learned a lot from him on the subject and he taught me that it isn't always an easy answer. He is adamant that he wants to make a difference next year when he starts teaching. I am hoping he can find satisfaction in a profession that is overly demanding and pitifully paid.

 

[dales5050]

Send me the names of the ones Saban cuts.

You're right. Saban and staff have never signed more kids than other schools by a wide margin. For some reason, Saban has found a special way to sign 25 to 26 kids every single year. For some reason, Alabama ALWAYS miraculously finds just enough "undisclosed team rules", transfers, greyshirts, medical casualties and the like to keep the roster at 85. It's amazing how the bottom 1/3 of the Alabama roster cycles out at such a different pace than every other program. It's amazing how only Alabama is just so unique while being inside of the rules.

Every one of the 100+ national reporters and 10s of thousands of fans who all see it are simply making it up.

Oh and there are no names of players 'cut'....we all know the game.

I do find it amusing that bama fans are either dumb enough to honestly think nothing is going or or arrogant enough to sing the company song in front of educated football fans.

 

[T Town Tommy]

You're right. Saban and staff have never signed more kids than other schools by a wide margin. For some reason, Saban has found a special way to sign 25 to 26 kids every single year. For some reason, Alabama ALWAYS miraculously finds just enough "undisclosed team rules", transfers, greyshirts, medical casualties and the like to keep the roster at 85. It's amazing how the bottom 1/3 of the Alabama roster cycles out at such a different pace than every other program. It's amazing how only Alabama is just so unique while being inside of the rules.

Every one of the 100+ national reporters and 10s of thousands of fans who all see it are simply making it up.

Oh and there are no names of players 'cut'....we all know the game.

I do find it amusing that bama fans are either dumb enough to honestly think nothing is going or or arrogant enough to sing the company song in front of educated football fans.

Again, send me the names of who he cut. I'll wait.

If a kid leaves for lack of playing time and is told he probably won't see the field very much, does that constitute cutting? If so, then there are many that fall under that category at every school. Greyshirting? No problem with that if the kid knows well enough beforehand that they will be asked to greyshirt. Medical disqualifications? Every school has them. And the "facts" about the names that have been thrown out here of players at Bama that have had medical disqualification is so wrong it has been laughable. The oversigning thread on this very thing with Bama has the info. All I have ever asked is that if someone posts about it, then supply all the facts, not just the ones that bolster arguments. Sadly, that's not the case out here.

 

[JTLA]

I think I can help here. You see, I love data. Data will tell you things that anecdotal evidence won't. Sure, we can find a name of a kid somewhere somehow who got shafted. I'm sure it happens everywhere.

Let's start with a question.

Understanding the NCAA limits, what factors might be involved that would contribute to some schools accepting less scholarships than others?

If we looked at data showing how many were signed from each school we could ask why to try to understand the differences.

So if I showed you that, for example, Mississippi signed 213 in the last 8 years, and Northwestern signed 147 (that's a delta of 8.25 per year BTW), to what would SEC fans attribute that?

Are Mississippi boys just bigger quitters?
Do they care less about football?
Do they get way more injured?
Does Northwestern not have the money to pay for scholarships?
Can Northwestern not find 85 guys who want them?

I think we'd have to agree that it's not likely there is any data to support any of these false assertions.

Here are some legitimate assertions I can make:

Many Northwestern players have had greater academic success in HS, meaning fewer are likely to drop out of college. They are also more likely to qualify academically to begin with.

Northwestern has had very few if any players leave early for the NFL.

Coaching changes and scheme changes could lead to more players wanting to transfer. Northwestern has had one coach in the last 8 years, Ole Miss has had two.

Please, in all seriousness, can anyone help me with what other factors could contribute to this delta? If it isn't a culture of pushing kids out, culling the herd, if you will, what is it? Why does the SEC have the FIVE most in the past 8 years?

Here is a link to a google doc I created which digests all the signing data for the last 8 years, as reported by Rivals.com. The second sheet digests the top 75 programs to weed out outliers like Army which are quite frankly irrelevant to the conversation. There are other options and ways to sort the data, but don't get confused, I'm sorting column K on the Top75 sheet.

BTW - Alabama is 2nd highest on the list with 208 and ND is 47th with 175.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19Hb38bTWx1H-d0dH-zCNV70m2t8eQpsuA5Dh3HkuCRo/edit?usp=sharing

 

[T Town Tommy]

I think I can help here. You see, I love data. Data will tell you things that anecdotal evidence won't. Sure, we can find a name of a kid somewhere somehow who got shafted. I'm sure it happens everywhere.

Let's start with a question.

Understanding the NCAA limits, what factors might be involved that would contribute to some schools accepting less scholarships than others?

If we looked at data showing how many were signed from each school we could ask why to try to understand the differences.

So if I showed you that, for example, Mississippi signed 213 in the last 8 years, and Northwestern signed 147 (that's a delta of 8.25 per year BTW), to what would SEC fans attribute that?

Are Mississippi boys just bigger quitters?
Do they care less about football?
Do they get way more injured?
Does Northwestern not have the money to pay for scholarships?
Can Northwestern not find 85 guys who want them?

I think we'd have to agree that it's not likely there is any data to support any of these false assertions.

Here are some legitimate assertions I can make:

Many Northwestern players have had greater academic success in HS, meaning fewer are likely to drop out of college. They are also more likely to qualify academically to begin with.

Northwestern has had very few if any players leave early for the NFL.

Coaching changes and scheme changes could lead to more players wanting to transfer. Northwestern has had one coach in the last 8 years, Ole Miss has had two.

Please, in all seriousness, can anyone help me with what other factors could contribute to this delta? If it isn't a culture of pushing kids out, culling the herd, if you will, what is it? Why does the SEC have the FIVE most in the past 8 years?

Here is a link to a google doc I created which digests all the signing data for the last 8 years, as reported by Rivals.com. The second sheet digests the top 75 programs to weed out outliers like Army which are quite frankly irrelevant to the conversation. There are other options and ways to sort the data, but don't get confused, I'm sorting column K on the Top75 sheet.

BTW - Alabama is 2nd highest on the list with 208 and ND is 47th with 175.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19Hb38bTWx1H-d0dH-zCNV70m2t8eQpsuA5Dh3HkuCRo/edit?usp=sharing

There are lots of contributing factors to why schools have more signings over a particular period of time. The oversigning thread goes in to great detail about it. But as I have stated, the information given through stats, innuendo, what people may think is occurring is generally wrong when looking at each individual school and their numbers. As I have stated, there were four to five Bama player names thrown out there in that thread and in each case, the poster didn't have a clue as to why a player left, what the reason was for them leaving, or why they received a medical hardship. Or even why they were kicked off the team. Their post fit their notion that Bama wasn't above board with what they did with those players. I posted out very detailed information on each one. How did I know and not the OPs? hard to say... it was pretty common knowledge if one takes the time to research it instead of just bolstering their narrative.


edit: I actually sent the detailed info to one of the posters in a PM... he chose to post my PM out there. Not that it was a big deal but he still never retracted or even remotely tried to correct his posts about it.

And this conversation is really derailing this thread. Maybe it is best suited in the Oversigning thread.

 

[blackirish]

I could understand a call for expanded scholarships to those who participate but don't receive any help. But outright payment is ridiculous. The 85 s holarship players are receiving a world class education ($75k) per year for $0. It's not like nobody is receiving any sort of compensation.
Are these institutions really making hundreds of millions? I mean once the full scholarship cost is deducted, travel, clothing, gear, food.......the list goes on.

Well Adidas this pass year ink the University of Miami to $ 90 million bucks and you have to figure their share of TV money that they will receive from the ACC and other school apparel that the school sales.......and that's just Miami so you can imagine what the SEC and Big 10 Schools are making.....so sure there are some of these Institutions that are making hundreds of millions of dollars.

 

[Legacy]

It's beyond time to accept that 3T has a blind spot when it comes to discussing Alabama recruiting and roster management. Details like a spreadsheet and factors that differ with other SEC schools meet with innuendo of personal bias, "no different than other schools", "players best interests" or non-responsiveness.

To return to the topic, in a way there's just too much of a difference between Bama fans as proponents of a "business model" for roster management and universities that are student-focused like NW, Stanford, etc and even large public universities in conferences that commit to four year scholarships.

I detailed lots of factors that do face - and separate - the SEC teams from each other. But suffice it to say that the culture and values are different enough that, if ND had to choose, I have no doubt they would not choose to pursue a semi-professional, business model for their program and would separate themselves if it came to that.

3T has stated he enjoyed the saying "Croot 'em in masses, then fire their asses". Just a different way of looking at college football.

 

[T Town Tommy]

.

Decided to delete this post as it was uncalled for on my part. Sorry for my rant. Sometimes it's just best to say nothing.

 

[Irish#1]

It's been pointed out more than once, but the number of players signed and on scholarship have no bearing on if student athletes should be paid.

 

[dales5050]

Again, send me the names of who he cut. I'll wait.

There are not cuts but Saban and staff run kids out of the program.

If you do not want to accept this, that's on you. I get it....the results are really nice and it's something that Alabama fans can live with.

If a kid leaves for lack of playing time and is told he probably won't see the field very much, does that constitute cutting?

No. But a player being told they should look for another school and then making life miserable is an issue.

Like I said before. Things like transfers and medical scholarships happen at every program. The difference is the volume of these at Alabama and the number of kids Alabama signs each and every year.

The number of times these 'tools' happen to kids NOT in the 2-deep is not coincidental unless you need it to be.

Greyshirting? No problem with that if the kid knows well enough beforehand that they will be asked to greyshirt.

I don't know you so I hope a comment like this is just ignorance because the alternative is being an a**hole fan.

You said 'if a kid knows well enough beforehand' as your excuse. I am assuming you're saying knowing well enough before signing day. Even using this 'logic' is pretty shitty.

When a school takes a verbal, they are for many kids taking that kid off the market. While the top TOP players are recruited to the last day, many of the lower ranking kids are not.

What you're failing to grasp is how detrimental this is to kids. Mostly likely because you don't care. But when a kid takes himself off the market and then finds out his scholarship is no longer there...that's pretty f*cked up.

What Alabama has done so many times over the years is start the class out with marginal kids and chase the big names. As they fill the class with better talent, the marginal kids are told there is not room for them in this particular class. THIS IS NOT as you put it 'well enough beforehand' so that the kid does not get screwed.

Once a kid is told there is no more room at the inn, they are faced with a difficult choice and even more limited options. They can suck up their pride and take the greyshirt or they can look for another school. If they take the former, they are still sitting out of the classroom for a year but I don't expect you to even consider this..let alone care about it. If they take the latter option, they are no looking at a limited number of schools that have room for them.

As for some names ....

Darius Philon was not told until almost the day he was supposed to sign. He was lucky enough to make it to Arkansas. Christian Bell had his greyshirt confirmed just 2 days before signing day. We know there are more.....

But none of this matters. Alabama fans will find the semantics or phrasing that is needed to justify how the football roster is managed.

You're free to do this among other bama fans...as it's all one good jerk. But when you try and pass that BS off to other fans who know the difference....you either look ignorant or come off as a complete a**hole fan.

Not going to bother with the rest of the points....

Have a good one. Good luck this season. I have the feeling your personal happiness has a lot to do with how well a college football team plays....

 

[woolybug25]

Dale... that's a poor post, man. Tommy wasn't disrespectful in his post and all he asked was for proof of the things you are claiming happened. Instead of giving him facts, you gave him a bunch of hyperbole, including the gem of essentially saying he's either an idiot or an ahole...

If the tables were turned, people would be calling for Tommy's head for a rambling, nonsense post like this. It was a disrespectful way of debate.

 

[ACamp1900]

I tried to take the high road and sent the info to you in a PM. You decided to post my PM... which was, for lack of a better phrase, a pure dickhead move on your part.

That may have been me in fairness... Off memory (and I don't hold unto things like some here so maybe I mis-remember) I think you and I got into something like that when you first started posting here and I thought you were a basic sec troll... now I know you're a decent guy aside from your love of cheating, scandal and dubious title claims in cfb..........

 

[T Town Tommy]

That may have been me in fairness... Off memory (and I don't hold unto things like some here so maybe I mis-remember) I think you and I got into something like that when you first started posting here and I thought you were a basic sec troll... now I know you're a decent guy aside from your love of cheating, scandal and dubious title claims in cfb..........

You know you're ok with me ACamp....plus I get you Iron Bowl tickets. Or I used to till you started up again.

 

[T Town Tommy]

As for some names ....

Darius Philon was not told until almost the day he was supposed to sign. He was lucky enough to make it to Arkansas. Christian Bell had his greyshirt confirmed just 2 days before signing day. We know there are more.....

Philon was still active in his interest in other schools at the time he was committed to Bama. If you remember, he initially committed to Auburn then switched to Bama. He was injured his senior year and was asked by Saban to delay his entry to Bama until January. He choose not to and went on to Arkansas. There is plenty of conflicting information as to when the request from Saban was made as some reports put it weeks before NSD, other reports one week before signing day, and other people claiming on NSD. The genral consensus was that he was asked about two weeks before to delay his entry.

Bell knew from his initial recruitment that he was probably going to be asked to greyshirt. And Bell himself stated several weeks out that he would be fine with that if that was indeed the case.

For the record Dale, I probably spend more time following Notre Dame football than I do Alabama football. I do attend several Bama games each year but during the week I try to keep up with the Irish. I have a great life outside of football so I don't lose sight of the fact that it is just a game. I have always tried to be cordial and respectful... and I sometimes fail...... but I don't wish any ill will on any team, player, fan, etc. And God willing, the sun will rise on Sunday whether the teams I cheer for win or lose.

 

[Monk]

Then according to Whiskeys stats you keep parroting about 100 D1 schools should "fire" all of their players. Your premise is faulty, it's not the individual players responsibility to make sure the program makes money. Weather the AD and board of directors are able to turn a profit on the money football brings in has no impact on weather or not the players did their jobs. If some Wal Mart doesn't make a profit it's not the employees who stock the shelves fault, and those employees still get.paid for the time they spent working. Going forward maybe that Wal Mart should reevaluate how they do business, but one of their option WON'T be hey let's not pay our employees.

I believe UAB would disagree with you. Essentially they did fire the players.

 

[GATTACA!]

I believe UAB would disagree with you. Essentially they did fire the players.

Didn't the AD get in a ton of shit and was basically forced to bring the program back?

 

[dales5050]

Dale... that's a poor post, man. Tommy wasn't disrespectful in his post and all he asked was for proof of the things you are claiming happened. Instead of giving him facts, you gave him a bunch of hyperbole, including the gem of essentially saying he's either an idiot or an ahole...

If the tables were turned, people would be calling for Tommy's head for a rambling, nonsense post like this. It was a disrespectful way of debate.

I said ignorant not idiot and asshole fan not asshole. Huge difference. Huge.

Being a ruthless fan does not make you a bad friend, father or brother. It just means that you place zero regard for the process and only are concerned with the result.

Being ignorant, either willfully or unintentionally, is not a measure of someones intelligence. I have brilliant surgeons for clients that are completely ignorant when it comes to technology for example.


As for the issue of facts, there are no facts to say that Alabama cuts players. We all know that a roster 'cut' does not happen in college. That said, it is a fact that Alabama has averaged 26 kids in a class over the last 9 years.

 

[Monk]

Didn't the AD get in a ton of shit and was basically forced to bring the program back?

Without doing any research, I believe so. The point is colleges could and have cut ties with a sports program over cost of sustaining that program. Although it is not usually football or basketball.

 

[GATTACA!]

Without doing any research, I believe so. The point is colleges could and have cut ties with a sports program over cost of sustaining that program. Although it is not usually football or basketball.

1 situation out of 132 D1 schools seems more like an outlier to me. Plus I don't think they suspended the football program because it was costing money, there was some seriously shady stuff going on.