[NFL] vBook: Colts vs Patriots (Deflategate)

[Rhode Irish]

I was sincerely curious. I don't know of, haven't read, and haven't heard of, a single person that shares that view.

Did you read the Wells report? It's pretty clear that there were two different pressure gauges used to measure the footballs, and that those gauges were off from one another by as much as 0.4 PSI. Referee Walt Anderson said he remembered using the gauges in a sequence that would completely exonerate the Patriots, but he wasn't absolutely positive so the investigators concluded that he must have been mistaken and used the gauges in a sequence that would indicate deliberate tampering. It's also worth noting that one of the pressure gauges also showed that the Colts' footballs were also under the legal limit.

But not one person has bothered to respond to this.

Which part do you disagree with? The NFL leaked false info early which made Brady guilty from the start. They made no effort to correct the false media leak despite other instances when they've corrected the media. Hell, they even sent the Patriots false PSI info in their investigation letter and didn't correct that for months. The Wells Report cherry picks when to believe the referee and when not to to help fill the guilty narrative. They even ran a god damn sting operation. Not to mention that Goodell refused to let someone else hear Brady's appeal (which he has done in nearly every other case). Say what you want about the sketchy texts or Brady's phone, but the NFL has been far from the good guys throughout this entire thing.

I get the suspicions and people not trusting/liking the Patriots and Brady, but I figured more people would question the judgement of an authoritarian in Goodell who has shown he is incapable of handing down a single fair punishment in the past and who hired an "independent" investigator who cited client-attorney privilege to hide Deflategate correspondence for the Brady appeal.

I think what all this shows is that most people outside of New England do not care enough to pay close attention to what is going on, and so it is pretty easy to manipulate public sentiment with leaked false information and purposeful misdirection in public statements like what the League released yesterday. People in New England, on the other hand, have been hanging on all the actual details and following the endless pattern of leaked incriminating information and the subsequent discrediting of that leaked information (which is never covered as fully in the media as the initial leak, because what fun is that?). Obviously New Englanders are accused of being in the tank for Brady and being homers and being delusional about their team's guilt - and I'm sure on at least some level that is fair. But we are also the only people really invested in it and therefore generally have a much better command of all the relevant facts, and who the parties are and what their motivations might be.

I've likened it before to the ND situation with Manti or Declan Sullivan; the public narrative was one thing, and any attempts by ND fans to challenge that narrative were met with flat dismissals from everyone else on the basis that ND fans were obviously delusional. No thought was given to the idea that ND fans were following the details much more acutely than everyone else, who took two or three easy-to-condense soundbites or factoids and made the entirety of what they felt was required to understand the situation. Exactly the same thing here for Patriots fans. Exactly the same.

 

[FrankMA]

Referee Walt Anderson said he remembered using the gauges in a sequence that would completely exonerate the Patriots, but he wasn't absolutely positive so the investigators concluded that he must have been mistaken and used the gauges in a sequence that would indicate deliberate tampering. It's also worth noting that one of the pressure gauges also showed that the Colts' footballs were also under the legal limit.

But not one person has bothered to respond to this.

A. Luck should also be suspended for 4 games also since the Colts balls were underinflated.
Actually, any person with half a brain would realize that nobody should be suspended for anything after all the facts are viewed.

 

[wizards8507]

Goodell sucks, no doubt... but to act like this is all about Goodell sucking, and then to turn around and to disregard the fact that the Patriots were *probably* being shady/cheating again is a bit hypocritical.

Nope, I fully agree that someone in the organization was "probably being shady." But that goes back to the "more likely than not" and "at least generally aware" standards of proof. I don't think "someone in the organization probably being shady" is sufficient cause to suspend a player four games (for a violation of an equipment policy that doesn't apply to players in the first place).

We can use Goodell's history to show why he's probably being unfair, but we can't use the Patriots' history to show that they were probably breaking the rules?

Tom Brady had nothing to do with Spygate, and even the staunchest haters agree that Bill Belichick probably had nothing to do with Deflategate. "The Patriots" is a pretty broad brush.

 

[wizards8507]

I think what all this shows is that most people outside of New England do not care enough to pay close attention to what is going on, and so it is pretty easy to manipulate public sentiment with leaked false information and purposeful misdirection in public statements like what the League released yesterday. People in New England, on the other hand, have been hanging on all the actual details and following the endless pattern of leaked incriminating information and the subsequent discrediting of that leaked information (which is never covered as fully in the media as the initial leak, because what fun is that?). Obviously New Englanders are accused of being in the tank for Brady and being homers and being delusional about their team's guilt - and I'm sure on at least some level that is fair. But we are also the only people really invested in it and therefore generally have a much better command of all the relevant facts, and who the parties are and what their motivations might be.

I've likened it before to the ND situation with Manti or Declan Sullivan; the public narrative was one thing, and any attempts by ND fans to challenge that narrative were met with flat dismissals from everyone else on the basis that ND fans were obviously delusional. No thought was given to the idea that ND fans were following the details much more acutely than everyone else, who took two or three easy-to-condense soundbites or factoids and made the entirety of what they felt was required to understand the situation. Exactly the same thing here for Patriots fans. Exactly the same.

TL;DR: Pats fans aren't defending Brady because we're idiots "in the tank" for him, but because we're the ones actually paying attention to the caliber of bullshit that the NFL has been slinging since the beginning.

Can't rep you again, but brilliant analogy with the ND "controversies."

 

[gkIrish]

There must be a website that can only be accessed by Patriots fans where they decide to unify around certain theories that begin to sound factual after they repeat them a few different times.

The "celebrities destroy their phones every 6 months" theory is still my favorite Patriots fan theory. (Still waiting on an actual source for that wizards).

I also like the "600 page report was entirely debunked by a few Phd Patriots fans" Patriots fan theory.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I do like how this, along with most conversations on this board, quickly turn in to personal slights. Some people just can't simply argue or express their points without intentionally insulting someone who disagrees.

 

[FrankMA]

There must be a website that can only be accessed by Patriots fans where they decide to unify around certain theories that begin to sound factual after they repeat them a few different times.

The "celebrities destroy their phones every 6 months" theory is still my favorite Patriots fan theory. (Still waiting on an actual source for that wizards).

I also like the "600 page report was entirely debunked by a few Phd Patriots fans" Patriots fan theory.

If Tom Brady's phone was destroyed or not is meaningless since they had all the text messages sent to the club house attendants from their cell phones. What they don't have is any text messages he sent to his wife or non Patriots employees which are not relevant to the investigation. So what is the big deal. They didn't have anything to sell to TMZ or any other gossip group.

 

[Irish Insanity]

There must be a website that can only be accessed by Patriots fans where they decide to unify around certain theories that begin to sound factual after they repeat them a few different times.

The "celebrities destroy their phones every 6 months" theory is still my favorite Patriots fan theory. (Still waiting on an actual source for that wizards).

I also like the "600 page report was entirely debunked by a few Phd Patriots fans" Patriots fan theory.

I have a very close friend. Diehard Pats and Brady fan. Since he was young. And even he doesn't believe some of the stuff the Pats fans on here are saying. He at least admits Brady should shoulder some responsibility. He must be dumb like the rest of us.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I do like how this, along with most conversations on this board, quickly turn in to personal slights. Some people just can't simply argue or express their points without intentionally insulting someone who disagrees.

That's because you're a jerk.

 

[Irish Insanity]

If Tom Brady's phone was destroyed or not is meaningless since they had all the text messages sent to the club house attendants from their cell phones. What they don't have is any text messages he sent to his wife or non Patriots employees which are not relevant to the investigation. So what is the big deal. They didn't have anything to sell to TMZ or any other gossip group.

So no other texts are relevant that weren't sent directly to those 2 employees? He could've easily had discussions with someone else regarding the situation.

 

[IrishLion]

Tom Brady had nothing to do with Spygate, and even the staunchest haters agree that Bill Belichick probably had nothing to do with Deflategate. "The Patriots" is a pretty broad brush.

"The Patriots" is exactly the brush you need to paint it with though. Or is it just a coincidence that an organization already caught up in a pretty big instance of cheating now has two "rogue" equipment guys breaking the rules?

 

[Monk]

Tommy Boy should have fallen on the sword as soon as the news came out. Simply stating that he liked the footballs as low as legally possible and maybe they went slightly too far when trying to meet his request - weather could have been a factor, etc. Admit doing it, play the "just a bit too far" scenario as an honest mistake, and the league probably goes light on him. The league probably slaps him with a fine just to say they addressed the issue, and Tommy Boy is suiting up against Pittsburgh free and clear. And those that liked him before still like him and those that hated him before still hate him.

This would have been the best way to handle it, if this story came out after the Super Bowl. I believe he denied it just so that there was no chance of him or the team having penalties levied on him prior to the game. Once the game was over he could have found a better way of handling it to easy into your statement, but he dug in and denied even more.

 

[wizards8507]

"The Patriots" is exactly the brush you need to paint it with though. Or is it just a coincidence that an organization already caught up in a pretty big instance of cheating now has two "rogue" equipment guys breaking the rules?

Sorry, you have proof that rogue equipment guys broke the rules? I seem to recall rogue equipment guys inflating or deflating footballs to a league-approved 13 PSI. I can provide plenty of evidence of NFL officials breaking the rules and inflating balls to an illegal 16 PSI.

Again, why no Aaron Rodgers outrage? Why nobody calling for his head?

 

[Irish Insanity]

Sorry, you have proof that rogue equipment guys broke the rules? I seem to recall rogue equipment guys inflating or deflating footballs to a league-approved 13 PSI. I can provide plenty of evidence of NFL officials breaking the rules and inflating balls to an illegal 16 PSI.

Again, why no Aaron Rodgers outrage? Why nobody calling for his head?

Because I'm sure when asked he'd willingly cooperate fully with any NFL investigation.

 

[wizards8507]

Because I'm sure when asked he'd willingly cooperate fully with any NFL investigation.

This is the biggest PR lie that the NFL has been able to spin against Brady. He provided ALL relevant communications to the NFL. Any content that was lost on his phone was personal and private.

 

[gkIrish]

Sorry, you have proof that rogue equipment guys broke the rules? I seem to recall rogue equipment guys inflating or deflating footballs to a league-approved 13 PSI. I can provide plenty of evidence of NFL officials breaking the rules and inflating balls to an illegal 16 PSI.

Again, why no Aaron Rodgers outrage? Why nobody calling for his head?

Bringing the balls into the bathroom was breaking a rule.

 

[irishfan]

"The Patriots" is exactly the brush you need to paint it with though. Or is it just a coincidence that an organization already caught up in a pretty big instance of cheating now has two "rogue" equipment guys breaking the rules?

Is it a coincidence that the NFL/public only seem to care about minor cheating scandals when they involve the Patriots?

The Jets got caught doing the same "Spygate" taping in 2006 and got in no trouble for it, they were just told to stop. The Panthers were caught heating up footballs on the sideline and got a warning. The Chargers put stickem on a towel and got 25k. Rodgers told his guys to over-inflate footballs with the hopes that refs don't notice and everyone laughed it off. The NFL already had to change their football measuring protocol and basically admitted they knew nothing about PSI and they still brought the hammer down. I have a very, very hard time believing the Patriots would have gotten a warning if they had been caught heating up footballs on TV or a minor fine for illegally using stickem. This story was out of control before the NFL even hired Ted Wells because the Patriots were involved. Does anyone remember all the articles and news talking heads saying to suspend Brady for the Super Bowl or to let the Colts go get their butts kicked by the Seahawks instead of letting those cheating Patriots play?

 

[gkIrish]

This is the biggest PR lie that the NFL has been able to spin against Brady. He provided ALL relevant communications to the NFL. Any content that was lost on his phone was personal and private.

He SAYS he provided all relevant communications. The NFL disagrees.

 

[IrishLion]

Sorry, you have proof that rogue equipment guys broke the rules? I seem to recall rogue equipment guys inflating or deflating footballs to a league-approved 13 PSI. I can provide plenty of evidence of NFL officials breaking the rules and inflating balls to an illegal 16 PSI.

Again, why no Aaron Rodgers outrage? Why nobody calling for his head?

Because Rogers ins't part of an organization that got busted for Spygate.

The Patriots don't get the benefit of the doubt anymore. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

The Patriots only seem to be fooling their own fans at this point if you think everything was just fine. Dispute the Wells report all you want, cite the weather, the lockerroom, the ball boy taking a piss break, different gauges, whatever you want.

But some of us aren't stupid enough to disregard the nickname the "Deflator," which had been given to the guy BEFORE this all was an issue, nor are we stupid enough to disregard the fact that it's the Patriots, and that Brady's initial defense was "I don't know anything about ball pressure," or the fact that somebody felt a NOTICEABLE difference in the Patriots game balls to begin with.

 

[Irish Insanity]

He provided ALL relevant communications to the NFL. Any content that was lost on his phone was personal and private.

Says who? Him? His agent? What the fuck else would they say. He doesn't get to decide what is pertinent to the investigation. The investigating parties do. If the defendant had that right in life, our prisons would be empty.

 

[gkIrish]

Sorry, you have proof that rogue equipment guys broke the rules? I seem to recall rogue equipment guys inflating or deflating footballs to a league-approved 13 PSI. I can provide plenty of evidence of NFL officials breaking the rules and inflating balls to an illegal 16 PSI.

Again, why no Aaron Rodgers outrage? Why nobody calling for his head?

1. He wasn't caught in the act of doing anything.
2. He didn't try and overinflate the balls AFTER they were inspected by the officials.
3. He doesn't have a history of cheating.
4. He didn't try and cover anything up.

 

[FrankMA]

So no other texts are relevant that weren't sent directly to those 2 employees? He could've easily had discussions with someone else regarding the situation.

Yes, but I would assume he would also talk to the two employees about any situation regarding the footballs since they were, after all, in charge of the footballs. I don't think he would talk to his wife, his mother-in-law, his doctor, his girl friend, his barber, or anyone else he knows and say anything he wouldn't discuss with them about these footballs.

 

[wizards8507]

Because Rogers ins't part of an organization that got busted for Spygate.

The Patriots don't get the benefit of the doubt anymore. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

The Patriots only seem to be fooling their own fans at this point if you think everything was just fine. Dispute the Wells report all you want, cite the weather, the lockerroom, the ball boy taking a piss break, different gauges, whatever you want.

But some of us aren't stupid enough to disregard the nickname the "Deflator," which had been given to the guy BEFORE this all was an issue, nor are we stupid enough to disregard the fact that it's the Patriots, and that Brady's initial defense was "I don't know anything about ball pressure," or the fact that somebody felt a NOTICEABLE difference in the Patriots game balls to begin with.

You sound exactly like every single person out there who thinks Notre Dame football covered up a rape (causing the victim's suicide), murdered a student manager, and made up a fake dead girlfriend to help a Heisman candidacy.

 

[FrankMA]

1. He wasn't caught in the act of doing anything.
2. He didn't try and overinflate the balls AFTER they were inspected by the officials.
3. He doesn't have a history of cheating.
4. He didn't try and cover anything up.

The same can be said of Tom Brady and the Patriots.

 

[gkIrish]

The same can be said of Tom Brady and the Patriots.

dude....

 

[gkIrish]

You sound exactly like every single person out there who thinks Notre Dame football covered up a rape (causing the victim's suicide), murdered a student manager, and made up a fake dead girlfriend to help a Heisman candidacy.

What would have to happen for you to stop defending the Patriots?

Video of Brady inserting a pin into a ball? Robert Kraft admitting he slept with the Deflator to get him to help Tom out? I honestly think you'd find an excuse or explanation for everything including comparing this situation to an alleged rape cover-up.

If you flip the argument you just made, it follows that if ND covered up a rape, murdered a student manager, and made up a fake dead girlfriend, then the Patriots also cheated. That's basically what you just said in reverse.

 

[FrankMA]

dude....

The same can be said for Tom Brady anyway!

 

[connor_in]

is it just me or is this thread basically...


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Y4aHx6BaD5Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[gkIrish]

This new theory deserves its own post because I want to remember it forever:

The majority of the nation believes ND covered up a rape and suicide and murdered a student. Most Notre Dame fans do not believe this to be true.

The majority of the nation believes the Patriots and/or Brady cheated in some way. Most Patriots fans do not believe this to be true.

ND fans are right about ND not raping and murdering. Therefore the nation was wrong.

Because the nation was wrong about ND, they are wrong about the Patriots. #PatriotFanTheory

 

[irishfan]

What would have to happen for you to stop defending the Patriots?

Video of Brady inserting a pin into a ball? Robert Kraft admitting he slept with the Deflator to get him to help Tom out? I honestly think you'd find an excuse or explanation for everything including comparing this situation to an alleged rape cover-up.

If you flip the argument you just made, it follows that if ND covered up a rape, murdered a student manager, and made up a fake dead girlfriend, then the Patriots also cheated. That's basically what you just said in reverse.

For me, I would need actual proof. I don't need the Wells Report ignoring the only texts that mention PSI, the Wells Report failing to prove the footballs fell outside what the Ideal Gas Law predicted, the false media leaks, the "independent" investigator citing attorney-client privilege to hurt the Brady appeal, etc.

Again, the NFL has an authoritarian leading their discipline system. A guy who 100% lied about the Ray Rice video and then refused to hand over his cell phone for the Mueller Report on it. And we're supposed to blindly believe him?