Stolen Valor / Disrespecting the American Flag

[bkess8]

And a gator sailor to boot. We take the Marines to and from the Sandbox.

The BEST kind of Sailor in my opinion!

 

[GDomer09]

Kmoose -
Why bring this Flag code up as if it's a reason any flags have been burned on the news and social media lately???

This is about people burning perfectly well preserved flags for no good reason but hate and stupidity.

I KNOW IT'S CURRENTLY A RIGHT WE HAVE, I LIKE OUR RIGHTS AND LOVE THE PEOPLE WHO FOUGHT FOR THEM!!!!

Sactown -
First off why are you taking such offence to me stating that this (just burning the flag) is the dumbest thing to argue about being a right to begin with. Did you serve and fight for our country so I can burn a flag? I know you didn't. You fought for our rights and for our freedoms to do various things this particular item isn't even on your top 100,000 list. Why fight with me or take what I'm saying as a slant on what you fought for, just so we can keep something so heinous a right?

Why are people acting as if this should remain a right even though they can't identify any good reason to burn an American Flag. When is it ever the right thing to do (outside of respecting an old tattered flag by burning it)? If no one thinks it’s right, it's not. If it's not right why allow it?

 

[kmoose]

And a gator sailor to boot. We take the Marines to and from the Sandbox.

A fine and noble profession. My brother is a plank owner on the Wasp (LHD-1).

 

[Andy in Sactown]

GD09, I think we're just going to have to disagree on this issue. And you're right, I didn't raise my hand and take an oath to defend a symbol. I had my own reasons. But that symbol, our flag, represents more than any one thing. It represents us, our constitutional values, our cultures and most importantly OUR FREEDOM.

How you can criminalize an expression of freedom, however hateful or misguided, on a symbol that means freedom to people here and around the world is just beyond me.

 

[kmoose]

Kmoose -
Why bring this Flag code up as if it's a reason any flags have been burned on the news and social media lately???

This is about people burning perfectly well preserved flags for no good reason but hate and stupidity.

I KNOW IT'S CURRENTLY A RIGHT WE HAVE, I LIKE OUR RIGHTS AND LOVE THE PEOPLE WHO FOUGHT FOR THEM!!!

I brought it up because it directly refutes the following erroneous statement:

There is never a reasonable excuse to burn the flag...

It was not intended to attack you or even to disagree with your larger premise that people should not be allowed to burn the flag. I feel the same way. But the Supreme Court has ruled that the law allows them to do so. As to why it is allowed when no one thinks it's right? I don't know. My opinion has never been solicited, by either Congress or the Supreme Court, on the matter.

 

[greyhammer90]

When is it ever the right thing to do? If no one thinks it’s right, it's not. If it's not right why allow it?

What you're advocating is a tyranny of the majority. "We all don't like it, we think it's bad, so we should ban it because it's a "bad" right." This is exactly why we call these things "rights", so that they can't be taken away by a sense of political correctness or the powerful majority.

There are tons of good reasons to burn the flag without wanting America to "burn". A person who thinks the government is currently violating the Constitution through the Patriot Act could potentially burn the flag in a public place to symbolically show that the government is no longer a fundamentally American one. There are tons of good examples of this. Also, as this thread has demonstrated, much like using expletives or shocking imagery, flag burning is practically a good way to get more eyes on your cause or political message.

This obviously offends you and you seem to view this as an insult to your service. But as has been said in countless threads on here, being offended is a common consequence of living in a free society.

 

[wizards8507]

As to why it is allowed when no one thinks it's right? I don't know.

The importance of protecting liberty is not so that it is preserved in the black-and-white cases, but so that the government can't impose its will on the people for issues in various shades of gray. Nobody thinks it's right to burn the flag, we get that. Nobody thinks it's right to start a white supremacy group, we get that. But what if a Republican president tried to make it illegal to talk about global warming? Or if a Democrat president tried to force the Catholic Church to perform same-sex marriages? Are those things really that far out of the realm of possibility? Very few things are black and white in this world. As long as no act of violence is being committed against a victim, we should preserve liberty as much as possible. Otherwise, what we're free to do and what we're prohibited from doing on threat of imprisonment can change with the whims of whoever holds power at a given time.

 

[greyhammer90]

Maybe we should do the 5 why's here until we get the answer?

Why do they think it's right?

Texas v. Johnson - "f there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable."

From Kennedy's concurrence: "Though symbols often are what we ourselves make of them, the flag is constant in expressing beliefs Americans share, beliefs in law and peace and that freedom which sustains the human spirit. The case here today forces recognition of the costs to which those beliefs commit us. It is poignant but fundamental that the flag protects those who hold it in contempt."

 

[GDomer09]

GD09, I think we're just going to have to disagree on this issue. And you're right, I didn't raise my hand and take an oath to defend a symbol. I had my own reasons. But that symbol, our flag, represents more than any one thing. It represents us, our constitutional values, our cultures and most importantly OUR FREEDOM.

How you can criminalize an expression of freedom, however hateful or misguided, on a symbol that means freedom to people here and around the world is just beyond me.

Lol... yet you stated in your question why we shouldn't!!!!!!!!

We stand for Freedom. Our Flag stands for Freedom here and even across the world.

To burn the flag is to burn Freedom, to hate Freedom and everything that it stands for?

Church congregations don't allow for crosses to be burned in there house so why as a Freedom congregation should we allow the burning of a flag in ours?

We don't have the freedom to drink or smoke wherever we want. We don't have the right to run around nude wherever we please. We don't have the right to go into a church and yell out satanic things without being removed. There are plenty of freedoms that are limited. Why not make something so obvious like the burning of Freedom one of them.

 

[GDomer09]

Texas v. Johnson - "f there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable."

From Kennedy's concurrence: "Though symbols often are what we ourselves make of them, the flag is constant in expressing beliefs Americans share, beliefs in law and peace and that freedom which sustains the human spirit. The case here today forces recognition of the costs to which those beliefs commit us. It is poignant but fundamental that the flag protects those who hold it in contempt."

Tell that to the Christian cake makers who were forced to bake a cake for a homosexual couple.

Tell that to the LGBT crowd still waiting to be legally married.

Tell that to all the Pot smokers who are just looking for that legal high.

These laws were all put in place because of the majority and they're slowly changing due to the majority.

Having beef with the gov't is not a good reason to burn the flag, you're still free and better off than 90% of earths population. Even if you didn't feel like you were getting your freedoms, do you burn the flag (freedom) to get freedom?

 

[Huntr]

It's almost like churches and governments fill different roles.

 

[greyhammer90]

Tell that to the Christian cake makers who were forced to bake a cake for a homosexual couple.

Tell that to the LGBT crowd still waiting to be legally married.

Tell that to all the Pot smokers who are just looking for that legal high.

These laws were all put in place because of the majority and they're slowly changing due to the majority.

Why stop there? Tell that to the guys who want to drink and drive legally.

You're conflating two totally different things. At this point (probably going to change this summer with the USSC's coming gay marriage decision) none of these laws violate our rights under our interpretation of the Constitution. Laws are allowed to reduce some freedoms. That's obvious and no one's arguing against it. You're arguing for a law that is understood to be an unconstitutional violation of free speech. This is MUCH more damaging to the flag than some random johnny deciding to burn it.

Having beef with the gov't is not a good reason to burn the flag, you're still free and better off than 90% of earths population.

I don't need to compare myself to the rest of the world to get pissed off or protest at my government. If I'm being denied my rights as an American, I'll peacefully protest using whatever works. Flag burning should certainly be in the arsenal for those who wish to use it.

Even if you didn't feel like you were getting your freedoms, do you burn the flag (freedom) to get freedom?

I don't know what to say to this. If you honestly think the flag=freedom I can't help you. That's as nonsensical as saying that the statute of liberty = liberty. If every single American flag in existence today suddenly spontaneously-combusted, it wouldn't affect the actual day to day nature/motivations/values/principles of our country in the slightest. It's a symbol of the whole, nothing more. You could replace it with any item or image and it would be the exact same.

 

[Fbolt]

what one calls nonsensical another calls serious f-ing business.

 

[kmoose]

Texas v. Johnson - "f there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable."

From Kennedy's concurrence: "Though symbols often are what we ourselves make of them, the flag is constant in expressing beliefs Americans share, beliefs in law and peace and that freedom which sustains the human spirit. The case here today forces recognition of the costs to which those beliefs commit us. It is poignant but fundamental that the flag protects those who hold it in contempt."

Why do you think it is illegal to kill a bald eagle?

 

[GoIrish41]

Why do you think it is illegal to kill a bald eagle?

Up until a few years ago they were an endangered species.

 

[wizards8507]

Why stop there? Tell that to the guys who want to drink and drive legally.

That's not the same thing at all. Drunk driving puts you at a substantially increased risk of harming someone and harm to others is the very basis wherein certain liberties are sacrificed in a civilized society.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[Huntr]

Why do you think it is illegal to kill a bald eagle?

Just FYI, the Bald Eagle Act of 1940 also protects golden eagles which are not symbols of our country.

 

[kmoose]

Just FYI, the Bald Eagle Act of 1940 also protects golden eagles which are not symbols of our country.

Just an FYI, the Golden Eagle was not added to the Bald Eagle Protection Act of 1940 until 1962. It became, and remains, illegal to take a Bald Eagle because it is a symbol of our country.

 

[Irish YJ]

Up until a few years ago they were an endangered species.

The original act was due to the symbolism. If it were just an endangered species issue, the FWS would be the simple play. By the way, the FWS has removed the Bald Eagle from the endangered list, but the 1940 act is still in place.

Just FYI, the Bald Eagle Act of 1940 also protects golden eagles which are not symbols of our country.

The Golden Eagle, while not an official American symbol, is a Native American symbol. It is also the national symbol of Mexico and several other countries including Germany, Albania, and I believe Egypt.

 

[pkt77242]

Just an FYI, the Golden Eagle was not added to the Bald Eagle Protection Act of 1940 until 1962. It became, and remains, illegal to take a Bald Eagle because it is a symbol of our country.

Yeah but an animal is different. Also killing living things isn't free speech.

 

[Irish YJ]

Yeah but an animal is different. Also killing living things isn't free speech.

Burning a flag is not "speech". It could be an expression, but it is not speech.

 

[pkt77242]

Burning a flag is not "speech". It could be an expression, but it is not speech.

It is considered symbolic speech.

Symbolic speech is a legal term in United States law used to describe actions that purposefully and discernibly convey a particular message or statement to those viewing it.

 

[greyhammer90]

That's not the same thing at all. Drunk driving puts you at a substantially increased risk of harming someone and harm to others is the very basis wherein certain liberties are sacrificed in a civilized society.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

My point wasn't that they are illegal for the same reason. It was that all laws on some level restrict freedom. You can't just bring up other laws that restrict a bunch of different behaviors as support for your law that clearly violates free speech.

 

[Irish YJ]

It is considered symbolic speech.

yes, symbolic speech, which I might add was not added by the original framers.
a lot of debate around that topic as well. as I understand it, symbolic speech is referred to as non-verbal expression in the actual law definition.

 

[Irish YJ]

Yeah but an animal is different. Also killing living things isn't free speech.

Could be symbolic speech, or non-verbal expression?

 

[Huntr]

Just an FYI, the Golden Eagle was not added to the Bald Eagle Protection Act of 1940 until 1962. It became, and remains, illegal to take a Bald Eagle because it is a symbol of our country.

I know. I'm wondering which hair, exactly, are you trying to split? Because the golden eagle isn't a symbol of our country yet is protected under the same act.

 

[Irish YJ]

The original act was due to the symbolism. If it were just an endangered species issue, the FWS would be the simple play. By the way, the FWS has removed the Bald Eagle from the endangered list, but the 1940 act is still in place.





The Golden Eagle, while not an official American symbol, is a Native American symbol. It is also the national symbol of Mexico and several other countries including Germany, Albania, and I believe Egypt.

I know. I'm wondering which hair, exactly, are you trying to split? Because the golden eagle isn't a symbol of our country yet is protected under the same act.

see above

 

[Huntr]

The flag should be treated as a living thing

 

[Irish YJ]

see above

and below

Golden eagle[edit]

Golden eagle
The golden eagle is used as a national symbol in Mexico and in many countries; it symbolizes many cultures and traditions in a various societies. It also symbolizes other countries such as Albania, Germany, Austria, Mexico, and Kazakhstan. The Hopi tribe removes nestlings, raise them, and sacrifice them once they are mature. In 1986, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have issued a permit allowing the tribe to continue their activities legally. The golden eagle symbolizes many values such as grace, power, and magisterial wilderness. In North America, it is the largest bird of prey with physical features of dark brown with lighter golden-brown plumage. It is known as a mountain bird, which travels in open landscapes taken over by short vegetation. An example of this would be western part of the United States, Alaska, Northwestern Europe, Japan, eastern Siberia, etc. In the Western United States, the golden eagles were mainly found in forest areas, including tundra, shrub lands, grasslands, coniferous forests, and farmland. The eagles reside in areas where the human population is very few. The mortality of these birds is due to extensive land use and the attacks from ranchers.[7][8]

 

[dshans]

This has gotten farging nertz!

Oh, wait, this is The Lep Lounge so I can cut loose. This is fucking nuts.

Let the bright flames of liberty light the darkness.

When all is said and done, symbols tend toward artifice. Intended to inspire but also available to enflame.

Once again:

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and –

I see my light come shining ...

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