Stolen Valor / Disrespecting the American Flag

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Abridging peoples right to not be harmed based on freedom of expression is the same, no matter the level of violence.

"Stop being so sensitive."

Do as I say, not say as I do.

Good to know: Shooting someone and punching someone are the same if they are done to suppress freedom of speech or expression.

I'm actually not sensitive to this, if you look at my first post: I believe people should be able to burn a flag but it sure seems ridiculous. This is the country that protects your right to do that very act. That seems like the true irony, no?

But continue on with the empty rhetoric equating Muhammad cartoons to flag-burning (despite the fact that our country protects both).

 

[ACamp1900]

Question, if someone (adult, not child) were to dress as, idk, say a medal of honor winner for a Halloween party is it still illegal??? I'm honestly curious if adults unknowingly incriminate themselves on Halloween as I'm sure many do this for that one occasion.

 

[pkt77242]

Tell that to people who are killed, oh wait.




Yes, people take their country much more seriously than an religion but guess what, they are both still protected. What you and he are both attempting to do is guilt people into believing these two things are equal.

This is our country and some people believe an unpatriotic act deserves an ass-kicking, they feel the same about protestors at military funerals. This has to do with respect for the place in which you live.

Separation of Church and State. People don't give a flying F&*k if you want to draw Muhammad or Christ cartoons, both are permitted and few are willing to dole out an ass-kicking for that free speech.

They are willing to curb-stomp your a$$ if you don't offer the proper respect to the country whose borders you reside in.

Real irony would be a christian blowing up an abortion clinic and everyone jumping on here to say, "they deserved it". Which would never happen so we have to fish for something that fits the narrative of 'Muricans hate other people or some similar line of BS>

What does separation of church and state have to do with this? Burning a flag and drawing a cartoon of Muhammed are both free speech issues, and should be treated the same. They are both things that I disagree with but I wholeheartedly believe are a persons right to do.

The whole curbstomping them is very juvenile. Violence to stop people from free speech is horrible. People get upset over people wanting to cause violence for their religion but threatening people with violence for free speech against the country is ok?

Also most people who are very religious care just as much about their religion (if not more) then they do about their own country. Now they generally (not all) could give a shit about other religions.

Also what is up with you lately, you seem to be posting much more aggressively lately?

 

[AdmiralBackhand]

Why would you want to pretend to be in the military? Sales tax discount on your lunch?

 

[pkt77242]

I would definitely disagree with' all violence is the same'... punching someone in the face for being a jackass is quite a bit different than blasting the life out of them with an AR over the same thing.

Agreed, but is violence to suppress free speech ever ok? That is more of the point. Not that they are the same, just that violence to silence someones free speech is always wrong. Of course there is different levels of violence.

 

[ACamp1900]

Agreed, but is violence to suppress free speech ever ok? That is more of the point. Not that they are the same, just that violence to silence someones free speech is always wrong. Of course there is different levels of violence.

I guess I would view a punch to the face as less of an attempt to silence someone as pumping 10 rounds into them... lol, but I do get your point, and agree for the most part... I was responding more specifically to the statement by Golden, which I put in quotes.

 

[pumpdog20]

Question, if someone (adult, not child) were to dress as, idk, say a medal of honor winner for a Halloween party is it still illegal??? I'm honestly curious if adults unknowingly incriminate themselves on Halloween as I'm sure many do this for that one occasion.

Only if they try to benefit from saying they have the medal of honor. The 2013 act was amended from the 2005 act, where the older version made it illegal for simply wearing the medals.

 

[ACamp1900]

Only if they try to benefit from saying they have the medal of honor. The 2013 act was amended from the 2005 act, where the older version made it illegal for simply wearing the medals.

That's good to know, full honesty, I am pretty disgusted by stolen valor as discussed here but being a big Halloween guy I'm pretty sure I wouldn't even think twice if someone showed up like that to a costume party... pretty special circumstance there.

 

[ulukinatme]

Question, if someone (adult, not child) were to dress as, idk, say a medal of honor winner for a Halloween party is it still illegal??? I'm honestly curious if adults unknowingly incriminate themselves on Halloween as I'm sure many do this for that one occasion.

I imagine if you're dressing up for Halloween and not intentionally trying to pose as a service member to receive benefits you're fine. I haven't read the laws on it though.

Why would you want to pretend to be in the military? Sales tax discount on your lunch?

Among other things. Malls and other places of business will often offer discounts to service members. There's other benefits too, like putang -

 

[GoldenDome]

I would definitely disagree with' all violence is the same'... punching someone in the face for being a jackass is quite a bit different than blasting the life out of them with an AR over the same thing.

The context was that "all violence is the same" meaning intention is to inflict harm.

Sure the degree is different, but the intention is the same.

 

[ACamp1900]

The context was that "all violence is the same" meaning intention is to inflict harm.

Sure the degree is different, but the intention is the same.

I wouldn't even agree with that... the degree of harm dished out is so drastically different... just saying.

 

[Circa]

I could be called out for this but I don't agree.

Don't get me wrong. I hate seeing people burn the flag but I like more that we live in a country that someone can do it. Not being able to do something like burning a flag is a little too close of a comparison to what exists in other nations for my comfort.

When I viewed Mexican students burning flags in California, I did not want to punch them. I simply became indifferent to their concerns. I feel no sympathy when someone gets deported...regardless of the sob story that goes along with it.

As for the stolen valor, I have never served so I can't speak to the feelings of someone who has. That said, I say thank you when I see someone in uniform and do things like buy them a drink when there is an opportunity. If someone is pathetic enough to trick me, and they could because I don't know jack about what a uniform should look like, I just chalk it up to them being pathetic. I just keep on saying thanks and buying drinks to ensure that the men and women who do serve are shown the respect they deserve.

If you served and this offended you...I'm sorry. No offense is intended.

Gotta agree with you on this one Dale. This is a search for attention and acceptance. It's a damn shame but there are many people living falsely within other's lives, the antidote is far from ass beatings. Humility is a search but within ourselves to the real cause of mental illness.

 

[kmoose]

From what I can tell is that when liberals pointed out how insensitive it was to draw pictures of Muhammad, people kept telling them to stop being so sensitive, but when it comes to burning the flag the same people are outraged. He seems to be pointing out the hypocrisy of it.

I don't think there is any hypocrisy at all. No one has ever suggested that you should not be able to draw a picture of the flag. That's a pretty benign act. Hell, I wouldn't imagine too many people would get too wound up about someone drawing a picture of a burning flag.

But actually burning the flag would be a pretty malevolent act against one of the most recognizable symbols of America.

I don't see where simply drawing a picture of Mohammed is malevolent.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Question, if someone (adult, not child) were to dress as, idk, say a medal of honor winner for a Halloween party is it still illegal??? I'm honestly curious if adults unknowingly incriminate themselves on Halloween as I'm sure many do this for that one occasion.

Surely common sense should reign here and the intent and behavior of the person is what counts. Sort of like impersonating a police officer, which is quite illegal. Everyone understands the difference between doing so for Halloween or a party, and doing so in order to stop cars, frisk people, detain someone, or otherwise maliciously use a law enforcement officer's authority. Somebody dressed up for a party as a soldier is a LONG way from actually impersonating a soldier in order to gain respect, attention, or free drinks.

 

[pkt77242]

I don't think there is any hypocrisy at all. No one has ever suggested that you should not be able to draw a picture of the flag. That's a pretty benign act. Hell, I wouldn't imagine too many people would get too wound up about someone drawing a picture of a burning flag.

But actually burning the flag would be a pretty malevolent act against one of the most recognizable symbols of America.

I don't see where simply drawing a picture of Mohammed is malevolent.

Seriously? Just as you (and many Americans) view the burning of the U.S. flag as a malevolent act, Muslims feel the same way about the drawing of Mohammed. If you can't understand that then I don't know what to tell you. You may think of it as a simple thing, but to them it means a lot, just as to some people they may view the burning of the flag as a small issue but you might take grave offense because of it.

 

[GoIrish41]

Seriously? Just as you (and many Americans) view the burning of the U.S. flag as a malevolent act, Muslims feel the same way about the drawing of Mohammed. If you can't understand that then I don't know what to tell you. You may think of it as a simple thing, but to them it means a lot, just as to some people they may view the burning of the flag as a small issue but you might take grave offense because of it.

Que the then they can move back to the Middle East comments

 

[Irish YJ]

The flag is a symbol of Americanism. Pretty simple to me, if you burn the flag, you don't like America. If you don't like America, GTFO and live somewhere else. Pretty sure those people that burn the flag wouldn't be happy wherever they go. Just malcontents that feel the need to push the envelope and seek attention.

Stolen valor... It disgusts me. Probably not the lowest of the low, but I struggle to understand how people can stoop that low. If they get punched in the face, I'm perfectly OK with it.

Serious question to the military folks:
Back during DStorm, my best friend (Marines) gave me one of his fatigue sets (no symbols, etc). I've cherished them all these years and wear them once or twice a year hunting or trout fishing in the mountains. Is this OK, or is it disrespectful. I've never really pondered the question until this thread.

 

[Irish YJ]

Seriously? Just as you (and many Americans) view the burning of the U.S. flag as a malevolent act, Muslims feel the same way about the drawing of Mohammed. If you can't understand that then I don't know what to tell you. You may think of it as a simple thing, but to them it means a lot, just as to some people they may view the burning of the flag as a small issue but you might take grave offense because of it.

I'd be happy to put the flag burners in a room with a few hard core military guys, and the cartoonist in a room with some devout Muslims. Comes down to respecting others (assuming they deserve that respect).

 

[Andy in Sactown]

The flag is a symbol of Americanism. Pretty simple to me, if you burn the flag, you don't like America. If you don't like America, GTFO and live somewhere else. Pretty sure those people that burn the flag wouldn't be happy wherever they go. Just malcontents that feel the need to push the envelope and seek attention.

Stolen valor... It disgusts me. Probably not the lowest of the low, but I struggle to understand how people can stoop that low. If they get punched in the face, I'm perfectly OK with it.

Serious question to the military folks:
Back during DStorm, my best friend (Marines) gave me one of his fatigue sets (no symbols, etc). I've cherished them all these years and wear them once or twice a year hunting or trout fishing in the mountains. Is this OK, or is it disrespectful. I've never really pondered the question until this thread.

If he removed all military emblems/patches/name-tape that sounds totally fine. I still wear my cover-alls when working on my car (think a giant "onesie"). Just removed the "US Navy" and my Petty Officer 2nd Class crows from my collar. I kept the name-tape, but would remove it before giving it to anyone else; my brother included, even though we have the same last name (as to not give anyone else the idea that he was on active duty).

 

[GoIrish41]

The flag is a symbol of Americanism. Pretty simple to me, if you burn the flag, you don't like America. If you don't like America, GTFO and live somewhere else. Pretty sure those people that burn the flag wouldn't be happy wherever they go. Just malcontents that feel the need to push the envelope and seek attention.

Stolen valor... It disgusts me. Probably not the lowest of the low, but I struggle to understand how people can stoop that low. If they get punched in the face, I'm perfectly OK with it.

Serious question to the military folks:
Back during DStorm, my best friend (Marines) gave me one of his fatigue sets (no symbols, etc). I've cherished them all these years and wear them once or twice a year hunting or trout fishing in the mountains. Is this OK, or is it disrespectful. I've never really pondered the question until this thread.

Not disrespectful to me but some of our soldiers and Marines on here will say my opinion does not count because I was in the Navy. Cool that the fatigues mean so much to you.

 

[pkt77242]

The flag is a symbol of Americanism. Pretty simple to me, if you burn the flag, you don't like America. If you don't like America, GTFO and live somewhere else. Pretty sure those people that burn the flag wouldn't be happy wherever they go. Just malcontents that feel the need to push the envelope and seek attention.

Stolen valor... It disgusts me. Probably not the lowest of the low, but I struggle to understand how people can stoop that low. If they get punched in the face, I'm perfectly OK with it.

Serious question to the military folks:
Back during DStorm, my best friend (Marines) gave me one of his fatigue sets (no symbols, etc). I've cherished them all these years and wear them once or twice a year hunting or trout fishing in the mountains. Is this OK, or is it disrespectful. I've never really pondered the question until this thread.

Not sure if I agree with this. What if you are protesting something the government is doing that you feel is unamerican? For example lets say someone is protesting the NSA spying and burns the flag? Is that unamerican? Or is that person protesting in an appropriate way? What about during Vietnam? Is there never an appropriate time to burn a flag in protest?

I am not saying that there is, it is just something that this thread made me think about. I generally am against burning the flag but this thread is making me wonder if we aren't putting too much emphasis on the flag (almost a form of idol worship) instead of what the flag actually stands for (our freedom). Also if the flag does stand for what the U.S.A. is really about (freedom) then isn't burning the flag in protest of freedom being taken away (say the NSA spying, or if you feel your freedom of religion or free speech is being taken away) an appropriate gesture? More me thinking aloud then saying that we should do it. It just raises some interesting questions.

 

[Irish YJ]

If he removed all military emblems/patches/name-tape that sounds totally fine. I still wear my cover-alls when working on my car (think a giant "onesie"). Just removed the "US Navy" and my Petty Officer 2nd Class crows from my collar. I kept the name-tape, but would remove it before giving it to anyone else; my brother included, even though we have the same last name (as to not give anyone else the idea they were his on active duty).

Thanks Andy. In all seriousness it's one of my favorite and most meaningful possessions. He gave them too me and said "thanks for all the calls and being there". He was one of the guys shelling the airport several days before they announced we were fighting. I would always try to call him when possible from one of our college parties surrounded by our HS classmates. He got a big kick out of being able to talk to so many of us. Big thanks to my mom who cared for those large calling card bills .

 

[Irish YJ]

Not sure if I agree with this. What if you are protesting something the government is doing that you feel is unamerican? For example lets say someone is protesting the NSA spying and burns the flag? Is that unamerican? Or is that person protesting in an appropriate way? What about during Vietnam? Is there never an appropriate time to burn a flag in protest?

I am not saying that there is, it is just something that this thread made me think about. I generally am against burning the flag but this thread is making me wonder if we aren't putting too much emphasis on the flag (almost a form of idol worship) instead of what the flag actually stands for (our freedom). Also if the flag does stand for what the U.S.A. is really about (freedom) then isn't burning the flag in protest of freedom being taken away (say the NSA spying, or if you feel your freedom of religion or free speech is being taken away) an appropriate gesture? More me thinking aloud then saying that we should do it. It just raises some interesting questions.

The flag to me is not a symbol of our government. If you are protesting the government, protest them. The flag to me is a symbol of our nationalism, and of our freedom. Sounds like you are saying if you are unhappy with anything in America (religion, government, NSA, etc) that burning the flag symbolizes protest of losing freedom. I just don't get that logic. If I'm unhappy with someone going on with the Vatican, I wouldn't burn a picture of Christ. I think people see flag burning as a way to shock and get attention. If not, then it's because they don't like America. We can get as deep as we want to on this issue, but IMO, it's simple.

 

[Irish YJ]

The flag to me is not a symbol of our government. If you are protesting the government, protest them. The flag to me is a symbol of our nationalism, and of our freedom. Sounds like you are saying if you are unhappy with anything in America (religion, government, NSA, etc) that burning the flag symbolizes protest of losing freedom. I just don't get that logic. If I'm unhappy with someone going on with the Vatican, I wouldn't burn a picture of Christ. I think people see flag burning as a way to shock and get attention. If not, then it's because they don't like America. We can get as deep as we want to on this issue, but IMO, it's simple.

To add,,, nothing is sacred anymore. That's a problem.

 

[ACamp1900]

To add,,, nothing is sacred anymore. That's a problem.

And there is no place for shame anymore.... Another huge problem IMO.

 

[Irish YJ]

Not disrespectful to me but some of our soldiers and Marines on here will say my opinion does not count because I was in the Navy. Cool that the fatigues mean so much to you.

My father was in the Navy, so don't let anyone give you $hit lol.
Yes, they mean the world to me. It was a pretty rough time for his family and friends knowing he was over there in the midst of combat, especially when things first started. First time my generation experienced it. Knowing him as a meek grade schooler, and to see him grow into the man he came to be, made us all very proud. They hang in my closet next to my suits and sport jackets to this day.

 

[pkt77242]

To add,,, nothing is sacred anymore. That's a problem.

I somewhat disagree. In the U.S. we make changes as needed (yes even to the Constitution), who decides what is sacred? Do we go by your definition of what should be sacred, my definition of what should be sacred, the founders, ACamp's, Whiskeyjack? Should a Christian, or a Jewish person, or a Muslim or even a Mormon decide what is sacred to the U.S. I think the one thing that should be sacred is respect.

And there is no place for shame anymore.... Another huge problem IMO.

This I can mostly agree with.

 

[kmoose]

Seriously? Just as you (and many Americans) view the burning of the U.S. flag as a malevolent act, Muslims feel the same way about the drawing of Mohammed. If you can't understand that then I don't know what to tell you. You may think of it as a simple thing, but to them it means a lot, just as to some people they may view the burning of the flag as a small issue but you might take grave offense because of it.

That's fine. I will refrain from drawing Mohammed while I am in a mosque. And they can refrain from burning the American flag on American soil.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

What does separation of church and state have to do with this? Burning a flag and drawing a cartoon of Muhammed are both free speech issues, and should be treated the same. They are both things that I disagree with but I wholeheartedly believe are a persons right to do.

The whole curbstomping them is very juvenile. Violence to stop people from free speech is horrible. People get upset over people wanting to cause violence for their religion but threatening people with violence for free speech against the country is ok?

Also most people who are very religious care just as much about their religion (if not more) then they do about their own country. Now they generally (not all) could give a shit about other religions.

Also what is up with you lately, you seem to be posting much more aggressively lately?

Suffice it to say, I've just been a pr!ck lately and I'm trying to temper it. I don't know what has drastically changed in my life but I've run into a grey mood where I have less patience and I feel more irritation at the smallest of things (a f&ck!ng internet messageboard of all things).

There is a discontent in me that's been brewing from something that I either haven't identified or that I'm afraid to face. Not sure what it is but it's raining psychic damage down on my life. I can only give an anonymous promise that I'm trying to temper it and get to the bottom of it. My apologies if my responses have been less thoughtful and more aggressive.

I think it's time for me to step away for a bit and get myself back in order.

 

[GoldenDome]

That's fine. I will refrain from drawing Mohammed while I am in a mosque. And they can refrain from burning the American flag on American soil.

Seems reasonable. Too bad the people don't have a trace of tolerance to refrain from such nonsense.