Police State USA

NDgradstudent

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Tracking violent crime from the 60's to present day is bound to be fruitless because there was this tiny little shift in our economy during that period (the move from being an expanding industrial economy that put a premium on unskilled labor to being an information based economy that put a premium on education). Crime has fallen pretty dramatically in the last 20 years despite relatively little economic disruption in that period- is there a matching rise in the rate of 2 parent households?

Anyway, literally nobody is saying that the downfall of the traditional family structure has not exacerbated the problem (for poor Americans in general, not just blacks). However, unless you come with solutions, that's not a very helpful line of analysis. To run with RhodeIrish's analogy, it's like a doctor looking at a patient and saying, "well his problem is that he got his ass kicked" and walking away.

The out-of-wedlock birth rate has risen pretty consistently, every year since the early 1960s, for every race. So you are right that the relative drop in crime is not attributable to that. It is probably partially attributable to the increase in incarceration. I guess the question is whether poverty, racism, etc., cause out of wedlock births, or the other way around. It does occur to me that having a child out of wedlock is still a choice, however much pressure there is to have such a child, whatever conditions there are, etc. I certainly think it is preferable to have a child out of wedlock than to have an abortion (another theory about the crime drop, by the way, and one which I doubt but which many liberals accept and cite as a reason for legal abortion).

There are many countries with far more generous welfare states than ours which still have high out of wedlock birth rates but where (liberals will argue) the children are not harmed. These countries tend to be far smaller and more ethnically and socioeconomically homogenous than America. Furthermore, what constitutes harm is a relative thing because even the countries commonly cited (usually Scandinavian) have seen a rise in the out of wedlock birth rate in the past several decades.

I of course agree the issue is complicated. We disagree about the primary driver. For me, the key historical fact continues to be that prior to the 1960s, black crime was lower, even as poverty, segregation, racism, etc., were higher. Significantly, the number of blacks being raised in two parent families was also much higher prior to the 1960s than today. Something was different then, but it was not more welfare, or racial tolerance, or funding for largely or entirely black public schools. I do not mean to romanticize the past, as conservatives are often accused of doing, but only to emphasize that in my view we have chosen the wrong future in many ways.

I should also add that I am not saying that blacks are uniquely "irresponsible" by having kids out of wedlock. Most groups have seen a major increase in illegitimacy, but it has been particularly high among blacks. It has also affected whites, especially poorer whites.
 

kmoose

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Here's something to remember, down the road:

The black State's Attorney chose to charge the driver of the van with a form of murder that requires proving intent to kill(according to CNN). I can't see any way that they will be able to prove that the driver of the van set out to intentionally kill anyone. So when that guy gets acquitted, and we hear about how it is just another example of white people protecting other white people at the expense of the black community, I would hope that people will remember that the choice of what charges to bring was made by a black woman, not some middle-aged white man.
 

NDohio

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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/opinion/david-brooks-the-nature-of-poverty.html?_r=0

Lately it seems as though every few months there’s another urban riot and the nation turns its attention to urban poverty. And in the midst of every storm, there are people crying out that we should finally get serious about this issue. This time it was Jon Stewart who spoke for many when he said: “And you just wonder sometimes if we’re spending a trillion dollars to rebuild Afghanistan’s schools, like, we can’t build a little taste down Baltimore way. Like is that what’s really going on?”

The audience applauded loudly, and it’s a nice sentiment, but it’s not really relevant.

The problem is not lack of attention, and it’s not mainly lack of money. Since 1980 federal antipoverty spending has exploded. As Robert Samuelson of The Washington Post has pointed out, in 2013 the federal government spent nearly $14,000 per poor person. If you simply took that money and handed it to the poor, a family of four would have a household income roughly twice the poverty rate.

Yet over the last 30 years the poverty rate has scarcely changed.

In addition, American public spending on schools is high by global standards. As Peter Wehner pointed out in Commentary, in 2011 Baltimore ranked second among the nation’s largest 100 school districts in how much it spent per pupil, $15,483 per year.

The Sandtown-Winchester area of Baltimore, where Freddie Gray lived, has not lacked for attention either. In the late 1980s, Baltimore’s then-Mayor Kurt Schmoke decided he would make the neighborhood a model of urban restoration. He gathered public and private actors like developer James Rouse and Habitat for Humanity. They raised more than $130 million and poured it into everything from new homes, new school curriculums, new job training programs and new health care centers. Townhouses were built for $87,000 and sold to residents for $37,000.

The money was not totally wasted. By 2000, the poverty rate in the area had dropped by 4.4 percent. The share of residents who lived in owner-occupied homes had risen by 8.3 percent, according to a thorough study by The Abell Foundation. But the area was not transformed. Today there are no grocery stores in the neighborhood and no restaurants. Crime is rampant. Unemployment is high.

Despite all these efforts, there are too many young men leading lives like the one Gray led. He was apparently a kind-hearted, respectful, popular man, but he was not on the path to upward mobility. He won a settlement for lead paint poisoning. According to The Washington Post, his mother was a heroin addict who, in a deposition, said she couldn’t read. In one court filing, it was reported that Gray was four grade levels behind in reading. He was arrested more than a dozen times.

It is wrong to say federal efforts to tackle poverty have been a failure. The $15 trillion spent by the government over the past half-century has improved living standards and eased burdens for millions of poor people. But all that money and all those experiments have not integrated people who live in areas of concentrated poverty into the mainstream economy. Often, the money has served as a cushion, not a ladder.

Saying we should just spend more doesn’t really cut it. What’s needed is a phase shift in how we think about poverty. Renewal efforts in Sandtown-Winchester prioritized bricks and mortar. But the real barriers to mobility are matters of social psychology, the quality of relationships in a home and a neighborhood that either encourage or discourage responsibility, future-oriented thinking, and practical ambition.

Jane Jacobs once wrote that a healthy neighborhood is like a ballet, a series of intricate interactions in which people are regulating each other and encouraging certain behaviors.

In a fantastic interview that David Simon of “The Wire” gave to Bill Keller for The Marshall Project, he describes that, even in poorest Baltimore, there once were informal rules of behavior governing how cops interacted with citizens — when they’d drag them in and when they wouldn’t, what curse words you could say to a cop and what you couldn’t. But then the code dissolved. The informal guardrails of life were gone, and all was arbitrary harshness.

That’s happened across many social spheres — in schools, families and among neighbors. Individuals are left without the norms that middle-class people take for granted. It is phenomenally hard for young people in such circumstances to guide themselves.

Yes, jobs are necessary, but if you live in a neighborhood, as Gray did, where half the high school students don’t bother to show up for school on a given day, then the problems go deeper.

The world is waiting for a thinker who can describe poverty through the lens of social psychology. Until the invisible bonds of relationships are repaired, life for too many will be nasty, brutish, solitary and short.
 

pkt77242

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Here's something to remember, down the road:

The black State's Attorney chose to charge the driver of the van with a form of murder that requires proving intent to kill(according to CNN). I can't see any way that they will be able to prove that the driver of the van set out to intentionally kill anyone. So when that guy gets acquitted, and we hear about how it is just another example of white people protecting other white people at the expense of the black community, I would hope that people will remember that the choice of what charges to bring was made by a black woman, not some middle-aged white man.

It depends in Maryland can you be found guilty of a lesser form of murder? For example in some states if you try a person for first degree murder, the jury has the option of finding them not guilty of that but guilty of 2nd degree murder or manslaughter, etc.
 

kmoose

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It depends in Maryland can you be found guilty of a lesser form of murder? For example in some states if you try a person for first degree murder, the jury has the option of finding them not guilty of that but guilty of 2nd degree murder or manslaughter, etc.

Good point. But the fact still remains that black racists will probably be paraded all over the news, talking about how black people can't get justice, even when charges are filed, because the system waters down the justice for white police officers. No mention is likely to be made of the fact that perhaps the original charges were not appropriate.
 

Bubbles

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Ceasar Goodson: 2nd degree depraved heart murder, involuntary manslaughter, 2nd degree negligent assault

William Porter: involuntary manslaughter, assault in the 2nd degree, misconduct in office

Brian Rice: involuntary manslaughter, assault in the 2nd degree, misconduct in office, false imprisonment

Edward Nero: Intentional assault in the 2nd degree, 2nd degree negligent assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment

Garrett Miller: Intentional assault in the 2nd degree, 2nd degree negligent assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment

Alicia White: involuntary manslaughter, assault in the 2nd degree, misconduct in office
 

DomerInHappyValley

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Seems like they're saying an exposed bolt in the van caused the spinal injury.
Freddie Gray's death ruled a homicide; 6 Baltimore officers charged
From the video's I've seen he was yelling something wasn't right when they were dragging him to the van. I'm still wondering if they all piled on when they caught up to him. Every time I've seen a police chase end on TV when watching the news or Worlds Wildest Police Videos that's how all chases seem to end. Suspect caught cops coming out of nowhere to pile on.
 

GoIrish41

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Good point. But the fact still remains that black racists will probably be paraded all over the news, talking about how black people can't get justice, even when charges are filed, because the system waters down the justice for white police officers. No mention is likely to be made of the fact that perhaps the original charges were not appropriate.

And their point will have merit because of the BS police investigation leaks that totally ignored the guy's condition before he was placed in the van and suggested that he was trying to hurt himself. Maybe one of the worst cock and bull stories that I have ever seen floated in one of these cases in my life. The police were trying to protect their own, and as their only true connection to anybody in government is usually police officers, this is certainly a catylist for the lack of trust that these "black racists" have with the system. We are only at the beginning of this process and they have plenty of evidence that charges being filed means nothing. Cops who are "under investigation" or "charged" with crimes get away with their crimes more often than not. It is not as if these people don't have cause to be sceptical that the wheels of justice are turning because they have been thrown a bone with charges being filed. They are justifiably angry and they want swift justice, and until they get it they are not likely to suddenly trust that the system is working on their behalf.
 

GoIrish41

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Seems like they're saying an exposed bolt in the van caused the spinal injury.
Freddie Gray's death ruled a homicide; 6 Baltimore officers charged
From the video's I've seen he was yelling something wasn't right when they were dragging him to the van. I'm still wondering if they all piled on when they caught up to him. Every time I've seen a police chase end on TV when watching the news or Worlds Wildest Police Videos that's how all chases seem to end. Suspect caught cops coming out of nowhere to pile on.

This is exactly right. I think this whole notion that his injuries occured in the van is a big load of crap. His legs were dead as they drug him to the van in agony. How do they expect anyone to forget what they saw with their own eyes and pretend that he was "aokay" when he was placed into the van.

Also, why are they putting people in a van without strapping them in when their are exposed bolts sticking into the cabin where they are sitting? Maybe he got a blow to the head when he was jostled around in the van, but that man was hurt really bad before the van ever pulled up to the curb.
 

GoIrish41

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Ceasar Goodson: 2nd degree depraved heart murder, involuntary manslaughter, 2nd degree negligent assault

William Porter: involuntary manslaughter, assault in the 2nd degree, misconduct in office

Brian Rice: involuntary manslaughter, assault in the 2nd degree, misconduct in office, false imprisonment

Edward Nero: Intentional assault in the 2nd degree, 2nd degree negligent assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment

Garrett Miller: Intentional assault in the 2nd degree, 2nd degree negligent assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment

Alicia White: involuntary manslaughter, assault in the 2nd degree, misconduct in office

All of these charges are lesser than murder, which I feel that the public in Baltimore is looking for. As I said in a post above, this whole injury in the van story stinks, and it makes it look like the city is seeking some exceptional degree of justice when they are just setting the conditions for lesser chagres. I fear we have not seen the last of the violence in that city.
 

Bubbles

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All of these charges are lesser than murder, which I feel that the public in Baltimore is looking for. As I said in a post above, this whole injury in the van story stinks, and it makes it look like the city is seeking some exceptional degree of justice when they are just setting the conditions for lesser charges. I fear we have not seen the last of the violence in that city.

It could be a lack of understanding on their part, but there is a sense of excitement and solidarity in Baltimore right now.....not what you are describing....there seems to be hope now, and it makes me more hopefully for the city than I was a few days ago.

Agreed that the story stinks though.


Edit: I wanted to add that the prosecutor leveled the charges she thought she could prove.....so, this may be more of a pragmatic move on her part.
 

GoIrish41

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It could be a lack of understanding on their part, but there is a sense of excitement and solidarity in Baltimore right now.....not what you are describing....there seems to be hope now, and it makes me more hopefully for the city than I was a few days ago.

Agreed that the story stinks though.


Edit: I wanted to add that the prosecutor leveled the charges she thought she could prove.....so, this may be more of a pragmatic move on her part.

I certainly agree with this. She better make those charges stick though, or that sense of excitement and solidarity in Baltimore could take a turn for the worse. I'm still not confident that people are going to be satisfied with those charges. it is asking people to accept something that is contradicted by something they saw with their own eyes and does not seem to confidence inspiring. The weekend is coming. Let's hope the protests stay peaceful.
 

kmoose

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And their point will have merit because of the BS police investigation leaks that totally ignored the guy's condition before he was placed in the van and suggested that he was trying to hurt himself. Maybe one of the worst cock and bull stories that I have ever seen floated in one of these cases in my life. The police were trying to protect their own, and as their only true connection to anybody in government is usually police officers, this is certainly a catylist for the lack of trust that these "black racists" have with the system. We are only at the beginning of this process and they have plenty of evidence that charges being filed means nothing. Cops who are "under investigation" or "charged" with crimes get away with their crimes more often than not. It is not as if these people don't have cause to be sceptical that the wheels of justice are turning because they have been thrown a bone with charges being filed. They are justifiably angry and they want swift justice, and until they get it they are not likely to suddenly trust that the system is working on their behalf.

All of that is anecdotal and irrelevant to THIS case. These guys were charged, and a black State's Attorney is conducting the investigation. She found enough evidence to charge these guys without a Grand Jury indictment, so she and her staff are obviously competent investigators.
 

GoIrish41

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Incorrect. Ceasar Goodson is being charged with murder.

The fact that he is the driver lends credence to the whole injury "occurred in the van " story, which allows people to say things like he was "aokay" when they put him in the van. But you are right. I read through the list too quickly and missed that.

Hey lawyers, what is a "depraved heart murder?" I've never seen that before.
 

GoIrish41

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All of that is anecdotal and irrelevant to THIS case. These guys were charged, and a black State's Attorney is conducting the investigation. She found enough evidence to charge these guys without a Grand Jury indictment, so she and her staff are obviously competent investigators.

You may think it is anecdotal and irrelevant to this case, but I hope the protestors have as nuanced approach to it as you do.
 

wizards8507

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Hey lawyers, what is a "depraved heart murder?" I've never seen that before.
The news articles are reporting that in an unclear way. It's better stylized as depraved-heart murder, aka depraved-indifference. As in "the officer acted with a depraved heart in his disregard for human life." It's kind of like negligent homicide but worse. You weren't trying to kill the guy on purpose per se, but your disregard for human life was such that it's the legal equivalent of if you had.

The fact that he is the driver lends credence to the whole injury "occurred in the van " story, which allows people to say things like he was "aokay" when they put him in the van. But you are right. I read through the list too quickly and missed that.
I think the working theory now is that he wasn't buckled in. And apparently there's a police law that says you must buckle in a suspect when being tranported in one of these police vans. If these reports prove true, I'm pretty much ready to jump in the "police mistreated this guy and that mistreatment resulted in his death" camp. But the "police mistreated this guy even though he was minding his own business and they just wanted to kill a random black person" argument is still crap.
 
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GoIrish41

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Were any of the arresting officers charged with a crime for their treatment of Freddy Gray before he was placed in the van? Sorry, I've just got out of the hospital and have been on pain meds for the past few days and did not see the announcement of the charges? My only knowledge of charges being filed is from D'Squarius Green Jr.'s post above. I'm assuming that some of them were the others who were charged???
 

kmoose

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Were any of the arresting officers charged with a crime for their treatment of Freddy Gray before he was placed in the van? Sorry, I've just got out of the hospital and have been on pain meds for the past few days and did not see the announcement of the charges? My only knowledge of charges being filed is from D'Squarius Green Jr.'s post above. I'm assuming that some of them were the others who were charged???

I would call unlawful arrest a crime for their treatment before they put him in the van.
 

kmoose

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The fact that he is the driver lends credence to the whole injury "occurred in the van " story, which allows people to say things like he was "aokay" when they put him in the van. But you are right. I read through the list too quickly and missed that.

Hey lawyers, what is a "depraved heart murder?" I've never seen that before.

Maybe I have missed it, but I haven't seen anyone trying to advance a narrative of "there was nothing wrong with him before he got in the van". But even if something *was* wrong with him, the ME determined that the fatal injury occurred in the back of the van.
 

GoIrish41

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I would call unlawful arrest a crime for their treatment before they put him in the van.

Good point. :) It would also suggest that he didn't do anything wrong in the first place and that these police officers caused all of this to happen.
 

wizards8507

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Maybe I have missed it, but I haven't seen anyone trying to advance a narrative of "there was nothing wrong with him before he got in the van".
I said that. And CNN reported it. And others.

The initial spin when this whole story broke was that the injury occurred due to a violent takedown or something of the sort. It's a much stronger visual to imagine a cop pounding a man's spine into two pieces than to imagine that same officer simply forgetting to put the guy's seat belt on and then driving over a pothole such that the suspect banged his head.
 

GoIrish41

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I said that. And CNN reported it. And others.

The initial spin when this whole story broke was that the injury occurred due to a violent takedown or something of the sort. It's a much stronger visual to imagine a cop pounding a man's spine into two pieces than to imagine that same officer simply forgetting to put the guy's seat belt on and then driving over a pothole such that the suspect banged his head.

You shouldn't listen to the liberal media. They always have an agenda. :)

Police hurting the guy in the arrest is also much much easier to believe. I'm 50 years old and have been riding in cars all my life, and driving for 43 years (usually without a seatbelt) and have never once broken my neck when going over a pot hole. My kids ride to school on a school bus that doesn't even have seatbelts installed, and they have never reported to me that they broke their neck on the way to school because the bus went over a speed bump too fast. However, I have watched way too many videos in the past few months of police apprehending suspects and exerting an excessive force. So, you can mark me down in the scepticle column when it comes to the idea that this is murder by pot hole.
 

IrishinSyria

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The news articles are reporting that in an unclear way. It's better stylized as depraved-heart murder, aka depraved-indifference. As in "the officer acted with a depraved heart in his disregard for human life." It's kind of like negligent homicide but worse. You weren't trying to kill the guy on purpose per se, but your disregard for human life was such that it's the legal equivalent of if you had.


I think the working theory now is that he wasn't buckled in. And apparently there's a police law that says you must buckle in a suspect when being tranported in one of these police vans. If these reports prove true, I'm pretty much ready to jump in the "police mistreated this guy and that mistreatment resulted in his death" camp. But the "police mistreated this guy even though he was minding his own business and they just wanted to kill a random black person" argument is still crap.


Depraved heart gets to the mental state someone has when they commit a crime. Usually, there are 5 categories:

Purpose- you did exactly what you wanted to do (aimed your gun and shot)
Knowledge- you did something knowing it would result in someone's death, even if that wasn't necessarily your goal
Recklessness- you did something knowing that it would result in a substantial risk that someone's death would result
Negligence- you did something that an objective person would know would result in a substantial risk.
Strict Liability (no mental state required)

Usually, one would need either purpose or knowledge to be charged with murder. However, in cases of extreme recklessness (i.e. russian roulette, throwing a brick off a skyscraper, drunk driving) some jurisdictions allow for "depraved heart recklessness" to cover situations that seem to have been so dangerous that they merit a murder charge.

*Disclaimer: rules are different in every state. I have no idea what the law is in Maryland.
 
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phgreek

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Seems like they're saying an exposed bolt in the van caused the spinal injury.
Freddie Gray's death ruled a homicide; 6 Baltimore officers charged
From the video's I've seen he was yelling something wasn't right when they were dragging him to the van. I'm still wondering if they all piled on when they caught up to him. Every time I've seen a police chase end on TV when watching the news or Worlds Wildest Police Videos that's how all chases seem to end. Suspect caught cops coming out of nowhere to pile on.

No idea if the charges make sense or not. Only the state's attorney knows. I will say though, she didn't make her own job any easier by the manner in which she addressed the protesters. I would think that will be used by defense at some point...SMH. Could have just said allow me to do my job w/o burning shit down please...nope, had to pander. Came off a bit like..."I got you man, don't worry". Won't play well IMHO.
 

DomerInHappyValley

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No idea if the charges make sense or not. Only the state's attorney knows. I will say though, she didn't make her own job any easier by the manner in which she addressed the protesters. I would think that will be used by defense at some point...SMH. Could have just said allow me to do my job w/o burning shit down please...nope, had to pander. Came off a bit like..."I got you man, don't worry". Won't play well IMHO.
I got that exact same impression.
Obviously different fact but, reminds me of when Zimmerman was arrested only after the protests started.
 

Bubbles

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Just watching some of the coverage....it's starting to look (to me) like Gray may have been injured initially when he was subdued, then put in the van, intentionally driven aggressively to 'teach him a lesson' for trying to run or resist arrest...which exacerbated the injury....if this is anywhere close to the truth, these officers need to have the book thrown at them, IMO.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I have worked in inner-city public schools with entirely black and Hispanic student bodies, and I don't need to be patronized about my views. You are right that I am realistic and honest, though. I give you all the credit in the world for adopting a child, but you have not really responded to anything I have said.

You have established that white people can be racist. But do you think that, for example, black parents in Washington, D.C. wouldn't go to any lengths they could to send their kids to mostly white Sidwell Friends, where the Obamas send their daughters? The entire busing project in the 1970s was based on the idea that blacks would perform better in school if there were more whites in class with them.

The main solution, as I have said several times, is for more than 30% of blacks to be raised in wedlock. In my view, the lack of stable families -father figures especially- is the cause of poor socialization, which is the main driver of black crime, and all crime. Although the government in a free society cannot pass a law forbidding out-of-wedlock births, it can create incentives for people to marry before having kids, or structure welfare in a way that does not reward people for being single mothers. We might also introduce more school choice, but again these white liberals (including Obama, who is not condemned to sending his daughter to some disastrous public school in D.C.) do not want them.

About the history of racism- is this supposed to excuse or justify black crime? Lots of poor white people have had lousy lives, too, but we don't make excuses for them. Also, how tenable is to think that this history is the cause of current black crime? The black crime rate was far lower before the 1960s than it is today. Did the effect of slavery, segregation, etc., simply kick in after the 1960s?

The point is that rich white liberals have always been quick to denounce racism and demand that the kids of poor whites be bused all over town as a way of socially engineering the schools, or demanded that Section 8 housing be built in the poorer white areas, but when it comes time for busing in their town, or a housing project in their neighborhood, they were (and are) doing everything they can to stop it. You might reply that these white liberals should stop behaving this way, to which I can only say that I hope that you have better luck than anybody else has had at changing human nature.

So, to conclude: I want some tax and education policy changes and I want to see cultural changes in childbearing patterns (perhaps incentivized by policy changes). I do not want some massive social engineering scheme designed to induce whites to move into black areas.

It is funny that you bring up communists, because they are famously guilty of the same thing: preaching about equality, the workers, etc., but accepting two sets of rules.

Actually, you brought up communists, with your comments about "Buster being a lefty," that was right out of the fifties, and KKK playbook. Catholics were beholden to a dictator, Jews murdered Christ, and Northern liberal lefties were communist.

I waited to post since yesterday. One good thing, since your post, you have been kept company by some members that have recorded some of the stupidest posts I have ever seen on the internet. (And that includes those rehashing cute kitty videos, and those debating whether it was the dog's paws, or a person in costume behind the dog.)
 
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