Feds: Ferguson PD Targets African Americans

ulukinatme

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Seems like a lot of old lurkers have come out of the woodwork lately. Part of me wonders if it has anything to do with the recent bans...but part of me is glad that lurkers are posting instead of lurking.
 

pkt77242

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So tell me........... how did blacks in America ever manage to earn equal rights, if being treated like subhumans made them so apathetic?

You and others want to keep using past treatment as an excuse for the majority black community in Ferguson to do nothing. Honestly, I am starting to think that you are just anti-establishment, and this is just the "cause celebre du jour" to try to "stick it to the man".

You see? This is the failure in your, and others, logic. I am not blaming the black population of Ferguson for anything. If you follow the line of discussion; I made a reference to reports about how the elected officials of Ferguson pressured the police chief into increasing the revenue his department generated. I mentioned that maybe it was time for the people of Ferguson to clean house at City Hall. There's no blame in that. Blame would be if I said that what the police were doing was ok, because the citizens of Ferguson didn't vote. What I am saying is, "This is the current situation. If you want to change the current situation, then getting out and voting is one way to do it." Instead of just calling for the firing of the Police Chief, who would likely just be replaced by another like-minded individual; change the leadership. The leadership sets the tone. How can you possibly have a problem with that?

You are blaming them for being apathetic, and you stated "how did blacks in America ever manage to earn equal rights, if being treated like subhumans made them so apathetic?"

My point is that it took them a 100+ years to stand up for themselves, it didn't happen overnight and it took a once in a generation leader to accomplish it. You act as it is easy for people to stand up after they have been beaten down and broken, and you "blame" them for being apathetic. Their is no flaw in my logic but thanks for trying anyways. The truth is that people who feel marginalized and beaten down struggle to stand up for themselves because of how they have been treated.

There is no doubt (and no disagreement) that the leaders of the city need to go (the mayor, the city manager, the judge, etc) but it is in my opinion not very valid to "blame" them for being apathetic in their situation, as it is the general human response to what they were enduring.
 

kmoose

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You are blaming them for being apathetic...

Please explain to me where in the following I suggest that it is the black community's fault that the police are harassing them?

Interesting to see, today, the reports about the Ferguson Police Chief being pressured by his bosses (read: politicians, or political appointees) to increase revenue. THAT can be remedied pretty easily. Time for the citizens of Ferguson to vote to clean house at City Hall.

There was then a question of whether or not Donnie Narco was engaging in race baiting. In reference to that topic, I said the following:

...The town of Ferguson is 70% black. If you remember, in the days immediately following the shooting of Michael Brown, there was a LOT of discussion about the "underrepresentation" of blacks in the Ferguson government. That lack of representation could very well be caused by apathy, and could very well have led to the belief(inside of Ferguson City Hall) that the actions of the Police Department were acceptable. Therefore, the apathy of the voters could inadvertently played a contributing role in the black experience in Ferguson over the years. IF it did, it sure as hell doesn't excuse the actions of the PD; but to refuse to acknowledge it could be construed as race baiting.

I suppose you could interpret that as blaming the apathy for the harassment that the black community has endured. I certainly didn't mean it that way, in fact I specifically said that it DID NOT excuse the actions of the Ferguson Police.

Later on, Donnie Narco said this:

People aren't born apathetic. They become apathetic when people treat them like subhumans, which the cops were doing in Ferguson.

Not knowing that Donnie Narco was the race baiting NJNP, I incorrectly assumed that he was trying to say that the black community in Ferguson was not responsible for their apathy, that whites were responsible for it. He appeared to indicate that we could not expect the black community in Ferguson to overcome the apathy, because whitey was keeping them down. So I retorted with the following:

So tell me........... how did blacks in America ever manage to earn equal rights, if being treated like subhumans made them so apathetic?

You and others want to keep using past treatment as an excuse for the majority black community in Ferguson to do nothing. Honestly, I am starting to think that you are just anti-establishment, and this is just the "cause celebre du jour" to try to "stick it to the man".

The only parallel that was intended, between post slavery black society and the black community in Ferguson is that there is no excuse for a 12% voter turnout. Blacks in the 40s and 50s were treated MUCH worse than the abuses uncovered in Ferguson, yet they did not allow that abuse to make THEM apathetic. So it shouldn't be an excuse for the voters in Ferguson, either.

You don't like me. I get that. I don't care much for you, either. But you don't get to accuse me of "victim blaming", just because you don't like me.
 

Circa

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That's funny. I say all blacks are criminals, I am a racist. You group all cops as the "new kkk" you see yourself as some kind of educated crusader. It's ok to use stereotypes if it supports your argument I guess.

Btw I'm a cop. A detective actually. Lets hear it...
This is a bait tool that many find fish for.. I find It simply unAmerican!
 

GoIrish41

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Intelligence has little bearing on perspective or knowledge of subject matter or deconstruction of opinions.

GoIrish has formed opinions and has taken an absolute stance on the subject (see. 100% race) so I stand behind my comments/opinions.



What happened in Ferguson should not be classified as protests. Not only does the actions make that factually incorrect, it does a great disservice to actual protests from the civil rights era where much more shameful actions took place but the community had significantly better leadership.

Also, I am not taking away any of the frustration and humiliation that the residents of Ferguson faced. All I am saying is that this frustration comes from a much deeper set of conditions that go beyond the color of their skin.



The emails in question do not prove the entire department was racist. However, looking at the comments of one police officer on the rights of citizens and how the police department reacted to the initial riots does show system wide just how inept the department as a whole was.

The greater point here that I am making is wholesale changes need to be made to the department but not because of racism. Rather, wholesale changes need to be made due to incompetence. Wholesale changes need to be made so that politically appointed leadership does not modify policing efforts in an effort to increase revenue.

If you take that to the next level, the way cities and towns all over the US are currently staffing, operating and compensating their police departments is a systematic failure. That has nothing to do with racism.



In a relatively small, somewhat isolated police department that has a limited ability to staff with the correct personnel due to a multitude of factors from compensation to hiring regulations it not only possible but probable a culture of illegal and unacceptable behavior is born and fostered.

You're correct that this is not isolated to Ferguson. Departments from police to corrections all over the US face the same issue. They are forced to hire and keep the wrong people for the job. We could start another thread on why that is but that's a large part of the issue.

Then when you mix the incorrect personnel for the job with a segment of society that has a completely different perspective on what's right or wrong...you have a powder keg just waiting to explode.

I will add that while you're quick to point out issues at Rikers, you fail to try and consider the opposite experience and how they arrived there.

Take a police officer who time and time again is faced with viewing behavior that is not acceptable. Time and time again they go into homes where children are neglected, criminal behavior is not only ignored but at times accepted and rewarded.

It's waring to say the least. And because of that I think it's fair to say that if someone wants to use social conditions as a explanation of crime, those same social conditions should be used to explain poor policing.

Neither is acceptable but both are understandable....to an extent.



Agree. Now apply your logic to all institutions.
Are the schools a problem in Ferguson? Hiring practices for cops? Poverty? Yes, yes and yes! But it does not remove the fact that blacks were treated as an ATM to fund the city. I could make the argument that school performance, hiring practices and poverty all find their root causes in racism. But it doesn't matter. What we know is that this probe uncovered major racial problems. If the solutions involve fixing all the other problems then all the better. In the meantime searching for alternative reasons why these things were happening sounds a lot like making excuses for horrific behavior and searching for ways to blame the victims. But that is just my opinion from my shallow viewpoint.
 

Circa

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I figure this could belong here. As these type of things go on and the ultra hurried media; etc. we now are seeing. 'I feel for the the harmony that was established being disrupted.' Madison chief to shooting victim's family: 'I am sorry'

I grew up in a law enforcement household. I hold no ill toward the man or woman whom has decided to put themselves out there for the cause of good peacekeeping companions of our U.S.A. Protect and Serve has always been apart of my mind. I hope this starts a discussion of what it takes in todays world. This has been around forever. We are just now deciding whether it's politically correct to face the issue and deal with it.

I love you all like a friend and brother. We don't need us fans compelling each other to false pretence.
 

dales5050

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A]But it does not remove the fact that blacks were treated as an ATM to fund the city. I could make the argument that school performance, hiring practices and poverty all find their root causes in racism. But it doesn't matter. What we know is that this probe uncovered major racial problems. If the solutions involve fixing all the other problems then all the better. In the meantime searching for alternative reasons why these things were happening sounds a lot like making excuses for horrific behavior and searching for ways to blame the victims. But that is just my opinion from my shallow viewpoint.

Police departments all over the US use tickets as a revenue source. It happens in the most affluent areas just as much in the poor areas. I know multiple officers in multiple departments where the majority of their job is to simply write tickets. They of course patrol areas of commerce and thru traffic so that the tickets are distributed more towards visitors to the area and commuters rather than residents.

If you have a limited amount of police coverage and you combine that with a town that has concentrated poverty, which in turn projects crime, it's logical that a police department that has been instructed to raise revenue is going to write tickets where they patrol. Where they patrol is where the crime is. It's simple statistics that the tickets are going to be written in poor areas when you look at it objectively.

Out of all of the issues in Ferguson, the ATM argument is the biggest reach. Writing tickets is common. Now if you were to talk about how some tickets were fixed, that's a big issue. Citations, once written, need to be fulfilled.

Most concerning to me was the complete lack of understanding of the law and in turn the civil rights that were violated during several engagements between residents and police officers.
 
B

Bogtrotter07

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I would argue that African Americans in Ferguson did not have equal rights ... that is sorta the point. One does not have to look at past treatment from 50, 75 or 100 years ago for evidence. The Justice report demonstrates that equality has not been achieved there. Being treated diferently (read worse) as a matter of course right now does not equate to the rights they "earned" in the past. That is not the fault of the black citizens of Ferguson but those who control the institutions there -- the police and the courts in particular who have ignored the very laws that were written to ensure equality.

This by the way is THE point.

Couple it with the fact that people of lower income, lower abilities, and those that don't fit positive normative stereotypes are often treated negatively, regardless of their behavior, and anyone can see that we have a receipt for disaster.

And it isn't as easy as giving in and appeasing everyone. Behaviors cannot be tolerated by a functional society; we no longer have "the luxury" of manvering room for barbaric and primitive expressions of behavior, not the public, elected officials, or those charged with public safety. It is translating to a rising death toll, and massive social unrest.
 

GoIrish41

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Police departments all over the US use tickets as a revenue source. It happens in the most affluent areas just as much in the poor areas. I know multiple officers in multiple departments where the majority of their job is to simply write tickets. They of course patrol areas of commerce and thru traffic so that the tickets are distributed more towards visitors to the area and commuters rather than residents.

If you have a limited amount of police coverage and you combine that with a town that has concentrated poverty, which in turn projects crime, it's logical that a police department that has been instructed to raise revenue is going to write tickets where they patrol. Where they patrol is where the crime is. It's simple statistics that the tickets are going to be written in poor areas when you look at it objectively.

Out of all of the issues in Ferguson, the ATM argument is the biggest reach. Writing tickets is common.
Perhaps you find crime where you look for it more closely. Writing tickets is indeed common but targeting blacks when you do it is unethical and unconstitutional. The fact none of them saw their plan as a problem is at least grossly dismissive of black's rights and almost surely evidence of institutional racism. Especially when 67% of their citizens were brining it to their attention.
 

Irish Insanity

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This may have nothing specifically to do with this discussion, but I find it interesting.

A few years back I owned a Suburban that I had 22" rims w/ low profile tires on. I was pulled over on average a few times per month and only in specific parts of town. No tickets were issued. Yet the car I owned following it, and our other vehicle I drove, not a single time in those few years. Even in the same parts of yown. The vehicle I was driving and the part of town I was in determined if I was pulled over. No change in driving styles from vehicle to vehicle, and no tickets issued.
 

GoIrish41

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This may have nothing specifically to do with this discussion, but I find it interesting.

A few years back I owned a Suburban that I had 22" rims w/ low profile tires on. I was pulled over on average a few times per month and only in specific parts of town. No tickets were issued. Yet the car I owned following it, and our other vehicle I drove, not a single time in those few years. Even in the same parts of yown. The vehicle I was driving and the part of town I was in determined if I was pulled over. No change in driving styles from vehicle to vehicle, and no tickets issued.

I think has everything to do with the discussion.
 

Circa

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Police departments all over the US use tickets as a revenue source. It happens in the most affluent areas just as much in the poor areas. I know multiple officers in multiple departments where the majority of their job is to simply write tickets. They of course patrol areas of commerce and thru traffic so that the tickets are distributed more towards visitors to the area and commuters rather than residents.

If you have a limited amount of police coverage and you combine that with a town that has concentrated poverty, which in turn projects crime, it's logical that a police department that has been instructed to raise revenue is going to write tickets where they patrol. Where they patrol is where the crime is. It's simple statistics that the tickets are going to be written in poor areas when you look at it objectively.

Out of all of the issues in Ferguson, the ATM argument is the biggest reach. Writing tickets is common. Now if you were to talk about how some tickets were fixed, that's a big issue. Citations, once written, need to be fulfilled.

Most concerning to me was the complete lack of understanding of the law and in turn the civil rights that were violated during several engagements between residents and police officers.

Not to pull you out of the crowd but I travel and I'll tell this story. When travelers travel they usually have a few things in mind. Pleasure, shopping, vacation, work. If LEO's decided to take that tax revenue and supplement it with ticket revenue in every city in the country.. recession would be a great idea for the future.
 

dales5050

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Not to pull you out of the crowd but I travel and I'll tell this story. When travelers travel they usually have a few things in mind. Pleasure, shopping, vacation, work. If LEO's decided to take that tax revenue and supplement it with ticket revenue in every city in the country.. recession would be a great idea for the future.

Well I was not speaking to travelers in my post. By visitors to the area and commuters I was talking about traffic and parking citations done by local police on commuter roads and in situations where the odds are high it's not a local resident.

To paint a clear picture, I know several police officers that work in a town that also is home to a State University and an expressway running through the middle of the town.

On a daily basis the cops line up on the expressway to pluck people who are speeding through the town. Residents of the town know where they park, as it's an almost every day occurrence, and do not speed in that area. If they need to get speeding tickets, the expressway is where they go, not the town roads.

Beyond this, during special events (games, concerts, 4th) they go on a parking citation binge as, again, people not familiar with the area are going to be more likely to park in a place that could be ticketed during the event. Residents know not to risk it during these high volume times. But residents also know if it's just a regular Tuesday morning, parking in the same place has much much higher odds of not getting a ticket.

On the subject of travelers, my personal experiences with that lead me to disagree with you. I have noticed personally a trend for the police department to be more active in ticketing for things like open containers during high tourist season that in off times. My inference in that is to ticket people who are least likely to be local residents. But that's just a personal observation.


I think one of the biggest keys to police departments using citations as a revenue source is the likelihood that the ticketing officer is going to either know the person before or the odds are running into them again. It's human nature to not want to run into a guy on Tuesday in line at the grocery store that you wrote a $300 ticket to on Sunday.


This is why I think wholesale changes to the way police protection is done in the US. The challenge with this is I don't think people are grasping the other side.

For example, I think policing should be done in precincts or wards and officers should be forced to live in the city/town of service, if not the precinct itself. That would make officers a part of the community but that is going to cost money.

I also think police ranks should be filled with officers who pass a very, very rigid psychological profile test and have at least have an associates degree in criminal justice or similar. In addition to that, all quotas for staffing need to be removed. This as well is going to cost much more money in salaries. Ferguson pays like $13 to $18 an hour. That won't cut it.

Lastly, if you want to remove the practice of ticketing to raise revenues, you're going to need to raise revenues elsewhere. At best, you're going to just raise taxes on everyone including those who don't speed, keep their registration up and park in the correct space. At worst, you're going to raise taxes and cut services elsewhere to afford this. Try telling a person who does what's right they need to pay an extra $50 a year so that people who speed don't get cited as often to ensure everything is on the up and up.



This is a big and important issue. It needs to be resolved but you can't make any progress if you speak in absolutes and from a position of deflection. Sadly, that's the SOP currently.
 

dales5050

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Perhaps you find crime where you look for it more closely.

It's not 'perhaps'...it's a fact. Have you ever looked at the list of laws and ordinances that cover where you live? People break the law on a daily basis and most without really knowing they do.

Writing tickets is indeed common but targeting blacks when you do it is unethical and unconstitutional. The fact none of them saw their plan as a problem is at least grossly dismissive of black's rights and almost surely evidence of institutional racism. Especially when 67% of their citizens were brining it to their attention.

This is where I find your opinion dangerous.

Were there racist police officers in that department? Yes. But that does not mean the entire police department or all citations were written behind the idea of race. You're suggesting it it.

I think a more accurate position would be that poor people were targeted and police interacting with those poor people caused them to form opinions about the community as a whole.

Put it this way, if you're an officer of the law (of any race) and you work in Marion West Virginia...you're going to form opinions of white folks who live a certain way and eventually find some resentment for them...

If you're an officer of the law in say El Paso...you're going to form opinions of latinos and Mexican nationals who live a certain way and eventually find some resentment for them.

That's basic human nature. I really don't think you're even attempting to see all sides of the issue. That's the only way this is going to be solved.

Have you ever done a ride along? If not, do so please. Most every department has some program where citizens can go along with an officer for the day. Do one shift with a police officer and see what they face each and every day. You'll be shocked and find rage pretty easily in my honest opinion.

Now this is not to excuse the behavior of some or wash away their actions. Rather, it's to allow you to understand the human condition in all of this.
 

GoIrish41

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It's not 'perhaps'...it's a fact. Have you ever looked at the list of laws and ordinances that cover where you live? People break the law on a daily basis and most without really knowing they do.

OK, so if you acknowledge that you will find crime where you look for it, and you further acknowledged that more police are in the black neighborhoods of Ferguson, because, you know, poverty and all of that. So, doesn't it follow that there is more crime attibuted to black neighborhoods BECAUSE that is where police are looking for it? Your quote above suggests that if they applied their limited resources mostly in white neighborhoods that they would find it there, too. But they don't. They focus in black neighborhoods. You don't see the problem here? C'mon Dale, you seem like a smart enough guy to recognize that applying resources to a the neighborhoods where a particular race lives points to a pattern. It suggests that they are targeting blacks. Isn't that, by definition, institutional racism?

This is where I find your opinion dangerous.

Were there racist police officers in that department? Yes. But that does not mean the entire police department or all citations were written behind the idea of race. You're suggesting it it.

I think a more accurate position would be that poor people were targeted and police interacting with those poor people caused them to form opinions about the community as a whole.

Look, if you follow the logic above, you will come to the conclusion that there was, indeed, INSTITUTIONAL racism. Nobody is saying that every member of the police force is a racist. What is being said is that the deck is stacked against the black citizens of Ferguson. I don't even think that a coherent argument can be made that that is not the case.

Here is what I find dangerous ... when the spotlight falls on a particular problem -- one that is so obvious and so pervasive -- and people reach to find other problems, deeper issues, justifications and excuses that offer an "out" to those who are perpetrating that problem by way of pointing to poverty, or education, or apathy, or whatever else you want to offer up. This approach creates an atmosphere in which action to correct the problem gives way to action to justify the behavior and point fingers. We know what the problem is. The Justice Department report clearly spells it out. Are there other problems, too? Heck yes, but THIS problem is one of institutional racism. The danger is that we spend all our time and effort arguing about the "real" problem and miss doing anything to correct the real problem. Your approach amounts to advocacy of the status quo, and we know beyond a doubt that the status quo is, at best problematic in that it negatively affects MOST of the citizens of Ferguson in a negative, harmful, and illegal way.

The poor people ARE the black people. Plopping another lable on the people is not helpful if for no other reason than those people are not going to see it the same way as you do. The discussion about the real problem is long overdue in this country.

Put it this way, if you're an officer of the law (of any race) and you work in Marion West Virginia...you're going to form opinions of white folks who live a certain way and eventually find some resentment for them...

If you're an officer of the law in say El Paso...you're going to form opinions of latinos and Mexican nationals who live a certain way and eventually find some resentment for them.

That's basic human nature. I really don't think you're even attempting to see all sides of the issue. That's the only way this is going to be solved.

We are talking about professional police officers, so the least we should expect out of them is professionalism. Allowing their personal feelings to distract them from their sworn duty is anything but professional. I find your acceptance of the "basic human nature" argument myopic and dismissive of the rights of black citizens of Ferguson and, frankly, every other town and city in which it is acceptable for police officers to allow their personal feelings about a race of people to get in the way of protecting and serving the citizens -- ALL of the citizens, not just the ones for which they do not have contempt.

Have you ever done a ride along? If not, do so please. Most every department has some program where citizens can go along with an officer for the day. Do one shift with a police officer and see what they face each and every day. You'll be shocked and find rage pretty easily in my honest opinion.

Now this is not to excuse the behavior of some or wash away their actions. Rather, it's to allow you to understand the human condition in all of this.

I worked as a reporter for several years in a previous life, so yes, I've gone on ride-alongs many times with police officers. And, you are right, you get a perspective of what the officers have to deal with on a daily basis. But if you look out the window of the patrol car instead of focusing on the officer driving, you get a pretty decent perspective on what the citizens put up with on a day to day basis, too. The question we should be asking ourselves is "who is serving who?". These officers have applied for a job in which their responsibility is to protect and serve the communities. In Ferguson, an argument could be made that the people who sought out this type of work were instead terrorizing the communities the swore to serve. And the worst part of it is that the government that vested that responsibility in these officers were not only a part of it, but they seemed to have demanded it from them. THAT is the human condition that the citizens of Ferguson have been dealing with for far too long. They are the ones who deserve our empathy, not the institutions and officers who corrupted their role to serve the people.
 

dales5050

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OK, so if you acknowledge that you will find crime where you look for it, and you further acknowledged that more police are in the black neighborhoods of Ferguson, because, you know, poverty and all of that. So, doesn't it follow that there is more crime attibuted to black neighborhoods BECAUSE that is where police are looking for it? Your quote above suggests that if they applied their limited resources mostly in white neighborhoods that they would find it there, too. But they don't. They focus in black neighborhoods. You don't see the problem here? C'mon Dale, you seem like a smart enough guy to recognize that applying resources to a the neighborhoods where a particular race lives points to a pattern. It suggests that they are targeting blacks. Isn't that, by definition, institutional racism?

The focus is on poor neighborhoods. Poverty creates crime. You keep on trying to change poor to black to validate your inference.

Poor is poor.

Look, if you follow the logic above, you will come to the conclusion that there was, indeed, INSTITUTIONAL racism. Nobody is saying that every member of the police force is a racist. What is being said is that the deck is stacked against the black citizens of Ferguson. I don't even think that a coherent argument can be made that that is not the case.

I don't follow your logic and I don't agree.

What do you call it when an almost 100% white force focuses on the poorest neighborhoods that are also almost 100% white? You're logic does not answer this reality. It's flawed. Sorry.

Here is what I find dangerous ... when the spotlight falls on a particular problem -- one that is so obvious and so pervasive -- and people reach to find other problems, deeper issues, justifications and excuses that offer an "out" to those who are perpetrating that problem by way of pointing to poverty, or education, or apathy, or whatever else you want to offer up. This approach creates an atmosphere in which action to correct the problem gives way to action to justify the behavior and point fingers. We know what the problem is. The Justice Department report clearly spells it out. Are there other problems, too? Heck yes, but THIS problem is one of institutional racism. The danger is that we spend all our time and effort arguing about the "real" problem and miss doing anything to correct the real problem. Your approach amounts to advocacy of the status quo, and we know beyond a doubt that the status quo is, at best problematic in that it negatively affects MOST of the citizens of Ferguson in a negative, harmful, and illegal way.

When a spotlight falls on a problem..... There is your problem. We don't bother to change things until it's too late. Where was Al Sharpton before Brown? He just follows the bad.

We need to solve these problems without having frankly unnecessary elements cloud the process. What happened to Brown should have no bearing on fixing Ferguson and in fact prevents the ability to fix Ferguson.

The poor people ARE the black people. Plopping another lable on the people is not helpful if for no other reason than those people are not going to see it the same way as you do. The discussion about the real problem is long overdue in this country.

Poor people are poor people. Poor people are of all races. You're the one who is 'plopping' an unnecessary label on them.

We are talking about professional police officers, so the least we should expect out of them is professionalism. Allowing their personal feelings to distract them from their sworn duty is anything but professional. I find your acceptance of the "basic human nature" argument myopic and dismissive of the rights of black citizens of Ferguson and, frankly, every other town and city in which it is acceptable for police officers to allow their personal feelings about a race of people to get in the way of protecting and serving the citizens -- ALL of the citizens, not just the ones for which they do not have contempt.

Just where do you come to the conclusion they are 'professionals'? Is it based on their education? Because many departments don't require higher education to qualify? Is it compensation? Because many make less than $20.00 an hour. Is it temperament or ability? Because many are hired by way of quotas not their actual ability to do the job.

You're calling them professionals when I am telling you that many of the ranks of police departments are filled with anything but professionals. Making things worse, labor law and unions make it almost impossible to clear the ranks of unprofessional officers.

I worked as a reporter for several years in a previous life, so yes, I've gone on ride-alongs many times with police officers. And, you are right, you get a perspective of what the officers have to deal with on a daily basis. But if you look out the window of the patrol car instead of focusing on the officer driving, you get a pretty decent perspective on what the citizens put up with on a day to day basis, too. The question we should be asking ourselves is "who is serving who?". These officers have applied for a job in which their responsibility is to protect and serve the communities. In Ferguson, an argument could be made that the people who sought out this type of work were instead terrorizing the communities the swore to serve. And the worst part of it is that the government that vested that responsibility in these officers were not only a part of it, but they seemed to have demanded it from them. THAT is the human condition that the citizens of Ferguson have been dealing with for far too long. They are the ones who deserve our empathy, not the institutions and officers who corrupted their role to serve the people.

These officers did apply for the job but not all did it to 'protect and serve'...that's a common misconception. Many took the job because of the pension. Many took the job because they were unqualified for much else. Many took the job because they know they fit a quota count. Worst is many took the job because they like power and power corrupts.

If you want to have an honest conversation about "who is serving who?" you need to start with "who" is actually serving first.
 

GoIrish41

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The focus is on poor neighborhoods. Poverty creates crime. You keep on trying to change poor to black to validate your inference.

Poor is poor.

Why is the focus on poor neighborhoods? You said yourself a couple of posts up that you find crime where you look for it? Why focus on the poor neighborhoods (who also happen to be the black neighborhoods) if you could just as easily focus on the more affluent white neighborhoods and achieve the same results? Choces are made about where to focus resources, and those choices are contrary to civil rights law. They also appear to be pretty compelling evidence of institutional racism.

You can't separate the poor from the black in Ferguson because it does not fit your narrative. In Ferguson, poor is black. Why not deal with the reality of the situation instead of labeling it as something else -- which coincidently allows us to focus somewhere else besides where the problem lies?

What do you call it when an almost 100% white force focuses on the poorest neighborhoods that are also almost 100% white? You're logic does not answer this reality. It's flawed. Sorry.

I call it a different topic than what we are talking about. This thread is about Ferguson and the fact that the PD targeted African Americans. Where is this mythical neighborhood in Ferguson that is 100% white and being targeted by police? Why do you insist on stretching and dilluting the problem that is obvious with bullshit observations. OK the police are targeting the poor (which is fucked up in and of itself), but the poor are the blacks in this case. Choosing one label over the other is senseless. Why does it seem so important to you to identify the targeted people as poor instead of as black. They are both, and a pretty persuasive argument can be made that they are (as a whole) poor BECAUSE they are black.

When a spotlight falls on a problem..... There is your problem. We don't bother to change things until it's too late. Where was Al Sharpton before Brown? He just follows the bad.

We need to solve these problems without having frankly unnecessary elements cloud the process. What happened to Brown should have no bearing on fixing Ferguson and in fact prevents the ability to fix Ferguson.

Hahaha. The blame Al Sharpton argument. Let me ask instead ... "where were you?" Were you advocating for changes to these types of behaviors before Ferguson. I promise you that Al Sharpton was. He has spent decades standing up for civil rights. What have you done? If these problems are so deep and so compelling to you, let us all know the progress you have worked for to give black students equal access to education, and their parents equal access to jobs. The unnecessary elements -- protestors in the street and the focus that Sharpton helped to illuminate is what brought about the investigation, that revealed the problems in the first place. When nobody ever heard of Ferguson, nothing was getting done to correct any of these problems. Those who sat in the seats of power ignored the complaines of black people who were being mistreated. The right of assembly and free speech are pillars of the Constitution for a reason. This is a perfect illustration of how those rights work to the benefit of the citizens of this country.


Poor people are poor people. Poor people are of all races. You're the one who is 'plopping' an unnecessary label on them.

This issue is about race. It's what the protests were about. It's what the investigation was about. And it is what the report was about. None of it is about the plight of poor people in this country. It is a great conversation to have, it just isn't what we are talking about. I didn't bring up the fact that they were poor, or apathetic, or anything else. I am on topic, and you, my friend, are not.

Just where do you come to the conclusion they are 'professionals'? Is it based on their education? Because many departments don't require higher education to qualify? Is it compensation? Because many make less than $20.00 an hour. Is it temperament or ability? Because many are hired by way of quotas not their actual ability to do the job.

You're calling them professionals when I am telling you that many of the ranks of police departments are filled with anything but professionals. Making things worse, labor law and unions make it almost impossible to clear the ranks of unprofessional officers.

They are professionals because they are being paid to do a job with big boy responsibilities. When Sanchez throws three picks in an Eagles game, I don't question whether or not he is on the team, getting paid and therefore, by definition, a professional football player. I don't make that distinction with police officers who perform dishonerably either. You are agreeing, however, that they are not acting professionally. That leads me to the conclusion that you are saying exactly the same thing as me but only in the most disagreeable way possible.

These officers did apply for the job but not all did it to 'protect and serve'...that's a common misconception. Many took the job because of the pension. Many took the job because they were unqualified for much else. Many took the job because they know they fit a quota count. Worst is many took the job because they like power and power corrupts.

None of that releases them for the responsibilities that are part of the job, which is to protect and to serve.

Anyway, you keep trying to focus this discussion on individual cops, when the rest of us are talking about an institutional problem that allows the worst among the individuals to violate the civil rights of people in the community where they serve.

If you want to have an honest conversation about "who is serving who?" you need to start with "who" is actually serving first.

I don't disagree that some of these people are not serving -- not serving honorably in any case, but all of them took an oath to serve. And the rightful expectation of ALL of the citizens of their community is that they will uphold their oath. But again, the bigger problem isn't the individual officers but the culture that allows them to trample the rights of the citizens of Ferguson.
 
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dales5050

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Why is the focus on poor neighborhoods? You said yourself a couple of posts up that you find crime where you look for it? Why focus on the poor neighborhoods (who also happen to be the black neighborhoods) if you could just as easily focus on the more affluent white neighborhoods and achieve the same results? Choces are made about where to focus resources, and those choices are contrary to civil rights law. They also appear to be pretty compelling evidence of institutional racism.

Poor is poor. In this case they are black.

Yes, if you look for crime you will find it. How much you find is the deeper question. What types of crime happen also vary.

But I guess in your world they would patrol all parts of town equally...until you find range and discrimination in response time to a shooting because an officer was writing a parking ticket on the rich side of town.

You can't separate the poor from the black and Ferguson because it does not fit your narrative. In Ferguson, poor is black. Why not deal with the reality of the situation instead of labeling it as something else -- which coincidently allows us to focus somewhere else besides where the problem lies?

Yes you can and I have.

I call it a different topic than what we are talking about. This thread is about Ferguson and the fact that the PD targeted African Americans. Where is this mythical neighborhood in Ferguson that is 100% white and being targeted by police? Why do you insist on stretching dilluting the problem that is obvious with bullshit observations. OK the police are targeting the poor (which is fucked up in and of itself), but the poor are the blacks in this case. Choosing one label over the other is senseless. Why does it seem so important to you to identify the targeted people as poor instead of as black. They are both, and a pretty persuasive argument can be made that they are (as a whole) poor BECAUSE they are black.

If you want to keep the conversation about such an important topic just about Ferguson and not explore something deeper with someone who is trying to have an honest conversation my shallow comment seems pretty accurate.

Hahaha. The blame Al Sharpton argument. Let me ask instead ... "where were you?" Were you advocating for changes to these types of behaviors before Ferguson. I promise you that Al Sharpton was. He has spent decades standing up for civil rights. What have you done? The unnecessary elements -- protestors in the street and the focus that Sharpton helped to illuminate is what brought about the investigation, that revealed the problems in the first place. When nobody ever heard of Ferguson, nothing was getting done to correct any of these problems. Those who sat in the seats of power ignored the pleas of black people who were being mistreated. The right of assembly and free speech are pillars of the Constitution for a reason. This is a perfect illustration of how those rights work to the benefit of the citizens of this country.

I used Al Sharpton because he's someone everyone knows. But we can expand upon that.

When Brown was shot, my social feeds were filled with keyboard warriors from the valley who were outraged. They all jumped to incorrect conclusions. It was like they felt they were actually making a difference.

Then when Wilson was cleared and the DOJ report came out...more outrage.

Yesterday all they talked about was the iWatch.....

Look, this has been a fun exercise but it's finding a way to say the same thing. Have a good one.
 

GoIrish41

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Poor is poor. In this case they are black.

Yes, if you look for crime you will find it. How much you find is the deeper question. What types of crime happen also vary.

But I guess in your world they would patrol all parts of town equally...until you find range and discrimination in response time to a shooting because an officer was writing a parking ticket on the rich side of town.



Yes you can and I have.



If you want to keep the conversation about such an important topic just about Ferguson and not explore something deeper with someone who is trying to have an honest conversation my shallow comment seems pretty accurate.



I used Al Sharpton because he's someone everyone knows. But we can expand upon that.

When Brown was shot, my social feeds were filled with keyboard warriors from the valley who were outraged. They all jumped to incorrect conclusions. It was like they felt they were actually making a difference.

Then when Wilson was cleared and the DOJ report came out...more outrage.

Yesterday all they talked about was the iWatch.....

Look, this has been a fun exercise but it's finding a way to say the same thing. Have a good one.

later
 

kmoose

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You can't separate the poor from the black in Ferguson because it does not fit your narrative. In Ferguson, poor is black. Why not deal with the reality of the situation instead of labeling it as something else -- which coincidently allows us to focus somewhere else besides where the problem lies?

I think there is an argument to be made, that the problem is NOT one of race, but one of economic status. If you really want to clean up the disconnect between police and the citizenry, then I think a good start would be for some group to do a statistical study of how prevalent these same issues are, in poor white neighborhoods. If there is a large disparity, then it would be safe to draw the conclusion that race plays a large part in that. But if they are reasonably close, statistically, then I think you have to say that the problems stem more from economic "class", than race. Either way, it is wrong. But people are trying to portray Ferguson as some kind of microcosm of what is happening all over the country. Well, in Ferguson poor might equal black, but that is not true all over the country.
 

potownhero

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Ginned up?

Ginned up?

Curious of thoughts on this article.

Ferguson fake-out: Justice Department’s bogus report | New York Post

Addressing the nation from Selma, Ala., on Saturday, President Obama said that while racism may be “no longer endemic,” as it was 50 years ago, his Justice Department’s report on Ferguson shows that the “nation’s racial history still casts its long shadow upon us.”

Sorry: The Justice report doesn’t prove disparate treatment, let alone discrimination.

In fact, it looks more like something ginned up to distract from the embarrassing fact that Justice (in another report released the same day) wound up fully validating the findings of the Ferguson grand jury.

Racism is serious, and those engaging in it should be shamed — but we should have real evidence before accusing others of it. And every one of the Justice report’s main claims of evidence of discrimination falls short.

Starting with the primary numerical claim. The report notes on Page 4: “Ferguson’s law-enforcement practices overwhelmingly impact African-Americans.

“Data collected by the Ferguson Police Department from 2012 to 2014 shows that African-Americans account for 85 percent of vehicle stops, 90 percent of citations, and 93 percent of arrests made by FPD officers, despite comprising only 67 percent of Ferguson’s population.”

Those statistics don’t prove racism, because blacks don’t commit traffic offenses at the same rate as other population groups.

The Bureau of Justice Statistics’ 2011 Police-Public Contact Survey indicates that, nationwide, blacks were 31 percent more likely than whites to be pulled over for a traffic stop.

Ferguson is a black-majority town. If its blacks were pulled over at the same rate as blacks nationally, they’d account for 87.5 percent of traffic stops.

In other words, the numbers actually suggest that Ferguson police may be slightly less likely to pull over black drivers than are their national counterparts. They certainly don’t show that Ferguson is a hotbed of racism.

Critics may assert that that “31 percent more likely” figure simply shows that racism is endemic to police forces nationwide.

Hmm: The survey also reveals that men are 42 percent more likely than women to be pulled over for traffic stops. Should we conclude that police are biased against men, or that men drive more recklessly?

In fact, blacks die in car accidents at a rate about twice their share of car owners.

A 2006 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration study found that black drivers who were killed in accidents have the highest rate of past convictions for speeding and for other moving violations. This suggests that there are a lot of unsafe black drivers, not racism.

The Justice report on Ferguson continues, “African-Americans are at least 50 percent more likely to have their cases lead to an arrest warrant, and accounted for 92 percent of cases in which an arrest warrant was issued by the Ferguson Municipal Court in 2013.”

Again, this pretends that a mere difference is evidence of discrimination.

But the report’s statistic doesn’t even look at the seriousness of a charge — something that makes a big difference in whether to issue a warrant.

Could it be that blacks are more likely to face particularly serious charges?

Since Justice has gone through the case files, it could easily have answered the questions. Perhaps it didn’t like the answers. (Unfortunately, no national data are available for comparison.)

Another major complaint in the Justice report: “Most strikingly, the court issues municipal arrest warrants not on the basis of public-safety needs, but rather as a routine response to missed court appearances and required fine payments.”

If you think that this is unique to Ferguson, try not paying your next speeding ticket.

As for the anecdotal evidence Justice offers to bring home this complaint, well, here’s an anecdote from Washington, DC — a town with a black mayor and black-majority city council.

Megan Johnson, a black DC woman, recently failed to pay 10 parking tickets within the allotted 30 days. The city doubled her fines from $500 to $1,000, then booted, towed and sold her car — and charged her $700 for towing and impounding it.

DC sold the car at auction for $500 and won’t even credit that amount to what she owes. It’s now attaching her tax refunds.

Justice’s Ferguson anecdotes no more prove racism than Megan Johnson’s experience proves the DC government is racist.

Finally, for “direct evidence of racial bias,” the report describes seven emails from Ferguson police officers from 2008 to 2011 that Justice describes as offensive to blacks, women, Muslims, President Obama and his wife, and possibly people of mixed race.

But this begs some big questions: Did only one or two of the 53 officers send the emails? Did the objectionable emails end in 2011 because those officers no longer worked for the department, were told to stop?

The Justice Department’s report reads as a prosecutor’s brief, not an unbiased attempt to get at the truth, with evidence carefully selected and portrayed in the strongest possible light.

Differences don’t necessarily imply racism, but the Obama Justice Department doesn’t seem to care.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The Atlantic's Conor Friedersdorf just published an article titled "Where's the Conservative Outcry on Ferguson Police Abuses?"

Conservatives are typically eager to disparage politicians and bureaucrats who conspire to seize wealth. So you'd think that they'd be outraged to learn that officials in one municipality treat residents as revenue sources rather than citizens. In this city, policymakers have made maximizing the intake of money their number one priority. They urge police to cite residents as aggressively as possible and evaluate their municipal court judge based on the fines that he levies. Challenges to the city's system are thwarted by a deliberately complicated thicket of rules and red tape. And violations of the Constitution are frequent and unpunished.

This city's government does not solve problems. Its government is the problem. One illustration of many concerns a poor woman who got a single parking ticket there. "From 2007 to 2014, the woman was arrested twice, spent six days in jail, and paid $550 to the court for the events stemming from this single instance of illegal parking," federal investigators report. "Court records show that she twice attempted to make partial payments of $25 and $50, but the court returned those payments, refusing to accept anything less than payment in full. One of those payments was later accepted, but only after the court’s letter rejecting payment by money order was returned as undeliverable. This woman is now making regular payments on the fine. As of December 2014, over seven years later, despite initially owing a $151 fine and having already paid $550, she still owed $541."

What a burden the public sector has imposed on her life.

No city in America better illustrates government run amok than Ferguson, Missouri. Libertarians have long excoriated the city. Less so, movement conservatives. Most are ambivalent about the abuses. Some have even defended Ferguson officials. Why haven't conservatives seized this opportunity to highlight government-caused damage and to show blacks, Ferguson's most frequently abused demographic, that the right is intent on protecting everyone's civil rights?

Some critics of movement conservatism believe that the answer is simply racism, but that label obscures more than it reveals. Many conservative institutions and commentators reject the principles of white supremacy, favor equal rights, and bear no personal animosity toward black people. Yet many of these same people and institutions tend to ignore, downplay, and de-prioritize fixing government abuses when the victims are black, a tendency underscored by the reaction to the Ferguson report.

Ideology is a significant factor. Conservatives are fond of recalling the socialists who let their dislike of capitalism and their commitment to equality blind them to the horrors of Communism. In overlapping decades, conservative movement icons were just as myopic. During the Civil Rights-era, when outright bigotry toward blacks was far more potent, figures like William F. Buckley and Barry Goldwater took racist positions that they would later regret in part because their ideology made them averse to seeing Jim Crow for what it was: an evil that justified a muscular federal usurpation of state prerogatives to protect the basic liberties of American citizens.

The conservative movement has made tremendous progress on race. Today, the vast majority of self-identified conservatives would unwaveringly favor federal intervention if any state tried to segregate its lunch counters or water fountains (and no state legislature would even consider that agenda). But the conservative reaction to the Ferguson report nevertheless suggests that, for ideological and political reasons, the movement remains unable to recognize instances in which local tyranny and frequent violations of Constitutional rights justify outside intervention.

Instead, they're hyper-focused on contesting the progressive movement's narrative of race in America, as if operating in reaction is the best use of their energy. On a given day, if there's a documented instance of police brutality, a black man revealed to be wrongly imprisoned by a DNA test, and an inane remark made by Al Sharpton, the last is most likely to be mentioned on Fox News or talk radio.

Even the more intellectually elevated parts of the movement fall into this trap. Consider how National Review has covered the simultaneous release of Justice Department reports that cleared Ferguson policeman Darren Wilson in the shooting of Michael Brown and indicted law enforcement in that city for myriad abuses. I single out the publication not because its coverage on this subject is the worst I encountered—far from it—but due to its singular place in movement conservatism and its efforts to publish different kinds of thoughtful conservatives, including some who eloquently challenge its core audience on the subject of race.

This is as good as it gets within movement conservatism. With that in mind, here are the posts and articles National Review Online pegged to the release of the Ferguson report:

  • Before the report's release, Heather Mac Donald, a frequent, informed defender of U.S. police agencies, published a preemptive critique. She argued that before DOJ investigators charge Ferguson officials with racism for stopping or arresting a disproportionate number of blacks, they should recognize that blacks there commit more crimes than whites, and that banning police activity that has a disproportionate impact on blacks will make Ferguson less safe for innocents, especially blacks at risk of violent crime.
  • After the report's release, Brendan Bordelon published a post summarizing the reaction of Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke during a Fox News appearance. The lawman characterizes the Justice Department's work as a "witch hunt," says he is "not buying one word of it," and declares that Attorney General Eric Holder has "a genuine hostility ... specifically toward white police officers."
  • Andrew Johnson focused on how the DOJ dispelled various inaccuracies in the activist narrative of Michael Brown's shooting. At the end, though, he added: "The report does find that the Ferguson Police Department exhibited a systemic racial bias in its policing efforts, with its officers singling out and targeting black residents for various violations, and exchanging multiple racist jokes in emails."
  • Roger Clegg declared that the DOJ report vindicated Heather Mac Donald's critique.
  • Andrew McCarthy, relying on intuition and citing no particular evidence, declared the DOJ investigation into Michael Brown's shooting "a pretext" to subject Ferguson's police to a full-scale investigation, all so that DOJ could drum up violations and usurp local control.
  • Peter Kirsanow declared the DOJ report "a farce, wrapped in a fraud, inside a sham." He focuses on its assertion of racial discrimination. "The report has accomplished its objective," he concluded. "It’s smeared police officers across the country, thereby giving the administration an excuse to exert greater control over local police departments. And it gives credence to the toxic storyline that the country as a whole remains nearly indistinguishable from 1960s Selma."
  • Ryan Lovelace posted to highlight remarks by Attorney General Holder, who pledged to do "everything he can" to change Ferguson's culture of law enforcement, adding that his agency is "prepared to use all the powers that we have, all the power that we have, to ensure that the situation changes there.”
  • Thomas Sowell wrote a column disparaging the Ferguson report for relying on disparate impact, writing as if the DOJ documented nothing other than a disproportionate percentage of black people being stopped or arrested. In fact, one could ignore every part of the DOJ report that alleged disparate impact or even racism and still have a long list of alarming abuses to reflect upon.
Only one National Review writer, Ian Tuttle, grapples with some of Ferguson's many abuses and gives the publication's readers a peek at what all the outrage is about. "In the interest of expanding its treasury, Ferguson has employed its police department ... as an enforcer of the myriad municipal regulations that, rigorously enforced, nickel-and-dime the citizenry to the local government’s benefit," he writes. "This is the injustice on which the Justice Department has stumbled, which helps to explain the city’s racial tensions—and which merits urgent correction."

That position is sufficient for pursuing reform. The left should recognize that it can work with conservatives like Tuttle to improve the lot of poor black people. Progressives need not reach agreement with conservatives on an ur-narrative of race in America to collaborate—not if their partner really favors "urgent correction" to specific ills. But for our purposes, it is noteworthy that even Tuttle, who sees injustice that merits urgent correction, doesn't focus his piece on it. His title is, "The Injustice the DOJ Uncovered in Ferguson Wasn’t Racism." His article is more aimed at proving that the left's narrative of race in America is wrong than grappling with the rampant violation of civil rights, documented instances of excessive force, and other misconduct. The old joke is that if a meteor were headed toward earth, The New York Times would headline its article, "World to End, Women and Minorities Hardest Hit." And National Review would doubtless be there missing the point as much with their retort: "The Impending End of Human Life Isn't Due to Racism."

Conservatives ought to regard the abuses in Ferguson as worthy of attention in their own right, not just insofar as the left's analysis of them is (ostensibly) wrongheaded.

If one accepts every premise advanced by the authors of National Review's coverage, including the most dubious—if we treat the Michael Brown investigation as a cynical pretext; presume Eric Holder hates every white cop in America; ignore statistics about racially disproportionate stops as inconclusive; and presume that people are being mistreated wholly due to their poverty rather than their race; even then, it remains the case that hundreds of Americans have had their Constitutional rights or basic liberties violated by governing elites with perverse incentives to cite, fine, and jail them as often and as expensively as possible.

That is an outrage. And what amounts to the exoneration of Officer Darren Wilson—itself a legitimate news story, from the subset of self-described witnesses who lied about what happened in the altercation with Michael Brown to the media treatment Wilson received—should not be treated as more important than all injustices that hundreds of poor, disproportionately black Ferguson residents experienced. Having criticized the protestors who brought the nation's attention to Ferguson and the DOJ investigators who've done more than anyone to document serious abuses there, how would conservatives suggest uncovering and remedying egregious Constitutional violations in municipalities like it?

I've never seen the question answered well. And I can't help but wonder if the American Fergusons would be ignored entirely if conservatives were running the country, just as present-day injustices tend to be downplayed or left out of conservative media when they cut against the conservative counter-narrative on race.

In Ferguson, I'm open to solutions that would be more effective than the DOJ coercing law enforcement into a series of hit-and-miss reforms. But are there superior alternatives? As best as I can tell, there are not competing liberal and conservative plans for protecting the Constitutional rights of blacks from small-town elites. There is just the center-left approach and conservative complaints about it.

Over at Reason, Scott Shackford, a regular critic of Eric Holder's Justice Department, wrote an article that treated civil-rights violations as more important than attacking the Democratic Party or fighting over racism narratives. He also points out that Ferguson isn't the only jurisdiction that piles criminal charges on top of one another in an opaque system that steamrolls Americans:

The Department of Justice threatens defendants with dozens of federal charges that could put them behind bars for decades unless they accept plea deals and avoid a trial, a punishment for trying to defend themselves. Department of Justice prosecutors, working with other agencies like the IRS, seize assets from Americans and resist giving it back even when there's little evidence such Americans have done anything wrong. The DOJ engages in a lot of the same misbehavior found in the Ferguson system of justice—it's just not motivated by race.

Even though the Department of Justice may attack Ferguson's revenue-generating, they are quick to defend the role of their own "Equitable Sharing Program," which encourages law enforcement agencies to seize property and assets by allowing the agencies to keep 80 percent of what they take in the program.

A White House report crafted in the wake of the shooting of Michael Brown and the police's militarized response to protests defended the program, along with others, as "valuable and have provided state and local law enforcement with needed assistance as they carry out their critical missions in helping to keep the American people safe." Attorney General nominee Loretta Lynch defended asset forfeiture as a useful tool for law enforcement at a Senate hearing.

Ferguson's police department participates in this federal program. According to research by The Washington Post, the city has spent more than $100,000 on equipment and weapons paid for with assets seized by police in Ferguson (this also means the federal government has also received money from law enforcement activities in the community as well). The DOJ's press office has not returned calls to find out whether Ferguson would be booted from the program due to its behavior. Ferguson officials have said they will attempt to settle with the Department of Justice, not fight, so probably not. The DOJ has only cut off access to the Equitable Sharing Program to a handful of law enforcement agencies. One of them, Maricopa County in Arizona, is infamous for resistance to attempts by the DOJ to reform the way it deals with immigrants and Latino citizens. It's easy to look at the program and see the DOJ using access to its funds as a carrot/stick to influence the behavior of local law enforcement agencies. This is not inherently a bad thing, but all of this knowledge about how the DOJ operates should cause anybody to look askance at the agency's credibility when it comes to evaluating the accessibility of fiscal propriety of any justice system in the country.

For that matter, the DOJ, just like Ferguson, brags about the millions—billions—of dollars it brings in from settlements and enforcement activities in its annual reports. They put out press releases and hold press conferences. The difference may be that its targets are often rich corporations (but not always, as their actions against a small Long Island vending business shows). The DOJ and state-level prosecutors are looking for big paydays, too, to help bolster the budgets of the governments they serve. My story in Reason's April issue, titled "The Settlement Shakedown," helps explain how this all works out (It's available online now to digital subscribers).

None of this is to dismiss what is clearly racist animus by the people in power in Ferguson. But if every victim described in the DOJ report on Ferguson had been white and the racist comments and e-mails hadn't happened, these incidents would still have been huge violations of the rights of the citizens. Many would argue that these incidents wouldn't have happened at all absent the racial component. I cannot possibly say they're wrong. Every single government in the country is driven to bring in revenue to perpetuate itself, and their targets will most likely be those who will have the hardest times protecting or defending themselves. This often means poor minorities and immigrants, but don't confuse the symptoms with the cause. Racism just one sorting tool for governments to decide who they're going to plunder.
Agree or disagree with the particulars of that article, it illustrates that one can critique the Obama Administration, implicitly criticize Democrats for failing to end federal law-enforcement abuses while running the federal bureaucracy, and complicate the left's racial narrative without treating the abuse of blacks in places like Ferguson as fabrications or afterthoughts. The Democratic Party's failure on these issues could be a vulnerability if the Republican Party didn't have so little to offer. Ferguson is a missed opportunity for the GOP in a long line of them.

There are some conservatives who took the abuses documented in the Ferguson report more seriously. Consider evangelical blogger John Mark Reynolds, who is also provost of Houston Baptist University. After reading the DOJ findings, he wrote:

I believe in order, not riots. I support police as much as possible: they have horrifically difficult jobs. The evils of departments like Ferguson, departments that exist over this entire nation, undermine the support of good people for the police and threaten to precipitate the very revolutionary disorder they “attempt” to halt. As a conservative, I repudiate strong-armed policing that piles up fines and is out of touch with the locality it polices. I repudiate the militarization of the police and the use of unnecessary force. I repudiate using the police to collect revenue. That is disgusting in a republic.

As a Christian, I abhor the abuse of the elderly and the weak that has happened in Ferguson beyond doubt. It is the job of the Christian to stand in solidarity with the poor against the powers of the age. A Christian must cry out against the racist “humor” of the (now fired) police officers who felt safe to “joke” in ways offensive to the people they (allegedly) served. Selma happened in my lifetime but I was just baby. I am man and police forces like Ferguson exist: there is a duty to speak up and demand justice. The devils will come in the details about what to do, but angels know something must be done.

I would not agree with my “left-of-center” friends on all their proposed solutions to Ferguson, but surely all Christians can agree that the police culture of Ferguson was and is sick and must change. The elite of Ferguson have not fixed the problem and the state of Missouri has ignored it. It is time for the Department of Justice to act.
That strikes me as the appropriate level of alarm, and "it's time for the Department of Justice to act," seems like a reasonable conclusion. If you disagree and oppose DOJ remedies, I'd only ask this: What exactly is your alternative?
 

GoIrish41

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I think there is an argument to be made, that the problem is NOT one of race, but one of economic status. If you really want to clean up the disconnect between police and the citizenry, then I think a good start would be for some group to do a statistical study of how prevalent these same issues are, in poor white neighborhoods. If there is a large disparity, then it would be safe to draw the conclusion that race plays a large part in that. But if they are reasonably close, statistically, then I think you have to say that the problems stem more from economic "class", than race. Either way, it is wrong. But people are trying to portray Ferguson as some kind of microcosm of what is happening all over the country. Well, in Ferguson poor might equal black, but that is not true all over the country.

There may be an argument to be made, but that argument cannot be made on vague anecdotal information, speculation and distractions from the issue at hand. I would like to see the statistical study that you suggest and agree that it would greatly inform the debate. But, I have never seen such a study so in its absence, we can't just assume that the reality of poor whites and poor blacks is identical when it comes to their treatment by the institutions that control their neighborhoods. On the other hand, there are countless studies that point to the idea that blacks are singled out in our society. They are arrested, convicted, and imprisoned at higher rates than whites. They are unemployed at higher rates and receive lesser educations. If there is a thorough and balanced study that suggests otherwise, I would be happy to read it. But, until then, I will only comment on the wealth of evidence that suggests that blacks are treated different than whites.

I would also suggest that there is ample evidence that, on balance, "poor equals black" all over the country. There are certainly anecdotal examples that deviate from this norm, but it generally seems to be true. And, yes there are lots of poor white people too, but I have seen no evidence that they are singled out like black people are in this country. But again, if there is evidence to the contrary, I'd be glad to see it. I would love to be wrong on this issue ... I just don't think that I am.
 
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BGIF

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Ferguson police chief resigns - CNN.com

By Sara Sidner and Catherine E. Shoichet, CNN
Updated 5:47 PM ET, Wed March 11, 2015


...

"It is with profound sadness that I am announcing I am stepping down from my position as chief of police for the city of Ferguson, Missouri," Jackson said, adding that serving the city as police chief "has been an honor and a privilege."

He will receive a severance payment and health insurance for one year, with Lt. Col. Al Eickhoff assuming his duties during a nationwide search for a new chief, the city said.

Jackson appeared to consider resigning in the past, but stayed put up to now.

Ferguson City Manager John Shaw stepped down Tuesday following the Justice Department report, which exposed problems in the city's policing tactics. The report mentions both men by name.

Jackson did not respond Wednesday to repeated requests from CNN for comment.

...

Two police officers resigned last week and the city's top court clerk was fired in connection with racist emails, city spokesman Jeff Small said on Friday.

...

Jackson started working for Ferguson in 2010.
 
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kmoose

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There may be an argument to be made, but that argument cannot be made on vague anecdotal information, speculation and distractions from the issue at hand. I would like to see the statistical study that you suggest and agree that it would greatly inform the debate. But, I have never seen such a study so in its absence, we can't just assume that the reality of poor whites and poor blacks is identical when it comes to their treatment by the institutions that control their neighborhoods. On the other hand, there are countless studies that point to the idea that blacks are singled out in our society. They are arrested, convicted, and imprisoned at higher rates than whites. They are unemployed at higher rates and receive lesser educations. If there is a thorough and balanced study that suggests otherwise, I would be happy to read it. But, until then, I will only comment on the wealth of evidence that suggests that blacks are treated different than whites.

I would also suggest that there is ample evidence that, on balance, "poor equals black" all over the country. There are certainly anecdotal examples that deviate from this norm, but it generally seems to be true. And, yes there are lots of poor white people too, but I have seen no evidence that they are singled out like black people are in this country. But again, if there is evidence to the contrary, I'd be glad to see it. I would love to be wrong on this issue ... I just don't think that I am.

And I would submit that you are wrong.

Poverty Rate by Race/Ethnicity | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

According to this, only 27% of those living in poverty are black. Now, it's not that 27% is a low, or irrelevant statistic. What it means is that 3 out of every 4 people living in poverty in the US are NOT black. So poor does NOT equal black.
 

GoIrish41

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And I would submit that you are wrong.

Poverty Rate by Race/Ethnicity | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

According to this, only 27% of those living in poverty are black. Now, it's not that 27% is a low, or irrelevant statistic. What it means is that 3 out of every 4 people living in poverty in the US are NOT black. So poor does NOT equal black.

Well 12.6 % of the population is African American so if 27% of all poor people in the country are black they are poor at a much higher rate than non black's. So applying a little tool called math it seems that I am, in point of fact, not wrong after all. The only way you would be right is if there were an equal number of whites and blacks, which of course there are not. Your evidence more than proves my point so thanks Moose for the assist.
 

kmoose

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Well 12.6 % of the population is African American so if 27% of all poor people in the country are black they are poor at a much higher rate than non black's. So applying a little tool called math it seems that I am, in point of fact, not wrong after all. The only way you would be right is if there were an equal number of whites and blacks, which of course there are not. Your evidence more than proves my point so thanks Moose for the assist.

The question was whether or not "poor" is synonymous with "black", all over the country. All your "math" illustrates is that black people are disproportionately poor, compared to white people. It does NOT indicate that a significant majority of poor people are black. You should try buying a new math textbook, maybe?
 

GoIrish41

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The question was whether or not "poor" is synonymous with "black", all over the country. All your "math" illustrates is that black people are disproportionately poor, compared to white people. It does NOT indicate that a significant majority of poor people are black. You should try buying a new math textbook, maybe?

Ok fair enough even though I believe that it was pretty clear that I was saying that there was a higher rate poor blacks. I should have been clearer I suppose.

For comparison I found these stats from 2013.

Poverty rates by race

Black 27.4
Hispanics 26.6%
Whites 9.9%

further a whopping 45.8% of black children under 6 live in poverty compared to 14.4% of white children. So blacks are about 3 times more likely to be poor than whites. Those are some pretty grim numbers no matter how you slice it. Almost to the point that being black is synonymous with being poor. :)
 
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kmoose

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Ok fair enough even though I believe that it was pretty clear that I was saying that there was a higher rate poor blacks. I should have been clearer I suppose.

For comparison I found these stats from 2013.

Poverty rates by race

Black 27.4
Hispanics 26.6%
Whites 9.9%

further a whopping 45.8% of black children under 6 live in poverty compare to 14.4% of white children. So blacks are about 3 times more likely to be poor than whites. Those are some pretty grim numbers no matter how you slice it. Almost to the point that being black is synonymous with being poor. :)


No, it doesn't. For black being synonymous with poor, an overwhelming number of poor people would have to be black. And that's simply not the case. It may be the case that Blacks are more likely to be poor, but there are 3 non-Black poor people for every one poor Black person.

As an example: Black is more synonymous with "NFL running back", than it is with "poor".
 

GoIrish41

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No, it doesn't. For black being synonymous with poor, an overwhelming number of poor people would have to be black. And that's simply not the case. It may be the case that Blacks are more likely to be poor, but there are 3 non-Black poor people for every one poor Black person.

As an example: Black is more synonymous with "NFL running back", than it is with "poor".

Apparently you missed the smiley face. Lighten up bro ... You are a white man in America. Life is good ... Statistically speaking.
 
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