Students at UC Irvine vote to ban American flag

[irishff1014]

Keep in mind this is the student union of the campus and not the formal administration.

The administration at UCI actually opposed the measure and asked the student union "executive cabinet" to veto. Yesterday, the executive cabinet did just that.

Good for the Admin standing up.

 

[irishff1014]

I mean, I agree that the preamble to the resolution was kind of douchey, but is it really newsworthy or outrage worthy that a couple of college kids tried to channel their inner Chomsky?

I think the news outlets that picked this story up tried to sensationalize it by presenting it as "UCI votes to BAN the American Flag". But if you look at what actually happened, it's 1) UCI students write stupid preamble and 2) vote to remove flags from the wall of one room (administration says no). It just seems like a non-story to me, unless you stretch the facts to present it in the worst possible way.

That's all they are good for. They really aren't news outlets they stir the pot to get more views. I have said since i was in high school and will continue to say that the Media is our own worst enemy.

 

[Cackalacky]

My problem with it is that they specifically stated



Because the flag represents a country that could NEVER be referred to as a "melting pot", due to its long history of shunning immigrants, right?

Tolerance of immigrants and other religions outside of Protestantism has NEVER been one of Americas strong suits.

 

[kmoose]

Tolerance of immigrants and other religions outside of Protestantism has NEVER been one of Americas strong suits.

I am pretty sure that there are a lot of Catholics, Jews, Methodists, Mormons, and Baptists who would disagree with you.

Have there been isolated incidents (isolated in reference to the entire 200+ years of history for our country) of intolerance? Sure. But, overall, all of the above mentioned religions have flourished in America.

 

[Irish YJ]

I am pretty sure that there are a lot of Catholics, Jews, Methodists, Mormons, and Baptists who would disagree with you.

Have there been isolated incidents (isolated in reference to the entire 200+ years of history for our country) of intolerance? Sure. But, overall, all of the above mentioned religions have flourished in America.

No beheadings either!!

 

[IrishLax]

I am pretty sure that there are a lot of Catholics, Jews, Methodists, Mormons, and Baptists who would disagree with you.

Have there been isolated incidents (isolated in reference to the entire 200+ years of history for our country) of intolerance? Sure. But, overall, all of the above mentioned religions have flourished in America.

I agree with Cack. I don't think this is accurate. This country has a long and storied history of serious discrimination against non-Protestants. I'm only informed enough to speak on anti-Catholicism.

First, I'd strongly recommended the book "How the Irish became White" which is a great historical perspective on Catholic immigrants to the United States and how they were treated... and how they worked to drastically improve their lot through unions, the Democrat party, etc. It's quite weird think how staunch Catholics now are largely Republican just because of the abortion issue despite Catholic principles being generally liberal outside of their feelings on everything sexual.

Second, Anti-Catholicism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Third,

 

[kmoose]

I agree with Cack. I don't think this is accurate. This country has a long and storied history of serious discrimination against non-Protestants. I'm only informed enough to speak on anti-Catholicism.

First, I'd strongly recommended the book "How the Irish became White" which is a great historical perspective on Catholic immigrants to the United States and how they were treated... and how they worked to drastically improve their lot through unions, the Democrat party, etc. It's quite weird think how staunch Catholics now are largely Republican just because of the abortion issue despite Catholic principles being generally liberal outside of their feelings on everything sexual.

Second, Anti-Catholicism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Third,

One in four Americans (78.2 million) is Catholic. so how bad could it be?


Also:

Does this means that there is a serious anti-sailor bias in this country?

 

[IrishLax]

One in four Americans (78.2 million) is Catholic. so how bad could it be?


Also:

Does this means that there is a serious anti-sailor bias in this country?

I can't tell if you're serious.

 

[kmoose]

I can't tell if you're serious.

Kind of:

I mean, how did the Catholic Church grow to include one out of every four Americans, if there was so much intolerance of them? It makes more sense that there were isolated incidents, and also (perhaps) short periods of time, when the Catholic Church was out of favor. But I just don't see how an institution that was the target of so much intolerance grew to be what the Catholic Church is today.


And a few signs about "No (insert particular group here) need apply" is probably more indicative of humor through hyperbole, than any actual long term intolerance.

We don't have a perfect history by any stretch of the imagination. But the American flag is NOT a symbol of repression to anyone other than those malcontents who want everyone to listen to what they have to say.

 

[GoIrish41]

One in four Americans (78.2 million) is Catholic. so how bad could it be?


Also:

Does this means that there is a serious anti-sailor bias in this country?

There certainly used to be in places like Norfolk back in the day

 

[IrishLax]

Kind of:

I mean, how did the Catholic Church grow to include one out of every four Americans, if there was so much intolerance of them?

That's like saying "how did Blacks grow to be one out of every seven Americans if there was so much intolerance of them?" ... population demographics and growth have literally nothing to do with whether or not that subset of society experiences discrimination. For example, there are parts of the Muslim world where the "Shia" minority might be 30%+ but they're discriminated against by the "Sunni" majority (I'm pulling the labels/numbers out of my ass for the moment because I don't have time to look up exact percentages and who is in power where but the point stands).

It makes more sense that there were isolated incidents, and also (perhaps) short periods of time, when the Catholic Church was out of favor. But I just don't see how an institution that was the target of so much intolerance grew to be what the Catholic Church is today.

No. That does not make more sense, at all. Please, at minimum, read the wikipedia link I provided. What you just said is historically inaccurate.

From the 1600s until around 1940 there was widespread, active, and serious discrimination against Catholics in the United States (and the preceding colonies). It's well documented in multiple sources. It's also the entire reason why Maryland acted as a "haven" for Catholics... why the heck would you need a "haven" if Catholics were welcome everywhere?

Pre WWII Catholics (and specifically Catholic immigrants) were actively discriminated against and stereotyped. The KKK had Catholics as target 1B if Blacks were target 1A. This is not an exaggeration, and there is quite a bit of history with the Klan clashing with Notre Dame in Indiana in a time when the vast majority of males in Indiana were Klan members.

Post WWII Catholic discrimination started going away in a hurry. Over the next 4 decades it basically be came a specter of the past. But for 350ish years it was the norm.

And a few signs about "No (insert particular group here) need apply" is probably more indicative of humor through hyperbole, than any actual long term intolerance.

Disagree but whatever... sure, let's just table anecdotes because they're irrelevant. It sure as fuck isn't indicative of "humor through hyperbole" but it's really not worth getting into.

We don't have a perfect history by any stretch of the imagination. But the American flag is NOT a symbol of repression to anyone other than those malcontents who want everyone to listen to what they have to say.

No, it's certainly not. It's a symbol of a lot of things but it's quite a leap to make it a symbol of "repression," period.

 

[BGIF]

Kind of:

...


And a few signs about "No (insert particular group here) need apply" is probably more indicative of humor through hyperbole, than any actual long term intolerance.

...

"more indicative of humor"

How WASPish of you.

Did you get your history from the Stanford Band?


My ancestors experienced it first hand. They experienced genicide on one side of the Atlantic by WASPs but were thankful to be merely discriminated against here by WASPs.

As a youth in the 50's and 60's, the 1950's and 1960's, I marched in the Holy Name Parade each year along with representatives from all the Catholic Churches in the county. As a young boy I asked my father why we marched each year. He replied, "So they will know we're not afraid. We won't be intimidated."

 

[kmoose]

"more indicative of humor"

How WASPish of you.

Did you get your history from the Stanford Band?


My ancestors experienced it first hand. They experienced genicide on one side of the Atlantic by WASPs but were thankful to be merely discriminated against here by WASPs.

As a youth in the 50's and 60's, the 1950's and 1960's, I marched in the Holy Name Parade each year along with representatives from all the Catholic Churches in the county. As a young boy I asked my father why we marched each year. He replied, "So they will know we're not afraid. We won't be intimidated."

As a descendant of German and Irish farmers and railroad workers, I assure you that my ancestors experienced plenty of abuse, as well. But the question is not "Has any minority ever been discriminated against?", because they have. The question is whether or not the US has a history of being a "melting pot"............. and it does. So there is no reason for the students at UCI to try to portray it as a symbol of "non-inclusiveness".

 

[kmoose]

That's like saying "how did Blacks grow to be one out of every seven Americans if there was so much intolerance of them?" ... population demographics and growth have literally nothing to do with whether or not that subset of society experiences discrimination.

No, it's not. Not at all. People choose to be Catholic. People do not choose to be Black.

 

[IrishinSyria]

What exactly the American flag represents U.S. going to vary from person to person. For many, it does represent, at least in part, a history of oppression. It represents a lot more than that for me. But there's no reason why my subjective beliefs should outweigh anyone else's. It's certainly not crazy for, say, someone of Cherokee decent to view the Colors with something less than patriotic fervor.

 

[IrishLax]

No, it's not. Not at all. People choose to be Catholic. People do not choose to be Black.

.............

With all due respect, because you and I have been posting on here for a very long time and I can't remember a single time we've ever gotten into it, but you're way off base here. And I don't know if you really want to get into the weeds or if we should just drop it.

But historically* children are raised as part of a religion. Most people are born into a religion the same way they are a "race" and it's at least as important culturally to them as any other factor of their "race." So your implied premise saying it's not the same thing is that people being able to choose a religion means that if persecution was bad enough they would convert.

That makes literally no sense, as evidenced by the the hundreds and thousands and possibly millions of people who have chosen death/torture over conversion. The steady Catholic population in the country is also the result (historically) of the emphasis on large families and no birth control, among other factors. Again, this is all just a roundabout way of saying population demographics are completely irrelevant to whether someone is persecuted.

And towards being able to "choose" a religion but not race, that's also bullshit for a lot of other reasons. In many cases you can't decouple them. An ethnically Jewish person could stop practicing, shun his whole family, and convert to Christianity and still be labeled a Jew. You cannot choose skin pigmentation, but you can choose everything else. It's well documented MANY Irish/Italian immigrants choose English names when they immigrated and stopped practicing Catholicism to avoid the discrimination... which is a truly perfect counterpoint to your whole "if there was discrimination, why didn't they.." the answer is many did.

*Those numbers don't hold true anymore in the information age. But in the time period we're talking about, it's completely true.

 

[IrishinSyria]

No, it's not. Not at all. People choose to be Catholic. People do not choose to be Black.

This doesn't really help your overall point re: the flag.

 

[kmoose]

.............

With all due respect, because you and I have been posting on here for a very long time and I can't remember a single time we've ever gotten into it, but you're way off base here. And I don't know if you really want to get into the weeds or if we should just drop it.

But historically* children are raised as part of a religion. Most people are born into a religion the same way they are a "race" and it's at least as important culturally to them as any other factor of their "race." So your implied premise saying it's not the same thing is that people being able to choose a religion means that if persecution was bad enough they would convert.

That makes literally no sense, as evidenced by the the hundreds and thousands and possibly millions of people who have chosen death/torture over conversion. The steady Catholic population in the country is also the result (historically) of the emphasis on large families and no birth control, among other factors. Again, this is all just a roundabout way of saying population demographics are completely irrelevant to whether someone is persecuted.

And towards being able to "choose" a religion but not race, that's also bullshit for a lot of other reasons. In many cases you can't decouple them. An ethnically Jewish person could stop practicing, shun his whole family, and convert to Christianity and still be labeled a Jew. You cannot choose skin pigmentation, but you can choose everything else. It's well documented MANY Irish/Italian immigrants choose English names when they immigrated and stopped practicing Catholicism to avoid the discrimination... which is a truly perfect counterpoint to your whole "if there was discrimination, why didn't they.." the answer is many did.

*Those numbers don't hold true anymore in the information age. But in the time period we're talking about, it's completely true.

My point was not that there has never been discrimination. My point was that the US has always been tolerant of religions. Tolerant, as in they allow them to exist. History is littered with nations that outlawed certain religions. THAT is how I would define intolerance, in regards to a nations attitude toward religion.

 

[Irish YJ]

need a new flag?

 

[Irish YJ]

What exactly the American flag represents U.S. going to vary from person to person. For many, it does represent, at least in part, a history of oppression. It represents a lot more than that for me. But there's no reason why my subjective beliefs should outweigh anyone else's. It's certainly not crazy for, say, someone of Cherokee decent to view the Colors with something less than patriotic fervor.

My thoughts, the only people that have a right to bitch about the US flag are the Indians.

A few though, fly the American flag, or some semblance of it. The Navajo reservation I visited as a kid had the American flag flying, but it had some type of symbol in the middle.

 

[IrishLax]

My point was not that there has never been discrimination. My point was that the US has always been tolerant of religions. Tolerant, as in they allow them to exist. History is littered with nations that outlawed certain religions. THAT is how I would define intolerance, in regards to a nations attitude toward religion.

I guess I missed the boat on this. My bad. I was responding to this post as a standalone:

I am pretty sure that there are a lot of Catholics, Jews, Methodists, Mormons, and Baptists who would disagree with you.

Have there been isolated incidents (isolated in reference to the entire 200+ years of history for our country) of intolerance? Sure. But, overall, all of the above mentioned religions have flourished in America.

If your point is that the United States as an institution (and by proxy its flag) has always stood for inclusion, opportunity, and freedom then I totally agree. Historically, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution are incredibly progressive. Specifically, the 1st Amendment rights.

So to warp the flag to be anything other than a symbol of throwing off oppressive Government by a select few and establishing rights and freedoms for people to speak their mind is absurdly revisionist history by those few students.

 

[IrishinSyria]

My thoughts, the only people that have a right to bitch about the US flag are the Indians.

A few though, fly the American flag, or some semblance of it. The Navajo reservation I visited as a kid had the American flag flying, but it had some type of symbol in the middle.

I guess the space between us is that I don't see a need (or feel entitled to) sort out who has a "right" to feel a certain way about the flag.

 

[ulukinatme]

I mean, how did the Catholic Church grow to include one out of every four Americans, if there was so much intolerance of them?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fUspLVStPbk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[TDHeysus]

they should put this flag in its place


<a href="http://s276.photobucket.com/user/rwoods2k/media/dtom-small_zpsfvn4xgrc.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk19/rwoods2k/dtom-small_zpsfvn4xgrc.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo dtom-small_zpsfvn4xgrc.jpg"/></a>

 

[Bishop2b5]

Future UC Irvine students having a prom.

High School Students ‘Really Intense With Politics’ Vote for Communism-Themed Prom | Video | TheBlaze.com

 

[JTLA]

Vetoed

Vetoed

self delete - already discussed