2016 Presidential Horse Race

[GowerND11]

Forgive me if I am completely WAY off base, but I have to ask this. Isn't a vaccination used so the vaccinated don't get infected? Therefore, can't I make the argument that those that refuse to vaccinate their children, are only putting their children at risk, and not the general public?

What I mean is, if I am in a room of 20, and all but 1 are vaccinated, isn't the risk on the 1 and not the other 19?

 

[wizards8507]

Dude that's because most people are vaccinated.

Exactly! If your kid is vaccinated he's not going to get a disease from MY kid, so my choice has no impact on you.

 

[wizards8507]

Forgive me if I am completely WAY off base, but I have to ask this. Isn't a vaccination used so the vaccinated don't get infected? Therefore, can't I make the argument that those that refuse to vaccinate their children, are only putting their children at risk, and not the general public?

What I mean is, if I am in a room of 20, and all but 1 are vaccinated, isn't the risk on the 1 and not the other 19?

THIS! An unvaccinated kid isn't going to give a vaccinated kid measles because that kid is vaccinated.

Yes, it can happen, but it's crazy longshot odds. That's why it only pops up in places with hoards of people like Disneyland.

 

[PerthDomer]

The issue is if you're in a room of ten people who are unaccounted out of twenty you will defina tell get exposed to the bug. Depending on the vaccine you have a one to five percent shot of getting sick. This is ignoring your baby or kid with leukemia who can't get vaccinated or the kid who dies of measles encephalitis because his parents are morons.

 

[GoIrish41]

Exactly! If your kid is vaccinated he's not going to get a disease from MY kid, so my choice has no impact on you.

As has been pointed out already, there are some people with medical conditions that prevent them from being safely vaccinated. Prior to receiving vaccinations, infants are unprotected and at risk. Also, there are the dummies who don't get their kids vaccinated who are at risk. I've read recently that there is a 90 percent chance of getting measels for an unvaccinated person who is in the same room with someone who is infected even if they don't come in physical contact.

 

[GowerND11]

THIS! An unvaccinated kid isn't going to give a vaccinated kid measles because that kid is vaccinated.

Yes, it can happen, but it's crazy longshot odds. That's why it only pops up in places with hoards of people like Disneyland.

My cousin hasn't vaccinated her little girl (she's 4 now). I think it's dumb, most of my family thinks it's dumb, but it's her choice. To be honest, she is just being lazy and it isn't because she fears autism or some other stupid reason. But I'm never avoiding the little girl. I still hug her, and play with her and everything.

I just worry if WE might get her sick sometime.

 

[PerthDomer]

Is it her business to refuse blood transfusions for her girl? No its child abuse.

 

[Ndaccountant]

THIS! An unvaccinated kid isn't going to give a vaccinated kid measles because that kid is vaccinated.

Yes, it can happen, but it's crazy longshot odds. That's why it only pops up in places with hoards of people like Disneyland.

I'll be honest.....I go back and forth on this one. The only thing that makes me lean towards the mandate crowd is the children. Individualism is a key tenant of my political beliefs and I cannot shake the idea that those poor infants in Illinois could have an altered life. That same infant didn't get to practice individualism but had to absorb the impact of his/her parents idea of individualism. The infant obviously is incapable of deciding whether or not to take on that risk. But since these vaccinations can significantly reduce the risks of horrible diseases and even death, I error on the side of providing them the greatest chance at living a normal life in order for them to practice their forms of individualism and peruse their happiness in the future.

 

[GATTACA!]

THIS! An unvaccinated kid isn't going to give a vaccinated kid measles because that kid is vaccinated.

Yes, it can happen, but it's crazy longshot odds. That's why it only pops up in places with hoards of people like Disneyland.

NOT TRUE!

Vaccines are not 100% effective. You can still catch many of these diseases even if you are vaccinated. The 95% and 99% numbers being thrown around take into account crowd immunization. Also allowing these diseases to survive and reproduce gives them a much higher chance of mutating and being able to infect anyone who is vaccinated.

 

[RDU Irish]

I can't speak for all vaccines but one dose of the MMR vaccine is about 95% effective and the recommended two doses are about 99%. It isn't 100% effective but if everyone is vaccinated with two doses it is pretty damn close.

Looked at the CDC site yesterday after stopping by here for my comments. I think the mumps portion of the MMR had 85% effective on first round and second round pushed it up close to 100%. Every vaccine is different and few are this effective I believe. There is also the issue of the vaccine meaning lesser impact if you get the disease, I think chicken pox/shingles are examples of you may still get it, just not nearly as bad.

Everyone also seems to ignore the FACT that pretty much anyone can sign a "belief waiver" in order to bypass vaccine requirements. This is why they are reporting 40% vaccination rates in all kinds of daycares and schools in southern California.

 

[GowerND11]

Is it her business to refuse blood transfusions for her girl? No its child abuse.

It is her business. Ask Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[RDU Irish]

Liberty is most easily taken when it is in the name of "the kids" or "protection."

Are people here saying we should eliminate "belief waivers" and force vaccines on all children? Because that is not what happens to day and your are calling for a change to policy, not the status quo.

 

[PerthDomer]

JW kids get blood transfusions when necessary. It's a pretty standard court order that's uniformly granted

 

[DonnieNarco]

Some of y'all need to read about herd immunity.

 

[GowerND11]

As has been pointed out already, there are some people with medical conditions that prevent them from being safely vaccinated. Prior to receiving vaccinations, infants are unprotected and at risk. Also, there are the dummies who don't get their kids vaccinated who are at risk. I've read recently that there is a 90 percent chance of getting measels for an unvaccinated person who is in the same room with someone who is infected even if they don't come in physical contact.

Even though I'm vaccinated I can still transmit a disease though can't I? So therefore, if someone can't get vaccinated (infant or sick) they can still get sick through me can they not?

NOT TRUE!

Vaccines are not 100% effective. You can still catch many of these diseases even if you are vaccinated. The 95% and 99% numbers being thrown around take into account crowd immunization. Also allowing these diseases to survive and reproduce gives them a much higher chance of mutating and being able to infect anyone who is vaccinated.

True, but if I am around someone who isn't vaccinated who is more likely to get an illness? Them.


I am a firm believer in vaccinations. I think people who don't get their children vaccinated are dumb and irresponsible. I go back and forth, like ND accountant on if it should be mandated.

 

[GATTACA!]

Liberty is most easily taken when it is in the name of "the kids" or "protection."

Are people here saying we should eliminate "belief waivers" and force vaccines on all children? Because that is not what happens to day and your are calling for a change to policy, not the status quo.

I would be 100% behind legislation to enforce vaccinations.

 

[GoIrish41]

Liberty is most easily taken when it is in the name of "the kids" or "protection."

Are people here saying we should eliminate "belief waivers" and force vaccines on all children? Because that is not what happens to day and your are calling for a change to policy, not the status quo.

The conversation began with a discussion about how Rand Paul's stated beliefs could cost him politically.

My personal position is that children should not be permitted to go to public schools without proper immunizaitons, period. I don't want to trample on anyone's right to choose whether or not to be immunized, but I also would not want to risk anyone catching a disease at an theme park, ballgame, mall, etc., because of that choice. So, choose as you wish. Part of liberty is living with the consequences of your decisions/actions.

 

[RDU Irish]

I am 100% in support of suing the pants off of people who refuse vaccinations and spread disease. On top of having them pay more for health and liability insurance. And employers, schools and pretty much anyone, denying services to people who refuse vaccines.

Does that not accomplish the same thing as your government intervention?

 

[GATTACA!]

Even though I'm vaccinated I can still transmit a disease though can't I? So therefore, if someone can't get vaccinated (infant or sick) they can still get sick through me can they not?



True, but if I am around someone who isn't vaccinated who is more likely to get an illness? Them.


I am a firm believer in vaccinations. I think people who don't get their children vaccinated are dumb and irresponsible. I go back and forth, like ND accountant on if it should be mandated.

Those are not mutually exclusive. Plus if the person that wasn't immunized gets sick you are now in a room with two contagious people. Your likelihood of being infected just doubled because of their dumbass decision.

Im all for individual freedoms. I dont want the government telling me what i can or can't do. But in a case like this peoples decisions don't just affect themselves. There is a reason we are not allowed to drink and drive or scream fire in a movie theater.

 

[GowerND11]

The conversation began with a discussion about how Rand Paul's stated beliefs could cost him politically.

My personal position is that children should not be permitted to go to public schools without proper immunizaitons, period. I don't want to trample on anyone's right to choose whether or not to be immunized, but I also would not want to risk anyone catching a disease at an theme park, ballgame, mall, etc., because of that choice. So, choose as you wish. Part of liberty is living with the consequences of your decisions/actions.

I think that is what makes this a hard topic for people. I for one, politically speaking, want to allow parents to make a choice themselves on whether to vaccinate or not (Despite some being morons by chosing not to).

My personal, real world, belief is everyone should be vaccinated because it just makes sense.

 

[RDU Irish]

No shirt, no shoes, no service. You can walk around shirtless, you just aren't going to be welcome anywhere but the beach.

 

[woolybug25]

I am 100% in support of suing the pants off of people who refuse vaccinations and spread disease. On top of having them pay more for health and liability insurance. And employers, schools and pretty much anyone, denying services to people who refuse vaccines.

Does that not accomplish the same thing as your government intervention?

So punish the kids for their parent's decisions?

 

[Ndaccountant]

Liberty is most easily taken when it is in the name of "the kids" or "protection."

Are people here saying we should eliminate "belief waivers" and force vaccines on all children? Because that is not what happens to day and your are calling for a change to policy, not the status quo.

What liberty is being take from the kids if they are forced to get vaccines?

 

[GowerND11]

So punish the kids for their parent's decisions?

C'mon Wooly, that's how it works.

 

[GATTACA!]

So punish the kids for their parent's decisions?

Guess what those kids are going to do when they grow up and have kids?

Get them vaccinated because they understand how shitty it was growing up and not being able to do things the vaccinated kids were able to do.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I am 100% in support of suing the pants off of people who refuse vaccinations and spread disease. On top of having them pay more for health and liability insurance. And employers, schools and pretty much anyone, denying services to people who refuse vaccines.

Does that not accomplish the same thing as your government intervention?

No it doesn't.

All it takes is one infant death, or one infant to become blinded for this to be about the infants rights and liberty instead of the parents forcing the liberty onto their children.

 

[RDU Irish]

So punish the kids for their parent's decisions?

Yes. Don't we already do that? I mean, if we don't take a newborn baby away from a drugged out irresponsible mother, why do we think we are going to force vaccines at gun point?

Open a vaccinated only daycare in southern Cali right now and you can probably charge whatever you want. I also bet peds offices are running out of vaccines since this public health scare will be enough to make half the non-vaccinated crowd come to their senses.

 

[woolybug25]

Yes. Don't we already do that? I mean, if we don't take a newborn baby away from a drugged out irresponsible mother, why do we think we are going to force vaccines at gun point?

What??? I have no idea how these two things are similar and I honestly don't really understand your point.

Open a vaccinated only daycare in southern Cali right now and you can probably charge whatever you want. I also bet peds offices are running out of vaccines since this public health scare will be enough to make half the non-vaccinated crowd come to their senses.

In regards to the pediatricians, I'm not sure you understand how they roll out vaccinations.

 

[MartyIrish]

No it doesn't.

All it takes is one infant death, or one infant to become blinded for this to be about the infants rights and liberty instead of the parents forcing the liberty onto their children.

Ahhhh yes.....IF WE CAN SAVE ONE CHILD....

Sorry, 644 cases in 2014 isn't enough for me to allow government to force people to immunize their kids.

644 in a country of over 300 million. Say that out loud.

While I vaccinate my kids, I'll be damned if someone forces it. Don't wanna allow them in certain schools? fine. But you also don't get to take my tax dollars.

Public schools take our money. That alone gives me the right to send my child there.


There is no "problem" here. There is no "outbreak".....644 cases.



By the way, what's lost in all this is the immigration issue that likely leads to this. While kids in other countries may appear to be more vaccinated....the ones in CA may not be and they bring over different strains.



Vaccinate your kids. But I won't support government mandates

 

[MartyIrish]

Yes. Don't we already do that? I mean, if we don't take a newborn baby away from a drugged out irresponsible mother, why do we think we are going to force vaccines at gun point?

Open a vaccinated only daycare in southern Cali right now and you can probably charge whatever you want. I also bet peds offices are running out of vaccines since this public health scare will be enough to make half the non-vaccinated crowd come to their senses.

I like the way you think!


and also open one for non-vax kids!


We'll be millionaires