[NFL] vBook: Colts vs Patriots (Deflategate)

[irishfan]

I hadn't seen that quote so I stand corrected (even though it's hearsay). But I still maintain it's not nearly the same as this situation although I do feel like Rodgers should be reprimanded through a minor fine.

Agreed on the hearsay part, which has probably kept it quiet in the media. You can't really run with that quote, although clearly it's not 100% made up by the CBS guys.

I wouldn't be surprised if the refs just didn't really measure the footballs pre-game. Has the NFL commented on that? Or has it just been sources that say they were measured pre-game? I'm not too inclined to believe any leaked sources right now.

In Belichick's presser, he implied multiple times he didn't know if the refs did measure the footballs or not. Wouldn't shock me if they didn't.

 

[wizards8507]

In Belichick's presser, he implied multiple times he didn't know if the refs did measure the footballs or not. Wouldn't shock me if they didn't.

That's my best guess in this whole thing. I highly doubt ANYONE checks the football with an actual gauge unless someone (i.e. the Colts) complains. I'm guessing it's Tom Brady or whoever the quarterback is going in and doing a "feel test."

 

[gkIrish]

I posted that quote like nine pages ago. I believe you RESPONDED to my posting of that quote.

I believe you posted the quote I just posted. And I don't believe a word that comes out of your mouth on this issue so sorry I'm not sorry.

 

[gkIrish]

Agreed on the hearsay part, which has probably kept it quiet in the media. You can't really run with that quote, although clearly it's not 100% made up by the CBS guys.

I wouldn't be surprised if the refs just didn't really measure the footballs pre-game. Has the NFL commented on that? Or has it just been sources that say they were measured pre-game? I'm not too inclined to believe any leaked sources right now.

In Belichick's presser, he implied multiple times he didn't know if the refs did measure the footballs or not. Wouldn't shock me if they didn't.

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't check all the balls every game. But considering the reports that the NFL tried to catch the Patriots with their pants down at halftime I suspect a full check was made prior to this game.

 

[gkIrish]

Even if they intentionally did it (which I don't believe they did--see my other posts on that), all of this presupposes that a deflated ball is advantageous. Aaron Rodgers just came out saying he overinflates his footballs all the time to see if he can get away with it, just because he prefers it that way. Should the Packers lose draft picks?


Aaron Rodgers of Green Bay Packers upset referees take air out of footballs - ESPN

Here's your post

 

[irishfan]

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't check all the balls every game. But considering the reports that the NFL tried to catch the Patriots with their pants down at halftime I suspect a full check was made prior to this game.

There was also a story released yesterday on this, with NFL sources saying that was completely false. This story has been so frustrating. ESPN, FOX, NBC all have reported conflicting things.

Going to try and re-find that article now.

 

[irishfan]

There was also a story released yesterday on this, with NFL sources saying that was completely false. This story has been so frustrating. ESPN, FOX, NBC all have reported conflicting things.

Going to try and re-find that article now.

Sources: DeflateGate was not an NFL sting operation - Newsday

 

[woolybug25]

Always makes me laugh when people call the Patriots cheaters. Rod Woodson was saying this on ESPN the other day about how there's always something going on with Patriot cheating allegations, then proceeded to try and rattle off all of the Patriots cheating scandals....he listed just Spygate and this. Spygate was one of the most overblown things around. Bill Cowher literally said about a week ago that everyone in the league was doing it. They've had the "cheaters" label on them ever since.

People have literally pounced on this story because they want the Patriots to be guilty. The Vikings and Panthers were both caught heating up footballs on the sideline this season and there were no repercussions. Rodgers said he has balls pumped up over 13.5 and hopes the refs don't measure them. It's ridiculous.

So instead of addressing the fact that all of these oddities would have had to occur for it not to have happened, you instead try to justify the past cheating?

Slight of hand.

Even if other teams cheated, they aren't on trial here, the Patriots are... and their coach and QB are giving press conferences that are either claiming massive coincidence and bad luck, Ooooorrrr they are complete liars and are trying to hide their indiscretions. I vote the latter.

 

[Nick Setta]

Patriots fans resulting to "BUT THEY DO IT TOO"

When Chancellor destroys Gronk and Sherman exposes "The Greatest Game-Manager of All-Time" It'll be sweet. Oh so sweet.

 

[irishfan]

So instead of addressing the fact that all of these oddities would have had to occur for it not to have happened, you instead try to justify the past cheating?

Slight of hand.

Even if other teams cheated, they aren't on trial here, the Patriots are... and their coach and QB are giving press conferences that are either claiming massive coincidence and bad luck, Ooooorrrr they are complete liars and are trying to hide their indiscretions. I vote the latter.

Already stated in another post recently that for an oddity that would imply guilt, there is something that you can equally counter it with. The Colts footballs measuring at a proper level at halftime is really the only thing that jumps out as suspicious, but I'd like to see the actual measurements (been conflicting info there as well) before assuming anything there.

 

[woolybug25]

Already stated in another post recently that for an oddity that would imply guilt, there is something that you can equally counter it with. The Colts footballs measuring at a proper level at halftime is really the only thing that jumps out as suspicious, but I'd like to see the actual measurements (been conflicting info there as well) before assuming anything there.

Again.... how do you explain that literally every oddity must be equally countered for them not to be guilty? I mean, they would have to have had the most bizarre series of events for all of the coincidences involved with this to have happened without them doing anything wrong. When does that ever happen in real life?

 

[Rhode Irish]

Again.... how do you explain that literally every oddity must be equally countered for them not to be guilty? I mean, they would have to have had the most bizarre series of events for all of the coincidences involved with this to have happened without them doing anything wrong. When does that ever happen in real life?

I think until you have an official accounting of all the events involved here, it is really hard to say. If all the facts are out and literally every fact indicates that there is guilt but there is no smoking gun, I could understand this argument. But at this point the League is in control of the leaks and they are only leaking out things that they think supports wrongdoing. There are a lot of gaps in the information, and there are a lot of contradictions in info that has leaked.

I think at the top of the list of information you need to have an informed opinion about what happened are the actual PSI levels of both the Pats' and Colts' footballs before the game and at halftime and the manner in which they were tested and how the results were recorded. All we have about that right now are contradicting leaked reports about the Patriots PSI levels before the game and at halftime, innuendo about about the Colts' balls, and the assertion of an uninvolved party that the balls were "properly tested" before the game. So I'd rather wait before I decide whether the Pats are being persecuted or they are potentially getting away with something.

 

[irishfan]

Again.... how do you explain that literally every oddity must be equally countered for them not to be guilty? I mean, they would have to have had the most bizarre series of events for all of the coincidences involved with this to have happened without them doing anything wrong. When does that ever happen in real life?

I don't have an explanation. I just don't think there is any definitive argument either way, especially without knowing all of the facts. ESPN says that 11 of the balls were 2 PSI below. NBC said that just they were just 1 PSI below. Need to know the facts. One source said this was a sting operation, another one said the NFL was first told of this right before halftime of the AFC Championship Game. One source said the Ravens were involved, another said they had nothing to do with it. One source said D'Qwell Jackson caught the INT and thought the ball felt funny, but he said that wasn't true.

Right now, all I'm going off is that multiple third-party groups have confirmed Belichick's scientfific reasoning (including a lab literally doing a complete simulation of the 1st half and having the average football drop by 1.8 PSI), and that the closest thing anyone has to proof of tampering is a ballboy going into a bathroom for 90 seconds. That's enough for me to believe them.

 

[woolybug25]

I think until you have an official accounting of all the events involved here, it is really hard to say. If all the facts are out and literally every fact indicates that there is guilt but there is no smoking gun, I could understand this argument. But at this point the League is in control of the leaks and they are only leaking out things that they think supports wrongdoing. There are a lot of gaps in the information, and there are a lot of contradictions in info that has leaked.

I think at the top of the list of information you need to have an informed opinion about what happened are the actual PSI levels of both the Pats' and Colts' footballs before the game and at halftime and the manner in which they were tested and how the results were recorded. All we have about that right now are contradicting leaked reports about the Patriots PSI levels before the game and at halftime, innuendo about about the Colts' balls, and the assertion of an uninvolved party that the balls were "properly tested" before the game. So I'd rather wait before I decide whether the Pats are being persecuted or they are potentially getting away with something.

I think we have plenty of information. Certainly enough to know that a series of events would have coincidentally happened for them to not have some level of culpability. If y'all want to wait for more info because of your fandom, then by all means, press forward.

But the rest of us live in reality.

 

[Rhode Irish]

I think we have plenty of information. Certainly enough to know that a series of events would have coincidentally happened for them to not have some level of culpability. If y'all want to wait for more info because of your fandom, then by all means, press forward.

But the rest of us live in reality.

You don't know what you have. You actually have zero confirmed information, beyond that the balls were under 12.5 PSI at halftime. You can say you have a life, but you must not have a ton else going on if you're so very interested in how much freaking air was in a football in an absolute blowout of a game.

 

[NDWorld247]

I think we have plenty of information. Certainly enough to know that a series of events would have coincidentally happened for them to not have some level of culpability. If y'all want to wait for more info because of your fandom, then by all means, press forward.

But the rest of us live in reality.

Can you outline what information we have and where the source of that information came from? Thanks in advance.

 

[woolybug25]

You don't know what you have. You actually have zero confirmed information.

You just are telling yourself that you need to see the embers to believe the smoke is coming from a fire.

 

[woolybug25]

Can you outline what information we have and where the source of that information came from? Thanks in advance.

There's 15 pages of dialogue here, I have read all of the linked articles and know how to run that funny google machine thing. If you want to see them bulletpointed, then go right ahead.

 

[Rhode Irish]

You just are telling yourself that you need to see the embers to believe the smoke is coming from a fire.

The NFL has a long track record of leaking bad information. I already outlined exactly what information I think is relevant here, and we have only a small amount of it through unconfirmed off-the-record reports and the rest of it we have nothing. So believe whatever you want. It will all come out in the wash.

It must be comforting to take the position of "I will believe what makes me feel the best, so I do not need any actual information to support that belief."

 

[NDWorld247]

There's 15 pages of dialogue here, I have read all of the linked articles and know how to run that funny google machine thing. If you want to see them bulletpointed, then go right ahead.

Ok, I'll start with information we KNOW to be fact. For the purpose of this exercise, I am going to leave out information gleaned from conflicting media reports. Please let me know if any of the information below is not factual and I'll take it off the list.

1. The Patriots balls were under the PSI range (12.5-13.5 PSI) per NFL rules at halftime of their AFC Championship game against the Colts. No one questions this as a fact.

2. Temperature and weather conditions have an effect on the PSI number. This is science.

3. NFL teams provide 12 footballs pre-game to be inspected. The balls are then marked and provided to the teams shortly before kickoff. Another 6-balls are designated K balls for kicking and don't leave the possession of the NFL.

4. The 12 balls submitted by each team may be brand new (i.e. right out of the box) or balls that have been used by the team for weeks, months, or even years. (This is important because anyone who has spent any time around a football program understands the difference between a brand new ball and one that has been in use for months.)

5. The Patriots outscored the Colts 28-0 after the balls were inflated to the 12.5-13.5 range. This isn't pertinent to the discussion, but a fun fact to point out.

What other confirmed information do we have? What facts did I miss?

 

[Rhode Irish]

I still haven't heard one scientific justification for why the Colts' balls did not deflate. Even if they deflated from 13.5 to 12.5 (1 psi) it still doesn't jive with the fact that the Patriots balls deflated by more than 1psi, and closer to 2 by most accounts I've read.

If I see a report that says both the Colts and Patriots balls deflated by 1 psi then I have nothing further to say.

There is no report detailing the actual change in PSI for either team. If you're right, and the Colts balls deflated zero and Pats balls deflated 2+ PSI, then I have nothing further to say. But the only thing we know about any of that is that one report (from Mort) said 11 of 12 Pats balls deflated by ~2 PSI, but that was contradicted by a PFT report that only one ball (the one in the Colts' possession following the INT) was deflated 2 PSI. Nothing about the Colts balls except inference, and there has also been no confirmed info about how the balls were tested and how those results were recorded.

All of which is not to say that the Patriots are definitely innocent. It is only to say that we have not much actual info to go on at this point. When you combine that with the way the two parties have conducted themselves to this point (Pats brashly contesting and showing no contrition, and the League leaking stuff like so many 2-bit political hacks), I just think there is enough reasonable doubt at this point to warrant holding off on a conclusion. I also think the onus is on the prosecutor to prove their case, so I want to see what the League can come up with beyond innuendo and in terms of physical evidence or a smoking gun in the form of an admission.

 

[wizards8507]

I still haven't heard one scientific justification for why the Colts' balls did not deflate.

Just like I haven't read one credible source that stated for a fact that the Colts' balls did NOT deflate. The one "source" that claimed they were is Gerry Austin, a retired referee who seemed to be describing protocol or what ought to have happened, but that dude has no idea whatsoever as to what actually happened.

 

[gkIrish]

Ok, I'll start with information we KNOW to be fact. For the purpose of this exercise, I am going to leave out information gleaned from conflicting media reports. Please let me know if any of the information below is not factual and I'll take it off the list.

1. The Patriots balls were under the PSI range (12.5-13.5 PSI) per NFL rules at halftime of their AFC Championship game against the Colts. No one questions this as a fact.

2. Temperature and weather conditions have an effect on the PSI number. This is science.

3. NFL teams provide 12 footballs pre-game to be inspected. The balls are then marked and provided to the teams shortly before kickoff. Another 6-balls are designated K balls for kicking and don't leave the possession of the NFL.

4. The 12 balls submitted by each team may be brand new (i.e. right out of the box) or balls that have been used by the team for weeks, months, or even years. (This is important because anyone who has spent any time around a football program understands the difference between a brand new ball and one that has been in use for months.)

5. The Patriots outscored the Colts 28-0 after the balls were inflated to the 12.5-13.5 range. This isn't pertinent to the discussion, but a fun fact to point out.

What other confirmed information do we have? What facts did I miss?

6. The Colts footballs were unaffected by temperature and weather.

7. A Patriots employee took the balls from the officials' locker room to a room with no video surveillance for at least 90 seconds

8. The Patriots have a statistical anomaly in lack of fumbles relative to the rest of the NFL over the last 7 years. (1 in 16,000 chance it's a coincidence)

 

[irishfan]

Report: NFL approved under-inflated balls from Patriots | Yardbarker.com

And there it is. The most logical explanation of all.

 

[wizards8507]

6. The Colts footballs were unaffected by temperature and weather.

The poster asked for "confirmed facts," not "random speculation from a guest on Mike & Mike."

7. A Patriots employee took the balls from the officials' locker room to a room with no video surveillance for at least 90 seconds

Wrong. The WAS video surveillance and that video is in the custody of the NFL.

8. The Patriots have a statistical anomaly in lack of fumbles relative to the rest of the NFL over the last 7 years. (1 in 16,000 chance it's a coincidence)

1 in 16,000 chance it's a coincidence.
1 in 16,000 chance they've been cheating for 7 years
15,998 in 16,000 chance that fumbling the football is the fastest ticket to BB's doghouse

Also, why the hell would Belichick start cheating seven years ago? They won their Super Bowls long before that but I'm guessing selective sampling is critical to your total unbiased point.

 

[gkIrish]

Just like I haven't read one credible source that stated for a fact that the Colts' balls did NOT deflate. The one "source" that claimed they were is Gerry Austin, a retired referee who seemed to be describing protocol or what ought to have happened, but that dude has no idea whatsoever as to what actually happened.

My understanding is all 12 balls were under the 13 pounds, but 11 of them were more than two pounds under the 13 pounds,'' Austin said of the halftime inspection on the "Mike & Mike'' show on ESPN Radio Wednesday morning. "Both teams' balls were brought in at halftime, to my understanding, and all 24 balls were checked. The Colts' balls were still up to 13 pounds and the Patriots' balls were not.''

I mean if you want to just discount his testimony, that's on you. Until someone tells me they weren't inspected or the drop in PSI was the same, I'm going to choose to believe someone who would have knowledge of the situation.

 

[gkIrish]

The poster asked for "confirmed facts," not "random speculation from a guest on Mike & Mike."

See my last post.

Wrong. The WAS video surveillance and that video is in the custody of the NFL.

There was video inside the bathroom?

 

[wizards8507]

I mean if you want to just discount his testimony, that's on you. Until someone tells me they weren't inspected or the drop in PSI was the same, I'm going to choose to believe someone who would have knowledge of the situation.

I can't even.

Why would a retired referee have ANY knowledge of the situation? That's like asking George Bush what happened in the briefing room during Benghazi. How the hell should he know?

 

[gkIrish]

I can't even.

Why would a retired referee have ANY knowledge of the situation? That's like asking George Bush what happened in the briefing room during Benghazi. How the hell should he know?

BECAUSE HE WORKED CLOSELY WITH THESE PEOPLE FOR LIKE 30 YEARS.

 

[gkIrish]

Report: NFL approved under-inflated balls from Patriots | Yardbarker.com

And there it is. The most logical explanation of all.

Um except Belichick thoroughly explained how the balls are submitted in compliance with the rules. So there's a lie in there somewhere.