[NFL] vBook: Colts vs Patriots (Deflategate)

[wizards8507]

Colts' D'Qwell Jackson: I didn't know football had less pressure - NFL.com

D'Qwell Jackson of Indianapolis Colts says he wasn't the one that noticed ball was under-inflated - ESPN

Maybe the Colts aren't as credible as once thought.

 

[MPClinton22]

The trouble here is that there is a history of Belichik being cagey or worse, from nebulous injury reports, to the spying, to the footballs, to who knows what else (I don't really focus on it; I've even got a soft spot for Belichick since he coached both the Giants and Browns, both of whom I like, plus Kraft seems like a decent guy, with a pretty low "Owner-Ahole Quotient."

But let's not kid ourselves: This is more of an issue because of history; it wouldn't be the same if it was the Seahawks or Giants or whomever has a "cleaner" past. But at some level, we bring extra scrutiny upon ourselves . Suh gets fined for breathing on quarterbacks, but, well, he has only himself to blame.

Edit: After reading the above NY Post article, maybe there would be outcry if it was someone else. But still I am just not sure that a QB can or would squeeze a ball and say "yep, that's a lower PSI than the league allows, but it's how I want them. Leave 'em." rather than "yep, that feels right; thanks." I'm guessing Brady told the ball boy when the balls were the way he wanted, and figured that the refs would tell him if he was over the line (or under the PSI).

I think this is exactly what happened. And I think it's pathetic that the media is crucifying a guy who has never done anything wrong in his 15 years in the league. Tarnishing his legacy? We don't even know if he did anything yet, regardless of what a New York sports writer thinks about the situation. People need to just stop writing opinion as facts.

 

[Monk]

That's assuming both teams filled the balls exactly the same way. I'm no expert but I have filled hundreds of air bottles through the years and you can get a wide range of results based on how you fill the bottles. I assume footballs would be the same. I'm not arguing the Pats didn't knowingly do something to deflate the balls but I could see where they could easily get the desired results by letting "nature take its course".

I'm confused by what you are saying here. If "nature" was the reason the footballs were underinflated then it would affect the both teams balls the same. I do not understand what you mean by the bolded. When you fill up an object to a desired pressure, you will have a pressure gauge which shows the desired pressure. It does not matter how you fill the ball as long as the compressed air is measured with a gauge.

 

[wizards8507]

I'm confused by what you are saying here. If "nature" was the reason the footballs were underinflated then it would affect the both teams balls the same. I do not understand what you mean by the bolded. When you fill up an object to a desired pressure, you will have a pressure gauge which shows the desired pressure. It does not matter how you fill the ball as long as the compressed air is measured with a gauge.

Tom Brady isn't measuring the ball with a gauge. He's measuring the ball with "yep, this feels about right."

 

[Monk]

But the officials are measuring it with gauges. I was not talking about Tom Brady at all I was responding to someone that was trying to say nature caused the deflation and that how the balls were inflated could have an impact on the pressure in the ball. Nowhere in either post was Tom Brady brought up.

 

[wizards8507]

Brady, Belichick, and Great Balls of Fire: A Front-Row Seat for the Foxborough Farce «

Because we are a nation of infantilized yahoos, I am able to present to you, verbatim, the second question posed to Tom Brady on Thursday, as he stood behind a lectern to discuss the tempest in a protective cup known as Ballghazi. I am not making any of this up, either.

“Tom,” he was asked. “This has raised a lot of uncomfortable conversations with people around the country who view you, a three-time Super Bowl champion, and a two-time MVP, as their idol. The question they’re asking themselves is, ‘What’s up with our hero?’ So can you answer right now, Is Tom Brady a cheater?”

This is a very big country. So, I would imagine, there are any number of uncomfortable conversations about a number of subjects going on at any one time. This is only one of them, and it is very minor — but, because we are a nation of infantilized yahoos, this is where we are. Watching the Great Media Hippo doing a moral ballet. To chronicle their heroes, the ancient Greeks had Homer. We have sports talk radio. This says nothing good about Western civilization.

 

[Black Irish]

I think part of the negative reaction towards the Pats is the fact that the cheating was not very consequential. New England probably would have still smoked the Colts if the balls were perfect. so why even go that route? This type of edge-seeking is so petty and classless. It's like a boxer who is absolutely destroying his opponent and still feels the need to punch below the belt or toss an "accidental" elbow to get a dirty edge he doesn't need.

 

[NDRock]

I'm confused by what you are saying here. If "nature" was the reason the footballs were underinflated then it would affect the both teams balls the same. I do not understand what you mean by the bolded. When you fill up an object to a desired pressure, you will have a pressure gauge which shows the desired pressure. It does not matter how you fill the ball as long as the compressed air is measured with a gauge.

Again, I am no expert but I will use me experience filling air cylinders (for a fire dept.) as an example. We fill our bottles to 4500 psi using a large compressor. Take two bottles for example, one is reading 3900 and just needs to be topped off and another is completely empty. If you fill the empty bottle "fast" with the hot air from the compressor (I have seen one reference that air from a compressor can come out between 180 and 350 degrees) you will get a much greater rate of "deflation" than the bottle that you topped off. I believe that is because one bottle has air at a temperature much higher than the other and when it cools, the psi goes down.

I can see a situation where the Pats inflate a completely deflated football with air coming from a compressor (180-350 degrees), measuring that ball within specs and then having a greater loss in psi than a football that was already inflated and at "room temperature".

Basically, I'm saying if one ball is inflated with hot air and another with cool air, they would have a different rate of pi loss.

 

[wizards8507]

Everybody has a preference. Some guys like them round. Some guys like them thin. Some guys like them tacky. Some guys like them brand-new. Some guys like old balls.

-Tom Brady

 

[Irish Insanity]

The problem is, the Pats would've prepped the balls Brady's way. He would've selected his 12. The officials would've then checked them, as they stated, 2.5 hrs before the game. They were all legit then. Once the game started they weren't. Brady pucks his balls before the refs test, not after. There is literally no possible way they weren't altered after they were approved by the refs, unless the refs did it. But that's very unlikely considering them confiscating and testing them during the game then stating they found 11 or 12 bad. If they were the ones messing with them I doubt they would admit there were any bad ones.

 

[wizards8507]

The problem is, the Pats would've prepped the balls Brady's way. He would've selected his 12. The officials would've then checked them, as they stated, 2.5 hrs before the game. They were all legit then. Once the game started they weren't. Brady pucks his balls before the refs test, not after. There is literally no possible way they weren't altered after they were approved by the refs, unless the refs did it. But that's very unlikely considering them confiscating and testing them during the game then stating they found 11 or 12 bad. If they were the ones messing with them I doubt they would admit there were any bad ones.

Also possible that the refs never checked them prior to the start of the game like they said they did.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Everybody has a preference. Some guys like them round. Some guys like them thin. Some guys like them tacky. Some guys like them brand-new. Some guys like old balls.

-Tom Brady

Too.......many.......innuendos......

 

[dshans]

Everybody has a preference. Some guys like them round. Some guys like them thin. Some guys like them tacky. Some guys like them brand-new. Some guys like old balls.

-Tom Brady

Quite the string of double entendres. Five by my count.



Me likey!

 

[Monk]

Again, I am no expert but I will use me experience filling air cylinders (for a fire dept.) as an example. We fill our bottles to 4500 psi using a large compressor. Take two bottles for example, one is reading 3900 and just needs to be topped off and another is completely empty. If you fill the empty bottle "fast" with the hot air from the compressor (I have seen one reference that air from a compressor can come out between 180 and 350 degrees) you will get a much greater rate of "deflation" than the bottle that you topped off. I believe that is because one bottle has air at a temperature much higher than the other and when it cools, the psi goes down.

I can see a situation where the Pats inflate a completely deflated football with air coming from a compressor (180-350 degrees), measuring that ball within specs and then having a greater loss in psi than a football that was already inflated and at "room temperature".

Basically, I'm saying if one ball is inflated with hot air and another with cool air, they would have a different rate of pi loss.

That would be correct. Am I to assume you think the officials checked the balls directly after they wear filled? I do not believe this is the case (don't know for sure) considering the teams are allowed to use the footballs and have them well before the game, whereas to my understanding the officials check them directly before the game.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[irishfan]

Also possible that the refs never checked them prior to the start of the game like they said they did.

Boston Globe is now reporting that they did check them properly. Then obviously they stayed with officials until game time (or warmups?). I mean they have a crazy amount of cameras there, many of which are near or on sideline. I still think it's going to be very hard to prove that the Patriots actually did this if they can't find video proof, which, according to Schefter, they are struggling to do.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Boston Globe is now reporting that they did check them properly. Then obviously they stayed with officials until game time (or warmups?). I mean they have a crazy amount of cameras there, many of which are near or on sideline. I still think it's going to be very hard to prove that the Patriots actually did this if they can't find video proof, which, according to Schefter, they are struggling to do.

Here is the thing I can't get my head around....

Tom Brady throws a football for a living. Over the years. he has probably thrown hundreds of thousands of passes in practice, games, OTA's, etc. Like anything else, you practice with what you play with. Meaning, assuming he doesn't cheat, he is going to practice with a fully inflated ball. How in the world he didn't notice the balls were not inflated correctly is beyond me. Sure, the average person may not notice the difference, but I can guarantee a QB does. Just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[NDRock]

That would be correct. Am I to assume you think the officials checked the balls directly after they wear filled? I do not believe this is the case (don't know for sure) considering the teams are allowed to use the footballs and have them well before the game, whereas to my understanding the officials check them directly before the game.

Thanks for the clarification.

I really have no idea what happened or how the whole system goes as far as checking the balls. I just think it would be fairly easy for a team to "comply" with the rules while still getting their desired results, especially in cold weather games. This assumes the refs check the balls well before game time and not right before the game starts.

Belicheck needs to get into NASCAR after he retires, he would have fun constantly trying to get around the rules.

 

[wizards8507]

Here is the thing I can't get my head around....

Tom Brady throws a football for a living. Over the years. he has probably thrown hundreds of thousands of passes in practice, games, OTA's, etc. Like anything else, you practice with what you play with. Meaning, assuming he doesn't cheat, he is going to practice with a fully inflated ball. How in the world he didn't notice the balls were not inflated correctly is beyond me. Sure, the average person may not notice the difference, but I can guarantee a QB does. Just doesn't make sense to me.

A couple of possibilities (I'm not a quarterback but just off the top of my head...)

1. Inflation isn't the only variation from football to football. They can be cold, hot, fat, thin, wet, dry, frozen, overinflated, underinflated, slippery, tacky, worn, new, etc. The whole reason that teams are allowed to pick their own balls is because most quarterbacks hate the "out of the box" new footballs because they're very slippery before they're broken in. If every football was exactly the same except for its level of inflation, it would be much easier to discern that one variable. Along those lines, balls deflate naturally over the course of the game and with the conditions. It's not like he's always throwing exactly the same "feel" ball. A wet ball in the first quarter against Miami in September is going to feel much different than a dry ball in the fourth quarter against Green Bay in November, even if they were relatively similar before each game.

2. People are vastly overestimating the difference in the "feel" of an underinflated versus properly inflated ball. It's not like one is squishy and the other is hard as a rock. It's a subtle difference, at most.

3. You're only playing with one ball at a time. If you handed Brady a 13.5 ball and then handed him a 12.0 ball, and asked him to compare the two, I'm sure he could tell the difference. However, if you handed Brady a SINGLE football and said "guess the PSI," I highly doubt he'd be very accurate. This is why the sequence they did on NFL Live was so idiotic. If you handle three footballs in sequence and are told in advance "one is over, one is under, and one is right on," obviously you'd be able to tell much easier than if you took a single ball from under center and were asked "was that ball over, under, or right on?"

Think about it this way: Somebody puts three pairs of sneakers in front of you. One is size 11, one is size 12, and one is size 13. If you're asked "which is the 11, which is the 12, and which is the 13?" it'll be pretty easy because you just stick them in order by size. That's much different than someone putting a SINGLE pair of sneakers in front of you and making you guess what size it is.

 

[palinurus]

A couple of possibilities (I'm not a quarterback but just off the top of my head...)

1. Inflation isn't the only variation from football to football. They can be cold, hot, fat, thin, wet, dry, frozen, overinflated, underinflated, slippery, tacky, worn, new, etc. The whole reason that teams are allowed to pick their own balls is because most quarterbacks hate the "out of the box" new footballs because they're very slippery before they're broken in. If every football was exactly the same except for its level of inflation, it would be much easier to discern that one variable. Along those lines, balls deflate naturally over the course of the game and with the conditions. It's not like he's always throwing exactly the same "feel" ball. A wet ball in the first quarter against Miami in September is going to feel much different than a dry ball in the fourth quarter against Green Bay in November, even if they were relatively similar before each game.

2. People are vastly overestimating the difference in the "feel" of an underinflated versus properly inflated ball. It's not like one is squishy and the other is hard as a rock. It's a subtle difference, at most.

3. You're only playing with one ball at a time. If you handed Brady a 13.5 ball and then handed him a 12.0 ball, and asked him to compare the two, I'm sure he could tell the difference. However, if you handed Brady a SINGLE football and said "guess the PSI," I highly doubt he'd be very accurate. This is why the sequence they did on NFL Live was so idiotic. If you handle three footballs in sequence and are told in advance "one is over, one is under, and one is right on," obviously you'd be able to tell much easier than if you took a single ball from under center and were asked "was that ball over, under, or right on?"

Think about it this way: Somebody puts three pairs of sneakers in front of you. One is size 11, one is size 12, and one is size 13. If you're asked "which is the 11, which is the 12, and which is the 13?" it'll be pretty easy because you just stick them in order by size. That's much different than someone putting a SINGLE pair of sneakers in front of you and making you guess what size it is.

I saw a sports news guy on TV the other day, and he had a legit ball and two psi light ball, and he pushed in on both with his finger, presumably with equal pressure.....There really wasn't a significant difference.

 

[gkIrish]

A couple of possibilities (I'm not a quarterback but just off the top of my head...)

1. Inflation isn't the only variation from football to football. They can be cold, hot, fat, thin, wet, dry, frozen, overinflated, underinflated, slippery, tacky, worn, new, etc. The whole reason that teams are allowed to pick their own balls is because most quarterbacks hate the "out of the box" new footballs because they're very slippery before they're broken in. If every football was exactly the same except for its level of inflation, it would be much easier to discern that one variable. Along those lines, balls deflate naturally over the course of the game and with the conditions. It's not like he's always throwing exactly the same "feel" ball. A wet ball in the first quarter against Miami in September is going to feel much different than a dry ball in the fourth quarter against Green Bay in November, even if they were relatively similar before each game.

2. People are vastly overestimating the difference in the "feel" of an underinflated versus properly inflated ball. It's not like one is squishy and the other is hard as a rock. It's a subtle difference, at most.

3. You're only playing with one ball at a time. If you handed Brady a 13.5 ball and then handed him a 12.0 ball, and asked him to compare the two, I'm sure he could tell the difference. However, if you handed Brady a SINGLE football and said "guess the PSI," I highly doubt he'd be very accurate. This is why the sequence they did on NFL Live was so idiotic. If you handle three footballs in sequence and are told in advance "one is over, one is under, and one is right on," obviously you'd be able to tell much easier than if you took a single ball from under center and were asked "was that ball over, under, or right on?"

Think about it this way: Somebody puts three pairs of sneakers in front of you. One is size 11, one is size 12, and one is size 13. If you're asked "which is the 11, which is the 12, and which is the 13?" it'll be pretty easy because you just stick them in order by size. That's much different than someone putting a SINGLE pair of sneakers in front of you and making you guess what size it is.

This is literally the only post you've made in this thread that made any sense.

 

[Ndaccountant]

A couple of possibilities (I'm not a quarterback but just off the top of my head...)

1. Inflation isn't the only variation from football to football. They can be cold, hot, fat, thin, wet, dry, frozen, overinflated, underinflated, slippery, tacky, worn, new, etc. The whole reason that teams are allowed to pick their own balls is because most quarterbacks hate the "out of the box" new footballs because they're very slippery before they're broken in. If every football was exactly the same except for its level of inflation, it would be much easier to discern that one variable. Along those lines, balls deflate naturally over the course of the game and with the conditions. It's not like he's always throwing exactly the same "feel" ball. A wet ball in the first quarter against Miami in September is going to feel much different than a dry ball in the fourth quarter against Green Bay in November, even if they were relatively similar before each game.

2. People are vastly overestimating the difference in the "feel" of an underinflated versus properly inflated ball. It's not like one is squishy and the other is hard as a rock. It's a subtle difference, at most.

3. You're only playing with one ball at a time. If you handed Brady a 13.5 ball and then handed him a 12.0 ball, and asked him to compare the two, I'm sure he could tell the difference. However, if you handed Brady a SINGLE football and said "guess the PSI," I highly doubt he'd be very accurate. This is why the sequence they did on NFL Live was so idiotic. If you handle three footballs in sequence and are told in advance "one is over, one is under, and one is right on," obviously you'd be able to tell much easier than if you took a single ball from under center and were asked "was that ball over, under, or right on?"

Think about it this way: Somebody puts three pairs of sneakers in front of you. One is size 11, one is size 12, and one is size 13. If you're asked "which is the 11, which is the 12, and which is the 13?" it'll be pretty easy because you just stick them in order by size. That's much different than someone putting a SINGLE pair of sneakers in front of you and making you guess what size it is.

To the sneaker analagoy.....It isn't that I am trying to identify the size of the shoe, rather that just the shoe is different.
If I have worn a size 13 my whole life and someone switched in a size 13.5, I am going to know.

Attached is an article from a former Pats QB. The interesting thing in this isn't that he could easily identify the under-inflated ball simply by squeezing it, since he knew one had to be. It's that there was a noticeable difference in the grip when throwing the ball. Again, for someone that has done this hundreds of thousands of times, I find it hard to believe that Brady didn't notice it, especially since he didn't have a glove on.

It took 26 pounds of pressure the first time and 25 pounds of pressure the second time to release the fully inflated football from Millen’s grasp.

Then Millen repeated the same process with the deflated footballs. This time, Millen needed 29.5 pounds of pressure per square inch and 32 pounds of pressure per square inch to rip it free.

Millen played for six teams as mostly a backup, and he said most quarterbacks he has been around prefer a softer ball.

“It’s like boots when you first get them after you’ve worn them for a couple years,” Millen said. “It just has that supple feel.”

Former Pats QB, who works for company that makes footballs, talks Deflategate | Sports - Patriots | providencejournal.com | The Providence Journa

 

[Irish#1]

Also possible that the refs never checked them prior to the start of the game like they said they did.

Quit grasping. Those refs get paid a very handsome salary. They know their job and they aren't going to put their jobs in jeopardy by skipping a duty. Keep in mind that the NFL has people at every game checking things like this and uniform adherence, etc..

 

[wizards8507]

Quit grasping. Those refs get paid a very handsome salary. They know their job and they aren't going to put their jobs in jeopardy by skipping a duty. Keep in mind that the NFL has people at every game checking things like this and uniform adherence, etc..

Are you serious? The refs get paid a handsome salary so there's no way they missed this? Refs get paid a handsome salary and they miss penalties all the time. Refs get paid a handsome salary and yet instant replay overturns calls. Roger Goodell gets paid a handsome salary and botched the Ray Rice situation. Tom Brady gets paid a handsome salary yet he sometimes throws interceptions.

What the hell does that have to do with it?

 

[gkIrish]

Are you serious? The refs get paid a handsome salary so there's no way they missed this? Refs get paid a handsome salary and they miss penalties all the time. Refs get paid a handsome salary and yet instant replay overturns calls. Roger Goodell gets paid a handsome salary and botched the Ray Rice situation. Tom Brady gets paid a handsome salary yet he sometimes throws interceptions.

What the hell does that have to do with it?

You spent a good part of 3 days claiming there's no evidence that the Patriots did anything wrong and now you want to suggest the refs didn't do their job in the 2nd most important game of the year when there is no evidence to suggest that.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Quit grasping. Those refs get paid a very handsome salary. They know their job and they aren't going to put their jobs in jeopardy by skipping a duty. Keep in mind that the NFL has people at every game checking things like this and uniform adherence, etc..

OK, that sounds right, but it is definitely not true. There are plenty of reports out there that refs sometimes lazily use a "squeeze" test or a visual test. I don't know if they would do that for this game, especially because there are reports the NFL was specifically looking for this issue coming into the game. But if I were Kraft and there was no unimpeachable recording of the results from the pregame inspection I would not ever concede that point. Because this is such a stupid thing, I don't actually think the truth matters. I don't think that deflating the ball is wrong, so if I need to fight it on a technicality I would. With a totally clean conscience. This is not about ethics or integrity of the game; it is 100% about public relations and character assassination.

In fact, a big part of my problem here is with Kraft. He should be putting all his resources and energy into a PR counteroffensive against every media person, former player, opposing team personnel and League official. Dox them, embarrass them, hire PIs to find dirt on them, ruin their marriages and try to get them fired. Scorch the damn earth. These people are coming after you and trying to ruin you over absolutely nothing. They are the bad guys. If I were Kraft and they came at me, I would go to war about it.

 

[wizards8507]

You spent a good part of 3 days claiming there's no evidence that the Patriots did anything wrong and now you want to suggest the refs didn't do their job in the 2nd most important game of the year when there is no evidence to suggest that.

I have no opinion. My pro-Patriots arguments have been what I believe to be plausible explanations of how this happened without dishonest intent. They COULD be innocent. They COULD be guilty. MAYBE Brady did it. MAYBE Belichick did it. MAYBE they conspired together. MAYBE it was the weather. MAYBE nobody on the Patriots actually measured the balls. MAYBE nobody on the NFL measured the balls.

You say there's no evidence to suggest the referees failed to do their job. I say there's no evidence to suggest that the Patriots deliberately doctored them. All we know is that the balls were flat. That's it. There's no evidence whatsoever regarding the cause thereof.

All of these maybes add up to "quit saying the Patriots cheated until we have a bit more solid evidence that they did. Until then, who cares anyways? This should be a damn good Super Bowl."

 

[wizards8507]

In fact, a big part of my problem here is with Kraft. He should be putting all his resources and energy into a PR counteroffensive against every media person, former player, opposing team personnel and League official. Dox them, embarrass them, hire PIs to find dirt on them, ruin their marriages and try to get them fired. Scorch the damn earth. These people are coming after you and trying to ruin you over absolutely nothing. They are the bad guys. If I were Kraft and they came at me, I would go to war about it.

Another interesting angle regarding the media and commentators in this case. Bill Simmons was suspended earlier this year for calling Roger Goodell a liar in the Ray Rice case. I'd be interested to see if anything happens with the NFL live bunch after they essentially did the same thing to Brady and Belichick.

Probably nothing.

 

[bkess8]

Are you serious? The refs get paid a handsome salary so there's no way they missed this? Refs get paid a handsome salary and they miss penalties all the time. Refs get paid a handsome salary and yet instant replay overturns calls. Roger Goodell gets paid a handsome salary and botched the Ray Rice situation. Tom Brady gets paid a handsome salary yet he sometimes throws interceptions.

What the hell does that have to do with it?

Your arguing points are a little misleading if you ask me. Your saying they get paid to call penalties and then you go into talking about instant replay. You are talking about judgment calls. Checking a ball before the game is done with a pressure gauge and there is not judgment in looking at a needle and seeing if it falls within the allowable limits IMO.

 

[wizards8507]

Your arguing points are a little misleading if you ask me. Your saying they get paid to call penalties and then you go into talking about instant replay. You are talking about judgment calls. Checking a ball before the game is done with a pressure gauge and there is not judgment in looking at a needle and seeing if it falls within the allowable limits IMO.

My point remains, I'll just need to pick a different analogy:

Pine tar on the bat (measurable, the umpires don't measure)
Curving the hockey stick (measurable, the referees don't measure)

 

[bkess8]

My point remains, I'll just need to pick a different analogy:

Pine tar on the bat (measurable, the umpires don't measure)
Curving the hockey stick (measurable, the referees don't measure)

But if you get caught you pay the consequences right? Yes you do by suspension or fine.