Oversigning Recruits

[Legacy]

How Georgia could sign a class of 34 in 2013

How Georgia could sign a class of 34 in 2013

With the new (August 2011) SEC rules limiting classes to 25 with all those signing on NSD counted in that total, how Georgia signed 34 was due to the SEC exception to the class limits, attrition, and previous class sizes.

The SEC exception:

13.9.1.1 Signing Limit Exception. A prospective student-athlete who signs a National Letter of Intent, Conference financial aid agreement and/or institutional offer of athletics financial aid and is included in the certifying institution’s initial counter limits for the current academic year is not subject to the institution’s annual signing limit. [Adopted 6/3/11; effective August 1, 2011]

Georgia had mostly signed classes around ND size - 20 per year (except 2011 - 27) for a total of signing 85 players - and enrolling 78 of those - in the previous four classes, 2009-12. Attrition hit Georgia, which had only 50 scholarship players with eligibility left for 2013 - including fifth years.

Of the 32 players enrolled, twelve were early entrees with eight able to be back counted to the 2012 class (19, which had two early entrees back counted to the 2011 class). Two EEs from 2011 were back counted to 2010. That left 24 for 2011 and 25 for 2012 and 25 for 2013.

The two who did not enroll (both to JUCO) would not be counted per NCAA rules, but the SEC considered them "counters" under their new rules in the 2014 class, which had 21 signees + the two "counters" from 2013 = 23.

Richt then had twelve more players for spring ball with the early entrees (12), making 62 total. He was able to give out scholarships in 2013 to four walk-ons, indicating the attrition that hit the 2009-12 classes (again, 78 enrolled). Those numbers were slightly less than ND's in that same time period (81).

Twenty more players enrolled in the fall, spreading out the large class, although two were unable to play in 2013 due to injuries.

The large class in 2013 was really not an oversigning issue and met SEC regs.

How can UGA sign 30-35 recruits under the SEC’s new over-signing rules?

 

[wizards8507]

With the new (August 2011) SEC rules limiting classes to 25 with all those signing on NSD counted in that total, how Georgia signed 34 was due to the SEC exception to the class limits, attrition, and previous class sizes.

The SEC exception:

Georgia had mostly signed classes around ND size - 20 per year (except 2011 - 27) for a total of signing 85 players - and enrolling 78 of those - in the previous four classes, 2009-12. Attrition hit Georgia, which had only 50 scholarship players with eligibility left for 2013 - including fifth years.

Of the 32 players enrolled, twelve were early entrees with eight able to be back counted to the 2012 class (19, which had two early entrees back counted to the 2011 class). Two EEs from 2011 were back counted to 2010. That left 24 for 2011 and 25 for 2012 and 25 for 2013.

The two who did not enroll (both to JUCO) would not be counted per NCAA rules, but the SEC considered them "counters" under their new rules in the 2014 class, which had 21 signees + the two "counters" from 2013 = 23.

Richt then had twelve more players for spring ball with the early entrees (12), making 62 total. He was able to give out scholarships in 2013 to four walk-ons, indicating the attrition that hit the 2009-12 classes (again, 78 enrolled). Those numbers were slightly less than ND's in that same time period (81).

Twenty more players enrolled in the fall, spreading out the large class, although two were unable to play in 2013 due to injuries.

The large class in 2013 was really not an oversigning issue and met SEC regs.

How can UGA sign 30-35 recruits under the SEC’s new over-signing rules?

 

[Legacy]

South Carolina oversigning vs Notre Dame

South Carolina oversigning vs Notre Dame

South Carolina seemed like a good example of oversigning. Coaching change would not be a factor since Spurrier has been there for some years.

For the 2009-11 classes, USCe had (over)signed 84 players (ave 28 per yr) to LOI. Yet some of these players never enrolled due to academics. Not adjusting for those who went to JUCO would amount to count some players twice if they entered in another class.

Adjusting for players who did not enroll (12 in that three year span), South Carolina actually had 72 enrolled players (24 per year ave) for 2009-11. Over the same period, ND enrolled 64 (21.3 ave).

The revision of the SEC recruiting rules impacted South Carolina, who would sign as many as possible and then work out whether they were academically eligible before the fall camp. Counting all signees against the school's limit of 25 per year - whether they enrolled or not - changed the landscape. The point of the SEC recruiting limit changes was effectively to make schools sure that signees were academically cleared before they signed the LOI, contracting them to the school.

Clearing academics put them at or near the policy at Notre Dame and enable some valid comparisons.

Here's how it impacted South Carolina:

For the 2012-14 classes when that reg has been in effect, South Carolina signed 67 players - down 17 from that three year period of 2009-11 (84).

SC has taken less chances on players that may not pass admission - only five has signed but not enrolled (2012-14) vs 12 from 2009-11.

Adjusting for those five who did not enroll, South Carolina's total enrolled players for 2012-14 were 62. Notre Dame enrolled 64.

For the SEC East schools from 2009-11, USCe signed the most (84). The others's unadjusted totals of note were: Kentucky (80), Tennessee (76), Florida (73).

Those SEC schools with totals similar to or below ND's - but unadjusted - were: Missouri (65), Vandy (64) and Georgia (61). Missouri, of course, was in the Big 12 though.

Just the raw signing day numbers don't tell all the story.

 

[Legacy]

Scholarship Math - Selected SEC and B10 schools

Scholarship Math - Selected SEC and B10 schools

With Spring practice underway and spring rosters announced, here are the scholarship numbers (by my count) for some SEC schools with their 2014 class sizes in parentheses. The number of scholarships over or under 85 is noted:

- Alabama - 86 (26) - +1
- Florida - 84 (24) - -1
- Georgia - 85 (19) - 0
- LSU - 85 (23) - 0
- S.Carolina - 85 (20) - 0
- Tennessee - 85 (31) - 0

and three Big Ten schools:
- Michigan - 84 (16) - -1
- Ohio St - 82 (22) -- 0 -- restriction to 82 for 2014
- Penn St - 74 (25) - -1 -- restriction to 75 for 2014

With the new SEC regulations that count all signees towards their limit and notification to the conference of the total numbers after Signing Day, more decisions on academics for admission have been made prior to S.D. - as well as announcements of transfers.

Alabama has an additional scholarship to account for by the fall with the transfer in of Jacob Coker, former QB at FSU, making 87. Bama can get to 85 through transfers, academic casualties and graduations.

Two of Alabama's class of 2014 classes have been mentioned as needing to complete academic requirements.
Three more (two of the class of 2012 and one of the class of 2011) have not played yet at Alabama.

One (Alec Morris) of those three who have not played is a QB. Coker will make six QBs on the roster in the fall. The spring will tell if Morris moves up or drops back on the depth chart and transfers.

 

[Legacy]

What Southern school's football program

What Southern school's football program

• - currently have 88 scholarship players going into fall camp

• - signed 20 recruits in their 2014 class, while thirteen players leaving (seniors graduating and players leaving early for the NFL )

• - has signed 119 players in the past five years

• - have two potential grayshirts from the class of 2014

• - have had four players placed on medical hardship since 1/1/2013

• - have had four players disciplined with suspensions (three have transferred)

• - have had six total transfers since 1/1/2013 (two in 2014 after signing the class of 2014)

• - have had four committed recruits unable to qualify for admission from the classes of 2012&2013 (unknown if any from the class of 2014 will not qualify)

• - currently have 20 committed recruits for the class of 2015 time with 20 current players losing their eligibility at the end of this year

Right. Clemson.

Not to come down on Clemson, but there's more than just numbers. None of the medical hardships have transferred out of Clemson to play elsewhere.

Three of the 88 potential scholarship players in 2014 were walk-ons awarded scholarships last year. One (a kicker) is first team, another is second team on the depth chart, the third is not listed in the top 4 at his position.

Clemson coaching staff may well have an idea of who of the remaining players and incoming recruits may not qualify, have injuries or may have expressed interest in transferring due to being buried on the depth chart, or may leave early for the NFL. Clemson has eleven fifth year seniors this year, which is higher than ND or most SEC schools. They may take more chances with marginal academic recruits.

Is this really an oversigning issue?

 

[Legacy]

Will South Carolina be Oversigning this year?

Will South Carolina be Oversigning this year?

Carolina has signed 122 recruits in the past five years (24.4 ave). The 2015 class already has 28 verbal commitments. The SEC caps LOIs at 50 over two year rolling periods. Last year USCe signed 21. (21+28=49) Do they have room for just one more?

In 2013 Carolina had the fewest seniors in the nation - five. Sanctions limit them to 82 total scholarship players last year and this year. So they lost five seniors and signed 21 recruits. How could they not be oversigning?

--The 122 signees turned into 105 enrollees, as 17 signees never qualified.
--The 2014 class of 21 turned into 15, as six players did not qualify.
--Four players were early entries into the 2014 NFL draft.
--Eight players transferred during the 2014 offseason (7 after Signing Day)

Scholarship Count
After giving scholarships to two walk-ons for 2014, USCe's scholarship count is now 78. (Four other walk-ons were given scholarships for '13 and are still on scholarship for '14). The Gamecocks have room to give four more walk-ons scholarships in 2014 to get to their 82 limit! Subtract all the walk-on scholarships (6) and they're at 72!

Injuries
With one player out for the '14 season and another out indefinitely, they start the season with 70 scholarship players and 6 walk-ons with scholarships (76 total).

The exception to the SEC rule limiting 25 scholarships per year (or 50 in rolling two year periods) is if a team needs to sign more recruits to reach the NCAA limit of 85.

How many can they sign in 2015?
-- Of the 78, 21 players will run out of eligibility, leaving 57.
-- If all 28 verbals commit and qualify, they will be at 85. (USCe will be off sanctions next year)
However,
-- this assumes Spurrier will extend fifth year scholarships to all those who still have a year left (4 RS Jrs are listed as third stringers though) and
-- there are no early entries to the draft (RB, Mike Davis, a Junior and preseason 1st team SEC) is a possiblity, and
-- no one transfers or has a career-ending injury.

IF
-- there is one early entrant, only two transfers and the four RS Jrs who are third string are not offered a scholarship, seven more scholarships would be available for the 2015 class. South Carolina could have a 2015 class of 35 (if all qualify!)

 

[Legacy]

Which teams have oversigning potential?

Which teams have oversigning potential?

With most schools' 2015 class about 80-90% full and focusing on those targets to fill out their class, it's worth looking at some numbers and identifying some mitigating factors on class sizes. I've chosen to limit my analysis to the three recruiting classes of 2013-15. Of course the 2015 class is not yet in the books, but their any increase in their numbers will pressure current roster size.

I'll use ND as a relative reference and will then consider any school's numbers more than ND's for further analysis.

Notre Dame's three class sizes is currently at 68.

Twelve schools have greater totals than the Irish. Six from the SEC, 2 ACC, 2 Pac 12, 1 Big 12, 1 Big 10.

• Tennessee-78
• Georgia-77
• Mississippi State-75
• Arizona-74
• Texas A&M-74
• Wake Forest-72
• Alabama-72
• West Virginia-70
• Oregon State-70
• Florida State-69
• Ohio State-69
• South Carolina-69

Three factors - above and beyond "Attrition" - need to be considered that will open up further scholarships. They are:
-How many recruits do not Qualify for Admission
-Community College signees, who create roster spots in the class two years later, when their eligibility ends
-Early Entrants to the NFL Draft

As a reference, Notre Dame had all their recruits qualify for Admission, do not accept Community College recruits and had five players enter the NFL draft early. 68 - (0 did not qualify(DNQ), 0 CommColl, 5 Early Entrants to NFL) = 63.

Three of the twelve schools above take significant chances on recruits who may not qualify - Mississippi State, South Carolina, and Oregon State.
Oregon State- 70 - (11 did not qualify (DNQ); 4 Comm College '13; 2 Early Entrants) = 53.
South Carolina- 69 - (7 DNQ, 0 CC '13, 6 EEs) = 56.
Mississippi State- 75 - (8 DNQ, 2 CC '13, 0 EEs) = 65, a couple higher than ND.

Two other schools drop below ND's numbers - West Virginia and Florida State - for different reason.
West Virginia- 70 - (1 DNQ, 7-CCs '13, 1 EE to the NFL) = 61.
Florida State- 69 - (All Qualified, 1 CC in '13, 8 EEs to the NFL) = 60.

Of note, Alabama ends up with the same number - 63 - as Notre Dame.
Alabama- 72 - (2 DNQ, 0 CC in '13, 7 EEs to the NFL) = 63.

Five schools - Oregon State, South Carolina, West Virginia, Florida State and Alabama - can be eliminated with less total numbers (or the same) as Notre Dame's.

Here are the final number totals for those seven remaining schools:
Arizona - 74 - (0 DNQ, 1 CC, 1 EE) = 72
Wake Forest - 72 (0 DNQ, 0 CC, 0 EEs) = 72
Tennessee- 78 - (0 DNQ, 2 CC'13, 5 - EEs) = 70
Georgia - 77 - (2 DNQ, 5 CCs, 3 EEs) =67
Texas A&M - 74 (2 DN enroll, 3 CCs, 4 EEs) = 65
Ohio State - 69 (0 DNQ, 1 CC, 3 EEs) = 65
Mississippi State (above) - 75 - (8 DNQ, 2 CC in '13, 0 EEs) = 65

The top three schools all have newer coaches, who typically load up on players in their first recruiting classes. Georgia has been hit with a number of well-documented disciplinary problems and transfers. A&M has lost seven players so far from their large class of '13, including three arrests.

Considering the three factors - DNQ, CC, and EEs - approaches a better idea of scholarships available for the fall roster. Of course, this does not address upper class numbers nor "attrition", which varies widely.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Tennessee is becoming the king of over signing. I think they had 40 or so last year, and have close to 30 so far this cycle.

 

[NDRock]

Tennessee is becoming the king of over signing. I think they had 40 or so last year, and have close to 30 so far this cycle.

Yep, Jones is turning that program around. They should be very good in a couple of years.

 

[OlympiaIrishFan]

We have to sign more than we usually do, transfers have to be coming.

 

[Legacy]

Tennessee is becoming the king of over signing. I think they had 40 or so last year, and have close to 30 so far this cycle.

Tennessee ended up with 31 last year and has 26 so far for 2015. All qualified and enrolled for 2013 (21) as well as 2014. Of the 78 for the three classes, only eight are from Community Colleges (only one in 2015). Jones is building from the ground up.

As for their 2011 & 2012 classes (26 & 21), since Jones became the head coach, nine have transferred, two quit the team, one was given a medical scholarship. Most of those who transferred had been suspended for disciplinary reasons.

This reminds me of Nick Saban's first years at Alabama.

 

[NDRock]

We have to sign more than we usually do, transfers have to be coming.

It's so frustrating how we go about our recruiting. Every year we try to be right at 85 on signing day (we inevitably fall short) when we don't have to be down to 85 until August 1 (six months later). It doesn't take a genius to figure out there will be attrition during Spring and Summer, happens every year. Until we leave signing day with around 90 scholarships possible we will always be in this position.

 

[connor_in]

The rule is 85.

I say we sign 85 kids every year and entrance requirements are not to apply to those with athletic scholarships.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

ND has chosen not to oversign at all, even in anticipation of normal attrition between NSD and the start of fall practice. I understand the reasons for that and it has some noble ideas behind it, but it often leaves your team shorthanded and below the 85 man limit. Does Saban push the limits and engage in some roster management? Probably so, but to a much lesser degree than most on here seem to believe. Both the Bama approach and the ND approach have their pluses and minuses, but both are well within the NCAA's rules, so I don't see a problem with either.

I quoted Bishop from a post earlier this year and he is spot on regarding ND. Not sure what the "pluses" are for ND not oversigning other than cutting off their nose to spite their face so they can say they have the moral high ground...while most programs maximize what the NCAA allows to avoid no falling below 85. ND seems to fall below 85 every year lately. It bit us in the ass big time this season.

My only question is injury. If a kid is injured in the middle of the season w/ a prognosis of returning the following spring/summer, he's not taken off scholarship to allow a gray shirt to fill his spot is he? I understand the career ending injuries & transfering them to a medical hardship scholly but the temporary injuries are confusing me. For instance, what would a team have done w/ Jarrett Grace? He hasn't officially called it a career yet, so he obviously plans on returning. He's still on athletic scholarship...can they transfer that to a medical hardship until he's able to play again?

i think most programs would have urged Collinsworth to take a medical hardship & call it a career, but the kid busted his ass to play injured & he should have all our respect b/c we didn't oversign and thus had no backup plan. I think it's time to consider that Grace & Barrati are done. I would've thrown Hounshell in there, too; but Kelly insists he's healthy despite being undersized for what they need (he played out of position last Saturday out of necessity).

It would also help if more of the players would actually develop over their four/five year run. Josh Atkinson isn't even travelling w/ the team. Wasn't he a ST stalwart early in his career? I'm not saying start the kid, but is he that worthless or are the coaches guilty of not developing kids? I have no idea. Same w/ Jalen Brown, Anthony Rabasa, Chase Hounshell, Ben Councell, Kendall Moore. These kids weren't a bunch of stiffs when they signed were they? Were they all busts? Were they all mis-evlauated & if so, who bears that blame?

 

[Legacy]

I quoted Bishop from a post earlier this year and he is spot on regarding ND. Not sure what the "pluses" are for ND not oversigning other than cutting off their nose to spite their face so they can say they have the moral high ground...while most programs maximize what the NCAA allows to avoid no falling below 85. ND seems to fall below 85 every year lately. It bit us in the ass big time this season.

Dodger,
We "fell short" of 85 by five this year. Scholarships were given to long-time walk-ons Connor Cavalaris, Charlie Fiessinger, and Tyler Plantz for their hard work as well as Montgomery VanGorder. The Marooned Five, all the injuries and the turnovers are what "bit us in the ass big time" this season. Having one more recruit per year for five years may have gotten us the 85 but may not have made much difference. The Irish could have offered another year to more potential fifth years to get to 85, but would that have made a difference?

Stanford with similar high academic standards usually is around 73-74 for four classes. They have fifteen fifth years this season to reach 85. Northwestern has eleven fifth years to get to 84. Getting the right players who can pass ND's admission standards is the challenge. ND promises a four year scholarship to achieve those recruits' educational goals. I view that as a commitment by the university rather than a "moral high ground".

Though there are different academic standards and different promises made, Alabama still carried three players through their senior seasons, who worked hard but barely saw the playing field.

All that being said, the difference in three games and a 10-2 season arguably was one play in each game.

 

[Legacy]

SEC East (selected) Scholarship situations

SEC East (selected) Scholarship situations

I am ignoring Vandy and Kentucky.

Florida is in the hole. At this point, they have nine commits and have had ten decommitments. If all the Redshirt Senior come back for a fifth year and they have no attrition, they are at 75 scholarship players. They have ten scholarships to give.

Georgia has 25 commitments for 2015. At this point, with all redshirts seniors coming back, they would be at 87 now. They have 5 solid targets. They enrolled 26 recruits in 2013 and 21 recruits in 2014. With five arrests/dismissals and one player get a medical scholarship last year, they fell short of 85 scholarships by the end of the year.

South Carolina was in the hole last year when so many of their commitments did not qualify. This year so far they have 27 commitments. If all their redshirt seniors come back, they would be at 89 now. No current targets.

Tennessee has 25 commits and 6 targets. With the current number of commits and if all the redshirt seniors come back, they would be at 87 now. Tennessee's last two classes were 23 and 32, all enrolled. They could still offer walk-ons scholarships this year.

Tennessee and Georgia would be ones to watch for fourth year Seniors not being offered a fifth, transfers, and other attrition - medical, etc. South Carolina will have its attrition, perhaps non-qualifiers, too.

 

[MNIrishman]

I am ignoring Vandy and Kentucky.

Florida is in the hole. At this point, they have nine commits and have had ten decommitments. If all the Redshirt Senior come back for a fifth year and they have no attrition, they are at 75 scholarship players. They have ten scholarships to give.

Georgia has 25 commitments for 2015. At this point, with all redshirts seniors coming back, they would be at 87 now. They have 5 solid targets. They enrolled 26 recruits in 2013 and 21 recruits in 2014. With five arrests/dismissals and one player get a medical scholarship last year, they fell short of 85 scholarships by the end of the year.

South Carolina was in the hole last year when so many of their commitments did not qualify. This year so far they have 27 commitments. If all their redshirt seniors come back, they would be at 89 now. No current targets.

Tennessee has 25 commits and 6 targets. With the current number of commits and if all the redshirt seniors come back, they would be at 87 now. Tennessee's last two classes were 23 and 32, all enrolled. They could still offer walk-ons scholarships this year.

Tennessee and Georgia would be ones to watch for fourth year Seniors not being offered a fifth, transfers, and other attrition - medical, etc.

The SEC west is better known for the practice of oversigning. What's that situation like presently?

 

[Legacy]

The SEC west is more well known for the practice of oversigning. What's that situation like presently?

You don't ask much. I'll get back to you.

 

[Legacy]

Alabama Oversigning

Alabama Oversigning

Oversigning Index: On another front, it's still Alabama and everyone else
The Chart towards the bottom is illustrative of signing class numbers with returning scholarship players for NCAA schools. However, the author includes ten players from the 2009 class (to come to his total 95). Most had exhausted their eligibility.

The following is the most accurate article on scholarship numbers crunching just before Signing Day, 2014 (from Roll Bama Roll). The comments are interesting.

2014 Roster Lookahead: The Number Crunch
"So here's the final tally - if we sign 27 (and they all qualify academically), Bama will basically have to cut eight guys that don't have their degrees yet. I want to emphasize that there really isn't any wiggle room here. No amount of backcounting/sleight of hand helps with these final numbers. Unless some of the 16 unenrolled current commits are going to take a greyshirt (and not sign on national signing day), those slots will have to come from the current roster."

Here's how Saban reduced the scholarship numbers to 85 by the fall roster (NCAA rules):
- the 2014 class of 27 turned into 25 with two not qualifying (eight reduced to six), two others were possible academic casualties but by fall had met all the requirements - and could have brought the number down further
- one player transferred to Ohio State for his fifth year (five)
- 2 players transferred (July, August) (down to three)
- 3 players eligible for fifth years were not offered (zero, to 85)

Saban had a higher rate of arrests during 2014 than usual, suspending all six players. Less serious offenses - DUI, crossing a police barrier to get to his car, resisting arrest (leaving a loud party against police orders), mj possession. All but one, who transferred, were reinstated, but in his doghouse. Had to start on third string after resolution of charges. His conferences showed his frustrations with the arrests.

Two players in the 2014 class had previously been suspended (2012,2013) and dismissed from the schools - one from Ala, one from Ga. He felt they had demonstrated behavior worthy of second opportunities. Neither has had problems this year.

 

[BGIF]

Lies, Lies, Lies!

Alabama does not oversign. I heard that in T'Town.

Oh, the jealousy!

 

[NDRock]

Here's how Saban reduced the scholarship numbers to 85 by the fall roster (NCAA rules):

- the 2014 class of 27 turned into 25 with two not qualifying (eight reduced to six), two others were possible academic casualties but by fall had met all the requirements - and could have brought the number down further
- one player transferred to Ohio State for his fifth year (five)
- 2 players transferred (July, August) (down to three)
- 3 players eligible for fifth years were not offered (zero, to 85)

The only players that look "suspicious" are the two that transferred in July/August, the others I would not consider problematic. ND does not offer a 5th year to every kid that is eligible, nor should they. Why should Alabama?

I would have no issue if ND used potential 5th year guys as a way to get down to 85, as long as they were up front about it to the athlete.

 

[Legacy]

One of the comments from the Roll Bama Roll article:
"College Football is big business...
Regardless if we want to call it that or not. Winning produces a financial windfall for the University. Losing creates a drain on earnings. In order to win more games you get the best athletes to increase your odds of success.

Scholarship players get something for signing with Bama. Competition for starting positions/playing time comes with that. Either you have what it takes to get playing time or you do not. Those who don’t make the grade to get the playing time, due to various reasons, will most likely be out of a scholarship opportunity.

If this happens to an avg of 8 players/year, you’re avg less than 10% churn on personnel/schollies. The idealist will say that’s unacceptable while the realist will say 90% is a pretty darn good success rate.

I leave it up to y’all to figure out which side of the fence you’re on."

 

[Legacy]

The only players that look "suspicious" are the two that transferred in July/August, the others I would not consider problematic. ND does not offer a 5th year to every kid that is eligible, nor should they. Why should Alabama?

I would have no issue if ND used potential 5th year guys as a way to get down to 85, as long as they were up front about it to the athlete.

Both of the two transfers were towards the bottom of the depth chart at their position.

Dee Hart, RB, (class of 2009) transferred to Colo St (HC-McElwain, former OC at Ala) for a fifth year where he rushed for over 1200 yds. Parker McLeod, QB, third string, transferred to Western Kentucky and sat out this year. W.Kty has a high powered offense, ranking 3rd nationally in Passing Offense for 2013.

No medical redshirts BTW.

 

[GowerND11]

The only players that look "suspicious" are the two that transferred in July/August, the others I would not consider problematic. ND does not offer a 5th year to every kid that is eligible, nor should they. Why should Alabama?

I would have no issue if ND used potential 5th year guys as a way to get down to 85, as long as they were up front about it to the athlete.

I think the major problem/difference is that the student athletes at Notre Dame are to graduate in 4 years in order to come back for a 5th year as a graduate student. At many other schools, these student athletes are put in "easy athletics based majors where they take the minimum course work, live with other athletes," and so on. Therefore, while not offering all 5th years is the same, yes, there is a difference in that our students always have that degree after four years.

 

[NDRock]

I think the major problem/difference is that the student athletes at Notre Dame are to graduate in 4 years in order to come back for a 5th year as a graduate student. At many other schools, these student athletes are put in "easy athletics based majors where they take the minimum course work, live with other athletes," and so on. Therefore, while not offering all 5th years is the same, yes, there is a difference in that our students always have that degree after four years.

I agree, which makes it even crazier that ND refuses to "oversign" (and by oversign I mean having potentially more than 85 scholarship players after signing day). Even if they didn't ask some of their 5th year players back, the player would have already graduated meaning ND would have done its part. I don't think ND should ever "cut" a kid that has not graduated but they can "oversign" ethically.

 

[Legacy]

I agree, which makes it even crazier that ND refuses to "oversign" (and by oversign I mean having potentially more than 85 scholarship players after signing day). Even if they didn't ask some of their 5th year players back, the player would have already graduated meaning ND would have done its part. I don't think ND should ever "cut" a kid that has not graduated but they can "oversign" ethically.

OFD has a Scholarship Breakdown, with emphasis on the number of current class commitments and how that will affect possible fifth year seniors.

In a way, the Irish always "oversign" with an idea of whom they will invite for a fifth year. Using OFD's categories, ND has eight "Tier 1" seniors (out of sixteen) with eligibility for one more year. With current 2015 class commitments (22), at this time only six of those eight can be invited back to reach 85. The staff seems to want to add: 1-2 RBs, 1 TE, 2 Ss, 1 CB, 1 WR/Ath, which is 6-7 more 2015 commitments. Of course, there will be attrition.

But, many teams have more fifth year seniors than ND does either because they oversign or - like Stanford or NW, for instance - do not have classes as large as ND's. In addition to opening up scholarships for an incoming class, oversigning with resultant transfers, etc. indirectly opens fifth year spots.

But with ND's commitment to students for a four year scholarship, the incoming class size does not force transfers from Juniors. To oversign with the result of approaching a junior who is not on the two deep with the encouragement to transfer is not something ND does.

Would you want that practice to change?

 

[RDU Irish]

5th years have never been assumed as guaranteed on any level. I would never want the 4 year commitment to be compromised.

 

[phgreek]

I'm rethinking the approach...

if you look at attrition by career ending injuries and ailments I bet ND averages between 1 and 2 of those a year. As well, 1-2 a year for suspensions/expulsions and transfers. I'd be looking to be at more than 85 to start with...like 88 maybe...and really timing is everything in this game...

 

[Legacy]

I'm rethinking the approach...

if you look at attrition by career ending injuries and ailments I bet ND averages between 1 and 2 of those a year. As well, 1-2 a year for suspensions/expulsions and transfers. I'd be looking to be at more than 85 to start with...like 88 maybe...and really timing is everything in this game...

Coaches usually are not surprised by those career-ending injuries when they are thinking about incoming class size or inviting someone back for a fifth year. They also like to have a scholarship or two open to offer a deserving walk-on, ND gave out four this year after invitations for fifth years.

Looking at injury lists prior to the bowls and eliminating those who are questionable for the bowls, who have been dismissed/suspensions/left team, you end up with the "out for the season" injuries. ND had five. Three more are questionable or doubtful. Plus the four academic issues.

About ten teams or more have five season-ending injuries like the Irish. Here's those with more:
VaTech - 11
Maryland - 10
Nebraska, Ohio State, Utah - 8
Florida, Iowa, Minnesota, Texas, Utah State - 7
East Carolina, Georgia, Houston, Miamia(Fl), Pittsburgh - 6

Whether those will end up being career-ening injuries or not remains to be seen.

When you think about adding one more in your recruiting classes per year, how much difference would that make? The season is over by Signing Day. A career-ending injury could happen in the spring, but most are in the fall and cannot be planned for.

 

[Legacy]

Ole Miss oversigning

Ole Miss oversigning

In the four recruiting classes from 2008-11, Ole Miss signed 123 recruits, including 15 Jucos. Houston Nutt became famous, after signing 37 recruits in the 2009 class, for signing and working it out later. That also led a couple of years later for the SEC to change their recruiting rules, limiting scholarships to 25 per year and 50 in rolling two years as well as determining all signees as "counters" towards those limits - the "Houston Nutt Rule".

How did his oversigning work out?

By 2012, only 56 recruits remained out of those 123.

In the 2009 class of 37 in February (plus one Grayshirt from 2008), only 26 enrolled in the fall. Of the ten who did not, eight did not qualify. Three accepted a Grayshirt. One became a walk-on. By Oct, 2009, one more had quit the team and another had a career-ending injury. Down to 24. Within a year, three more were suspended and dismissed. The class of 2009 was reduced to 21 from 37.

The 2010 class was 24 plus the three Grayshirts from the previous year. One of the 24 did not qualify.

Attrition Numbers for Ole Miss Football Since 2008