VOTE Election day 11/04/2014

[wizards8507]

Yeah I don't understand the problem with having ID to vote. Can someone explain why they feel it's unjust to have you license/state ID with you?

The argument is that poor people don't have IDs, so requiring the ID prevents poor people from voting. However, I believe every state that has voter ID laws also offers a free state ID, so the argument is crap.

Did you start singing "Happiness is a Warm Gun?"

Bang bang, shoot shoot.

 

[GowerND11]

The argument is that poor people don't have IDs, so requiring the ID prevents poor people from voting. However, I believe every state that has voter ID laws also offers a free state ID, so the argument is crap.


Bang bang, shoot shoot.

It's only $30.00 in PA anyway. I know there was a push for the Votre ID Law, but it was struck down here. But seriously, I feel like you can afford the $30.00 every 4 years....

 

[wizards8507]

It's only $30.00 in PA anyway. I know there was a push for the Votre ID Law, but it was struck down here. But seriously, I feel like you can afford the $30.00 every 4 years....

Well yeah I was giving the "this is what we say in public" reason against the IDs. The REAL reason against the IDs is that some folks quite like voter fraud.

 

[GowerND11]

Well yeah I was giving the "this is what we say in public" reason against the IDs. The REAL reason against the IDs is that some folks quite like voter fraud.

Oh yeah I know what you meant, just couldn't believe it held water. Then again, guess I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[ACamp1900]

I always hear about it from a race standpoint, forget 'poor',... I honestly take the 'well minorities and such won’t be able to vote because they can't get ID's' as pretty insulting in and of itself... I mean, a number of states give IDs for free (about ten or so I think) and I believe the most expense ID in the country is about 30 bucks, most average around five-ten bucks or so... again, to my knowledge... are we saying minorities are too hapless and stupid to (at worst) walk to the DMV with ten bucks in their pocket?? As usual, it's a baseless attack meant to stir emotions (In fairness both sides are very guilty of this crap). To be very frank, I don’t want anyone (regardless of age, color, religion or otherwise) who can’t even run their own lives well enough to get a basic state ID impacting the vote to begin with. Just my thoughts, I know some will disagree and that’s fine, enjoy election day.

 

[Corry]

I always hear about it from a race standpoint, forget 'poor',... I honestly take the 'well minorities and such won’t be able to vote because they can't get ID's' as pretty insulting in and of itself... I mean, a number of states give IDs for free (about ten or so I think) and I believe the most expense ID in the country is about 30 bucks, most average around five-ten bucks or so... again, to my knowledge... are we saying minorities are too hapless and stupid to (at worst) walk to the DMV with ten bucks in their pocket?? As usual, it's a baseless attack meant to stir emotions (In fairness both sides are very guilty of this crap). To be very frank, I don’t want anyone (regardless of age, color, religion or otherwise) who can’t even run their own lives well enough to get a basic state ID impacting the vote to begin with. Just my thoughts, I know some will disagree and that’s fine, enjoy election day.

All very valid points, but you're talking about elections that in most cases come down to the wire. A few percentage points here or there can decide an election.

 

[T Town Tommy]

I always hear about it from a race standpoint, forget 'poor',... I honestly take the 'well minorities and such won’t be able to vote because they can't get ID's' as pretty insulting in and of itself... I mean, a number of states give IDs for free (about ten or so I think) and I believe the most expense ID in the country is about 30 bucks, most average around five-ten bucks or so... again, to my knowledge... are we saying minorities are too hapless and stupid to (at worst) walk to the DMV with ten bucks in their pocket?? As usual, it's a baseless attack meant to stir emotions (In fairness both sides are very guilty of this crap). To be very frank, I don’t want anyone (regardless of age, color, religion or otherwise) who can’t even run their own lives well enough to get a basic state ID impacting the vote to begin with. Just my thoughts, I know some will disagree and that’s fine, enjoy election day.

Isn't there an app that poor people can download on their iphone to show their identity?

Showing an ID to vote should be a requirement in every state. Stating that the requirement is a barrier to poor people voting is ridiculous. Most already have some form of approved ID anyway. And those that don't can get one easily. Just another way to circumvent the One Person One Vote principle - looking at you Chicago and Ohio.

 

[pkt77242]

Well yeah I was giving the "this is what we say in public" reason against the IDs. The REAL reason against the IDs is that some folks quite like voter fraud.

Bullshit. In person voter fraud (showing up and saying you are someone else) is practically nonexistent. The area for fraud that we should be worried about is vote by mail.

 

[wizards8507]

Bullshit. In person voter fraud (showing up and saying you are someone else) is practically nonexistent.

If we implemented voter ID laws it would be LITERALLY nonexistent. Isn't "literally nonexistent" fraud better than "practically nonexistent" fraud?

 

[ACamp1900]

I hope the winner isn't a Democrat... or a Republican.

 

[GoIrish41]

Yeah I don't understand the problem with having ID to vote. Can someone explain why they feel it's unjust to have you license/state ID with you?

Can't speak for anyone but me, but I don't have an issue with showing ID to vote. Over the past couple of election cycles, however, there have been attempts to make laws that prescribed very particular IDs to vote -- leaving out student ID cards and other types of identification that many would consider to be perfectly acceptable. To complicate matters further, several of these attempts happened in very short time spans right before elections were to happen. In large cities like Philadelphia, where many, many people rely on public transportation and have no need of a drivers licence, there were people pushing these folks to get special ID cards in order to vote. To get them, they needed two forms of ID, one of them being a licence (which they did not have). As a Dem, it is an uneasy feeling because many of these voters (Philadelphia is Democratic-leaning city historically) who have voted their entire lives were being asked to change the way they have done so in a short period of time. These voters were also predominantly African American, which caused the whole racial element of the potential laws to be brought up. These laws were also accompanied by other laws that restricted early voting, in some cases in democrat voting districts and not in republican districts, which is just fundamentally wrong.

I've said for several years that I am not against required voter ID laws to be enacted, so long as they are enacted the day after the current election to give people ample time to change the way they have grown accustomed to voting before the next election. However, these arguments always seem to fade away when the election is over and the outcome for the particular election is decided. This has always led me to believe that the entire argument is one of political convenience, as are the discussions about rampant voter fraud that study after study has shown does not exist.

So, long story short, I'm not against voter IDs so long as they are reasonable laws that bring them and that there is as much time as possible to convert people from old habits to new. If this issues is brought up tomorrow, I will advocate for it. However, I think that tomorrow, all those who seem to make this a central issue during every election will no longer pursue it.

 

[RDU Irish]

Bullshit. Prosecution of in person voter fraud (showing up and saying you are someone else) is practically nonexistent. The area for fraud that we should be worried about is vote by mail.

FIFY

In the same vein - do you leave your car and house unlocked at all times? If you are in an area that has no reported crime why would you?

 

[GoIrish41]

If we implemented voter ID laws it would be LITERALLY nonexistent. Isn't "literally nonexistent" fraud better than "practically nonexistent" fraud?

You conservatives .... always wanting to throw millions of dollars at a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[IrishLax]

FiveThirtyEight’s Senate Forecast | FiveThirtyEight

So looks like the over/under on Republican Senators after today is right at 52. Trend has been very strong in R column the last few weeks.

No voter ID in North Carolina until 2016 so I like Hagen's chances to hold on while she looks like about a 1 point favorite going in.

Only race I care about is Warner in Virginia. He's awesome, has a business background so he's generally informed and pragmatic, was amazing as a Governor, and is about as "ideal" a politician you can have on either side of the aisle.

His opponent is a fucking lobbyist/career politician.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Any particular reason?

Yes.

 

[wizards8507]

You conservatives .... always wanting to throw millions of dollars at a problem that doesn't exist.

1. Libertarian

2. Of the few things a libertarian sees as legitimate functions of government, protecting the integrity of elections is right up there. (This is actually contrary to the official Libertarian Party platform, but they can suck an egg.)

 

[pkt77242]

If we implemented voter ID laws it would be LITERALLY nonexistent. Isn't "literally nonexistent" fraud better than "practically nonexistent" fraud?

There is something like 12 documented cases between 2000-2012. Also it wouldn't literally be nonexistent because you would still have fake ID's or even people that looked similar using IDs. So literally nonexistent is not a reality. There has been around 728 million votes in that time (rounding down on each election) which puts the number so small that it isn't worth even dealing with. Why don't our elected officials deal with real issues instead of phantom ones

Also voter ID laws lower turnout by about 2%. So stop the 12 voter fraud votes we disenfranchise 2%. Sounds like a great plan.

 

[RDU Irish]

Solving a Mystery in Philadelphia Voting Patterns | MyFDL

Philly more than "leans" democrat. I think it went 82% and 85% to Obama in 2008/2012 with zero votes for Romney in a number of precincts.

I agree that time to implement is necessary although a few months notice is more than adequate IMO.

 

[wizards8507]

Also voter ID laws lower turnout by about 2%. So stop the 12 voter fraud votes we disenfranchise 2%. Sounds like a great plan.

There's a big difference between disenfranchisement (YOU SHALL NOT VOTE) and disinterest (I can't be bothered to go to the DMV and get a free ID so I choose not to vote).

Also, I call bullshit on the poor urban people being the ones who have such a hard time getting an ID. If you're out in the mountains of Wyoming, I'm guessing it's a lot harder to get to the DMV than if you can hop on the train from your apartment Brooklyn. And I bet none of those poor people have EVER bought a drop of alcohol, since, you know, that requires an ID too.

 

[GoIrish41]

1. Libertarian

2. Of the few things a libertarian sees as legitimate functions of government, protecting the integrity of elections is right up there.

The integrity of the elections is not in question, to my knowledge. Changes to voter laws, in my opinion, should lean toward making voting easier, not more difficult. While I am willing to conceded to those right of my beliefs that having an ID card is not complete outrage (see my post above), as an American it should be our goal that everyone who is eligible to cast a vote does so after educating themselves on the choices. It is the very essence of a Representative Democracy. Restrictive laws that diminish the electorate are un-American, IMHO.

 

[RDU Irish]

There is something like 12 documented cases between 2000-2012. Also it wouldn't literally be nonexistent because you would still have fake ID's or even people that looked similar using IDs. So literally nonexistent is not a reality. There has been around 728 million votes in that time (rounding down on each election) which puts the number so small that it isn't worth even dealing with. Why don't our elected officials deal with real issues instead of phantom ones

Also voter ID laws lower turnout by about 2%. So stop the 12 voter fraud votes we disenfranchise 2%. Sounds like a great plan.

Maybe 2% were illegally voting? If anything, that stat only supports the case FOR voter ID!! Are you telling me 1 in 50 people are scared to show ID to a poll worker, or so grossly inconvenienced by needing an ID?

Imagine someone always drives 10mph over the speed limit down a road they commute to work for 40 years. Then imagine speed cameras are installed on that road with ample notice. Do you think they might stop speeding, or take a different route to work altogether?

 

[pkt77242]

FIFY

In the same vein - do you leave your car and house unlocked at all times? If you are in an area that has no reported crime why would you?

I have never heard of an area with no reported crime but I do know that my wife's grandparents who live in rural Wisconsin do leave their doors unlocked and leave their keys in the car and have for 50+ years.

Even if the number of in person voter fraud cases is 1000 (which to the best of our info it isn't) that is with over 728 million votes. That number is .00000137362

Vote by mail is significantly more likely to induce fraud yet we are doing little to nothing about it but lets pass all the Voter ID laws we can for in person voting to prevent fraud when it is virtually nonexistent.

 

[pkt77242]

Maybe 2% were illegally voting? If anything, that stat only supports the case FOR voter ID!! Are you telling me 1 in 50 people are scared to show ID to a poll worker, or so grossly inconvenienced by needing an ID?

Imagine someone always drives 10mph over the speed limit down a road they commute to work for 40 years. Then imagine speed cameras are installed on that road with ample notice. Do you think they might stop speeding, or take a different route to work altogether?

Actually somewhere between 5-10% of registered voters in Pennsylvanian don't have a valid form of ID and that is coming from the state.

 

[GoIrish41]

Solving a Mystery in Philadelphia Voting Patterns | MyFDL

Philly more than "leans" democrat. I think it went 82% and 85% to Obama in 2008/2012 with zero votes for Romney in a number of precincts.

I agree that time to implement is necessary although a few months notice is more than adequate IMO.

For the sake of us who disagree with your opinion, I would ask that you encourage whomever you voted for to make this an issue beginning tomorrow morning. I will gladly get behind any politician who puts forth a reasonable law that requires ID, so long as it does not diminish anyone's right to cast their vote.

 

[pkt77242]

There's a big difference between disenfranchisement (YOU SHALL NOT VOTE) and disinterest (I can't be bothered to go to the DMV and get a free ID so I choose not to vote).

Also, I call bullshit on the poor urban people being the ones who have such a hard time getting an ID. If you're out in the mountains of Wyoming, I'm guessing it's a lot harder to get to the DMV than if you can hop on the train from your apartment Brooklyn. And I bet none of those poor people have EVER bought a drop of alcohol, since, you know, that requires an ID too.

Voter ID laws disenfranchise poor people but poverty is more prevalent amongst minorities so it disproportionally hurts them more.

Also as far as alcohol goes I am 33 and I haven't been carded in years so that whole you need an ID to buy alcohol is bullshit. You need it if you look 21 but in many states you won't get carded if you love 30+.

 

[wizards8507]

Actually somewhere between 5-10% of registered voters in Pennsylvanian don't have a valid form of ID and that is coming from the state.

Those 5-10% have CHOSEN not to get an ID. There's no great burden on them to require one. 10% without an ID doesn't mean 10% can't vote. Those 10% can get themselves to the DMV, get their ID, and then 100% of people can vote.

 

[ACamp1900]

You need it if you look 21 but in many states you won't get carded if you love 30+.

What if you love people of all ages???

 

[pkt77242]

Those 5-10% have CHOSEN not to get an ID. There's no great burden on them to require one. 10% without an ID doesn't mean 10% can't vote. Those 10% can get themselves to the DMV, get their ID, and then 100% of people can vote.

I was responding to RDU when he questioned why voter turnout drops by 2% when voter ID laws are in acted and he claimed that it was most likely fraud. I was pointing out that 5-10% don't have proper ID so it makes sense that it drops and it has nothing to do with fraud.

 

[GoIrish41]

Those 5-10% have CHOSEN not to get an ID. There's no great burden on them to require one. 10% without an ID doesn't mean 10% can't vote. Those 10% can get themselves to the DMV, get their ID, and then 100% of people can vote.

100 percent of the people can vote now. How 'bout we don't spend millions of dollars or burden voters (you ever been to the DMV?) to solve a problem that does not exist.

 

[wizards8507]

Voter ID laws disenfranchise poor people but poverty is more prevalent amongst minorities so it disproportionally hurts them more.

Honestly, I don't think you know what disenfranchise means.

"Black people can't vote" is disenfranchisement because a black man is a black man and there's nothing to be done about it.

"Women can't vote" is disenfranchisement because a woman is a woman and there's nothing to be done about it.

"People without an ID can't vote" is NOT disenfranchisement because there's virtually zero burden on an individual without an ID to go out and GET ONE. He can leave the category of "person without an ID" easily; therefore "person without an ID" is not a protected class.