'15 OH LB Justin Hilliard (Ohio State Verbal)

[phork]

This post is depressing....I disagree with all of it...Kelly walked into a qb nightmare and that is finally over.

USC has done nothing with all of their star power....

QB nightmare that is still going on. As for USC well, Kiffin sucked. Pete did just fine. Several beatdowns handed to ND.

Dude we have said this since 2011 that "X year is our year." Respectfully, this season is our season.

No its next year. NDs predicted comeback year can be solved by this equation:

NDsYear=(CurrentYear+1)

I'm not saying play for 2015 or that's "our year" I'm just talking about judging Kelly's ability to challenge for the top. There is lots of talent on this roster but there will also be some unusual challenges (also including an entirely new defensive scheme) that I'm not figuratively defenstrating Kelly if the Irish go 9-3.

Right, exactly. Its always something. QB, suspensions, new defense, etc etc.

Ahh... yes, because you think we didn't belong translates to "it didn't actually happen".


It sounds stupid when you say its impossible for us to do something we just did because it was a "fluke".

Step off of the ledge, dude. We lost a recruiting battle, it happens every year. We've been recruiting on an elite level since BK showed up.

What did we do? We backed into a NC game that any number of other teams that year would have fared better. I'm not on any ledge dood. My outlook is realistic. So there is my point again. We've been recruiting elitely since BK has been here. And in year 5, where are we? By most accounts, so far, in this post, most expect this schedule to murder us. Are you happy with another 8-5 campaign with all this elite talent?

I would agree that it would be difficult, given our restrictions, to consistently compete for titles, i.e., bama. I just can't go as far as saying we'll never compete for titles. Kelly has recruited the talent to be a consistently competitive team (top 15). Catch a few breaks, develop talent and lock down one or two five stars each year and we'll make the playoffs a few times a decade.

I like competitive. I'm not sure 8-5 is that.

So a coach can't be evaluated until his sixth season?

Only at ND.

I have already concluded he is a good coach.

If you're taking it a step further and talking about whether he can ever put together a team which is genuinely the best in CFB then I think judgment should be withheld until he has had time to fill the roster with his guys and circumstances are favorable.

Its year 5, this roster is his. What is your definition of "favorable" circumstances.

Kelly has a 71% winning percentage since his time at ND. That equates to 9.25 wins per year. I think the real number is 10 wins per year. If he can consistently do that it'll be considered a huge success. So he is just short of that number and doing so against an extremely tough schedule.

He'll be regarded as a succes. And a good coach. Never a great coach. John Cooper had similar success, but always lost to Michigan. He is a footnote in the books of CFB history.

ND's restrictions are nothing. Win and ALL the big recruits will come. the talent level is on campus now. Win 10-11+ games for a few years-which is extremely doable-and ND shows some stability with winning - all will be okay.

Talent-ND has it
Facilities-ND has it
Coach-ND has it
History/Lore/Fans-ND has it
Name Recognition-ND has it
Education-ND has it
Contacts after graduation-ND has it
Wins-working on it. plan is in place and ND is moving in that direction.

Fbolt, that again is my point. ND will not win 10-11 games a year to make your idea a reality. Therefore, not getting the guys ND actually needs to succeed. Rather, get the guys needed to push them over the top. Its a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[irishfan]

I was just going to say this. This is the reason why I don't think ND will compete for a National Championship for a very long time if ever again. And don't say 2012 either, because any one of us knows in the deep dark recesses of our minds that ND didn't belong.

Academics don't matter to 95%, or higher, of the kids out there. Especially 5* star talent. So how do you offset that? You bring in superior coaching. Where is superior coaching found? Beats me. Kelly has done well and built a solid program, unlike Weis who did it with smoke and mirrors. The program will sustain, until he leaves. And then we'll flutter back into mediocrity for a years until you find another program builder.

I just don't think we'll get enough 5* guys to make a difference and I just don't think Kelly is going to be the guy to push the 4* over the top.

This year will tell the tale for me. You have everything you need to be a 10 win team. Can ND beat 10 of those teams?

I find myself agreeing with a majority of this unfortunately. We lack the top-end talent and while Kelly is a great coach, he ain't Saban. Or at least he isn't there yet. When you look at the classes that Bama and LSU and FSU bring in, it's depressing. The 2013 class is Kelly's best one by far IMO and that seems to be what those schools bring in every single year. We've got recruiting years like 2015 where we're content to bring in a "filler" class that would be an average class at best in the SEC. In five years, Kelly has brought in one excellent class, and four that are completely average in the SEC. We need to upgrade the talent, plain and simple. And I'm not sure how that's done apart from winning 10+ games consistently.

In 2014, we had the #11 class on Rivals. Good for 8th in the SEC.
In 2013, we had the #3 class on Rivals. Good for 2nd in the SEC.
In 2012, we had the #20 class on Rivals. Good for 9th in the SEC.
In 2011, we had the #10 class on Rivas. Good for 5th in the SEC.
In 2010, we had the #14 class on Rivals. Good for 6th in the SEC.

I'll say this at least. That 2012 team was nowhere near Bama in talent, but was still a Top-6 team IMO. I don't think we peaked with that 2012 team by any means either.

 

[IrishLion]

Highly-regarded linebacker from Ohio chooses in-state powerhouse to the surprise of no one, sparks furious debate about the past, present and future of ND football anyway.

 

[irishog77]

I find myself agreeing with a majority of this unfortunately. We lack the top-end talent and while Kelly is a great coach, he ain't Saban. Or at least he isn't there yet. When you look at the classes that Bama and LSU and FSU bring in, it's depressing. The 2013 class is Kelly's best one by far IMO and that seems to be what those schools bring in every single year. We've got recruiting years like 2015 where we're content to bring in a "filler" class that would be an average class at best in the SEC.

I'll say this at least. That 2012 team was nowhere near Bama in talent, but was still a Top-6 team IMO. I don't think we peaked with that 2012 team by any means either.

Agreed.

I think we can all reasonably agree BK is a good coach (top 10ish, some will undoubtedly claim he's top 1 or 2, and some will claim he's top 20-30...but putting him somewhere between 6-15 seems quite safe) and has done good things at ND.

I don't think people are jumping off a ledge at all because some 17 year old didn't pick ND today. I think some may be disappointed because if ND is simply only on par with other schools when it comes to coaching, then where do they make up the difference? I think the answer is recruiting.

I've brought this up before. One can make comparisons all they want about the number of 3-Stars ND signs compared to Team X, but ND and BK are not doing a good job of bringing in difference makers (and/or keeping them in school). Difference makers are what win championships. So yeah, on one hand it's no big deal that Hilliard didn't pick ND, but on one hand it is-- a legit 5-star, a difference maker from the midwest (and at a position of need), who seemingly had genuine interest in ND, but didn't pick the Irish. How many times is ND even realistically in a recruiting battle for guys like that? Who's the next difference maker ND can and will land at LB?

Now posters are writing that this a good class. That we're getting "fillers" and "depth." That's great and all...but we were told the same thing with this past class-- depth, fillers, and guys who need time to develop their extremely high ceilings. I can buy in on a class like that or even some players like that. But not 2 years in a row. I think that's a rationalization attempt. Kind of like the posters who have stated 2015 will be the year we truly find out how good BK is. 6 years to determine that? If somebody truly believes that, then that is another rationalization attempt. I get that the QB situation has sucked. I get that BK and ND have faced other obstacles as well. Other teams face obstacles though too, and somehow, they overcome them. At a certain point the rationalizations are just excuses. And I grow tired of excuses of why things can't be done.

Now, having said all that, I don't think this recruiting class is in the crapper (can still get some good players and maybe even a couple difference makers as well too), nor do I think ND is doomed and destined to win 8 or 9 games this year and for the foreseeable future. Great recruiting classes and Natty contention is still very much a possibility.

But we will see.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Here to eat crow: From what I gather ESPN made no report on Hilliard and Cornell picking OSU "over ND." My main beef was in regards to Cornell because it just isn't true, but it doesn't seem they went that route anyways. (Seems other sites did though according to TP's earlier tweet). But I digress...ESPN, my bad. Best of luck to those two kids. Just wish it was in ND's favor.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

To the people comparing ND's classes with the LSUs and Bamas...you'd be better off comparing ND's classes with Stanford's. It's more apples to apples that way.

How often do you hear people complain about Stanford's recruiting classes? Rarely...because the recruits they do get are panning out and the product on the field has been consistent for years now. ND will never recruit with Bama and LSU...they can however be like Stanford. And that kind of sustained success is what drives a program to Powerhouse status. I like the 5stars, but I like wins better. And I don't care who ND wins with, as long as they win. BK has been winning...QB issues and all...at a 70%+ clip. Pretty much 9 wins a season...10+ with a better QB. I'll take that all day.

 

[dang227]

"At first, I didn't care if Justin left the state for college," said Carl Hilliard, the prospect's father. "Then I met Coach Meyer and he was so accessible, so caring. He's going to take care of Justin, and at that point started to feel that Ohio State was home. Ohio State is the in-state program, and they made it clear that home was the best place for Justin. And we believe it is."

 

[dang227]

"Notre Dame was the hardest one to get past while making my decision," Hilliard said. "That was the other one that really made it tough."

 

[Luckylucci]

"At first, I didn't care if Justin left the state for college," said Carl Hilliard, the prospect's father. "Then I met Coach Meyer and he was so accessible, so caring. He's going to take care of Justin, and at that point started to feel that Ohio State was home. Ohio State is the in-state program, and they made it clear that home was the best place for Justin. And we believe it is."

It just blows my mind that adults actually believe this stuff. Especially adults that seem to be grounded or relatively intelligent.

 

[ulukinatme]

OSU will get theres, ND will get theres, all will be right in the world. Such as it always is, such as it always will be. Football is less than 2 months away...that's all that matters.

 

[Bluto]

I find myself agreeing with a majority of this unfortunately. We lack the top-end talent and while Kelly is a great coach, he ain't Saban. Or at least he isn't there yet. When you look at the classes that Bama and LSU and FSU bring in, it's depressing. The 2013 class is Kelly's best one by far IMO and that seems to be what those schools bring in every single year. We've got recruiting years like 2015 where we're content to bring in a "filler" class that would be an average class at best in the SEC. In five years, Kelly has brought in one excellent class, and four that are completely average in the SEC. We need to upgrade the talent, plain and simple. And I'm not sure how that's done apart from winning 10+ games consistently.

In 2014, we had the #11 class on Rivals. Good for 8th in the SEC.
In 2013, we had the #3 class on Rivals. Good for 2nd in the SEC.
In 2012, we had the #20 class on Rivals. Good for 9th in the SEC.
In 2011, we had the #10 class on Rivas. Good for 5th in the SEC.
In 2010, we had the #14 class on Rivals. Good for 6th in the SEC.

I'll say this at least. That 2012 team was nowhere near Bama in talent, but was still a Top-6 team IMO. I don't think we peaked with that 2012 team by any means either.

Been reading negative nancy posts today. This one is a bit more balanced. To build on what you said FSU was marginal until Winston showed up despite talent all over the field on both sides of the ball, so yeah having a good QB can make all the difference. Georgia last year was a huge disappointment due to injuries, so that can impact a season in a big way, which it did for ND last year. So, better QB play last year = at least one more win. Healthy D and who knows but easily at least one more win. There's your 10 wins right there. Anyhow, shit happens.

 

[goldandblue]

To the people comparing ND's classes with the LSUs and Bamas...you'd be better off comparing ND's classes with Stanford's. It's more apples to apples that way.

How often do you hear people complain about Stanford's recruiting classes? Rarely...because the recruits they do get are panning out and the product on the field has been consistent for years now. ND will never recruit with Bama and LSU...they can however be like Stanford. And that kind of sustained success is what drives a program to Powerhouse status. I like the 5stars, but I like wins better. And I don't care who ND wins with, as long as they win. BK has been winning...QB issues and all...at a 70%+ clip. Pretty much 9 wins a season...10+ with a better QB. I'll take that all day.

Good post and reps. I believe that Notre Dame can recruit closely with the Bamas and the LSUs of the world but it takes winning. Look at the 2013 class. Success breeds success. Last year we were 8-4 that does not entice the big name recruits to come to ND. There are some areas where will never be able to recruit with other schools when it comes to academic issues. We can have top 5 recruiting classes but we have to win.

I mean shit, right now we are sitting at number 8 in the country and people are moaning and whining. We will hopefully pick up Boykin this afternoon and that will help. Chill folks.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Ask all of the scholarship players that Urban suggested (told them they play like crap and told you should transfer and then pulls out the transfer papers right in front of them) that they transfer how wonderfully caring he is. LOL

Urban's been able to peddle his crap wherever he is how wonderful and caring he is, only to see him pull up stakes whenever it benefits him in any way. Urban cares deeply for one person, obviously himself.

 

[NCND]

Ask all of the scholarship players that Urban suggested (told them they play like crap and told you should transfer and then pulls out the transfer papers right in front of them) that they transfer how wonderfully caring he is. LOL

Urban's been able to peddle his crap wherever he is how wonderful and caring he is, only to see him pull up stakes whenever it benefits him in any way. Urban cares deeply for one person, obviously himself.

While winning 10-12 games a year. Enough with the Urban Meyer hate.

 

[dang227]

'15 OH LB Justin Hilliard (Ohio State Verbal)

Doesn't matter how many he wins. He is still a scum bag and everything that is wrong with college football in my opinion.


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[IrishFaninTX]

Agreed.

I think we can all reasonably agree BK is a good coach (top 10ish, some will undoubtedly claim he's top 1 or 2, and some will claim he's top 20-30...but putting him somewhere between 6-15 seems quite safe) and has done good things at ND.

I don't think people are jumping off a ledge at all because some 17 year old didn't pick ND today. I think some may be disappointed because if ND is simply only on par with other schools when it comes to coaching, then where do they make up the difference? I think the answer is recruiting.

I've brought this up before. One can make comparisons all they want about the number of 3-Stars ND signs compared to Team X, but ND and BK are not doing a good job of bringing in difference makers (and/or keeping them in school). Difference makers are what win championships. So yeah, on one hand it's no big deal that Hilliard didn't pick ND, but on one hand it is-- a legit 5-star, a difference maker from the midwest (and at a position of need), who seemingly had genuine interest in ND, but didn't pick the Irish. How many times is ND even realistically in a recruiting battle for guys like that? Who's the next difference maker ND can and will land at LB?

Now posters are writing that this a good class. That we're getting "fillers" and "depth." That's great and all...but we were told the same thing with this past class-- depth, fillers, and guys who need time to develop their extremely high ceilings. I can buy in on a class like that or even some players like that. But not 2 years in a row. I think that's a rationalization attempt. Kind of like the posters who have stated 2015 will be the year we truly find out how good BK is. 6 years to determine that? If somebody truly believes that, then that is another rationalization attempt. I get that the QB situation has sucked. I get that BK and ND have faced other obstacles as well. Other teams face obstacles though too, and somehow, they overcome them. At a certain point the rationalizations are just excuses. And I grow tired of excuses of why things can't be done.

Now, having said all that, I don't think this recruiting class is in the crapper (can still get some good players and maybe even a couple difference makers as well too), nor do I think ND is doomed and destined to win 8 or 9 games this year and for the foreseeable future. Great recruiting classes and Natty contention is still very much a possibility.

But we will see.

I agree with most of what you say but this one part I don't. We have been (realistically) in many recruiting battles with midwest kids who had it down to us and OSU or scUM, MSU, etc. To say we haven't been in many is just not true. And though he picked OSU, Hilliard genuinely was interested in ND. We get good players. When I look at the roster, I see guys like Russell, Jaylon, Shumate, Redfield, Day, Morgan, Rochell, EG, Elmer, Stanley, Nick Martin, Robinson, Brown, Bryant, Folston and I know there are a lot more. Does that sound like ND can't recruit big time recruits? The whole team is not going to be made up of elite blue chip guys but ND has some very athletic and talented players on the team and I mostly named the starters or guys we have seen play. There are more guys that haven't made an impact yet but will get their chance soon.

 

[Irish#1]

Regarding Dad not being happy and what it eventually boiled down to.


TJ,

He's not. Not at all, despite polite talk and appearances as one would expect from a supportive parent.

That's the way it goes, at least for now. Recruiting continues onward and time will determine how things actually work out and how silly much of this obsession is in the end. Good kid and great talent who simply wanted something very different in his next four-year experience. In that sense, he certainly made the right choice -- it couldn't be more different!

So, while the world is ending for some and the program is collapsing because of one still unproven kid's different decision for many others, this might be a good time to take a break from the madness, insanity, unhealthy devotion that often portends little on the front end. Enjoy some summertime fun and remember that a new season's hopes and expressions lie a mere month away -- where everyone is a "5-star beast" and we can finally smack talk opponents rather than ourselves. Just a thought.

If this is true, then I expect him to have some academic problems during his time there, if the reports of his preference of the social life at OSU are true. Seen it with my own kids. Do very well in HS in a somewhat structured and stricter environment, then find the party scene at college and enjoy it way too much.

 

[Irish#1]

Highly-regarded linebacker from Ohio chooses in-state powerhouse to the surprise of no one, sparks furious debate about the past, present and future of ND football anyway.

Brilliant!

 

[koonja]

If this is true, then I expect him to have some academic problems during his time there, if the reports of his preference of the social life at OSU are true. Seen it with my own kids. Do very well in HS in a somewhat structured and stricter environment, then find the party scene at college and enjoy it way too much.

It's OSU though. Even if he doesn't take school seriously, he'll graduate all the same. Braxton miller had a little Asian kid take his classes for him. It's a cakewalk there.

Not saying Hilliard won't take his shit seriously, but if he doesn't well never hear about it.

 

[Crazy Balki]

All hope I had pretty much went out the window the instant I heard Cornell and Hilliard were committing at the same time on the same day. For Cornell, you can have him. There are better prospects on the board and better prospects already on campus. For Hilliard, this just blows. It's disappointing that he bought into Urb's bullshit and made the easy decision, but oh well. This pretty much makes Bilal a must along with either Coney or Masina. So far today is turning out to be a really shitty day, at least in terms of ND.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Cranberry juice for everyone!

There is way too much estrogen on this thread!

And some distinct classless behavior; calling Justin names including scumbag, and making scurrilous innuendo is just classless on our part.

I want to see us get Bilal and have both B's turn out to be "B"etter!

 

[Irish#1]

Cranberry juice for everyone!

There is way too much estrogen on this thread!

And some distinct classless behavior; calling Justin names including scumbag, and making scurrilous innuendo is just classless on our part.

I want to see us get Bilal and have both B's turn out to be "B"etter!

I'd rep ya if I could.

 

[Fbolt]

Fbolt, that again is my point. ND will not win 10-11 games a year to make your idea a reality. Therefore, not getting the guys ND actually needs to succeed. Rather, get the guys needed to push them over the top. Its a self fulfilling prophecy.

It's so easy to take the low road and say something can't be done-but I've been in ND's corner for many years, both good and bad. I'm still believing. Please look elsewhere.

 

[dang227]

Who called Justin a scumbag? If you are referring to me, I called Urban Meyer one not Justin.


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[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Its year 5, this roster is his. What is your definition of "favorable" circumstances.

I can't claim to have it defined, exactly.

I merely submit that having the single most inexperienced roster in college football going against the single toughest schedule would disqualify the 2014 season.

 

[TheTurningPoint]

Guys guys guys. Settle.

This decision like most from a 5star arent about academics, girls, party life,etc.

Its based off football.

There isn't a person on this board that hates ohio st as much as i do. But, I can tell you that he made a decision that in his eyes was the best for him.

Urban may lie to kids, but he does also have great relationships with his teams. I mean the success speaks to that. Do all his teams have great qualities off the field? No. That is what happens when you do recruit and sign 5stars with egos and entitlement issues. But the man can get his kids to play together on Saturdays and he gets his kids to the NFL.

Its easy to sit here and say positive things about the 40 year decision and ND's alumni base, and its the truth. Kids that go to Notre Dame are typically very successful after football.

But you have to keep in mind choosing a school in Hilliards case isnt for the degree. Its for football. Thats his career choice.

Ohio St can sell a scheme. They can sell actual game film of what they are doing on defense. Fickell is still there as a co-dcoord. His principles are still going to be used and they can break down game film and show him what they are doing.

Notre Dame has nothing to sell him on. Pulling up film from Auburn/UGA/etc only goes so far. That isnt executed with film of the players he will be playing side by side with. He cant show how Hilliard fills a weakness or how he be used. Hell, ND cant technically sell who is even playing middle or SAM LB right now.

Obviously BVG can get more indepth than what I said, but I think you can get the just of it. There are more questions than answers at this point with the Notre Dame defense. As fans, we can see how Hilliard fits, and how other players around him will fit. Hilliard doesnt watch 13 Notre Dame games a year, much less keep up to date on every little position change, or team change.

Hilliard doesnt strike me as the type to decommit, but I can tell you ND wont stop recruiting him. They wont be over the top, but they will continue the relationship. If BVG can get the defense turned into what I personally think he can, then it will be an easy sell come Nov/Dec and maybe Hilliard will start thinking about it and seeing a fit. I am definitely not calling him to decommit, but if Jaylon has double digits sacks, it plants a seed that the defense is becoming successful.

These are my thoughts. Take them for what its worth fellas.

 

[irishog77]

I agree with most of what you say but this one part I don't. We have been (realistically) in many recruiting battles with midwest kids who had it down to us and OSU or scUM, MSU, etc. To say we haven't been in many is just not true. And though he picked OSU, Hilliard genuinely was interested in ND. We get good players. When I look at the roster, I see guys like Russell, Jaylon, Shumate, Redfield, Day, Morgan, Rochell, EG, Elmer, Stanley, Nick Martin, Robinson, Brown, Bryant, Folston and I know there are a lot more. Does that sound like ND can't recruit big time recruits? The whole team is not going to be made up of elite blue chip guys but ND has some very athletic and talented players on the team and I mostly named the starters or guys we have seen play. There are more guys that haven't made an impact yet but will get their chance soon.

The first part of the bolded, I didn't say.

The second part of the bolded was my point-- many times 5-star players can pretty much be written off as ever attending ND, or even actually be in the mix for. But not Hilliard. Hilliard is a midwest kid, not too far from ND, at a position of need, and a difference maker. I think ND needs to capitalize on kids like this because there aren't a ton of kids that meet all those criteria.

I don't think ND football will crumble because Hilliard didn't choose ND. I think ND football, however, needs to win these type of kids to compete for and win championships.

 

[ulukinatme]

C'mon, he's a 5 star...we all know that 5 stars never amount to anything at ND.

 

[OCIrish]

Cranberry juice for everyone!

There is way too much estrogen on this thread!

And some distinct classless behavior; calling Justin names including scumbag, and making scurrilous innuendo is just classless on our part.

I want to see us get Bilal and have both B's turn out to be "B"etter!

Good call, Bogs!!!! You've been repped!!!!!

 

[Irish#1]

Everyone's question on how parents don't see Urban line of BS. I was thinking about this last night. Obviously, I'm not in any conversations, but it became clear to me why parents buy his hype. He probably finds out what the parents enjoy and find interesting outside of just football. Then he spends a lot of time with the parents discussing what they like and enjoy. Pretty typical of your normal salesman. Easier to sell if you have a common interest to go along with your product.