Northwestern football players win right to unionize

[Wild Bill]

Lots of good points across the board. This is why I love this board.

I don't understand how anyone can feel sorry for these guys. They are acting like spoiled babies. You want to get paid? You don't to go to college? Fine, you don't have to go to college. Some of these guys don't even understand how lucky they are to be part of something so great. No money can buy that opportunity if you ask me. It really sickens me.

Exactly. I wish someone would threaten me with a free Northwestern degree, room & board, football all day and college women all night.

 

[Cackalacky]

Lots of good points across the board. This is why I love this board.

I don't understand how anyone can feel sorry for these guys. They are acting like spoiled babies. You want to get paid? You don't to go to college? Fine, you don't have to go to college. Some of these guys don't even understand how lucky they are to be part of something so great. No money can buy that opportunity if you ask me. It really sickens me.

I am not advocating one way or the other just trying to add to the discussion but I do see that many student athletes spend much more time than regular students at the school. This, added to traveling (loss of class time) injuries (long term), one year scholarships, plus the ridiculous NCAA rules and the basic chokehold the NFL has with their 3-year rule is a fairly concise argument for having the ability to have representation at a minimum.

 

[connect the dots]

The real issue with this ruling is that it will force schools to decrease the number of sports they offer to students. Throw in Title 9 requirements and I can see most schools only having the major sports, along with a small amount of other sports teams. The ruling is the first step to paying college athletes and schools that struggle to turn a profit now off their sports programs will slowly die.
You bring us a very good point. Compensation for participating on revenue generating sports teams will affect a college's ability to field and support a variety of sports.
Hopefully as this case proceeds through the court systems, the ruling will be overturned. Otherwise, ametuer athletics as we now know will be a distant memory.

Curt Flood took his challenge of baseball's reserve clause all the way to the Supreme Court, and lost. But, Curt Flood's challenge changed the game for the players, and brought about free agency. This Northwestern players suit will change the game. We can only hope that the NCAA and the major universities in college sports, will show some creativity in addressing compensation for participants in revenue generating sports. Bowie Kuhn's argument that the reserve clause was good for the game of baseball did not, ultimately, stand. Rather than confrontation in an appeals court, the NCAA, the universities, and the student/athletes should work this thing out among themselves and seek a compromise solution. Addressing the issue of compensation, will benefit and advance college athletics. Addressing this problem as adversaries in a court room can only hurt college football.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I wholly agree that student athletes should have a voice. I don't see this as a situation where "voting with your feet" is a solution given that they are all going to be subject to a single governing body.

This is going to initiate an interesting dilemma for the NW football players when other sports teams attempt to join up. Either the football guys will accept them (and the additional costs to their university of added benefits for these other athletes) or reject them on the premise that football is special by virtue of its profitability and alienate public support. My guess is that they will try for a middle path under the argument that each sport should organize separately but that's going to ring hollow when football players use their additional leverage to secure benefits the other sports can't demand.

 

[aubeirish]

I am not advocating one way or the other just trying to add to the discussion but I do see that many student athletes spend much more time than regular students at the school. This, added to traveling (loss of class time) injuries (long term), one year scholarships, plus the ridiculous NCAA rules and the basic chokehold the NFL has with their 3-year rule is a fairly concise argument for having the ability to have representation at a minimum.

A few things here. As far as spending time at the school it really depends on how involved you are and what your major is. People spend countless hours doing other things then sports that enriches the university in many different ways. Granted these guys have to spend many hours with the team, but it is a choice you make. I think traveling for football is really not as bad as many other sports. You really only travel 6 times a year. They have access to tutors and everything they need to succeed academically. Some of the other sports have to take a bus everywhere, they play during the week and you don't hear them complaining about anything. Also, you frequently see student athletes take difficult majors in the other sports. In football, not so much.

As far as the 3 year rule is concerned. I think most NFL teams would not take an 18 years old for security concerns. You have to be physically and mentally peaked to be in the NFL. No college freshman is ready for that.

 

[Irish#1]

Interesting thought I am having here. Let's say guys are getting paid. How does it work? Everyone gets the same amount with 4 year contracts? Is it based on performance? You suck, you're gone.

No, if they are allowed to unionize, they will become employees of the school. With that, they can be terminated or laid off at anytime.

These kids will also find out that they will have to start filling out a tax return every year and their parents won't be able to claim them as an exemption.

This issues creeps into so many other aspects well beyond just a student getting paid for playing. I don't see this standing in the end.

 

[MPClinton22]

No, if they are allowed to unionize, they will become employees of the school. With that, they can be terminated or laid off at anytime.

These kids will also find out that they will have to start filling out a tax return every year and their parents won't be able to claim them as an exemption.

This issues creeps into so many other aspects well beyond just a student getting paid for playing. I don't see this standing in the end.

My thoughts exactly. I just really don't think these players understand what they are doing. It's certainly not as cut and dry as "first unionize, second get paid". This is going to impact them in such an all-encompassing way that they may end up screwing not only the whole system over, but themselves as well.

It just is sickening to see the entitlement though. Like someone else just said, they get the luxury of leaving college with no debt burdens. What's hilarious too is that it's Northwestern players that organized this whole thing. These guys are athletes at a place that (I would hope) actually educates their football players and provides them with an invaluable degree after 4 years. They're certainly not the go-to example of the "exploited" college athlete.

 

[Cackalacky]

A few things here. As far as spending time at the school it really depends on how involved you are and what your major is. People spend countless hours doing other things then sports that enriches the university in many different ways. Granted these guys have to spend many hours with the team, but it is a choice you make. I think traveling for football is really not as bad as many other sports. You really only travel 6 times a year. They have access to tutors and everything they need to succeed academically. Some of the other sports have to take a bus everywhere, they play during the week and you don't hear them complaining about anything. Also, you frequently see student athletes take difficult majors in the other sports. In football, not so much.

As far as the 3 year rule is concerned. I think most NFL teams would not take an 18 years old for security concerns. You have to be physically and mentally peaked to be in the NFL. No college freshman is ready for that.

That's just it though (and I am not disagreeing with you wholly), the NCAA specifies that the football scholarship is the most valuable, yet baseball and basketball (with partial scholarships) can have a kid away from class for up to 2 weeks (a significant disadvantage with or without tutors which would be even more time outside of class and sports related activities). Plus, the majority of academic only students do not spend over 100 hours per week devoted solely to school. At most the average student spends less than 60 hours per week (a typical full load+ the recommended 3 hrs studying per hour of class) in school related activities. Are there some that do more yes, but it is not a condition on their academic scholarships ( as long as they keep their grades up).

And as far as taxes go, right now scholarships are grants and not taxable. What would be taxable would be additional benefits that could be negotiated however they could just as easily be negotiated, with representation as part of the grant status. The NCAA could easily make a stipend part of the scholarship. There are numerous scenarios that the students could be paid without them being considered benefits (under the current tax code). It would take a change of law by Congress and enforcement by the IRS to change the current situation, so let's not get hung up on the taxable income issue. All that has been determined is that the players are essentially employees and deserve the right to representation, which at this point, they have none.

In the end I don't think it will end up as we are talking like it will, but the system will fundamentally change, hopefully so that the NFL will have to pony up for its own minor league so an 18 year old can earn a paycheck with a club while growing up and not have to go fake an academic career in order to get to the NFL.

 

[Cackalacky]

I wholly agree that student athletes should have a voice. I don't see this as a situation where "voting with your feet" is a solution given that they are all going to be subject to a single governing body.

This is going to initiate an interesting dilemma for the NW football players when other sports teams attempt to join up. Either the football guys will accept them (and the additional costs to their university of added benefits for these other athletes) or reject them on the premise that football is special by virtue of its profitability and alienate public support. My guess is that they will try for a middle path under the argument that each sport should organize separately but that's going to ring hollow when football players use their additional leverage to secure benefits the other sports can't demand.

Looking at professional sports, basketball and baseball player unions have much more power than NFL player's union does. I don't claim to know how or why, but the NFL's union is relatively weak.

The system the way it is set up now favors football development through the college ranks. The NCAA aids it by their rules and the NFL aids it by their rules. I don't think that the lawsuit was even about being paid, but the determination that the student athletes are already paid wages via grants and that they have the right to organize for representation, which they are currently being denied. Everyone speculating about the implications are just that, speculation.

(I am quoting this post for reference, not as a direct response to you Pops.)

 

[WaveDomer]

Everyone pays for a college education. If you are a normal student, either you pay tuition, a parent pays tuition, a guardian pays tuition, etc. Someone had/has to work in order to get that tuition money. If you are on scholarship, your "work" means doing what is expected of you through that scholarship: football, basketball, piano, maintaining a GPA, whatever. So everyone is working to pay for school in some way. I know playing sports at big time schools and balancing class is hard, but so is law school if you work nights and have a kid.

If you are going to the League, then you are getting the best training available. It's like me wanting to direct movies and getting an internship with Tarantino. Am I going to complain about not getting paid? And if you aren't going to the League, you get the education.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Food for thought here.

The players at NW basically are getting paid $63K per year (Tuition, fees, books, room and board). Let's assume for a moment that they spend, on average, 40 hours per week towards football (ignoring the fact that 20 hours is the rule). Over 52 weeks, that translates into roughly $30/hr and that is ignoring the fact that they do not have to worry about accumulating debt, have access to training staff that others do not, tutors and world class facilities. According to the BLS, the average wage rate in Chicago is $24. The $30/hr puts them in the same ballpark as real estate / property managers as well as pre-school administers.

 

[Cackalacky]

Food for thought here.

The players at NW basically are getting paid $63K per year (Tuition, fees, books, room and board). Let's assume for a moment that they spend, on average, 40 hours per week towards football (ignoring the fact that 20 hours is the rule). Over 52 weeks, that translates into roughly $30/hr and that is ignoring the fact that they do not have to worry about accumulating debt, have access to training staff that others do not, tutors and world class facilities. According to the BLS, the average wage rate in Chicago is $24. The $30/hr puts them in the same ballpark as real estate / property managers as well as pre-school administers.

Does this include their class load? How about a person on academic scholarship? If they want to earn a CPA degree, should the person on academic scholarship be forced to spend 40+ hours per week volunteering, working, or playing intramural sports as a condition of their academic scholarship?

 

[Ndaccountant]

Looking at professional sports, basketball and baseball player unions have much more power than NFL player's union does. I don't claim to know how or why, but the NFL's union is relatively weak.

The system the way it is set up now favors football development through the college ranks. The NCAA aids it by their rules and the NFL aids it by their rules. I don't think that the lawsuit was even about being paid, but the determination that the student athletes are already paid wages via grants and that they have the right to organize for representation, which they are currently being denied. Everyone speculating about the implications are just that, speculation.

(I am quoting this post for reference, not as a direct response to you Pops.)

"Huma said CAPA's goals are the same as those of the NCPA. The group has pressed for better concussion and other medical protections, and for scholarships to cover the full cost of attendance.

Having already successfully advocated for the creation of multiyear scholarships, it now would like those scholarships to be guaranteed even if a player is no longer able to continue for injury or medical reasons. The group has also called for a trust fund that players could tap into after their NCAA eligibility expires to finish schooling or be rewarded for finishing schooling.

CAPA's initial goals do not include a call for schools to pay salaries, Huma said. However, he declined to rule out the possibility that CAPA would seek that type of compensation in the future and said he knows the public will begin speculating about scenarios in which players would receive a cut of the $5.15 billion in revenues currently generated by athletic departments in the five power conferences. "


Outside The Lines -- Northwestern Wildcats football players trying to join labor union - ESPN
I don't think anyone would argue against safety or guaranteed scholarships. "Full cost of attendance" and a trust fund to reward for finishing school seems like a form of additional payments to me.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

This is an all around shit situation.

Lots of mula flying around and some players are smart enough to try and get a piece of the pie.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Does this include their class load? How about a person on academic scholarship? If they want to earn a CPA degree, should the person on academic scholarship be forced to spend 40+ hours per week volunteering, working, or playing intramural sports as a condition of their academic scholarship?

Let me put it to you this way. If I wanted to go to Northwestern, without a scholarship, and graduate debt free after 4 years, I would have to work a lot more than 40 hrs per week outside my class load.

 

[ACamp1900]

Did anyone see their new facilities?? They are not dropping football.

 

[Cackalacky]

"Huma said CAPA's goals are the same as those of the NCPA. The group has pressed for better concussion and other medical protections, and for scholarships to cover the full cost of attendance.

Having already successfully advocated for the creation of multiyear scholarships, it now would like those scholarships to be guaranteed even if a player is no longer able to continue for injury or medical reasons. The group has also called for a trust fund that players could tap into after their NCAA eligibility expires to finish schooling or be rewarded for finishing schooling.

CAPA's initial goals do not include a call for schools to pay salaries, Huma said. However, he declined to rule out the possibility that CAPA would seek that type of compensation in the future and said he knows the public will begin speculating about scenarios in which players would receive a cut of the $5.15 billion in revenues currently generated by athletic departments in the five power conferences. "


Outside The Lines -- Northwestern Wildcats football players trying to join labor union - ESPN
I don't think anyone would argue against safety or guaranteed scholarships. "Full cost of attendance" and a trust fund to reward for finishing school seems like a form of additional payments to me.

Depends on the definition of "payments." It could be negotiated that the items you reference be included as part of the grant they receive. And you bring up a very good point, .....to what extent are the school's liable for the end result of the student athlete? What recourse does a student athlete have if they are injured severely or are unable to finish the degree program because their scholarship is not renewed? Is there any responsibility to be shared between the parties and how does the current arrangement not reek of almost totally benefiting the school and NFL?

 

[Cackalacky]

Let me put it to you this way. If I wanted to go to Northwestern, without a scholarship, and graduate debt free after 4 years, I would have to work a lot more than 40 hrs per week outside my class load.

My example was for an academic scholarship (full ride since I did not explicitly say). The only thing you have to do (typically) is make your grades. Should you be forced to do some other task you may not want to do in order to maintain the scholarship and if you don't the scholarship can be rescinded. Oh, and the school gets to keep the rewards of your extra 40+ hours of time as well as profit from your likeness and deeds while denying you the same right.

 

[Wild Bill]

Does this include their class load? How about a person on academic scholarship? If they want to earn a CPA degree, should the person on academic scholarship be forced to spend 40+ hours per week volunteering, working, or playing intramural sports as a condition of their academic scholarship?

Let me put it to you this way. If I wanted to go to Northwestern, without a scholarship, and graduate debt free after 4 years, I would have to work a lot more than 40 hrs per week outside my class load.

The extra work and time players are putting into their sport will pay dividends after they graduate, whether they go to the NFL or enter the workforce. I'm not suggesting a NW grad will have trouble finding a job, but a NW football alum will never have to look for a job. They will be served to him on a platter and he'll enjoy job security for life. That counts for something, right?

The experience a player gets at playing/studying at an institution like NW is invaluable too. If my son was fortunate enough to be on their current roster, I'd suggest that he enjoys his time as a student and that he be grateful for the opportunity. I realize it's a bullshit argument, but playing for Northwestern is a privilege. I'd trade you 10 years of my life with a smile on my face to strap it up for ND for four years.

 

[Cackalacky]

The extra work and time players are putting into their sport will pay dividends after they graduate, whether they go to the NFL or enter the workforce. I'm not suggesting a NW grad will have trouble finding a job, but a NW football alum will never have to look for a job. They will be served to him on a platter and he'll enjoy job security for life. That counts for something, right?

The experience a player gets at playing/studying at an institution like NW is invaluable too. If my son was fortunate enough to be on their current roster, I'd suggest that he enjoys his time as a student and that he be grateful for the opportunity. I realize it's a bullshit argument, but playing for Northwestern is a privilege. I'd trade you 10 years of my life with a smile on my face to strap it up for ND for four years.

I agree that I personally would very much love too have my ass handed to me daily for an ND scholarship, but not all schools are ND or NW. Some people want to play football and not be bothered by "skool". ND and NW are routinely hamstrung by the current system due to their academic restrictions. Someone used UNC as an example earlier. They have a farce of a academic program for their athletes and it is a damn shame.

Please keep in mind I worked a full time job while taking a full engineering course load and managed to be a half-way decent husband and dad for 5 years. I know what hard work is and what it takes.

 

[koonja]

I don't know how this will ever happen, but it would maybe sink in how much they already have if a semi-popular/popular student athlete was dropped from scholarship (aka, school didn't renew his 1-year contract) because he complained how he wasn't getting enough or how the NCAA/school was unfair to him.

"Welcome to student debt, kiddo. Welcome to reality".

 

[aubeirish]

In the end I don't think it will end up as we are talking like it will, but the system will fundamentally change, hopefully so that the NFL will have to pony up for its own minor league so an 18 year old can earn a paycheck with a club while growing up and not have to go fake an academic career in order to get to the NFL.

I think it's a legit solution. I also think that if these leagues do happen you are going to see a lot of guys regretting not going to college. By that I mean the 95% (if it's anything like junior hockey) of the guys that won't make it to the league. That fake paper is better than no paper at all. Add that with the possible connections that you can make at college even though you did not study hard.
Personally, I would not watch a junior football league. If I want to watch guys play for money, I watch the NFL. The thing that is special about college football for me are the rivalries, the bands, the pageantry, and the incredible pride that people have towards their school. There is just nothing like it.

 

[Cackalacky]

I think it's a legit solution. I also think that if these leagues do happen you are going to see a lot of guys regretting not going to college. By that I mean the 95% (if it's anything like junior hockey) of the guys that won't make it to the league. That fake paper is better than no paper at all. Add that with the possible connections that you can make at college even though you did not study hard.
Personally, I would not watch a junior football league. If I want to watch guys play for money, I watch the NFL. The thing that is special about college football for me are the rivalries, the bands, the pageantry, and the incredible pride that people have towards their school. There is just nothing like it.

To the first bolded I totally agree. I want everyone to have an education, but you can't make the horse drink either.

To the second bolded, I personally watch all kinds of amateur levels. Hell I even watch women's soccer and basketball. I also routinely watch and support my local minor league baseball team, hockey team and a soccer. I would do it if a junior or minor league football team existed.

I still also watch and support my college teams in those same sports.

 

[aubeirish]

To the first bolded I totally agree. I want everyone to have an education, but you can't make the horse drink either.

That is for sure. Junior Football would be an ideal solution for these guys if done right.

Please keep in mind I worked a full time job while taking a full engineering course load and managed to be a half-way decent husband and dad for 5 years. I know what hard work is and what it takes.

Kudos. Similar situation for me without the husband and dad part(probably the hardest). That is very admirable man. That is what I think about when I think of sacrifices. I thought I worked hard when I played hockey, I had no idea what hard work was lol.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

I think it's a legit solution. I also think that if these leagues do happen you are going to see a lot of guys regretting not going to college. By that I mean the 95% (if it's anything like junior hockey) of the guys that won't make it to the league. That fake paper is better than no paper at all. Add that with the possible connections that you can make at college even though you did not study hard.
Personally, I would not watch a junior football league. If I want to watch guys play for money, I watch the NFL. The thing that is special about college football for me are the rivalries, the bands, the pageantry, and the incredible pride that people have towards their school. There is just nothing like it.

This, to me, is the problem. People get so caught up in the emotional aspects of CFB that they ignore the vast sums of money flying around.

Look at the classroom and money scandals over the past decade and then look at the teams playing in BCS bowls...

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I think it's a legit solution. I also think that if these leagues do happen you are going to see a lot of guys regretting not going to college. By that I mean the 95% (if it's anything like junior hockey) of the guys that won't make it to the league. That fake paper is better than no paper at all. Add that with the possible connections that you can make at college even though you did not study hard.
Personally, I would not watch a junior football league. If I want to watch guys play for money, I watch the NFL. The thing that is special about college football for me are the rivalries, the bands, the pageantry, and the incredible pride that people have towards their school. There is just nothing like it.

Interestingly, Mark Cuban thinks the NBADL should move in the direction of being a non-college option for kids who want to be full time in basketball. If that happens, football would be the lone outlier. My earnest hope is that somebody sees fit to launch minor league football. I'm not holding my breath, however.

 

[GoIrish41]

Part of going through college is the struggle and the grind. Is that harder for football players than, say, people in the marching band or in student government? Perhaps, but nobody is offering the class treasurer a full ride and national exposure to his talent. These guys need to realize the kind of opportunities they have and stop bitching. Paying players will ruin college football.

 

[aubeirish]

This, to me, is the problem. People get so caught up in the emotional aspects of CFB that they ignore the vast sums of money flying around.

Look at the classroom and money scandals over the past decade and then look at the teams playing in BCS bowls...

Obviously, this is a sad affair. The NCAA should be the ones that put foot down and hammer with sanctions the cheaters, but it's most probably a very corrupted institution. The mantra of the existence of such an organisation should be the well being of the student-athletes and the schools it represents in absolute integrity. That is utopia though. The world is not such.

I was more talking about stuff related to the actual game.

 

[BGIF]

Part of going through college is the struggle and the grind. Is that harder for football players than, say, people in the marching band or in student government? Perhaps, but nobody is offering the class treasurer a full ride and national exposure to his talent. These guys need to realize the kind of opportunities they have and stop bitching. Paying players will ruin college football.

Did hell really just freeze over?

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

Obviously, this is a sad affair. The NCAA should be the ones that put foot down and hammer with sanctions the cheaters, but it's most probably a very corrupted institution. The mantra of the existence of such an organisation should be the well being of the student-athletes and the schools it represents in absolute integrity. That is utopia though. The world is not such.

I was more talking about stuff related to the actual game.

The talent level will drop in "Big Time CFB" if players are given a way to get trained for the NFL without having to go to school. I think the CFB experience will remain (bands, rivalries etc) but just on a much smaller scale.


Not directed at you Aubs, I just don't understand the whole "paying players will ruin CFB"... since CFB has already been ruined by money.