Clearer focus on the gun issue.

Emcee77

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This is more of a Constitutional Law issue, but there would be much less pushback on gun control if it were done at the state and local level (I believe someone mentioned Wyatt Earp). Federal gun control is a bigger issue because the Constitutional authority behind it is sketchy at best. Make the decisions at the state and local level rather than apply a one-size-fits-all approach to the entire country. You gun control guys can all go live in Chicago and New York where the rules are strict and only the lawbreakers have guns.

I highly doubt it. Maybe you don't have a problem with state and local gun regulations, but the Supreme Court does, and the gun rights activists who challenge the gun regulations in Chicago and New York certainly do. The issue in gun regulations hasn't been federalism since the United States v. Lopez decision in 1995. It's the Second Amendment.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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HEAR! HEAR!

Me too. What I wanted was to talk about what could be done to discriminate more carefully etching a divider between those that were going to break the law, and those that were going to protect themselves and their loved ones first.

My preambles and my re-ambles were all about guiding the conversation.

I mentioned this case because I thought it was a pretty clear case of a defendant claiming to be protecting himself when there is no evidence that there was a gun, or anything other than a big mouth aimed in his direction. I bet a dime to a dollar you and I [both individually and if together] in that situation would have been able to retreat successfully without shots being fired. And remember the girlfriend who was in the store at the time buying wine never saw a gun, or heard him even mention anything to the affect that their may have been a gun present. Nor does any other witness claim that. I am taking this case as a perfect example of an unjustified shooting by someone that shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun.

I have a cousin that was part of a two man crew during the Toledo riots of the '60's tens of blocks burned. The scope of the destruction was so bad that everything was razed, and never rebuilt. In the midst of this when a squad car was surrounded or overturned, my cousin and his partner would go in. They truly were Irish whales. With kid leather gloves, saps, and blackjacks, they walked into mobs, to relieve their brothers. Being younger, I heard stories about their exploits.

In fact, I had a girl that I wanted to date in high school, several years later, and her father was one of the cops my cousin rescued. I was in like Flint, man! The girls dad told me that they came through the crowds and they parted like the red sea. Someone didn't get out of the way quick enough, they were physically launched. When my cousin and I were talking of this years later, I asked him how many shots he had to fire. He said none.

And this follows my experience after being under fire, sometimes you have an idea where it is coming from, and sometimes you don't. You rarely see it. But you are right BGIF, blowing off all of your ammunition isn't a good thing, not at all.

My preconceived thinking is that anyone who responds to another, without any physical evidence of the other attempting grievous harm, by discharged a weapon precipitously, is one of those I want to see the right to conceal and carry taken away from.

So then, without debating details of a case we may never know, and without arguing over an interpretation of the constitution, how can we set up a system that keeps citizens safe and does not interfere with our rights?
 

Grahambo

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I think your comments are largely based on ignorance. I'm not saying "you're ignorant" but I think there are facts of which you may not be aware. The worst attacks and mass murders in US history are not committed with "military grade weapons," they're committed with 9mm (Virginia Tech), homemade bombs (Bath, MI), airplanes (9/11), kitchen supplies (Boston Marathon), and hunting rifles (Sandy Hook). Please don't say the word "assault rifle" because you'll just prove you don't know anything about firearms. The Bushmaster used at Sandy Hook is a prime target for gun control people because it LOOKS like a military-style M16 or AK-47, though it functions like neither. The term "assault rifle" is nothing more than a political football that has no actual definition within the world of firearms.


I honestly don't think you know what military-grade weapons are.


Guess how many times anyone has ever "taken out two dozen other people in the process." In all of US history, it's happened twice. Two times. In over 86,000 days.

Assault rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Examples of assault rifles include the StG 44, AK-47, M16 rifle, INSAS rifle,QBZ-95, FAMAS, Heckler & Koch G36, and Enfield SA80.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean (those are also military grade weapons)...
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Assault rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean...

I think wizard's point is that, according to the first sentence of that wikipedia article, the general public doesn't have access to "assault rifles"; burst-fire and fully-automatic weapons are illegal. When such a rifle is limited to a semi-automatic mode of fire, as all commercially available versions are, it's no longer an assault rifle, regardless of what it looks like.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I think your comments are largely based on ignorance. I'm not saying "you're ignorant" but I think there are facts of which you may not be aware. The worst attacks and mass murders in US history are not committed with "military grade weapons," they're committed with 9mm (Virginia Tech), homemade bombs (Bath, MI), airplanes (9/11), kitchen supplies (Boston Marathon), and hunting rifles (Sandy Hook). Please don't say the word "assault rifle" because you'll just prove you don't know anything about firearms. The Bushmaster used at Sandy Hook is a prime target for gun control people because it LOOKS like a military-style M16 or AK-47, though it functions like neither. The term "assault rifle" is nothing more than a political football that has no actual definition within the world of firearms.


I honestly don't think you know what military-grade weapons are.


Guess how many times anyone has ever "taken out two dozen other people in the process." In all of US history, it's happened twice. Two times. In over 86,000 days.

Sandy hook was a bushmaster. I have forgotten and repressed tons of what I know about weapons. But a .223 Bushmaster is the same design as an AR-15, is the same basic design as the M-16. So it is not correct to categorize Sandy Hook as a done with a hunting rifle.

I think wizard's point is that, according to the first sentence of that wikipedia article, the general public doesn't have access to "assault rifles"; burst-fire and fully-automatic weapons are illegal. When such a rifle is limited to a semi-automatic mode of fire, as all commercially available versions are, it's no longer an assault rifle, regardless of what it looks like.

I agree with you Whiskey. But the distinction for me is the hyper-round, and mass fragmentation of the round, not the rate of fire. Anyone who has seen the results of any of these high velocity weapons, knows.

Even a hunting rifle will produce a through and through wound. A Bushmaster, AR-15, M-16 won't.

But that isn't the whole point. How do you stop any of them from being pointed at kids and doing what they did at Sandy Hook. There are groups that have sued to release crime scene photo's from Sandy Hook so the public could see . . .
 
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Grahambo

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I think wizard's point is that, according to the first sentence of that wikipedia article, the general public doesn't have access to "assault rifles"; burst-fire and fully-automatic weapons are illegal. When such a rifle is limited to a semi-automatic mode of fire, as all commercially available versions are, it's no longer an assault rifle, regardless of what it looks like.

Makes sense and what I kinda thought which is why I left the backdoor open for my escape from the thread.
 

Wild Bill

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This is more of a Constitutional Law issue, but there would be much less pushback on gun control if it were done at the state and local level (I believe someone mentioned Wyatt Earp). Federal gun control is a bigger issue because the Constitutional authority behind it is sketchy at best. Make the decisions at the state and local level rather than apply a one-size-fits-all approach to the entire country. You gun control guys can all go live in Chicago and New York where the rules are strict and only the lawbreakers have guns.

I don't know, lately the anti-gun crowd has lost some momentum and conceal/carry is actually being discussed. Don't get me wrong, this city is far from pro-gun but things, at least IMO, are trending towards less restriction.

Probably has something to do with a string of violence and crimes committed in the Gold Coast, River North and Old Town neighborhoods (historically wealthy areas of the city). It gets real fun in the summer when we get hit with "flash mobs". The criminals finally figured it out - they can rob the rich with relatively ease, nobody is armed.
 

Emcee77

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I don't know, lately the anti-gun crowd has lost some momentum and conceal/carry is actually being discussed. Don't get me wrong, this city is far from pro-gun but things, at least IMO, are trending towards less restriction.

Probably has something to do with a string of violence and crimes committed in the Gold Coast, River North and Old Town neighborhoods (historically wealthy areas of the city). It gets real fun in the summer when we get hit with "flash mobs". The criminals finally figured it out - they can rob the rich with relatively ease, nobody is armed.

See my above post on this ... it's because the Illinois law that prohibited concealed carry was declared unconstitutional by a federal appellate court, and the legislature had to amend the law.
 
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Cackalacky

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This is more of a Constitutional Law issue, but there would be much less pushback on gun control if it were done at the state and local level (I believe someone mentioned Wyatt Earp). Federal gun control is a bigger issue because the Constitutional authority behind it is sketchy at best. Make the decisions at the state and local level rather than apply a one-size-fits-all approach to the entire country. You gun control guys can all go live in Chicago and New York where the rules are strict and only the lawbreakers have guns.

So South Carolina should decide what type of guns I get? Sign me up. I will have an RPG mounted to my F-150 in no time.
 

Bubbles

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Sandy hook was a bushmaster. I have forgotten and repressed tons of what I know about weapons. But a .223 Bushmaster is the same design as an AR-15, is the same basic design as the M-16. So it is not correct to categorize Sandy Hook as a done with a hunting rifle.



I agree with you Whiskey. But the distinction for me is the hyper-round, and mass fragmentation of the round, not the rate of fire. Anyone who has seen the results of any of these high velocity weapons, knows.

Even a hunting rifle will produce a through and through wound. A Bushmaster, AR-15, M-16 won't.

But that isn't the whole point. How do you stop any of them from being pointed at kids and doing what they did at Sandy Hook. There are groups that have sued to release crime scene photo's from Sandy Hook so the public could see . . .

Source? What about penetration through walls in terms of home defense. I would think that would just as valid a conversation.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I agree with you Whiskey. But the distinction for me is the hyper-round, and mass fragmentation of the round, not the rate of fire. Anyone who has seen the results of any of these high velocity weapons, knows.

Even a hunting rifle will produce a through and through wound. A Bushmaster, AR-15, M-16 won't.

I'm not an expert by any means, but my understanding is that any proper rifle-- hunting, assault, battle, etc.-- will fire its rounds with enough velocity to cause spalling and fragmentation, which produces very large wound channels compared to a pistol round, which cannot achieve the velocity necessary to fragment. In other words, I don't believe there's any difference in terminal ballistics between hunting rifles and assault rifles of similar caliber. Thus the frustration when American media personalities sensationalize a mass-shooting story by using terms like "assault rifle" or "high-powered rifle"; the former is almost always used incorrectly, and the latter is completely redundant. Rifles are, by design, "high-powered".

But that isn't the whole point. How do you stop any of them from being pointed at kids and doing what they did at Sandy Hook. There are groups that have sued to release crime scene photo's from Sandy Hook so the public could see . . .

That's the real question. Do we ban ARs? Well, if my above contention is correct in that there's no real difference in terminal ballistic performance between hunting and "assault" rifles of similar calibers, then there's no real benefit in doing so. Do we limit magazine capacity? Maybe. But where do we set it? 20? 15? 10? Does that really improve the safety of the public when there's no limit on the amount of magazines an individual can own, and with a little practice reloading can be done in just a couple seconds? So what do we try next? Ban all semi-autos? Only bolt-action rifles for civilians?

When you really start to parse the suggestions on the table, it becomes pretty clearly that the most popular supply-side regulations wouldn't make us any safer. In my humble opinion, the solutions lie on the consumer-side of the equation-- back-ground checks, waiting periods, licensing and training requirements, etc. And to be fair, the gun lobby and the NRA have opposed and defeated a lot of good common-sense regulations. Arizona recently got rid of its CC licensing requirement, which strikes me as of questionable wisdom, but this is one of those hot-button emotional issues where virtually no one involved-- on the local or Federal level-- seems interested in maintaining objectivity in the interest of creating good policy for all.
 
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Bubbles

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I'm not an expert by any means, but my understanding is that any proper rifle-- hunting, assault, battle, etc.-- will fire its rounds with enough velocity to cause spalling and fragmentation, which produce much larger wound channels than even the highest caliber pistols. In other words, I don't believe there's any difference in terminal ballistics between hunting rifles and assault rifles.

.223 is .223 (et. al.). Doesn't matter if its a single shot bolt or an 'assault rifle'. All else being equal (round specs, barrel length, atmosphere, etc).....there is no difference, other than an emotional one.
 

BGIF

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I think your comments are largely based on ignorance. I'm not saying "you're ignorant" but I think there are facts of which you may not be aware. The worst attacks and mass murders in US history are not committed with "military grade weapons," they're committed with 9mm (Virginia Tech), homemade bombs (Bath, MI), airplanes (9/11), kitchen supplies (Boston Marathon), and hunting rifles (Sandy Hook). Please don't say the word "assault rifle" because you'll just prove you don't know anything about firearms. The Bushmaster used at Sandy Hook is a prime target for gun control people because it LOOKS like a military-style M16 or AK-47, though it functions like neither. The term "assault rifle" is nothing more than a political football that has no actual definition within the world of firearms.


I honestly don't think you know what military-grade weapons are.


Guess how many times anyone has ever "taken out two dozen other people in the process." In all of US history, it's happened twice. Two times. In over 86,000 days.


Throwing in the towel already with ad hominems. "I'm not saying "you're ignorant". Yes, you did.

And you are dishonest in the process. Or is it just severly reading impaired?

"Please don't say the word "assault rifle" ... I didn't. YOU DID.

Do a word search on the entire thread. I quoted Bogs O.P. verbatim where he used those words. And I took issue with that post of his, didn't I?

Save your sophomoric canned speech that you cut and pasted from the internet. I lived through the Newark riots and I'm a veteran of the U.S. Army. Have you ever seen what a shotgun does to a human body? I have. I was in the NRA before your father winked at your mother. At 20 while a college student, I did volunteer at St Michael's Hospital in Newark in the ghetto. I was working the first night of the riots. And you're going to tell me about the civilians caught in a fire fight.

As a soldier I had my own M-16 not some mail order variety knock off made to impress my neighbors. Once upon a time I knew how to make a customized conversion kit. It's not difficult. Fortunately I've forgotten or at least put it out of mind.

You purposely distorted another comment. "You can still hunt, still target shoot, still protect your home or business but without taking out two dozen other people in the process." I'm glad your keeping count. I find twice a tragedy. I find one shot bystander a tragedy. And I find the Bushmaster used in the North Hollywood Shootout a criminal. Yeah, bad boys had "hunting" rifles and they were hunting outgunned cops with weapons that shouldn't be in civilian hands.

You mention the VT, Sandy Hook, and other shootings but don't nary a word about the mentally unstable shooters. More canned rhetoric.

No, the bomb at the Marathon wasn't manufactured by a military contractor but it was an antipersonnel device and the intent of the user was to maim and kill and they did it chearp than buying a Claymore. The IED's in Iraq and Afghanistan aren't manufactured in a military contractor's plant either but you tell the thousands of maimed Wounded Warriors about your love of semantics and there wounds are lesser because they aren't "military grade".

I found Bogs argument flawed. Your approach is just despicable.

Kudos to Bogs and the others that did hold intelligent conservation whether they agreed or not.
 
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Cackalacky

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clapping.gif
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Throwing in the towel already with ad hominems. "I'm not saying "you're ignorant". Yes, you did.

And you are dishonest in the process. Or is it just severly reading impaired?

"Please don't say the word "assault rifle" ... I didn't. YOU DID.

Do a word search on the entire thread. I quoted Bogs O.P. verbatim where he used those words. And I took issue with that post of his, didn't I?

Save your sophomoric canned speech that you cut and pasted from the internet. I lived through the Newark riots and I'm a veteran of the U.S. Army. Have you ever seen what a shotgun does to a human body? I have. I was in the NRA before your father winked at your mother. At 20 while a college student, I did volunteer at St Michael's Hospital in Newark in the ghetto. I was working the first night of the riots. And you're going to tell me about the civilians caught in a fire fight.

As a soldier I had my own M-16 not some mail order variety knock off made to impress my neighbors. Once upon a time I knew how to make a customized conversion kit. It's not difficult. Fortunately I've forgotten or at least put it out of mind.

You purposely distorted another comment. "You can still hunt, still target shoot, still protect your home or business but without taking out two dozen other people in the process." I'm glad your keeping count. I find twice a tragedy. I find one shot bystander a tragedy. And I find the Bushmaster used in the North Hollywood Shootout a criminal. Yeah, bad boys had "hunting" rifles and they were hunting outgunned cops with weapons that shouldn't be in civilian hands.

You mention the VT, Sandy Hook, and other shootings but don't nary a word about the mentally unstable shooters. More canned rhetoric.

No, the bomb at the Marathon wasn't manufactured by a military contractor but it was an antipersonnel device and the intent of the user was to maim and kill and they did it chearp than buying a Claymore. The IED's in Iraq and Afghanistan aren't manufactured in a military contractor's plant either but you tell the thousands of maimed Wounded Warriors about your love of semantics and there wounds are lesser because they aren't "military grade".

I found Bogs argument flawed. Your approach is just despicable.

Kudos to Bogs and the others that did hold intelligent conservation whether they agreed or not.

What words?
 

wizards8507

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Throwing in the towel already with ad hominems. "I'm not saying "you're ignorant". Yes, you did.

And you are dishonest in the process. Or is it just severly reading impaired?

"Please don't say the word "assault rifle" ... I didn't. YOU DID.

Do a word search on the entire thread. I quoted Bogs O.P. verbatim where he used those words. And I took issue with that post of his, didn't I?

Save your sophomoric canned speech that you cut and pasted from the internet. I lived through the Newark riots and I'm a veteran of the U.S. Army. Have you ever seen what a shotgun does to a human body? I have. I was in the NRA before your father winked at your mother. At 20 while a college student, I did volunteer at St Michael's Hospital in Newark in the ghetto. I was working the first night of the riots. And you're going to tell me about the civilians caught in a fire fight.

As a soldier I had my own M-16 not some mail order variety knock off made to impress my neighbors. Once upon a time I knew how to make a customized conversion kit. It's not difficult. Fortunately I've forgotten or at least put it out of mind.

You purposely distorted another comment. "You can still hunt, still target shoot, still protect your home or business but without taking out two dozen other people in the process." I'm glad your keeping count. I find twice a tragedy. I find one shot bystander a tragedy. And I find the Bushmaster used in the North Hollywood Shootout a criminal. Yeah, bad boys had "hunting" rifles and they were hunting outgunned cops with weapons that shouldn't be in civilian hands.

You mention the VT, Sandy Hook, and other shootings but don't nary a word about the mentally unstable shooters. More canned rhetoric.

No, the bomb at the Marathon wasn't manufactured by a military contractor but it was an antipersonnel device and the intent of the user was to maim and kill and they did it chearp than buying a Claymore. The IED's in Iraq and Afghanistan aren't manufactured in a military contractor's plant either but you tell the thousands of maimed Wounded Warriors about your love of semantics and there wounds are lesser because they aren't "military grade".

I found Bogs argument flawed. Your approach is just despicable.

Kudos to Bogs and the others that did hold intelligent conservation whether they agreed or not.

Saying you made an argument out if ignorance is NOT the same as calling you ignorant. All it means is that you don't have all the facts so you're arguing based on incomplete information.

You keep harping on "Bushmaster" but what does that have to do with anything? Bushmaster is a name brand, not a type of firearm. I appreciate your point about "what a shotgun does to the human body," but I prefer my lawmaking to be based on logic, not emotion. Using that same logic, why can't we ask "have you ever seen what a car wreck does to the human body?" and ban cars? You're more likely to die from a car accident than a shooting.

I'd type more but I'm on my phone. Thank you for your service.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4
 
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Bogtrotter07

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"assault rifle"

Bogs wrote in part:

Quote:
I would like discussing the issue, in terms of, is it safe to put all powers of judge, jury, and executioner in one mans hands. I supposed we could discuss the theater shooting, taking of life amidst popcorn and text messages, but I thought this case would be better. It recreated some of the same situations present in the Martin-Zimmerman case, but was a little more cut and dried, in that there was no evidence if a physical assault requiring self defense. So there were none of the issues of obscured evidence.

My position is that we all have the right to defend ourselves. But that must be tempered with the technology of the day. As when the constitution was written, men rode horses and in wagons, the firearms were not capable of hitting anything at great distances, let alone with the accuracy, rate of fire, or killing capacity. Further, try concealing a Brown Bess, or even the flintlock or percussion cap pistol of the day. Because of these technical changes, we must make legal safeguards to insure the rights and liberties of other citizens, including those that carry and those that don't.

In this quote? Or, where?
 
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