BK: Field Turf is Coming

[dshans]

The thought of a field with "seams" is depressing.

The Field of Seams, starring Kevin Costner.

"If you sew it they will come."

 

[condoms SUCk]

I wonder what the schedule was that they were basing the comment on having only a week before Rice. It's possible they could add a second shift and basically work on it 24 hrs to finish sooner. Who knows what they have based it on though.

I'm a Project Manager in the IT realm not construction, but if you gave me a project like this with the described time constraints you better give me an extremely health sized budget for me to crash some of those activities on the critical bath, i.e having workers add a second shift.
There is no flexibility with the final end date, so you better make a decision soon. You can't just decide a month or so before you start construction to decide what you want to do. You have to procure resources, get budgets approved and assigned, get you materials orders, get the statement of work (SOW) agreed upon and approved by all parties,(that alone can take months on a project of this size and scope) So yeah , there's a sh!t ton of work to do before you even tear up the first blade of grass.
I will be willing to bet they have already made their decision and are working on some of the aforementioned tasks before making the announcement public.

 

[wizards8507]

I'm a Project Manager in the IT realm not construction, but if you gave me a project like this with the described time constraints you better give me an extremely health sized budget for me to crash some of those activities on the critical bath, i.e having workers add a second shift.
There is no flexibility with the final end date, so you better make a decision soon. You can't just decide a month or so before you start construction to decide what you want to do. You have to procure resources, get budgets approved and assigned, get you materials orders, get the statement of work (SOW) agreed upon and approved by all parties,(that alone can take months on a project of this size and scope) So yeah , there's a sh!t ton of work to do before you even tear up the first blade of grass.
I will be willing to bet they have already made their decision and are working on some of the aforementioned tasks before making the announcement public.

I don't think it'll be nearly as complicated as you make it seem. I work for in corporate finance and I definitely know what you're talking about when it comes to contracts for custom construction projects and IT work, but this isn't anything like that. FieldTurf sells literally one product: a 400ish by 200ish slab of artificial turf. There's very little customization involved. Now, you're absolutely right when it comes to the overall stadium renovation, but the playing surface itself is fairly vanilla and small potatoes.

 

[IrishLion]

I don't think it'll be nearly as complicated as you make it seem. I work for in corporate finance and I definitely know what you're talking about when it comes to contracts for custom construction projects and IT work, but this isn't anything like that. FieldTurf sells literally one product: a 400ish by 200ish slab of artificial turf. There's very little customization involved. Now, you're absolutely right when it comes to the overall stadium renovation, but the playing surface itself is fairly vanilla and small potatoes.

I disagree. The turf itself is predictable, but the customization is always different based on the space you're working with. ND stadium is different than a flat open lot, which is different than half of a practice facility, which is different than Texas A&M's field, which is different than Paul Brown Stadium, etc.

There are different dimensions/constraints when laying the foundation/drainage for the turf, as well as different challenges at each site to account for before the project can proceed. For example, how do they get their equipment inside the stadium? ND has a large tunnel, but maybe it's shorter than what they usually move equipment through. Or perhaps the space between the edge of the turf and the concrete barrier around the field is shorter than what they usually work with, so now they must plan for working from the seats/removing walls.

 

[wizards8507]

I disagree. The turf itself is predictable, but the customization is always different based on the space you're working with. ND stadium is different than a flat open lot, which is different than half of a practice facility, which is different than Texas A&M's field, which is different than Paul Brown Stadium, etc.

There are different dimensions/constraints when laying the foundation/drainage for the turf, as well as different challenges at each site to account for before the project can proceed. For example, how do they get their equipment inside the stadium? ND has a large tunnel, but maybe it's shorter than what they usually move equipment through. Or perhaps the space between the edge of the turf and the concrete barrier around the field is shorter than what they usually work with, so now they must plan for working from the seats/removing walls.

I didn't say zero customization. I said "very little." The gentleman was talking about IT projects and yes, compared to IT projects, the things you mentioned amount to "very little".

 

[NDBoiler]

I'm a Project Manager in the IT realm not construction, but if you gave me a project like this with the described time constraints you better give me an extremely health sized budget for me to crash some of those activities on the critical bath, i.e having workers add a second shift.
There is no flexibility with the final end date, so you better make a decision soon. You can't just decide a month or so before you start construction to decide what you want to do. You have to procure resources, get budgets approved and assigned, get you materials orders, get the statement of work (SOW) agreed upon and approved by all parties,(that alone can take months on a project of this size and scope) So yeah , there's a sh!t ton of work to do before you even tear up the first blade of grass.
I will be willing to bet they have already made their decision and are working on some of the aforementioned tasks before making the announcement public.

I don't think it'll be nearly as complicated as you make it seem. I work for in corporate finance and I definitely know what you're talking about when it comes to contracts for custom construction projects and IT work, but this isn't anything like that. FieldTurf sells literally one product: a 400ish by 200ish slab of artificial turf. There's very little customization involved. Now, you're absolutely right when it comes to the overall stadium renovation, but the playing surface itself is fairly vanilla and small potatoes.

Wizard is right in that it would not take too long to create and execute this contract. Most universities (surely one like ND does) have standard contracts (usually an AIA form) that they have for all of their construction projects. They would simply need to have drawings created (minimal needed given the scope of work), bid it out (or negotiate a stipulated amount with a selected contractor, i.e. Field Turf), and award a contract. That whole process could probably be done in about 5 or 6 weeks, even less time if they negotiate with a selected contractor. But that pre-construction process could all be done now or next month even, giving plenty of time to get materials before the May start date. They wouldnt even need the actual turf when they started the project, as there's probably 3 - 4 weeks of earthwork/subgrade prep for the new turf. Actually, I just looked at their website, and it shows about a 9 week schedule start to finish FieldTurf: FieldTurf Construction & Installation, so that would put completion in mid-July. Figure a couple weeks of weather/typical construction delays and you're at the end of July/early August. At a glance, IMO it's definitely doable based on these parameters.

 

[NDBoiler]

I disagree. The turf itself is predictable, but the customization is always different based on the space you're working with. ND stadium is different than a flat open lot, which is different than half of a practice facility, which is different than Texas A&M's field, which is different than Paul Brown Stadium, etc.

There are different dimensions/constraints when laying the foundation/drainage for the turf, as well as different challenges at each site to account for before the project can proceed. For example, how do they get their equipment inside the stadium? ND has a large tunnel, but maybe it's shorter than what they usually move equipment through. Or perhaps the space between the edge of the turf and the concrete barrier around the field is shorter than what they usually work with, so now they must plan for working from the seats/removing walls.

They should have no problem getting any equipment they need into the stadium through the north tunnel. That's part of the reason why it is designed that way.

 

[condoms SUCk]

I don't think it'll be nearly as complicated as you make it seem. I work for in corporate finance and I definitely know what you're talking about when it comes to contracts for custom construction projects and IT work, but this isn't anything like that. FieldTurf sells literally one product: a 400ish by 200ish slab of artificial turf. There's very little customization involved. Now, you're absolutely right when it comes to the overall stadium renovation, but the playing surface itself is fairly vanilla and small potatoes.

You're right when it comes to the customization of the turf that pretty straight forward, with that said there are some questions that need answered like can you use the current drainage system, if not, what modifications are needed. How/who will do that, field turf company, or will it need to be another vendor.
Some if this stuff is not complicated per se, it just takes time to hammer out with other parties , and the window to get this done is only so large, it's not like you can move the Rice game back a week.
That's my main point, you don't have a lot of time to play around with and when issues and delays come up, which they will, and have you worked in enough slack into the schedule still get this project done on time.
So I'm sure they have made their decision already and are working on the project plan.

 

[IrishLion]

They should have no problem getting any equipment they need into the stadium through the north tunnel. That's part of the reason why it is designed that way.

I have experience working in US Bank Arena in Cincinnati... I'll just say that I wish every venue had a main access tunnel as navigable as ND haha. Some venues are nightmares simply in terms of navigating large carts/vehicles/equipment.

 

[NDBoiler]

I have experience working in US Bank Arena in Cincinnati... I'll just say that I wish every venue had a main access tunnel as navigable as ND haha. Some venues are nightmares simply in terms of navigating large carts/vehicles/equipment.

I agree completely. I know they back semis into the tunnel up to a point on game days. Shoudn't be a problem to get a Lull, fork, or bobcat into the tunnel from there. Probably can get a tri-axle in too, which would be the key for the earthwork, otherwise they'd have to use smaller dumps to haulthe dirt out.

 

[chicago51]

What is so good about field turf?

I like grass.

Grass is good for blue collar tough teams. Not that ND does not get athletic players but the greatest show on turf doesn't seem to their image.

 

[Chamellion]

What is so good about field turf?

I like grass.

Grass is good for blue collar tough teams. Not that ND does not get athletic players but the greatest show on turf doesn't seem to their image.

Grass isn't good in Indiana. We had to replace the grass twice this year, which is extremely expensive. On top of that, it was of very poor quality, because once you replace it, there is rarely enough time for the grass to take root.

I know we've done it for a while, but we're moving towards a spread, especially with the QBs we have (mobile, dual threat QBs) and the quality of RB that we are starting to get. We just run a fundamentally different offence from the time of Lou and the past.

For example, Tommy Rees is #3 in passing yards in our history, behind JC and Quinn. However, he definitely isn't the #3 passer in our history. It's just a sign of the times, we get more yards now than we did in the past, and we need good quality turf (field or grass) for our athletes, and our current setup isn't doing it.

 

[ulukinatme]

What is so good about field turf?

I like grass.

Grass is good for blue collar tough teams. Not that ND does not get athletic players but the greatest show on turf doesn't seem to their image.

I would argue these days we're less blue collar, shove the ball down your throat, than we are finesse. We don't have real big, bruising backs anymore. Our defense, at least under Diaco, seemed to accent 4 quicker linebackers making plays taking a slower lineman out of the equation.

A better question is, why stick with grass? The negatives seem to outweigh the positives when it comes to "tradition." Artificial turfs are easier to maintain and cheaper. Not to mention they're much better in poor weather conditions. Our practice field is actually artificial.

If you look at the numbers, fewer and fewer teams are sticking with grass. Even two years ago the numbers were 65% to 35% in favor of artificial turf, and the number is skewed even further if you're talking schools that play in poor weather conditions (Big 12, old Big East, B1G, etc). Theres only two conferences that play predominently on grass still, and it's SEC territory and ACC, with 79% and 71% of their teams respectively using grass. Every other Div 1 conference has roughly 40% or less teams playing on grass. Basically, only conferences with decent cash and weather still use grass.

Check this out:
Is Natural Grass Dying in College Football? - Vanquish The Foe

 

[returnofthemack]

Grass isn't good in Indiana. We had to replace the grass twice this year, which is extremely expensive. On top of that, it was of very poor quality, because once you replace it, there is rarely enough time for the grass to take root.

I know we've done it for a while, but we're moving towards a spread, especially with the QBs we have (mobile, dual threat QBs) and the quality of RB that we are starting to get. We just run a fundamentally different offence from the time of Lou and the past.

For example, Tommy Rees is #3 in passing yards in our history, behind JC and Quinn. However, he definitely isn't the #3 passer in our history. It's just a sign of the times, we get more yards now than we did in the past, and we need good quality turf (field or grass) for our athletes, and our current setup isn't doing it.

BLASPHEMY!

 

[ulukinatme]

For example, Tommy Rees is #3 in passing yards in our history, behind JC and Quinn. However, he definitely isn't the #3 passer in our history.

Repent! When Reesus returns (Probably as a GA) he will smite thee.

 

[Crazy Balki]

They need 2 make a f'n decision already.

I disagree. Even though I'd like to know which direction they're going, they shouldn't start placing the grass/turf until the spring.

 

[DillonHall]

I disagree. Even though I'd like to know which direction they're going, they shouldn't start placing the grass/turf until the spring.

Yeah, there's no way in hell the stadium won't be ready for the start of the season

 

[Irish#1]

I've been running IT projects before Project Management became in vogue. I've also been involved in about a half dozen construction projects ranging form small to high rise. The only thing I will say about this is, that regardless of the size of the project, you better account for the "Gotchas". Those are the unforeseen problems that popup during the project that you have to account and adjust for. As simple as a project that some may think it is, I guarantee you that no matter how well planned, they will be there and will have an impact.

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

I've been running IT projects before Project Management became in vogue. I've also been involved in about a half dozen construction projects ranging form small to high rise. The only thing I will say about this is, that regardless of the size of the project, you better account for the "Gotchas". Those are the unforeseen problems that popup during the project that you have to account and adjust for. As simple as a project that some may think it is, I guarantee you that no matter how well planned, they will be there and will have an impact.

this OR hang our hats on the words of idiots like myself that have no idea what goes into one of these projects.. a horse a piece

 

[pumpdog20]

What is so good about field turf?

I like grass.

Grass is good for blue collar tough teams. Not that ND does not get athletic players but the greatest show on turf doesn't seem to their image.

These type of teams don't go open backfield at the goal line.

 

[ThePiombino]

What is so good about field turf?

I like grass.

Grass is good for blue collar tough teams. Not that ND does not get athletic players but the greatest show on turf doesn't seem to their image.

Silly C51! You're confusing us with Stanford.

 

[Monk]

This is just my opinion on the situation, but I am a Project Manager for a construction company in NY. There are many different factors to take into account when deciding the time frame of any project. With this project the first thing that has to be done is a study on the impact field turf will make on the stadium. Next a budget is done so Notre Dame will have an understanding about how much it will cost them. These items have most likely already been done years ago. When ND decides to go with field turf the next step is designing the turf specifically for ND stadium. This process should not take to long as only minor customizations will have to be done. Now ND may decide to bid the project out, but I would not be surprised if they have a couple of close relationships with a couple of contractors to expedite this process. All in all the contractor would need a couple of weeks to look over the plans and another couple of weeks to finalize the negotiations. In my experience the most time seems to be spent on contract approval and award of any project, but then again most of our work is from the government.

The construction portion of the project can pretty much take as long or short as the university wants it to take. If they want it done sooner, which is most likely, all you need to do is account for more people and more shifts. Put 3 shifts on to work 24 hours a day, which most likely you will have to pay a higher rate for the third shift, or work overtime with 2 shifts and shut down for a couple of hours. I have no doubt this project can be done by the end of July if a decision is made by the beginning of March.

Also ND may have given some preliminary plans to contractors before they make the decision on whether or not to use field turf. This would greatly reduce the amount of time to get the project started and contractors will do the leg work especially because ND is coming out with $400 million worth of future work.

 

[NCND]

I'm ready for the morning I come on here and someone has some twitter reports saying "confirmed" lol

 

[wizards8507]

This is just my opinion on the situation, but I am a Project Manager for a construction company in NY. There are many different factors to take into account when deciding the time frame of any project. With this project the first thing that has to be done is a study on the impact field turf will make on the stadium. Next a budget is done so Notre Dame will have an understanding about how much it will cost them. These items have most likely already been done years ago. When ND decides to go with field turf the next step is designing the turf specifically for ND stadium. This process should not take to long as only minor customizations will have to be done. Now ND may decide to bid the project out, but I would not be surprised if they have a couple of close relationships with a couple of contractors to expedite this process. All in all the contractor would need a couple of weeks to look over the plans and another couple of weeks to finalize the negotiations. In my experience the most time seems to be spent on contract approval and award of any project, but then again most of our work is from the government.

The construction portion of the project can pretty much take as long or short as the university wants it to take. If they want it done sooner, which is most likely, all you need to do is account for more people and more shifts. Put 3 shifts on to work 24 hours a day, which most likely you will have to pay a higher rate for the third shift, or work overtime with 2 shifts and shut down for a couple of hours. I have no doubt this project can be done by the end of July if a decision is made by the beginning of March.

Also ND may have given some preliminary plans to contractors before they make the decision on whether or not to use field turf. This would greatly reduce the amount of time to get the project started and contractors will do the leg work especially because ND is coming out with $400 million worth of future work.

Quoted for truth. The bolded is what people don't seem to realize. Notre Dame can't break ground until after commencement, but that doesn't mean the project timeline is on hold until then. The initial phases of, bidding, planning, budgeting, etc. are either complete or will be completed before they actually start BUILDING anything. The physical work that involves guys in hard hats and heavy machinery is the only thing that can't start until May.

 

[wizards8507]

I'm ready for the morning I come on here and someone has some twitter reports saying "confirmed" lol

It already has been, more or less.

Let's eliminate a hybrid field for a moment, because I don't think that would work for Notre Dame. That's what the Packers have. It involves a level of expense, systems that probably don't make sense for us. So you have synthetic and grass. If we were to stay with natural turf, real grass, we're going to go way down and rebuild the field. We're not going to take the top six inches off. We're going to go all the way down to the base, drainage, do a complete rebuild of the field. One of the reasons it's been so bad, we take off one layer of sod and put down another layer of sod. We haven't addressed the real issues we have to address.

What is the timetable for that? It is a big project. How would that work? How would that work with commencement? What is your confidence that the field will be what it needs to be? Versus the timetable of synthetic? From a financial perspective, it's a push. The cost of what we would be talking about with grass is probably going to be a comparable investment.

So all that is being developed now. We talked to all the providers of both systems. We have bids from them. We're working through the analysis. Sometime in the first quarter we have to make that decision and decide which trigger to pull.

By the beginning of next season we'll be either playing on a new grass field or new synthetic field. We'll pull this trigger in January, February, something. The key markers are spring game and commencement.

 

[Irish#1]

This is just my opinion on the situation, but I am a Project Manager for a construction company in NY. There are many different factors to take into account when deciding the time frame of any project. With this project the first thing that has to be done is a study on the impact field turf will make on the stadium. Next a budget is done so Notre Dame will have an understanding about how much it will cost them. These items have most likely already been done years ago. When ND decides to go with field turf the next step is designing the turf specifically for ND stadium. This process should not take to long as only minor customizations will have to be done. Now ND may decide to bid the project out, but I would not be surprised if they have a couple of close relationships with a couple of contractors to expedite this process. All in all the contractor would need a couple of weeks to look over the plans and another couple of weeks to finalize the negotiations. In my experience the most time seems to be spent on contract approval and award of any project, but then again most of our work is from the government.

The construction portion of the project can pretty much take as long or short as the university wants it to take. If they want it done sooner, which is most likely, all you need to do is account for more people and more shifts. Put 3 shifts on to work 24 hours a day, which most likely you will have to pay a higher rate for the third shift, or work overtime with 2 shifts and shut down for a couple of hours. I have no doubt this project can be done by the end of July if a decision is made by the beginning of March.

Also ND may have given some preliminary plans to contractors before they make the decision on whether or not to use field turf. This would greatly reduce the amount of time to get the project started and contractors will do the leg work especially because ND is coming out with $400 million worth of future work.

All solid and good points. I was just too tired last night and didn't want to go into great detail like you, IrishLion and Condomsucks did.

I would imagine that the company providing the turf can simply plug the measurements of the stadium into their program and calculate what is needed from that standpoint. I agree that piece wouldn't take long and has probably already been done for budgetary reasons. Does the company providing the turf have their own staff or do they contract out the labor? If they use their own crews that will help immensely. If not, then they will probably supply a PM to oversee the installation with the contractor. A lot of his time will then be spent answering questions and showing the crew how to do certain things. I would imagine that all of this is being taken into consideration.

 

[wizards8507]

All solid and good points. I was just too tired last night and didn't want to go into great detail like you, IrishLion and Condomsucks did.

I would imagine that the company providing the turf can simply plug the measurements of the stadium into their program and calculate what is needed from that standpoint. I agree that piece wouldn't take long and has probably already been done for budgetary reasons. Does the company providing the turf have their own staff or do they contract out the labor? If they use their own crews that will help immensely. If not, then they will probably supply a PM to oversee the installation with the contractor. A lot of his time will then be spent answering questions and showing the crew how to do certain things. I would imagine that all of this is being taken into consideration.

Yes, it has.

"We talked to all the providers of both systems. We have bids from them."
-JS

 

[Monk]

All solid and good points. I was just too tired last night and didn't want to go into great detail like you, IrishLion and Condomsucks did.

It's not very often a thread shifts toward my profession, so I took advantage.

I would imagine that the company providing the turf can simply plug the measurements of the stadium into their program and calculate what is needed from that standpoint. I agree that piece wouldn't take long and has probably already been done for budgetary reasons. Does the company providing the turf have their own staff or do they contract out the labor? If they use their own crews that will help immensely. If not, then they will probably supply a PM to oversee the installation with the contractor. A lot of his time will then be spent answering questions and showing the crew how to do certain things. I would imagine that all of this is being taken into consideration.

I believe they only sell the product and supply a field representative for training a quality control.

 

[NDdomer2]

the flip:
http://www.herloyalsons.com/blog/2014/02/12/checking-narrative-part-2-notre-dame-field-turf/

 

[koonja]

the flip:
http://www.herloyalsons.com/blog/2014/02/12/checking-narrative-part-2-notre-dame-field-turf/

I didn't read the article, but it's expected that offenses would do better on turf, no? Not to mention, our home games are on grass, whereas when we play on turf it's an away game.