ND Oversold on Kelly?

[BGIF]

ND's Experience With Former NFL Coaches

ND's Experience With Former NFL Coaches

Kuharich
Devine
Holtz
Weis


The successful ones at ND were successful at other major college programs before being promoted to ND.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Everyone's favorite coach. His amorphous nature makes it impossible to point out deficiencies, while simultaneously allowing a fanbase to project their most unrealistic expectations upon him.

Fire Kelly! Hire Various!

Just like the backup QB.

 

[ickythump1225]

No one has suggested that he should be immune from criticism. I've been a vocal critic of the offensive play calling this season.

But this board has been bombarded with posts questioning Kelly's bona fides ever since the season started. To take such an argument seriously, one has to consciously ignore (bordering on intellectual dishonesty) all the objective evidence that Kelly is among the best in the business. But Kelly, as the HC, gets blamed for lots of stuff that isn't his fault, just like Rees does as our QB; so I suppose that's not surprising.

But why keep bringing this sh!t up? Unless you honestly believe that Kelly is a fraud, and that ND has a realistic chance of hiring someone better, what does all this hand-wringing accomplish? Nothing.

It ultimately boils down to pessimistic as$holes taking an emotional dump on this message board simply to make themselves feel better at everyone else's expense. This kind of stuff isn't pleasant for Irish fans to read, and I'm tired of debunking the same irrational arguments day after day.

/thread

 

[ickythump1225]

That's what everyone was sayinig about this year....

And then Golson went and f**ked up..................

 

[gkIrish]

/thread

And then Golson went and f**ked up..................

I like how you posted after saying /thread

 

[ickythump1225]

Exactly.

If he leaves...he leaves. So what? Its not like ND will be hurting to find a replacement. I"m not saying that assuming we'll find better....but coaches leave and that's out of our control.

Yeah so what. We have such a great track record of coaching hires over the past two decades finding Brian's replacement will be easy. Hopefully they come with a decided schematic advantage pre-installed.

 

[ickythump1225]

I like how you posted after saying /thread

That's my style. I don't normally do the whole hokey "/thread" thing but that point was so good that I couldn't let it be forgotten.

 

[irishpat183]

I don't know why I keep opening this thread.

Because it's fun to debate/discuss.

Like everyone else.



And I'm sorry to the Kelly family (that appearently plagues these boards) for being too pessimissitic...But we suck this year. Hopefully, it turns around. But from what I've seen outta this team, I bet my prediction is A HELLUVA lot more realistic than your "well, if we just do this, this, and this, we could beat this team.....etc"

I'm not going on what we "can" do...because we haven't. I'm going on what myself and the rest of the nation is witnessing on TV.


Wanna shut me up? Go out and kick some ***. Otherwise, I'm gonna continue being pissed off that the university of Notre Dame, with all it's advantages, goes another year without a title.

 

[NDinFL]

Yes, becuase our play on the field is living up to all the *** kissing that some of you just can't stop doing no matter what reality slaps you with.

Guess what you do when the script changes? Make adjustments.

And if anything, after coming of a Nat title appearence, we should be doing a whole helluva lot better than we are.

So do the players just suck (as none of you admit) or is Kelly/coaching staff doing a poor job (that none of you admit)...

Which is it? Or did we just get lucky last year?

Pat, clearly by your posts, you want ND to be an Alabama/LSU football factory.

Sacrificing any kinds of morals just to win rings.

The thing of it is, that's what makes ND different than those guys, and I think you should take a step back and try to grasp that.

Rather than foam at the mouth for a Nick Saban type coach

 

[Cackalacky]

Because it's fun to debate/discuss.

Like everyone else.

Its not fun having to re-read the same points over and over again, then watch someone put a bit of insight into it and then the same old points be issued again in another way. I guess I am an internet rubbernecker .

 

[woolybug25]

Wanna shut me up? Go out and kick some ***. Otherwise, I'm gonna continue being pissed off that the university of Notre Dame, with all it's advantages, goes another year without a title.

I'm sure that the University of Notre Dame is very concerned about how to shut you up.

Tell me, smart guy... what advantages are you talking about?

I sure hope that these advantages overcome over-signing, jucos, low academic standards, fake majors, paying players and playing non BCS teams. Since those are all things other schools have as advantages that we certainly do not.

 

[woolybug25]

Pat, clearly by your posts, you want ND to be an Alabama/LSU football factory.

Sacrificing any kinds of morals just to win rings.

The thing of it is, that's what makes ND different than those guys, and I think you should take a step back and try to grasp that.

Rather than foam at the mouth for a Nick Saban type coach

EXACTLY!

Pat doesn't understand why the rest of us are drawn to this team and university (yes... it's not just a football team). He is a FOOTBAW!!! guy, not a ND guy. Plain and simple.

 

[Irish#1]

I don't think anyone is saying BK is BAD. I think they're saying he's "pretty good" or even "really good," just not "OMGWTFBBQ KNUTE LIVES!"

"I'm not a savior, Jesus Christ, Martin Luther King, or the Easter bunny. I'm a football coach, that's all. Just a football coach."

BK's problem is he got us to the NC too fast and now some have misguided expectations.

 

[koonja]

People keep trashing Saban, and I'm just wondering what he's done that's so bad? Is he breaking recruiting rules and not getting caught or what?

Also, how many JUCOs does Alabama even have that are contributing?

I don't know the answers to any of these questions.

 

[Irish#1]

EXACTLY!

Pat doesn't understand why the rest of us are drawn to this team and university (yes... it's not just a football team). He is a FOOTBAW!!! guy, not a ND guy. Plain and simple.

Bazinga! I'll rep you if I can figure out how to do it.

 

[irishpat183]

Pat, clearly by your posts, you want ND to be an Alabama/LSU football factory.

Sacrificing any kinds of morals just to win rings.

The thing of it is, that's what makes ND different than those guys, and I think you should take a step back and try to grasp that.

Rather than foam at the mouth for a Nick Saban type coach

EXACTLY!

Pat doesn't understand why the rest of us are drawn to this team and university (yes... it's not just a football team). He is a FOOTBAW!!! guy, not a ND guy. Plain and simple.

Just one....one title in my lifetime.

So wouldl you guys be ok with never winning again...just to be "good ND guys"? Laughable. Becuase there are guys that have played for this very team, that are NOT good ND guys. Guys that were on those great teams back in the day, that weren't ND guys.

And you care if i'm not a "ND GUY"? Yeah, I'm a fan and I love the Irish....but frankly, I don't give a **** if I don't fit in with ND MEN. You can have it.

I agree what makes ND great is the whole package...but if you want to be a top football program, you can't use the crutch that it's "more that football" as your pepetual excuse as to why you're not competing with the big boys. And we just don't anymore. Can't win big bowl games, can't win titles. That's what counts.

And I will be pissed off until we do.


That being said...See you guys at the ASU game if anyone is going...I'm buying if you guys find me. Go Irish!

 

[koonja]

So for those thinking Alabama is loaded with JUCOs and that's a big part of the reason they're so good, they only start one JUCO on either side of the ball (Deion Blue) according to this August 2013 depth chart:

College Player Database - Depth Chart

I would not consider that a huge advantage, it doesn't look like Saban is accepting as many JUCOs as we make it seem.

 

[woolybug25]

So for those thinking Alabama is loaded with JUCOs and that's a big part of the reason they're so good, they only start one JUCO on either side of the ball (Deion Blue) according to this August 2013 depth chart:

College Player Database - Depth Chart

I would not consider that a huge advantage, it doesn't look like Saban is accepting as many JUCOs as we make it seem.

They had 3 on the roster last year and between '07-'11 they signed 5. Did any of these guys graduate? That answer is no.

Which football teams sign the most JuCo transfers? | al.com

Bama clearly oversigns as well.

 

[NDinFL]

Just one....one title in my lifetime.

So wouldl you guys be ok with never winning again...just to be "good ND guys"? Laughable. Becuase there are guys that have played for this very team, that are NOT good ND guys. Guys that were on those great teams back in the day, that weren't ND guys.

And you care if i'm not a "ND GUY"? Yeah, I'm a fan and I love the Irish....but frankly, I don't give a **** if I don't fit in with ND MEN. You can have it.

I agree what makes ND great is the whole package...but if you want to be a top football program, you can't use the crutch that it's "more that football" as your pepetual excuse as to why you're not competing with the big boys. And we just don't anymore. Can't win big bowl games, can't win titles. That's what counts.

And I will be pissed off until we do.


That being said...See you guys at the ASU game if anyone is going...I'm buying if you guys find me. Go Irish!

You're just pissed off all the time, and you whine and b!tch, and p!ss and moan constantly....

But you call yourself a "realist" riiiiiiiiight.

It isn't about titles, or sacrificing being an "ND guy" to win rings.

It's about being able to compete for titles and do it the right way, not over signing, not separating the athletes from the regular students on campus, holding kids accountable for their actions (Golson).

It isn't a crutch, pat, and it's obvious, actually painfully obvious that you DON'T get that.

So go ahead and be pissed off, because honestly, what you post any more has little to no meaning to anyone here.

 

[woolybug25]

NDinFL said it all.

The only thing I can add to Pat is... well, would you not be angry if we were winning 11-13 games a year? My guess is that you would just be angry about something else. That's who you are.

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

Yes, becuase our play on the field is living up to all the *** kissing that some of you just can't stop doing no matter what reality slaps you with.

Guess what you do when the script changes? Make adjustments.

And if anything, after coming of a Nat title appearence, we should be doing a whole helluva lot better than we are.

So do the players just suck (as none of you admit) or is Kelly/coaching staff doing a poor job (that none of you admit)...

Which is it? Or did we just get lucky last year?

what adjustment is available to replace golson? there was no way for kelly to know gunner would transfer and golson would be suspended. not to mention. malik had mono when the season started. lack of depth is on kelly, but losing your top two would put any coach at any school with any quality depth in a tough spot. perspective.

i would like to think that golson would move the offense more easily and chew up more clock while forcing opponents to take more risks to catch up. possibly a pipe dream with the performance of the D so far, but having a multi-threat qb with the ability to avoid more 3 and outs wouldn't hurt. perspective.

i think everyone on this board admits kelly has made mistakes. but he had some bad luck this year, too. some times we need to balance the good and bad against each other instead of being narrow minded to the point where national championships are the only thing that matters. that's your running theme. championships or bust. have some...you guessed it, perspective.

patience is ok. we're coming off of the davies/willingham/weis eras. the program was in shambles. it takes some time to build it back up. last year included lots of luck and obviously set some peoples' expectations waaaaaaaay too high. apparently those expectations are the same despite losing the top half of our qb depth. i anticipated this kind of struggle when it was clear rees would lead the offense, but had hope that things would pan out better. perspective.

edit: why are the only explanations you mention either the players or coaches sucking? it seems like there's more to it than finding someone to blame.

 

[BGIF]

Some Perspective On Winning At ND.

Some Perspective On Winning At ND.

Someone mentioned 9 or 10 wins as a "Silver Bullet" or coaching measuring stick. Is that on a 12 game season or 12 plus a bowl game? There's a big difference ranging from .692 to .833.

9 wins on a 12 game basis is a .750 Winning Percentage
10 wins on a 12 game basis is a .833 Winning Percentage
9 wins on a 13 game basis is a .692 Winning Percentage
10 wins on a 13 game basis is a .769 Winning Percentage


ND's All-Time Winning Percentage is .733 (less than 9 wins on a 12 game basis, between 9 and 10 on a 13.)

Top ND Coaching Records
Rockne .888
Leahy .855
Parshegian .836
Layden .770
Devine .765
Holtz .764
Kelly .705

Keep in mind Rockne played frequent games with the likes of Lombard. ND hasn't played a FCS caliber opponent since the early years of Layden's Era. Rock only faces one bowl opponent, then the Administration prohibited bowl games as they were exhibitions at the time. Both Rockne and Leahy might have had a few more losses in top bowl foes but they may also have a few more wins. Everybody from Layden down could have two wins more per season if ND scheduled the likes of Savannah, The Citadel, and Georgia State.

And none of them throughout their ND career had to contend with the 85/25 Rule, NCAA Clearinghouse Requirements, current ND Admission and Academic Eligibility Requirements, du Lac and Res Life, nor the Internet, a 24/7 news cycle, tweets and instagrams, plus things like Title IX, FERPA, and videographers and scissor jacks among a few.


On the basis of 9 or 10 wins
Davie won 9 twice
Tyrone won 10 once
Weis won 10 once
Kelly won 12 once (never less than 8, one below that 9 threshold)


Kelly is the only coach to win 12 games since Holtz '89.

Kelly is the only ND coach to win 12 games in a regular season.

Kelly is the only coach to go Undefeated in a regular season since Holtz in '88. Ara did it in '73.

Leahy went Undefeated 6 times in a regular season (no bowl games).

Rockne did it 5 times (one bowl game)


Kelly is a long way from Rockne, Leahy, and Parshegian. But so were Layden, Devine, and Holtz.


Right now Kelly's walking with Layden, Devine, and Holtz which is head and shoulders above any coach in his second year or Coach Various.

 

[irishpat183]

You're just pissed off all the time, and you whine and b!tch, and p!ss and moan constantly....

But you call yourself a "realist" riiiiiiiiight.

It isn't about titles, or sacrificing being an "ND guy" to win rings.

It's about being able to compete for titles and do it the right way, not over signing, not separating the athletes from the regular students on campus, holding kids accountable for their actions (Golson).

It isn't a crutch, pat, and it's obvious, actually painfully obvious that you DON'T get that.

So go ahead and be pissed off, because honestly, what you post any more has little to no meaning to anyone here.

I'm glad you find "meaning" from any posters on a fanboard.

Again, I get it. I just don't care as much as I do about winning...at this point.

I used to. I used to think it was noble and we're doing things differently...ND has it's own set of misfits and problems.

Like everyother fanbase, we make excuses for them (well, she isn't telling the truth...or he did what the coaches asked him to do so we let him play after his 3rd offense....) When they are ALL THE SAME.

Just win, baby. IrishPat is done holding these young men to being "ND GUYS".

 

[koonja]

I don't understand people take shots at IrishPat's personality because he has a different perspective of where the program should be.

You guys are making it sound like he's a bad person, when in all reality you guys are taking shots at him, not the other way around. Seems like those people are the ones with the problems.

And I don't think it's right to assume someone's personality is exactly how they are on a message board with strangers. I'm way more polite on here than I am with my friends, simply because of how many sensitive posters there are on here. I'm literally night and day in real life.

FWIW, if I had to guess, I bet IrishPat is cooler in real life than 90% of the people on here, so I doubt his personality 'sucks'. I'd watch a ND game with him, no doubt. But like I said, it's hard to judge real life personality from a message board.

 

[irishpat183]

NDinFL said it all.

The only thing I can add to Pat is... well, would you not be angry if we were winning 11-13 games a year? My guess is that you would just be angry about something else. That's who you are.

BCS win or Championship.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

BK's problem is he got us to the NC too fast and now some have misguided expectations.

A very fine point.

 

[irishpat183]

I don't understand people take shots at IrishPat's personality because he has a different perspective of where the program should be.

You guys are making it sound like he's a bad person, when in all reality you guys are taking shots at him, not the other way around. Seems like those people are the ones with the problems.

And I don't think it's right to assume someone's personality is exactly how they are on a message board with strangers. I'm way more polite on here than I am with my friends, simply because of how many sensitive posters there are on here. I'm literally night and day in real life.

I never get offended by this site. People are passionate and I like that. Even if they disagree.


It's all good. Everyone wants the Irish to win.

 

[NDinFL]

I'm glad you find "meaning" from any posters on a fanboard.

Again, I get it. I just don't care as much as I do about winning...at this point.

I used to. I used to think it was noble and we're doing things differently...ND has it's own set of misfits and problems.

Like everyother fanbase, we make excuses for them (well, she isn't telling the truth...or he did what the coaches asked him to do so we let him play after his 3rd offense....) When they are ALL THE SAME.

Just win, baby. IrishPat is done holding these young men to being "ND GUYS".

Then go cheer for Ohio State or Alabama.

By "having no meaning" I meant that you constantly whine about the same thing in every. single. post. Therefore your point is watered down and overstated.

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

I don't understand people take shots at IrishPat's personality because he has a different perspective of where the program should be.

You guys are making it sound like he's a bad person, when in all reality you guys are taking shots at him, not the other way around. Seems like those people are the ones with the problems.

And I don't think it's right to assume someone's personality is exactly how they are on a message board with strangers. I'm way more polite on here than I am with my friends, simply because of how many sensitive posters there are on here. I'm literally night and day in real life.

those shots are based on how he represents himself on this site. they're not malicious, they're just calling him out on his unrelenting whining about wanting to be alabama.

 

[irishpat183]

Then go cheer for Ohio State or Alabama.

By "having no meaning" I meant that you constantly whine about the same thing in every. single. post. Therefore your point is watered down and overstated.

But I want to root for ND.


Are you now saying there are "rules" to being an ND fan? I'd love to hear them.