ND Oversold on Kelly?

[Folsteam_Ahead]

no program is safe from the ebb and flow of success in college football. we have different admissions standards that other top tier programs, and we suffer more frequently because of it. unreasonable expectations of 10 wins every single year is just unsustainable. how many teams have done that 5 years straight in BCS conferences? i'm guessing teams that oversign, have serious behavior issues off the field, and have been investigated for ncaa violations.

the key is patience during years in which the circumstances are stacked against you. we've had some setbacks that lowered our ceiling this year. kelly has raised the bottom line, but failed to achieve the "next man in" status we expected by now. i think a little more patience is warranted. he has made some mistakes and under performed in some areas, but the overall performance is positive. this perspective comes with reasonable expectations. i still want to die after every loss because i want that title so badly, but i get a grip by sunday.

edit: i want us to be competitive, even when we lose. there was a chance to win both games we lost this year. i put some value in that. there's a long way to go, however, this season. it'll be interesting to see if minds change in the next 4 weeks.

 

[BobD]

If it was just about winning at football games, I'd follow a different team and join their forum so I could be one of the smart members.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I feel this thread is summed up as follows.....

 

[woolybug25]

I would disagree, and don't question my fan hood simply because you disagree with my stance and view of the program. You don't "need" fans like me is as stupid a statement that anyone has ever made. If there wasn't a system of checks and balances or accountability, we would dive off into a socialist regime. Come at me with something better than that.

I don't think it is unrealistic to have those expectations. 9 wins plus is a standard at many programs, and when they fall below those expectations, coaches get run. The list of teams that have consistently achieved those levels of success is higher then you think. But, I guess I am not a "good fan" for having expectations of someone we pay millions of dollars and throw money at a sport that as of yet has not delivered on its goods.

Did you actually read the post from Pat before you started spouting off? You just said that 9 wins is a standard in most programs, but failed to mention that Pat said:

Being 10-2 with a bowl loss, to me, is not a good season.

That is asking for a lot more than you considered fair. Expecting that you compete for a title every single year for eternity is unreasonable in today's game. So crying like a little ____ every time we lose a game is idiotic. Oh... and I am talking about Pat, not you.

____________________________________________________

Secondly, I didn't say a d@mn word to you, so quit trying to put words in my mouth. Frankly, I don't even really follow you as a poster, so I have no idea what you think or feel about this team, nor do I care. So the tense you put your comment in was incorrect, as I never mentioned you at all.

Pat on the other hand, hasn't said a positive thing about anything since he's shown up. He's a miserable person lately that is making the board unbearable to read.

A couple losses and this board has turned into NDnation, complete with the mouth-foaming idiots overunning the roost. I come to this joint to not only shoot the $hit about all things ND, but also to BS with like minded friends. Right now, this board is nothing but negativity and knee-jerk reactions.

But it looks like we aren't winning a championship this year... so maybe we should all burn Kelly at the stake?

 

[koonja]

How many JUCO's does Alabama actually have on their roster?

 

[CarrollVermin]

Did you actually read the post from Pat before you started spouting off? You just said that 9 wins is a standard in most programs, but failed to mention that Pat said:



That is asking for a lot more than you considered fair. Expecting that you compete for a title every single year for eternity is unreasonable in today's game. So crying like a little ____ every time we lose a game is idiotic. Oh... and I am talking about Pat, not you.

____________________________________________________

Secondly, I didn't say a d@mn word to you, so quit trying to put words in my mouth. Frankly, I don't even really follow you as a poster, so I have no idea what you think or feel about this team, nor do I care. So the tense you put your comment in was incorrect, as I never mentioned you at all.

Pat on the other hand, hasn't said a positive thing about anything since he's shown up. He's a miserable person lately that is making the board unbearable to read.

A couple losses and this board has turned into NDnation, complete with the mouth-foaming idiots overunning the roost. I come to this joint to not only shoot the $hit about all things ND, but also to BS with like minded friends. Right now, this board is nothing but negativity and knee-jerk reactions.

But it looks like we aren't winning a championship this year... so maybe we should all burn Kelly at the stake?

Like you...I don't listen to much that Pat has to say. Largely I agree with you...his posts tend to **** me off and often drive me to stick a pencil in my eye.

I tend to be a little more optimistic, but do want accountability in our program. I am just as invested in where we are as the rest of the guys on here, but don't share some of the feelings that others have. I guess that is what this board is all about...sharing opinions. I expect more consistency in where we are, and to me an acceptable level for Notre Dame Football should be 9 to 10 wins a year. I don't know that there are many people on here that would disagree. We have had 1 such season, and don't know if we are on a trajectory to get there this year. That is the concerning part.

 

[IrishLion]

You can break down stats or whatever you want, there isn't a better man in the country to have as head football coach at Notre Dame.

Nick Saban (while tapping his rings on the table)....

I disagree that Saban would be any better... He dominates the SEC and CFB, sure, but it would be a challenge even for Saban at ND. He couldn't over-recruit the vast numbers, use shady recruiting staff members, "gray shirt" kids that are underwhelming/injured and he definitely couldn't get many of the players he recruits into school at ND.

ND is a different animal, as you well know, and it would be a challenge for any coach. Sure, ND has mand advantages that other programs do not, but the disadvantages will always leave ND a step behind in the all-important numbers and depth game, which is crucial to having a dominant program.

EDIT: I responded before I continued reading the thread and saw BGIF's response and your answer. My apologies.

 

[GreenSox04]

12-0 and the first NC Appearance in two decades and he's a genius.


3-2 through five games of the following season while trying to replace the glue of his defense, his starting quarterback and that said quarterbacks best target. Among other vital pieces on the field..

Oy.

 

[ThePiombino]

12-0 and the first NC Appearance in two decades and he's a genius.


3-2 through five games of the following season while trying to replace the glue of his defense, his starting quarterback and that said quarterbacks best target. Among other vital pieces on the field..

Oy.

Shows you how fragile the past 20 years has made the fan base.

 

[kmoose]

2012 is a just a joke without Kiel, Neal, etc.

Sheldon Day
Keivarae Russell
Jarron Jones
Ronnie Stanley
Elijah Shumate

Look, that's no murderer's row, by ANY stretch of the imagination. But it ain't no joke, either.

 

[tussin]

Sheldon Day
Keivarae Russell
Jarron Jones
Ronnie Stanley
Elijah Shumate

Look, that's no murderer's row, by ANY stretch of the imagination. But it ain't no joke, either.

Day and Russell are good.

Jarron Jones though? Has he ever played a snap besides ST?

 

[kmoose]

Day and Russell are good.

Jarron Jones though? Has he ever played a snap besides ST?

I saw him on the D Line, this past weekend.

 

[IrishLion]

Day and Russell are good.

Jarron Jones though? Has he ever played a snap besides ST?

Jones played a lot of snaps on D against Oklahoma. He didn't make any huge plays obviously, but I also don't remember seeing him get his *** handed to him either.

 

[kmoose]

Jones played a lot of snaps on D against Oklahoma. He didn't make any huge plays obviously, but I also don't remember seeing him get his *** handed to him either.

And it's not about how good Jones is. Its that, based on the guys left from the 2012 class, that class was no joke.

 

[Rudy89]

I'm still not ready to pass judgement on Kelly. He's the best and only option now but I refuse to proclaim any ND coach anything until we start winning BCS bowls or an NC because I proclaimed Weis the savior and... yeah.

 

[IrishFan4L]

Exactly! We can't nor should we compare ourselves to those programs. We proudly have different values.

How about we take some of those values & try mentoring some of those thugs you speak of & make them better people, better students, better athletes!! Right now we won't even give them a chance. We have to compete with those schools so why wouldn't we compare ourselves to them. There the ones kickin our *** year after year.

 

[Irish#1]

I agree completely. That is why I feel different with BK. I never felt like our previous three coaches had a clue on how to build a program.

I lived in Cincinnati during the MD and BK years. The changes BK made were far and away above what MD did. He was on a path of building a program.

His offense was not the reason ND hired him.

True. Would we be having this discussion if we would have beat OU?

For years critics said ND was irrelevant and no one could recruit the better players. because of academics, weather, administration and the pressure. I always maintained that this was garbage and it was a string of bad coaching hires. Kelly has proven the critics wrong.

 

[GowerND11]

How about we take some of those values & try mentoring some of those thugs you speak of & make them better people, better students, better athletes!! Right now we won't even give them a chance. We have to compete with those schools so why wouldn't we compare ourselves to them. There the ones kickin our *** year after year.

Yes try and have a student in remedial math, english, science, and probably doesn't have the credits necessary to make it into Notre Dame (even with lose admissions for athletes) and have him take a full Notre Dame course load, practice at a D1 school, in the middle of Northern Indiana, etc etc. They'd bolt faster than Vanderdoes.....

 

[IrishFan4L]

Yes try and have a student in remedial math, english, science, and probably doesn't have the credits necessary to make it into Notre Dame (even with lose admissions for athletes) and have him take a full Notre Dame course load, practice at a D1 school, in the middle of Northern Indiana, etc etc. They'd bolt faster than Vanderdoes.....

Some guys just need help they're not all a bunch of dumb asses like your making them out to be. Some of them given the chance could succeed, just because one might be labeled a thug doesn't make him stupid. Made bad decisions yes but not all are stupid. Get a few of those away from old friends & mix them with some of the stand up guys @ ND. People can change.

 

[aubeirish]

Some guys just need help they're not all a bunch of dumb asses like your making them out to be. Some of them given the chance could succeed, just because one might be labeled a thug doesn't make him stupid. Made bad decisions yes but not all are stupid. Get a few of those away from old friends & mix them with some of the stand up guys @ ND. People can change.

There are a lot of stupid football players. There are also the kids that could do it, but won't because there is an easier path.
That's a big group of them...

Besides, you're asking 16-17 years old to think like us. That's not going to happen. Normal kids don't think that far.

 

[PANDFAN]

Day and Russell are good.

Jarron Jones though? Has he ever played a snap besides ST?

he blocked an xtra point or a fg in the temple game

 

[GowerND11]

Some guys just need help they're not all a bunch of dumb asses like your making them out to be. Some of them given the chance could succeed, just because one might be labeled a thug doesn't make him stupid. Made bad decisions yes but not all are stupid. Get a few of those away from old friends & mix them with some of the stand up guys @ ND. People can change.

Look I agree they could succeed if given the chance, but is it realistic for them to do so at Notre Dame? I doubt it. Again they would be taking a full course load of very tough courses at ND while balancing football. The cost benefit of something like that to me just doesn't work out in favor of Notre Dame, let alone the student.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Pat on the other hand, hasn't said a positive thing about anything since he's shown up. He's a miserable person lately that is making the board unbearable to read.

LATELY?????? When has he not been anything but miserable, save for the day his twins were born? Just read his thoughts on this thread...seriously, my daughter's temper tantrums (and they can be pretty epic) pale in comparison to his tantrums on this thread.

Just call him Veruca Salt. That's all he really is.

12-0 and the first NC Appearance in two decades and he's a genius.


3-2 through five games of the following season while trying to replace the glue of his defense, his starting quarterback and that said quarterbacks best target. Among other vital pieces on the field..

Exactly. There are definitely issues on this team and in the program, but the reaction that so many ND 'fans' have had is absolutely embarrassing. I was at the OK game and I was pissed as hell walking out of there, but by the time I got home I got a grip and it was on to another game. Can't ever get why so many fans embarrass themselves online. Talking about the game and the team is one thing, but some people straight embarrass themselves and the program/university with their actions.

Day and Russell are good.

Jarron Jones though? Has he ever played a snap besides ST?

Dude, no way you can complain like you have, on a site with fans as knowledgeable/obsessed as the fans on this site, and come with a question like this. He has played quite a bit the past 2 games (I don't think he isn't very good yet AT ALL), and anyone who complains about the team/coach as you have should know something like this, don't you think? Know the team before you spout off IMHO...

 

[Irishman77]

Jones is the reason for the blocked punt we had on our first punt against mich st. Horrible horrible effort by him on that play.

I can't tell you how bad I hope he develops into a starter for us. We need him badly. He seems to play very nice and don't know if that is fixable.

 

[tussin]

Dude, no way you can complain like you have, on a site with fans as knowledgeable/obsessed as the fans on this site, and come with a question like this. He has played quite a bit the past 2 games (I don't think he isn't very good yet AT ALL), and anyone who complains about the team/coach as you have should know something like this, don't you think? Know the team before you spout off IMHO...

Dude, don't give me this crap. I knew he played on special teams and made an impact there in the Temple game. Sorry for overlooking his 2 tackles this year. I don't think I "should know" the details of Jarron Jones non-existent ND career thus far. Sorry that doesn't fit into your definition of a true fan.

That doesn't make the original argument any less awful. He shouldn't be considered a bright spot of the 2012 class yet.


Also, just because I question some of the staffs decisions doesn't mean I'm down on Kelly or complaining constantly. I'm most in Lax's camp, Kelly's done a pretty good job so far. But I won't apologize for not chugging the koolaid like some of the other posters here.

 

[BurningRiver]

Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Dude, don't give me this crap. I knew he played on special teams and made an impact there in the Temple game. Sorry for overlooking his 2 tackles this year. I don't think I "should know" the details of Jarron Jones non-existent ND career thus far. Sorry that doesn't fit into your definition of a true fan.

That doesn't make the original argument any less awful. He shouldn't be considered a bright spot of the 2012 class yet.


Also, just because I question some of the staffs decisions doesn't mean I'm down on Kelly or complaining constantly. I'm most in Lax's camp, Kelly's done a pretty good job so far. But I won't apologize for not chugging the koolaid like some of the other posters here.

It's not crap for me. I don't see how anyone could rip a kid when he doesn't even know if he's played or not (for the record, again, I don't think he's been good at all to this point, but I've seen him practice 3 times, I've seen him in the Spring Game, and I've seen him in several games this year as well. You haven't). So yeah, you 'should know the details' of his career before you bag on him IMO.

And FWIW, I never said you complained constantly. Don't know where you got that from.

 

[tussin]

It's not crap for me. I don't see how anyone could rip a kid when he doesn't even know if he's played or not (for the record, again, I don't think he's been good at all to this point, but I've seen him practice 3 times, I've seen him in the Spring Game, and I've seen him in several games this year as well. You haven't). So yeah, you 'should know the details' of his career before you bag on him IMO.

And FWIW, I never said you complained constantly. Don't know where you got that from.

Not sure why you are turning this into a d*ck measuring contest of who spends more time analyzing ND football. My original comment implied that using him as an example of success in the 2012 class wasn't appropriate and I stand by that.

I haven't seen him practice, I did watch the spring game (wasn't too impressed), and every week I watch the ND games in a very social situation (not able to notice every player on each snap). Not sure what your point is... I've seen enough to come to the same judgement as you, which is that the guy hasn't made an impact thus far in his career.

 

[stlnd01]

No matter how much he's played (and he's logged significant minutes since Day got hurt), we need Jarron Jones to play better. And Elijah Shumate. Also I'd include Chris Brown on the list of 2012 recruits who don't suck, but who could stand to up their game.

But the rest of this thread? Yikes.
Yeah, Kelly could be doing some things better (particularly in-game x's and o's, though I'd agree that's partly due to inconsistent QB play). But I'd put him among the top ten or 15 coaches in college football, and higher than that among the people who'd actually come to Notre Dame. Even though we lost Saturday, this program top to bottom is in a better place than it's been since at least the early Davie years. If you don't see that, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[IrishLax]

Sheldon Day
Keivarae Russell
Jarron Jones
Ronnie Stanley
Elijah Shumate

Look, that's no murderer's row, by ANY stretch of the imagination. But it ain't no joke, either.

2012 was hardly a good class by any stretch of the imagination. There were some highly rated players for sure, but low on quantity and overall quality. It ranked 19th in composite with Kiel and Neal included (our two highest rated commits). Subtract those guys, and it likely ranks somewhere in the high 20s or maybe 30s.

13 total players retained:
Day
Shumate
Stanley
Russel
Jarron Jones... these 5 guys were all bonafide solid 4 players
Okwara
Prosise
Chris Brown
Baratti... these 4 guys were all solid 3 project players with upside
Mahone... composite low 4, limited upside
Harrel
Turner
Daly... not sure what to make of any of these guys, all basically seem like depth pieces (or a specialist in Daly's case)

So after a year the 2012 class features a total of 10 legitimate recruits with serious potential to contribute if you count Mahone. Ten guys.... in a whole recruiting class... who needs sanctions when you have crap like this?

The crazy thing is that if stuff broke different ways we probably have around 18 legitimate guys including 2 top CBs, a top WR, a top ATH, the top prostyle QB, a hyper athletic OLB/ILB tweener prospect, a high upside OT, and a solid low 4 WR. How different does the class look then? It looks awesome and many of the deficiencies we have this year are probably plugged by these kids who would now be sophomores. Certainly our secondary would be better.