Very Post Game Observations (Michigan State) ....

[AvesEvo]

You mean the last two games that we....wait for it....WON?! My god I've never seen a fanbase so upset after wins. I'll take ugly wins over beautiful losses every single time. I live in Georgia about 45 minutes from Athens so I'm thoroughly in the heart of Bulldawg nation and they had two beautiful losses recently (Alabama and Clemson) and trust me they'd trade their beautiful losses for 17-13 grinding victories.

Perhaps BK is just a pragmatist who fits his system to the personnel he has and not the other way around. Do you know how many fanbases can would kill to have won 15 of 17 and 10 home games in a row? I also cheer for the Gophers because I'm a native Minnesotan and trust me Gopher fans wouldn't mind winning every game 3-2 if it meant they got to win 12 games last season and go the MNC.

So what you're saying is that Purdue and Michigan St are comparable to Alabama and Clemson?

 

[Domer4ever]

His way of playing, schematically, is going to change based on what his personnel are. Last year, we had two very good Senior tailbacks, in Riddick and Wood, so we ran the ball quite a bit (506 rushing attempts to 388 passing attempts). This year, the tailback situation was very much up in the air, coming into the season. But you have an experienced Senior QB returning, who by all accounts certainly appears to have improved arm strength. He is still not mobile, but coming into the season, he is more of a complete package than any of your tailbacks are. So we start the season throwing more than running. Gee, that makes sense. You want Kelly to have some kind of rigid system in place, and force players to fit into the system. News Flash: most successful college coaches have a base system that they tailor to the strengths of their personnel. Kelly wants to run an uptempo spread. But he's smart enough not to try to force some rigid system onto players that are not well suited for it.

If you think I am taking a cheap shot at Weis, or have anything other than great respect for him, then you are VERY wrong. I always supported Weis. But the fact remains that his teams quit in more than one game.

Brian Kelly changes with the wind. He let's other teams dictate what he runs on offense as much or more than any personnel shortcomings on the roster that he may need to "adapt to." He can and has gone from pounding the rock one week, to not even trying to run it more than a handful of times the next week because well, "they had a really good defensive front and we knew going in running would be tough." There is zero consistency in anything he does from play calling to personnel (actually I take that back.....he does consistently call that WR bubble screen that never works). I can't imagine a team like Alabama, Wisconsin, Stanford, Oklahoma State, Oregon, etc., let an opponent dictate the way they are going to play a football game. Or a coach like Saban, Meyer, Harbaugh/Shaw, or any number of other coaches taking this long to get their system into place and firing on all cylinders. You say he wants to run an "uptempo spread," then why have we never seen it 4 games into year four? I agree with you that its probably what he wants to run, but is it going to be another four years before we are going to get to see the guru's great system in place? You make it out like Kelly has all the answers and everything is by his genius design when it clearly isn't.

Again, winning is great, but it could be argued Weis did more with less at the same point in his ND coaching career as Kelly has. I think Kelly has been pretty average from an actual coaching perspective at ND and in all honesty benefited from a lot of luck last year, and a senior class recruited by Weis that would not be denied. When does this team start capitalizing on the large talent discrepancy they hold over a lot of their opponents and hammer them in the fashion of some of those teams I mentioned above?

 

[WakeUpEchoes]

Brian Kelly changes with the wind. He let's other teams dictate what he runs on offense as much or more than any personnel shortcomings on the roster that he may need to "adapt to." He can and has gone from pounding the rock one week, to not even trying to run it more than a handful of times the next week because well, "they had a really good defensive front and we knew going in running would be tough." There is zero consistency in anything he does from play calling to personnel (actually I take that back.....he does consistently call that WR bubble screen that never works). I can't imagine a team like Alabama, Wisconsin, Stanford, Oklahoma State, Oregon, etc., let an opponent dictate the way they are going to play a football game. Or a coach like Saban, Meyer, Harbaugh/Shaw, or any number of other coaches taking this long to get their system into place and firing on all cylinders. You say he wants to run an "uptempo spread," then why have we never seen it 4 games into year four? I agree with you that its probably what he wants to run, but is it going to be another four years before we are going to get to see the guru's great system in place? You make it out like Kelly has all the answers and everything is by his genius design when it clearly isn't.

Again, winning is great, but it could be argued Weis did more with less at the same point in his ND coaching career as Kelly has. I think Kelly has been pretty average from an actual coaching perspective at ND and in all honesty benefited from a lot of luck last year, and a senior class recruited by Weis that would not be denied. When does this team start capitalizing on the large talent discrepancy they hold over a lot of their opponents and hammer them in the fashion of some of those teams I mentioned above?

HE LOST HIS STARTING QUARTERBACK 3 MONTHS BEFORE THE SEASON STARTED.

I'd rather have a coach that adapts his system to the personnel that he has (ESPECIALLY when it is not completely in his control) than forcing a system where the talent he has will not be able to accept it.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Brian Kelly changes with the wind. He let's other teams dictate what he runs on offense as much or more than any personnel shortcomings on the roster that he may need to "adapt to." He can and has gone from pounding the rock one week, to not even trying to run it more than a handful of times the next week because well, "they had a really good defensive front and we knew going in running would be tough." There is zero consistency in anything he does from play calling to personnel (actually I take that back.....he does consistently call that WR bubble screen that never works). I can't imagine a team like Alabama, Wisconsin, Stanford, Oklahoma State, Oregon, etc., let an opponent dictate the way they are going to play a football game. Or a coach like Saban, Meyer, Harbaugh/Shaw, or any number of other coaches taking this long to get their system into place and firing on all cylinders. You say he wants to run an "uptempo spread," then why have we never seen it 4 games into year four? I agree with you that its probably what he wants to run, but is it going to be another four years before we are going to get to see the guru's great system in place? You make it out like Kelly has all the answers and everything is by his genius design when it clearly isn't.

Again, winning is great, but it could be argued Weis did more with less at the same point in his ND coaching career as Kelly has. I think Kelly has been pretty average from an actual coaching perspective at ND and in all honesty benefited from a lot of luck last year, and a senior class recruited by Weis that would not be denied. When does this team start capitalizing on the large talent discrepancy they hold over a lot of their opponents and hammer them in the fashion of some of those teams I mentioned above?

In Kelly's defense, he has had some bad luck bringing in a QB to consistently run his system. Some of the bad luck is selfmade, but I think he found his guy with Golson, and Golson obviously **** the bed. Tommy is a mediocre game manager. His arm has gotten stronger, but he does not have the arm to thread the needle into tight windows. I was watching tons of highlights of the past few games and noticed that deep post is consistently wide open in between the CB and Safety and behind the LB. It's only open for a few seconds, but the problem is that Tommy can't shoot the ball into the window 20-25 yards down field. I'm not saying to bench Tommy, not at all, but we have to be consciously aware of his limitations and the consequences of them.

Its instances like those that are holding the offense back from really exploding and taking advantage of our skill position talent. BK hasn't been able to establish any consistency because the main part in his offensive machine keeps changing. Kelly doesn't run a west coast offense where we can dink and dunk down the field. He's not wired that way, he needs a QB with big chunk play ability, and once he has the QB established in a his system...the light will turn on. I know its year 4, but unfortunately, weve encountered some setbacks at the position that are making everything go haywire.

 

[ryno 24]

Is this a serious post? Your point about us running offense based on the other team gives you is what most successful teams do. If they give you press coverage and 8 in the box you are not going to run the ball, because there are more men than blockers. If they drop 8 or 9 you run. Because Tommy is not athletic and is not that accurate other coaches scheme against that. Kelly has faith in Rees so he does throw it.

Also, Weis in his third year if I remember went 3-9 which is downright embarrassing. In his fourth year he went 7-5. Yea last year was his Weis' recruiting class, but the main receivers were recruited by Kelly so was the qb. The stout defensive line was 2/3 Kelly's. Half of the linebackers were Kelly's guys. The secondary by the end of the year was 3/4 Kelly's guys.

I would like safer wins as well, but when you have your backup qb playing the entire year due to undue circumstances that were not his doing your offense may struggle. We lost an all everything player on defense, though I think we should be doing better. We are still probably going to win 8 games which I thought we would do after we lost Golson. With Golson we probably could have won 10 or more.

 

[Domer4ever]

HE LOST HIS STARTING QUARTERBACK 3 MONTHS BEFORE THE SEASON STARTED.

I'd rather have a coach that adapts his system to the personnel that he has (ESPECIALLY when it is not completely in his control) than forcing a system where the talent he has will not be able to accept it.

WHO CARES?!?! DID WE RUN AN UPTEMPO SPREAD WITH GOLSON LAST YEAR? THE ANSWER IS NO. SO AGAIN, WHAT IS HE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH?

And for all you pointing to Golson as the easy out, don't forget Golson didn't finish a handful of games last season and for the most part was pretty pedestrian passing the football. I know you all think Kelly farts powdered sugar and is an absolute genius, but grasp the reality that he is not the offensive genius he was made out to be when he got here.

 

[PANDFAN]

WHO CARES?!?! DID WE RUN AN UPTEMPO SPREAD WITH GOLSON LAST YEAR? THE ANSWER IS NO. SO AGAIN, WHAT IS HE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH?

And for all you pointing to Golson as the easy out, don't forget Golson didn't finish a handful of games last season and for the most part was pretty pedestrian passing the football. I know you all think Kelly farts powdered sugar and is an absolute genius, but grasp the reality that he is not the offensive genius he was made out to be when he got here.

remember this quote from Kelly when he came to ND: when I was at Cinci my job was to put people in the stands...i don't need to do that at Notre Dame---this was his quote when talking about the offense a year or so ago

 

[ryno 24]

Golson ran more of an uptempo offense. I think he is a very good offensive coach, but he is not being paid to be an offensive coach he is being paid to win games and guess what he is doing that. He is the first coach to get us to an undefeated season and a natty since wait for it Lou Holtz, so unless you want to go back someone like Charlie or Ty or Davie I dont know what your complaining about.

Rees should not be a starting qb for a school like Notre Dame let alone some Mac teams so for him to be playing this well Kelly must be doing something right.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I know you all think Kelly farts powdered sugar and is an absolute genius, but grasp the reality that he is not the offensive genius he was made out to be when he got here.

As I mentioned before, all Kelly's apologists have to do is point to his record. The guy's win % over a 22 year head coaching career is elite. He's developed a well-earned reputation as program builder, and he's won big at every school he's coached.

But that's not good enough for you. Wins aren't enough. You aren't happy with the style in which he wins. So you keep posting this pessimistic nonsense here about how, despite the long track record of excellence, now Kelly's mediocrity as a coach is finally being exposed. He just got really lucky in the ~18 years before he arrived at ND. GTFO with this crap; no one's buying.

Why not go post at NDNation? Serious question here. They'd eat this sh!t up. Might even make you a site moderator.

 

[Domer4ever]

Is this a serious post? Your point about us running offense based on the other team gives you is what most successful teams do. If they give you press coverage and 8 in the box you are not going to run the ball, because there are more men than blockers. If they drop 8 or 9 you run. Because Tommy is not athletic and is not that accurate other coaches scheme against that. Kelly has faith in Rees so he does throw it.

Also, Weis in his third year if I remember went 3-9 which is downright embarrassing. In his fourth year he went 7-5. Yea last year was his Weis' recruiting class, but the main receivers were recruited by Kelly so was the qb. The stout defensive line was 2/3 Kelly's. Half of the linebackers were Kelly's guys. The secondary by the end of the year was 3/4 Kelly's guys.

I would like safer wins as well, but when you have your backup qb playing the entire year due to undue circumstances that were not his doing your offense may struggle. We lost an all everything player on defense, though I think we should be doing better. We are still probably going to win 8 games which I thought we would do after we lost Golson. With Golson we probably could have won 10 or more.

It's successful to an extent, but again, you can't let it dictate the way you want to play football from a play calling/personnel standpoint which is what Kelly does. Part of the problem is nobody really knows what this team does well because of sporadic play calling and the shuffling of players and personnel groupings in and out of the lineup. There is no consistency with anything.

TJ Jones was a Weis recruit. I do give Kelly credit for recruiting the defensive side of the football though, which is something Weis was never able to do.

 

[Pachuco]

I think it is very possible to offer reasonable critiques without completely sh%tcanning coaches and players or labeling anyone who happens to defend the staff (for their merits) as koolaid-drinking homers. Many posters do this regularly on this site. It's called balance, and it's a good read.

With that said, the "fire Chuck Martin" rants are pretty ridiculous.

That is all.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

From Brian Fremeau:

The Fighting Irish moved to 3-1 with a 17-13 victory over Michigan State on Saturday. The win over the Spartans was Notre Dame’s 10th victory in its last 11 games that were decided by a single score. As with many of those close games, the Irish needed its defense to play its best down the stretch. They delivered.

Michigan State forced a Notre Dame three-and-out midway through the fourth quarter, and started the first of its final three drives of the game at its own 26-yard line. The Irish gave up only 19 yards in six plays on that possession, forcing a punt. Three plays later, the Irish defense was back on the field, this time facing a Michigan State drive starting from the Spartans’ 32-yard line. Notre Dame gave up only three yards before forcing another punt. After yet another three-and-out for the Irish, Michigan State started its final drive of the game from its own 33-yard line. Four plays and two yards later, the Irish had forced a turnover on downs and proceeded to run out the clock over the final 1:46 of the game.

On those three drives, Michigan State’s starting field position presented a total of 209 available yards. The Notre Dame defense gave up only 20 yards on 13 plays in that sequence, a total of 9.6 percent of available yards. As illustrated in the chart above, it was the second most dominant performance down the stretch in the last 11 single-score games Notre Dame has played. Only the final three-possession sequence in regulation against Pittsburgh last season (9 plays, negative-4 yards) was more efficient.

Under Brian Kelly, Notre Dame has won its last seven games that were decided by a single score. That streak ties Kelly with Ara Parseghian for third among Notre Dame head coaches.

1. Elmer Layden (12 single-score wins without a single-score loss, 1937-1939)
2. Knute Rockne (10 single-score wins without a single-score loss, 1927-1930)
t-3. Brian Kelly (7 single-score wins without a single-score loss, 2012-present)
t-3. Ara Parseghian (7 single-score wins without a single-score loss, 1972-1975)
5. Lou Holtz (6 single-score wins without a single-score loss, 1988-1990)

 

[Domer4ever]

As I mentioned before, all Kelly's apologists have to do is point to his record. The guy's win % over a 22 year head coaching career is elite. He's developed a well-earned reputation as program builder, and he's won big at every school he's coached.

But that's not good enough for you. Wins aren't enough. You aren't happy with the style in which he wins. So you keep posting this pessimistic nonsense here about how, despite the long track record of excellence, now Kelly's mediocrity as a coach is finally being exposed. He just got really lucky in the ~18 years before he arrived at ND. GTFO with this crap; no one's buying.

Why not go post at NDNation? Serious question here. They'd eat this sh!t up. Might even make you a site moderator.

Who gives a ****!? A vast majority of that winning percentage was accomplished Division II Grand Valley State for god's sake! Right now, he isn't much better than Weis at the same point in their ND coaching careers despite Kelly having superior talent and facilities. Do you deny this team is playing sloppy football, playing down to the level of their opponents, and could just as easily have lost games against Purdue and Michigan State if not for a play here or there and despite the large margin in roster talent? Am I happy they won? Absolutely! But I'm not some homer like yourself that refuses to acknowledge this teams issues from the coaching staff on down and understands the fact that the good fortune they have enjoyed is eventually going to run its course leaving a sloppy football team in its wake.

Keep on keeping on though.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Bogs can back me up on this (if he remembers my lengthy tangent on the subject), but for everyone else this is a PSA:

This is one of my biggest pet peeves in the world lol. Brian Kelly did NOT use a 2-QB system at UC. He used a 4 QB system at UC that was based on injuries. He did not use a "change of pace" QB or alternate QB (actually, he did once that I can recall, and it was a TE that lined up as the QB. He put stud/athletic freak Travis Kelce at QB against Rutgers in the redzone for two plays in 2008 or 2009).

The only time you could say that he actually rotated QBs was in 2008. Dustin Grutza got injured, Pike took over and played. Eventually Pike missed two games due to injury, so Chaz Anderson and Zach Collaros both got reps to see who had more command of the offense. Late in the season, with Pike back at the helm, BK used a "rotation" for 5 or 6 plays against Louisville to get Grutza some reps late in the season. That was the only time he actually used the "change of pace" 2-QB system.

It is a myth that BK used a 2-QB system, and as a UC fan it bothers me haha.

I don't know what this guy is talking about and I have never seen or heard of him before!





The guy Lion is actually right. And it is a really important point about Kelly's coaching. Sorry it took me so long to reply, but I been busy.

Here is the deal. Most of Kelly's QB dealings at Cincy were next man in, and trying to make things work smoothly. As he moved on at Cincy, he had catastrophic QB injuries to overcome. Showed some great coaching to keep the offense rolling, with all the bodies dropping. Didn't the one year Cincy actually suffer something like six injuries to the four quarterbacks or something?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Good for you. Thanks for sharing.

The MAC is a crap conference.

And if you'd like, I can post videos of 8th graders dunking in basketball games to prove how awesome their Parochial League is compared to the ACC, Big East, Big Ten, Big XII or any other major college basketball conference.

Class act. (the post.)

 

[PANDFAN]

Who gives a ****!? A vast majority of that winning percentage was accomplished Division II Grand Valley State for god's sake! Right now, he isn't much better than Weis at the same point in their ND coaching careers despite Kelly having superior talent and facilities. Do you deny this team is playing sloppy football, playing down to the level of their opponents, and could just as easily have lost games against Purdue and Michigan State if not for a play here or there and despite the large margin in roster talent? Am I happy they won? Absolutely! But I'm not some homer like yourself that refuses to acknowledge this teams issues from the coaching staff on down and understands the fact that the good fortune they have enjoyed is eventually going to run its course leaving a sloppy football team in its wake.

Keep on keeping on though.

the BIG difference between Weis's teams and BK's is that even though we have played similar to playing down to the opponent, sometimes sloppy football....we actually come out w/ the WIN....

 

[PANDFAN]

THIS THREAD

 

[Bogtrotter07]

While I agree an ugly win is still a win, there is a danger in dismissing the things the Irish must correct in order to be able to compete and beat better teams than MSU. Not saying you are or other posters are either but there was so much wrong with the Irish Saturday that it can't be dismissed as simply ugly. After watching my team play this weekend and gain nothing more than an ugly win, I came to the conclusion that they will not beat upper echelon teams such as LSU - and maybe even middling Ole Miss next week - unless they start fixing those issues that plague them. Case in point is the defense. While it is apparent they are starting to figure some things out, they are still not consistent enough in order to rise up and beat much better teams than they played Saturday. And just because they have won a couple of crystal balls means nothing for this year's team. I am confident in the coaching staff and that they will do what it takes to fix those issues. I am also confident in Kelly and his staff to do the same. But I do know it will take a much, much better effort from both teams this Saturday to walk away with wins.

I don't think there was as much wrong with anything Saturday as there was against Purdue, And MSU was a much better team. Especially on defense; I watched and the ND offense ran their guard pulling left to right his week, so Christian didn't have to pull as much??? But the only problem I saw other than Mr. Potentials obvious blocking problems, was incredibly fast and highly motivated MSU defenders crashing down the line to make the play. ND has not seen this yet this year, and probably won't again. SC will be closer. But even Stanford with it's great D doesn't have the speed and athleticism on the line that MSU does. They have most of the athleticism, maybe more size, but these Moo Uoo guys were hallin' and leapin', lord almighty!

 

[Bogtrotter07]

THIS THREAD

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/G4Aqf2MrJWU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Good theme PF! I thought I might add to the party!

 

[IrishLion]

Is this team 3-1 or 1-3? Sometimes it's hard to tell with the way people panic.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Who gives a ****!? A vast majority of that winning percentage was accomplished Division II Grand Valley State for god's sake!

Nearly a third of his total games coached (83) have been at Cincinnati and ND. His win % at BCS schools is 78%. So no, you can't dismiss his record due to GVS and CMU; though he did win multiple titles during that tenure.

Right now, he isn't much better than Weis at the same point in their ND coaching careers despite Kelly having superior talent and facilities.

Yes, and Weis' two successful teams were headlined by recruits from Willingham's only good recruiting class. Once the team was full of his recruits, he never did better than 6-6.

Do you deny this team is playing sloppy football, playing down to the level of their opponents, and could just as easily have lost games against Purdue and Michigan State if not for a play here or there and despite the large margin in roster talent?

I admit that I expected a more dominant defense, and better run blocking from our OL. I've since reconciled those expectations with the apparent limitations of our new personnel. And I recognize that I simply don't know enough about our scheme and personnel to make sweeping generalizations about who is responsible for our shortcomings this season. That's the main difference between us. You only have a tiny fraction of the relevant data that our coaching staff has, and yet you feel comfortable calling out one of the best coaches in the nation. That's staggeringly arrogant.

But I'm not some homer like yourself that refuses to acknowledge this teams issues from the coaching staff on down and understands the fact that the good fortune they have enjoyed is eventually going to run its course leaving a sloppy football team in its wake.

Let's discuss this team's short-comings, the apparent limitations of our personnel, etc. When you limit yourself to such substantive topics, you're usually a positive contributor around here. But when you start trying to play the blame game, you go off the deep end. You're like a more articulate, but no less irrationally pessimistic, irishpat183.

 

[koonja]

Irishpat183's wolfpack is growing! Lol.

 

[woolybug25]

My god... I think there is a reason Domer4ever rarely posts. What a total backfire that was.

 

[PANDFAN]

Irishpat183's wolfpack is growing! Lol.

irishpat-president
Title2114-vp
Patuski-secretary
Domer4ever -currently pledging

 

[koonja]

irishpat-president
Title2114-vp
Patuski-secretary
Domer4ever -currently pledging

Irishpat is the Lord Voldemort of IE. He needs to split his 'soul' (username) into multiple accounts (hocruxes) in order to make it tougher to 'kill' him, while at the same time recruiting 'death eaters'.

FYI - Irishpat, I think you're hilarious so don't take this the wrong way, I just finished HP 6 and I wanted to get my nerd on.

 

[ickythump1225]

Truth. Do you guys really think anybody would be complaining if we beat michigan or Oklahoma or Stanford in an ugly game? Hell no. But when you're playing poorly and squeaking out wins against Purdue (got rocked by Wisconsin) and MSU (Western Michigan and South Florida held them to about the same offensive output as we did) there are severe problems that need to be fixed.

Yes.

 

[ickythump1225]

the BIG difference between Weis's teams and BK's is that even though we have played similar to playing down to the opponent, sometimes sloppy football....we actually come out w/ the WIN....

BUT WINNING IS NOT IMPORTANT!! IT'S ONLY IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE AN "IDENTITY" AND WIN IN THE STYLE AND MANNER THAT I DEMAND!

 

[greyhammer90]

*greyhammer90 sits down at his table*

"Lets check out the boards now that it's been a couple of days"

...

I'll see you guys on Saturday.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Irishpat is the Lord Voldemort of IE. He needs to split his 'soul' (username) into multiple accounts (hocruxes) in order to make it tougher to 'kill' him, while at the same time recruiting 'death eaters'.

FYI - Irishpat, I think you're hilarious so don't take this the wrong way, I just finished HP 6 and I wanted to get my nerd on.

I am surprised you didn't start a thread questioning if dementors really existed.

:dunkedon:

 

[koonja]

I am surprised you didn't start a thread questioning if dementors really existed.

:dunkedon:

I'm saving that one for the off-season.