Post Game Observations....

rtrn2glory

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Golson was 3/8 for 30 yards, and 2 INTs, last year vs. Michigan. He also had 1 rush for 0 yards.

But he would have made ALL of the difference, last night?

that was his second career start....you honestly think he wouldn't have been better last night than a year ago? really? did you not watch the difference/improvement he made for our offense as the year went along and then add an entire spring and preseason practice season to the mix.

really? if you don't think he would have made all the difference in the world then we need to re-think whether we want him to return at all.

come on moose you know better than that to bring up last year's game after the way he matured on the field right before our very eyes.
 

TheSunIsRising

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I disagree (obviously). Everyone in the thread was calling it a dumb decision (myself included) BEFORE they picked it up. Here's why:
pub


A 2nd & 19 = ~30% chance of conversion. 3rd & 9 = ~35% chance of conversion. That's a big 5%. You take the penalty every time because of the math.

Wasn't it a 3rd and 8 vs. 2nd and 18 decision, which by the chart would be a wash?

A few things on this chart:
1)This is NFL data
2)It is over 6 years old (1 & 2 implying it doesn't factor in impact of spread type offenses)
2)Doesn't take into consideration field position (comment below)

On field position: I agree with your overall point about taking the penalty, primarily because it would have placed Michigan at 2nd and 18 from their own 14, which in theory would have put more doubt in Gardner's mind. If they were at midfield (or at the ND 10 yard line), I might think differently.

I don't think it is an easy decision either way.
 

NYIrish14

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Humble thoughts:

a). Tommy Rees is just fine. He will have one of the most productive passing seasons in ND history.

b). Coach Kelly is just fine. He will scheme and direct us to a massive yardage and points total --- as much as he's allowed to do by Diaco's "give them the 20-to-20 yardlines" philosophy of eating time on the clock.

c). Maybe Coach will finally fall out of love with George Atkinson, and play RBs who can catch the ball. Dropping passes stops drives.

And now the really painful things.....

d). although I agree with all that BGIF has said about the defense and replacing Te'o, KLM, and Zeke [let alone Danny], we STILL should be better than we are showing so far. Sheldon Day is very good. Collinsworth is, supposedly, very field smart. The rest of the returning stars are a year older --- they should have improved ... but, no. We seem to have gone backwards.

e). My, and practically every green-koolaid drinker's, optimism about this team was founded upon the belief that the defense would be one of the top-5 if not THE best defense in the country. So far, we're OK, but far from top-5. Why?

f). some of this is what BGIF has said... loss of great leadership. But I believe that it's "worse" than that. This is my very unpopular breakdown:
1]. secondary is flawed. NOT Keivaree Russell. That TD pass was as well defended as one could ask. The ball was placed preternaturally. Farley still takes the wrong road and isn't instinctive. Sometimes he looks great; sometimes.... BJ will be generally "good". Collinsworth will improve with reps. We need him for his brains.
2]. Linebacking isn't productive. Councell and Smith seem athletic and eager enough. So does Grace. So does Shembo. So, in their own strange way would Foxabreese if they were back to sharing WILL situationally. What's wrong??
3]. Nix is efforting his a$$ off; so is Kona. So also seems Day. Tuitt?? I swear he's taking plays off. Is he still sub-par health-wise and everyone's keeping it mum??

But none of that seems sufficient to explain our gap between last year's play and this. If it's not the players [so much], then what?

What if Saban showed the world how to scheme this team, and "we" cannot effectively adjust?? Every opponent has that tape. What if, despite Big Lou elevating his motor to Olympian proportions [I have never seen a man of his size hustle so much], the opposing OCs "see" the ways to neutralize what last year we did so well?? But why haven't WE adjusted??

On the surface it seems like we are trying to with the increased blitzing, but it doesn't seem to work. Why not??

There are coaches who coach a "pretty good" game, and will forever be only pretty good. There are coaches who coach a perfect "fixed" system --- they are the Watchmakers. They are remarkably good at systematizing something that if you are not extremely "ready" for it, "it" will beat you. The Great Clockwork defensive system is what Diaco makes. As Barrett Jones said: they are good because they're simple. But they're simple.

When opponents figure out Great Clocks, IF they have great personnel themselves, the Clocks will not keep good time. The Clockmaker must adjust. Our DC is young at this job; I don't think that he's yet up to it. [I have yet to see a really good adjustment to defensive problems until we have had a halftime to think about them]. Lots of DCs are this way... but they are not the elite DCs. I have watched VT for years. Budd Foster watches the first one or two series, and figures it out before halftime.

And... despite linebacker training, some DCs know how to scheme and time and disguise and change blitzes, and some haven't quite got it [yet]. Watching us, we ain't got it.... lots of big effort to little real effect.

This defense for whatever the reasons has not improved, AND the opposing OCs have done so. .... Very disillusioning. Very off-putting for enthusiasm for another great season. Where I felt that we'd control almost every game on the schedule due to a suffocating defense, now.............. hah!, we better pray that Tommy really shines. He's going to have to outscore a bunch of teams now.

Reps. I have always felt that our defense is predictable even though we run a 3-4. It never seems like Diaco comes up with creative blitz packages or anything. I really like Diaco but I just don't know how elite of a coach he is. I would love for him to prove me wrong.
 
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koonja

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It was a tough call either way. 2nd and 18 sounds really nice, but do you want Gardner to have two chances to make a big play? IDK. Hindsight, I'd obviously take the penalty but I can see it both ways.
 

Rudy89

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Unless something changes I think we lose to OU, ASU, BYU, and Stanford. 7-5 and forever average is the only thing I'm seeing in the future right now. We always seem to drop off when there are expectations on us.
 

aubeirish

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Niklas is next in line for tight end U recognition. He's an absolute beast out there.
 

aubeirish

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Unless something changes I think we lose to OU, ASU, BYU, and Stanford. 7-5 and forever average is the only thing I'm seeing in the future right now. We always seem to drop off when there are expectations on us.

Give me a break.
 

kmoose

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A 2nd & 19 = ~30% chance of conversion. 3rd & 9 = ~35% chance of conversion. That's a big 5%. You take the penalty every time because of the math.

I think they did make a decision based on the math.

Chances of stopping Gardner last night on one play? ~2%

Chances of stopping Gardner last night on two plays in a row? ~.00000000000000000001%
 

clashmore_jon

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Unless something changes I think we lose to OU, ASU, BYU, and Stanford. 7-5 and forever average is the only thing I'm seeing in the future right now. We always seem to drop off when there are expectations on us.

c'mon man. even if you think we go 7-5 this year, there are lots of positive things going on in the program. Our offense looks pretty good, even without EG. we've just got some things to work on.

we lost a hard fought game against a ranked opponent in a hostile environment. happens to the best. an occasional low spot makes it all the more fun when you get back on top.
 

irishff1014

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c'mon man. even if you think we go 7-5 this year, there are lots of positive things going on in the program. Our offense looks pretty good, even without EG. we've just got some things to work on.

we lost a hard fought game against a ranked opponent in a hostile environment. happens to the best. an occasional low spot makes it all the more fun when you get back on top.

There is nothing positive about 7-5. Sorry bud.
 

Joee

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I'm just coming to grips with the ugly reality. Even a USC loss hardly lessens the pain, but I still think the Irish are going to finish about #15; and if you're going to lose, lose early.
 

returnofthemack

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c'mon man. even if you think we go 7-5 this year, there are lots of positive things going on in the program. Our offense looks pretty good, even without EG. we've just got some things to work on.

we lost a hard fought game against a ranked opponent in a hostile environment. happens to the best. an occasional low spot makes it all the more fun when you get back on top.

"occasional" low spot haha. We won't get back on top. We may approach the summit, but then an actual elite team will just kick us clear off the mountain.
 

zemaniak

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that was his second career start....you honestly think he wouldn't have been better last night than a year ago? really? did you not watch the difference/improvement he made for our offense as the year went along and then add an entire spring and preseason practice season to the mix.

really? if you don't think he would have made all the difference in the world then we need to re-think whether we want him to return at all.

come on moose you know better than that to bring up last year's game after the way he matured on the field right before our very eyes.

What frustrates me is that they are able to scheme and disguise and succeed in confusing Golson last year, but we are unable to with Gardner this year
 

Walter White

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My brief observations are that if the defense would have been playing like they did in the 2nd half for the whole game, we would have won.

We were tentative and slow while blitzing, although it improved later on. Tackling was horrendous but got better through the game.

Michigan caught us flatfooted and Garner is a bonafide player. We are who we are which should be good enough to get through til Stanford. Their guys stepped up a few more plays than ours.
 

nd_fan

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"occasional" low spot haha. We won't get back on top. We may approach the summit, but then an actual elite team will just kick us clear off the mountain.

You know what they say, its better to lose in the beginning of the season than to lose in the end. We can still come back and finish 10-2 or 11-1. Still lot of football left.

Although I am worried how much are we going to fall off the rankings after this loss.
 

phgreek

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1. Guess what? The Defense isn't as good as most people had hoped/thought. I think that the D is really missing Manti Teo in the middle. It looks to me as if the D Line is not just pinning their ears back and getting after the quarterback, like they did last year. They could get away with it, last year, because Manti was there to clean up any runners that slipped past. This year? We don't have that guy. So the rushers have to slow down on their way to the quarterback, making the secondary look terrible. The secondary just isn't able to cover for that long. Get to the quarterback quickly and they wil be fine. Take your time getting there, and quarterbacks will eat up our secondary.

2. The kicking game looked much more like we expected it to.

3. The play calling was at times puzzling, but was most likely proper, based on the looks that the defense was giving them.

4. I think TJ Jones was hurting, in the second half. There were a couple of balls that came close to him, that went incomplete. I'm not blaming him for those, just saying that I normally see him making a MUCH greater effort to get to the ball.

These games are becoming bad for my heart. I'm almost glad to see the series take a break for a while.



Defense
Regurgitation of Temple...only we faced a BCS program.


Offense
Better defense...Seriously. A TR lead offense is not going to put up 40 points against BCS defenses. If we can hold teams to 24-27, we are in every game. TR does need to get his completion percentage closer to 70 than 50...but he did exactly ...I mean exactly what I thought he'd do...some good things, and just enough bad things to leave ya flat on his performance. But we know what we get there, and it should be PLENTY to win.

Special teams
We are better than years past...I don't think this will lose football games for us. Might even win one or two.

General
Not 2012 team. No, zero, nada palpable leadership on either side of the ball. There is no Theo, nor Manti...the guy who executes when it counts the most...little hope of that happening soon because the guys that should be moving in to that role failed to execute when it counted yesterday...so how can you be the guy?

Best shot we have on O is Amir. On D...Shembo.
 

Walter White

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Also, nix is absolutely incredible to watch. How is a man that big so quick and have such good conditioning?

I think the lights might be starting to really come on for ishaq.

All our WR are playing excellent.

The offensive line is playing superb. They look like a well disciplined squad with great conditioning.
 

irishandy

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My observations:
1) In Tommy I still trust, he's going to throw INT's, his last one bounced Michigan's way, and I thought he controlled the offense well.
2) Amir Carlisle is my #1 running back he ran really well especially up the middle.
3) Our o-line did a hell of a job pass blocking for Tommy.
4) Get Niklas the ball as much as possible, good things happen when he gets the ball in his hands. One of his last catches it took 6 or 7 Michigan defenders to bring him down!!
5) Take this loss out on Purdue next Saturday, I don't want a 35-7 win, I want to score in the 50's or 60's. Unleash the offense so they can have some momentum for the next 4 tough games ahead.
 

texbender

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Irish were outplayed. Had chances to win. Critical mistakes. Get over it and get ready for the next game, this can still be a good season.
 

magogian

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Funny note about the ACC officiating crew. Apparently, they were suspended part of last year in part for **** poor PI calls.

Apparently, they haven't learned.
 

Kak7304

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They key will be the defense.If they can't stop a team from scoring its going to be a long season.

Michigan is the best offense we'll face this season and they were clicking. We'll be fine.
 

IrishSteelhead

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Minus a few plays, the defense was fine IMO until 3rd down. Perhaps my memory is fuzzy from drinking too much, but I feel like we gave up a hundred 3rd and longs.....So frustrating.
 

rtrn2glory

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What frustrates me is that they are able to scheme and disguise and succeed in confusing Golson last year, but we are unable to with Gardner this year

gardner had a lot more experience last night than golson had going into last season's contest
 
B

Bogtrotter07

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Humble thoughts:

a). Tommy Rees is just fine. He will have one of the most productive passing seasons in ND history.

b). Coach Kelly is just fine. He will scheme and direct us to a massive yardage and points total --- as much as he's allowed to do by Diaco's "give them the 20-to-20 yardlines" philosophy of eating time on the clock.

c). Maybe Coach will finally fall out of love with George Atkinson, and play RBs who can catch the ball. Dropping passes stops drives.

And now the really painful things.....

d). although I agree with all that BGIF has said about the defense and replacing Te'o, KLM, and Zeke [let alone Danny], we STILL should be better than we are showing so far. Sheldon Day is very good. Collinsworth is, supposedly, very field smart. The rest of the returning stars are a year older --- they should have improved ... but, no. We seem to have gone backwards.

e). My, and practically every green-koolaid drinker's, optimism about this team was founded upon the belief that the defense would be one of the top-5 if not THE best defense in the country. So far, we're OK, but far from top-5. Why?

f). some of this is what BGIF has said... loss of great leadership. But I believe that it's "worse" than that. This is my very unpopular breakdown:
1]. secondary is flawed. NOT Keivaree Russell. That TD pass was as well defended as one could ask. The ball was placed preternaturally. Farley still takes the wrong road and isn't instinctive. Sometimes he looks great; sometimes.... BJ will be generally "good". Collinsworth will improve with reps. We need him for his brains.
2]. Linebacking isn't productive. Councell and Smith seem athletic and eager enough. So does Grace. So does Shembo. So, in their own strange way would Foxabreese if they were back to sharing WILL situationally. What's wrong??
3]. Nix is efforting his a$$ off; so is Kona. So also seems Day. Tuitt?? I swear he's taking plays off. Is he still sub-par health-wise and everyone's keeping it mum??

But none of that seems sufficient to explain our gap between last year's play and this. If it's not the players [so much], then what?

What if Saban showed the world how to scheme this team, and "we" cannot effectively adjust?? Every opponent has that tape. What if, despite Big Lou elevating his motor to Olympian proportions [I have never seen a man of his size hustle so much], the opposing OCs "see" the ways to neutralize what last year we did so well?? But why haven't WE adjusted??

On the surface it seems like we are trying to with the increased blitzing, but it doesn't seem to work. Why not??

There are coaches who coach a "pretty good" game, and will forever be only pretty good. There are coaches who coach a perfect "fixed" system --- they are the Watchmakers. They are remarkably good at systematizing something that if you are not extremely "ready" for it, "it" will beat you. The Great Clockwork defensive system is what Diaco makes. As Barrett Jones said: they are good because they're simple. But they're simple.

When opponents figure out Great Clocks, IF they have great personnel themselves, the Clocks will not keep good time. The Clockmaker must adjust. Our DC is young at this job; I don't think that he's yet up to it. [I have yet to see a really good adjustment to defensive problems until we have had a halftime to think about them]. Lots of DCs are this way... but they are not the elite DCs. I have watched VT for years. Budd Foster watches the first one or two series, and figures it out before halftime.

And... despite linebacker training, some DCs know how to scheme and time and disguise and change blitzes, and some haven't quite got it [yet]. Watching us, we ain't got it.... lots of big effort to little real effect.

This defense for whatever the reasons has not improved, AND the opposing OCs have done so. .... Very disillusioning. Very off-putting for enthusiasm for another great season. Where I felt that we'd control almost every game on the schedule due to a suffocating defense, now.............. hah!, we better pray that Tommy really shines. He's going to have to outscore a bunch of teams now.

Hey Mike, Great post! One of the things I missed saying the most, (to others too.)

I agree with you. It wasn't really the DB's. And it wasn't the D-line. I loved Tuitt's interception, but he didn't have one tackle. It wasn't Lewan. But the entire Michigan offensive line held. They had the whole game to figure that out. So I don't buy that one. It wasn't a great M-O-line. Some was the blitzing and schemes. I wish I had a dollar for every time I saw two from ND get tangled with each other while rushing. I would have enough to buy you a sarsaparilla!

It was the linebackers. Smith's freshmania was exploited. Do not hold that against him; can you imagine even playing in this big of game as a second game true freshman year? WOW! And he ended up with five tackles? WOW! Though he was often out of position, his speed was one of the few things that kept Devin Gardner honest during the evening. One play, when he ran Devin down, Devil looked twice an Jaylon's jersey number. So Jaylon was a freshmen. Counsell wasn't; neither were Fox, Calabrese, and Shembo. Who coaches the linebackers?

Finally, did you notice the pageantry with Gardner this week? I don't know if the TV caught it but they made a great pregame deal of UnReTirIng Tom Harmon's jersey for the rest of the season. With Devin Gardner you have a coaching staff basically saying, "We believe you can win the Heisman, here is all you need to do!" Where we got anyone pushing people to get better other than position competition? I see no guard installed at ND against complacency. That weakens men's legs more than women, doesn't it?
 

zemaniak

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Councell's arms are almost as long as mine


On a more serious note, as much as the O seems allergic to screen plays, on D i believed we were getting better at QB awareness ie phtting arms in the air when he's about to pass. Did not see much o that lately
 
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