Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

pkt77242

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Who said that if we like our insurance plans that we could keep them? Who was that nut? Who were the nuts that believed him? Let's face it, if Bachmann falls under the nut category, this President does as well.

Do you remember when he talked about giving a kid with asthma a breathalyzer...or when he talked about visitng 57 states...what a nut! I could go on and on with the nutty things that he's said...

Like your health care policy? You may be losing it: Associated Press - MSN Money

First off Obama was talking mostly about your insurance plan through your employer because that was the worry when the law was passed, that companies would drop their insurance plan.

Also misspeaking (saying breathalyzer instead of inhaler, etc) is very different from believing and speaking some of the batshit crazy things Bachmann does and did. This is great for the Republican party because she might have lost a very red district in the next election and now it is almost for sure going to stay in Republican hands.
 

IrishJayhawk

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First off Obama was talking mostly about your insurance plan through your employer because that was the worry when the law was passed, that companies would drop their insurance plan.

Also misspeaking (saying breathalyzer instead of inhaler, etc) is very different from believing and speaking some of the batshit crazy things Bachmann does and did. This is great for the Republican party because she might have lost a very red district in the next election and now it is almost for sure going to stay in Republican hands.

Yeah...misspeaking is not the same as being just plain stupid.
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
Doubt true free markets would lead to monopolies in most markets ( almost all who dont need any gov. regulation). I mean if it were to become a monopoly, and that monopoly turns to price gouging to raise profits, there should be a flood of competition.

(obvious eception is natural monopolies ie. electricity power or scarce ressources)

The reality is that its almost government that creates and enforces monopolies, im not saying that Bayer shouldnt be rewarded for developing life saving drugs (they should and are) but the constant creation and destruction of the free market should prevent the overlord type industries you fear. Barriers to entry are largely from the regulations in place.

I'm first in line to criticize government-installed corporatism. But, your post ignores the myriad monopolies the government had to destroy (see: Teddy Roosevelt). Regardless, when we fear monopolies we take our eyes off the ball; monopolies aren't problems or results: oligopolies are.

Simply economies of scale and the truest definition of capitalism tells you that the big will get bigger and the markets will usually bifurcate into a oligopoly dominating the market and niche small business. This is true in many industries today.

In a "true free market," which I think anyone would have trouble defining such a broad term, the first companies to vertically integrate, accumulate capital and standardize processes, and thus drop their price and destroy competition...win.

I mean come on, capitalism (i.e. using capital-intensive machinery/technology/processes) tells us practically by definition that the man with the most cash can invest enough and use economies of scale an standardization to have a lower price point than the small guy.

It will all lead to oligopolies and sometimes monopolies.
 

chicago51

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Who said that if we like our insurance plans that we could keep them? Who was that nut? Who were the nuts that believed him? Let's face it, if Bachmann falls under the nut category, this President does as well.

Do you remember when he talked about giving a kid with asthma a breathalyzer...or when he talked about visitng 57 states...what a nut! I could go on and on with the nutty things that he's said...

Like your health care policy? You may be losing it: Associated Press - MSN Money

The reason is probably because that plan didn't cover maternity or mental health which are now both required.

Now for employer plans employers can't provide insurance that cost more than 9.5 percent of their employees income. So yes the employer coverage is too expensive yes you could lose it.

Personally if I think the folks on the exchanges are getting the better end of the deal. Subsidies will make it so individuals and families at 400 percent of the poverty line or lower don't pay more than 8 percent of their income. So 400 percent for a family is just over 94k.

I don't know any 95k workers that don't have employer provided insurance. The one exception is self employed small business owners who will also be able to buy on the excahnge and starting 2014 get a 50 percent tax credit.

I would like to see the subsidies be a little bit adjusted so certain higher income individuals don't get hung out too much.

Most importantly I want to see how many choices and options are on the exchange. If there are 10 companies and 30 plans I'll be pretty satisfied if it is 3 companies given a government monopoly I'm going to have issues.
 
Last edited:

DSully1995

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I'm first in line to criticize government-installed corporatism. But, your post ignores the myriad monopolies the government had to destroy (see: Teddy Roosevelt). Regardless, when we fear monopolies we take our eyes off the ball; monopolies aren't problems or results: oligopolies are.

Simply economies of scale and the truest definition of capitalism tells you that the big will get bigger and the markets will usually bifurcate into a oligopoly dominating the market and niche small business. This is true in many industries today.

In a "true free market," which I think anyone would have trouble defining such a broad term, the first companies to vertically integrate, accumulate capital and standardize processes, and thus drop their price and destroy competition...win.

I mean come on, capitalism (i.e. using capital-intensive machinery/technology/processes) tells us practically by definition that the man with the most cash can invest enough and use economies of scale an standardization to have a lower price point than the small guy.

It will all lead to oligopolies and sometimes monopolies.

Oligopolies dont have to be bad, aslong as you dont have collusion the rules of the game still exist. The competition will still result in the best outcome for the consumer. Burger king, wendys mcdonalds are all massive companies, but they cant escape from the ramifications of raising prices (unilaterally), since the consumers will just got to the other branches
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
Oligopolies dont have to be bad, aslong as you dont have collusion the rules of the game still exist. The competition will still result in the best outcome for the consumer. Burger king, wendys mcdonalds are all massive companies, but they cant escape from the ramifications of raising prices (unilaterally), since the consumers will just got to the other branches

Oh I definitely agree.

But, as I've stated on here before, capitalism, and in part oligopolies, are replacing jobs with their efficiency at alarming rates and faster than we can find new (worthwhile) uses for spare human capital.
 

potownhero

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The reason is probably because that plan didn't cover maternity or mental health which are now both required.

But BO said I could keep it if I liked it. Right? So was it a lie?

What now? Can I keep it? I think we all know that the nutty President lied.
 

DSully1995

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Oh I definitely agree.

But, as I've stated on here before, capitalism, and in part oligopolies, are replacing jobs with their efficiency at alarming rates and faster than we can find new (worthwhile) uses for spare human capital.

you bring this up alot, so ill ask you this, wouldnt someone in the 70s say the same thing if you told them about the internet?(and everything else we have), do you think there is really an end scenario where only 10% of the pop can work?
 

chicago51

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I now no why no politician is taking credit. An article published this weekend in a NJ newspaper, the Daily Record, entitled "Toms River hospital lays off 68 workers" states:

Cuts to Medicare and the restructuring of hospital care resulting from the implementation of the Affordable Care Act were cited as the chief reasons positions were eliminated at Toms River Community Medical Center.

Not going to hear the Administration or Congress taking credit for deficit reduction as I am sure that these types of layoffs resulting from the ACA are not going to be limited to NJ. I also saw on the news last night that Oncologists are not treating some patience because the reimbursement under the ACA is too low. These patients will need to get their chemo treatments at hospitals at a great net expense to taxpayers. The fun is only beginning!

Yes I agree the debt is coming down way to fast and couldn't be done more idiotically.I

We need to worry about the economy now and make changes to the entitlements so they don't kill us and crowd out other investments later. We can make cuts to Social Security growth and means test Medicare not terms having it but in terms of premiums and deductibles and such. We can also negotiate lower drug costs. If we coupled that with the 30 percent for $1 million or more rule and limit deductions on high earners 28 percent I'd say that is a fair deal.

I would also raise the estate tax and close some of the corporate loopholes and try lower the corporate tax rate in a deficit neutral fashion.
 

chicago51

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But BO said I could keep it if I liked it. Right? So was it a lie?

What now? Can I keep it? I think we all know that the nutty President lied.

Obama has lied this nothing new if you follow politics. No just because they all lie doesn't make it right or okay.

I got my issues with the President myself in his handling of the whole financial sector.

The big thing for me on health care is how much choice is there going to be on the exchanges. I have heard some good things about California's exchange price wise but don't know much about selection it will have.

California's health-care exchange: Proof ObamaCare works?
 

chicago51

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Oh I definitely agree.

But, as I've stated on here before, capitalism, and in part oligopolies, are replacing jobs with their efficiency at alarming rates and faster than we can find new (worthwhile) uses for spare human capital.

How do you feel about shorter work weeks. Because efficiency is replacing jobs would it make sense to gradually over time decrease from a 40 hour work week to a shorter one? People working less hours would require the need for more workers in theory.
 

BobD

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From an interesting article on the Dalai Lama:

Wait, so in the past at some point in time everyone agreed on the definition of morality? It's only recently because of progressive thinkers and science that people have begun to disagree with what's right and wrong? My history books were all fcked up.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
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Wait, so in the past at some point in time everyone agreed on the definition of morality? It's only recently because of progressive thinkers and science that people have begun to disagree with what's right and wrong? My history books were all fcked up.

No. But for most of human history, everyone has agreed that morality is objective and knowable. It's only since the Enlightenment that moral relativism (i.e. nihilism) has crept in, and has since come to dominate Western culture.

Aristotle v. Nietzsche.
 

Old Man Mike

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I hate this thread [more simplistic statements about very complex realities per page than almost anything conceivable]. I am hoping that no one here is taking their stated viewpoints too seriously in their real lives nor when they have to interact with other members of our society. That said: a few more "turds for this punchbowl">

1). One of the most dangerously simplistic terms in modern times, used in wide-swinging swaths to condemn people of differing views, is "moral relativism". There is, doubtless, the possibility of defining this term so as to make discussion fruitful, but I believe it would take a monograph.

We all engage in something which COULD be called "moral relativism" constantly in our real world lives. This is because life is not able to be comprehensively described in all its complexities before moral choices are even made. There is no "catechism" big enough to cover the business of right living. And in fact GOD doesn't even want there to be.

How could one make such a bold statement? IF THERE WERE a Catechism of all right living, then the process of personal decision-making [willed right choices] loses a gigantic dimension of its free-will nature. All choice then becomes "black" and "white" and life becomes a much more robotic performance wherein actual thought/ meditation/ "soul-searching" is eliminated in any true personal-growth-oriented way.

This is something that not only all of us know about the complexity of our lives and decisions already, but that the legal system itself is based upon. From the beginning, from the Constitution to the latest small court ruling, law-makers of any intellectual stature have realized that any law written is likely to have honestly good reasons to be violated in its literal wording, any two laws are likely to someday conflict, and that unforeseen circumstances may even make some elements of law completely irrelevant, either in a given case or en toto.

I believe that all of these "situations" can be encompassed under a sloppy discussion of "moral relativism". Swatting anyone upside the head with a moral relativism charge without examining not only what one means exactly by the condemnation, but also examining the complexities faced by the condemned individual in real life, seems recklessly judgmental. A certain very Big Person once said about such complexities: Judge not, lest you be judged.

The basis for morality is not LAW but law. Laws set strong reminders and guidelines which should require the churchgoer or the citizen to take the existence and the thought behind those laws into account before acting. But actual moral choice occurs within the context of the whole reality within which the chooser finds oneself. { the most obvious extremes are those which seem to require killing somebody. Both Church and State allow that violation of literal law due to --- "moral relativism"? } We have judges and juries for a reason. They might themselves not function properly, but the concept is sound. Even Plato could not fully comprehend The Good, The True, and The Beautiful [the alleged Archons of a basis for Right Living]. Rather than every culture agreeing to a universal ground of perfection, none do. The closest we come is that Love is Good, and The Golden Rule a good idea.

2). On capitalism and monopoly: Buster is basically correct here. The counterargument that if local entrepreneurs abuse their capitalistic power, others will rise up to thwart them via competition might apply to a very limited set of commercial enterprises, but not the majority. Any "industry" which requires a large infrastructure to create whatever it sells is invulnerable to the grassroots guys suddenly getting fired up and outcompeting them. AND most of the systems within which we citizens find ourselves embedded are of these gigantic superstructures and highly invested technological types. Joe-in-the-garage is not going to oust Exxon; even one hundred Joes are not.

The only areas wherein the "oh competitors will rise up" concept might work are those operating at small, community-sized scale. One could imagine a local community food plan kicking out the monstersized foodchains/ groceries, but, even there, not if the community insisted on bananas, coffee, everybody's-got-a-burger, etc. The "hated" government knows this well, and that is why the monstersized organizations which control necessities like power and water are tightly constrained. If food availability began to go too strongly that way, and if localities refused to shrink their menus to more localized foods, the government will have to constrain these giants too --- in anti-monopolistic anti-price-fixing ways.

Arguments that everything can be fixed by "market-forces" is a delusion now only held by certain business schools and persons working in wealth-accumulation fields. That is a world as they want it to be but is not. An example: this theory only works if consumers know enough about the choices that they make and that the commodity that the decision rests upon is renewable or precisely replaceable. In our modern economy none of that is true.

As to knowledge: the theory looks at only the moment of customer choice. Can I get what I want at the value that I must pay now? In the extremely fast high-heat global economy, the natural resource base of many consumables is "harvested" and "in the production pipeline" in vast quantities, and impacts, far beyond the ken of the customer as far as future consequences [even to himself], and often out of control of the companies selling the product. Example: certain food harvesting has so many semi-independent operating pieces in the system that something at the grassroots can permanently damage the whole pipeline later due to overuse [think biology].

As to overharvesting: we know that even minerals let alone things like shrimp, swordfish, passenger pigeons etc can be exploited to the point of extirpation if not utter elimination. The point of this is: bigness tends to have big momentum. Big momentum resting on a limited resource forces, at a minimum, monopoly of the dwindling resource, and at worst the extinction of it. When "rare earths" run out, there are no handy equivalents "out there" to replace them with. When passenger pigeons are shot down to micro-numbers, there are no other things just like them. A carp is not a swordfish. Iron is not Cerium.

The market-forces fantasy depends by its own admission that the consumers will make at least statistically wise choices as to the consequences for their own lives. That possibly might have worked at the 1800s village cornerstore level but we're so far out of those community-scale controls that the maintenance of the fallacy is a form of insanity.

............. books have been written on these things. IE will be inadequate to even intelligently discuss them.
 

MJ12666

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How do you feel about shorter work weeks. Because efficiency is replacing jobs would it make sense to gradually over time decrease from a 40 hour work week to a shorter one? People working less hours would require the need for more workers in theory.

Do you really believe this or are you joking?
 

NDFANnSouthWest

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In my industry the below is happening

"The factory of the future will have two employees: a man and a dog. The man's job will be to feed the dog. The dog's job will be to prevent the man from touching any of the automated equipment."

-- Warren G. Bennis
 

Bluto

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I hate this thread [more simplistic statements about very complex realities per page than almost anything conceivable]. I am hoping that no one here is taking their stated viewpoints too seriously in their real lives nor when they have to interact with other members of our society. That said: a few more "turds for this punchbowl">

1). One of the most dangerously simplistic terms in modern times, used in wide-swinging swaths to condemn people of differing views, is "moral relativism". There is, doubtless, the possibility of defining this term so as to make discussion fruitful, but I believe it would take a monograph.

We all engage in something which COULD be called "moral relativism" constantly in our real world lives. This is because life is not able to be comprehensively described in all its complexities before moral choices are even made. There is no "catechism" big enough to cover the business of right living. And in fact GOD doesn't even want there to be.

How could one make such a bold statement? IF THERE WERE a Catechism of all right living, then the process of personal decision-making [willed right choices] loses a gigantic dimension of its free-will nature. All choice then becomes "black" and "white" and life becomes a much more robotic performance wherein actual thought/ meditation/ "soul-searching" is eliminated in any true personal-growth-oriented way.

This is something that not only all of us know about the complexity of our lives and decisions already, but that the legal system itself is based upon. From the beginning, from the Constitution to the latest small court ruling, law-makers of any intellectual stature have realized that any law written is likely to have honestly good reasons to be violated in its literal wording, any two laws are likely to someday conflict, and that unforeseen circumstances may even make some elements of law completely irrelevant, either in a given case or en toto.

I believe that all of these "situations" can be encompassed under a sloppy discussion of "moral relativism". Swatting anyone upside the head with a moral relativism charge without examining not only what one means exactly by the condemnation, but also examining the complexities faced by the condemned individual in real life, seems recklessly judgmental. A certain very Big Person once said about such complexities: Judge not, lest you be judged.

The basis for morality is not LAW but law. Laws set strong reminders and guidelines which should require the churchgoer or the citizen to take the existence and the thought behind those laws into account before acting. But actual moral choice occurs within the context of the whole reality within which the chooser finds oneself. { the most obvious extremes are those which seem to require killing somebody. Both Church and State allow that violation of literal law due to --- "moral relativism"? } We have judges and juries for a reason. They might themselves not function properly, but the concept is sound. Even Plato could not fully comprehend The Good, The True, and The Beautiful [the alleged Archons of a basis for Right Living]. Rather than every culture agreeing to a universal ground of perfection, none do. The closest we come is that Love is Good, and The Golden Rule a good idea.

2). On capitalism and monopoly: Buster is basically correct here. The counterargument that if local entrepreneurs abuse their capitalistic power, others will rise up to thwart them via competition might apply to a very limited set of commercial enterprises, but not the majority. Any "industry" which requires a large infrastructure to create whatever it sells is invulnerable to the grassroots guys suddenly getting fired up and outcompeting them. AND most of the systems within which we citizens find ourselves embedded are of these gigantic superstructures and highly invested technological types. Joe-in-the-garage is not going to oust Exxon; even one hundred Joes are not.

The only areas wherein the "oh competitors will rise up" concept might work are those operating at small, community-sized scale. One could imagine a local community food plan kicking out the monstersized foodchains/ groceries, but, even there, not if the community insisted on bananas, coffee, everybody's-got-a-burger, etc. The "hated" government knows this well, and that is why the monstersized organizations which control necessities like power and water are tightly constrained. If food availability began to go too strongly that way, and if localities refused to shrink their menus to more localized foods, the government will have to constrain these giants too --- in anti-monopolistic anti-price-fixing ways.

Arguments that everything can be fixed by "market-forces" is a delusion now only held by certain business schools and persons working in wealth-accumulation fields. That is a world as they want it to be but is not. An example: this theory only works if consumers know enough about the choices that they make and that the commodity that the decision rests upon is renewable or precisely replaceable. In our modern economy none of that is true.

As to knowledge: the theory looks at only the moment of customer choice. Can I get what I want at the value that I must pay now? In the extremely fast high-heat global economy, the natural resource base of many consumables is "harvested" and "in the production pipeline" in vast quantities, and impacts, far beyond the ken of the customer as far as future consequences [even to himself], and often out of control of the companies selling the product. Example: certain food harvesting has so many semi-independent operating pieces in the system that something at the grassroots can permanently damage the whole pipeline later due to overuse [think biology].

As to overharvesting: we know that even minerals let alone things like shrimp, swordfish, passenger pigeons etc can be exploited to the point of extirpation if not utter elimination. The point of this is: bigness tends to have big momentum. Big momentum resting on a limited resource forces, at a minimum, monopoly of the dwindling resource, and at worst the extinction of it. When "rare earths" run out, there are no handy equivalents "out there" to replace them with. When passenger pigeons are shot down to micro-numbers, there are no other things just like them. A carp is not a swordfish. Iron is not Cerium.

The market-forces fantasy depends by its own admission that the consumers will make at least statistically wise choices as to the consequences for their own lives. That possibly might have worked at the 1800s village cornerstore level but we're so far out of those community-scale controls that the maintenance of the fallacy is a form of insanity.

............. books have been written on these things. IE will be inadequate to even intelligently discuss them.

Good post.
 

Black Irish

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............. books have been written on these things. IE will be inadequate to even intelligently discuss them.

Is this because of the limitations of the format? Are we not learning anything through the rhetorical back-and-forth, even if it gets heated and repetitive sometimes?
 

Old Man Mike

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It is because of the limitations of the format. Regarding serious and very complex issues of any kind, there is extreme probability of shallow, too-quick assertion not supported by appropriate shades and perspective. This is intellectually dangerous and rife with errors especially of misinterpretation.

The dichotomy between the "format" limitations concern and are-we-learning-anything concern is false. It is precisely because of the limitations of the former that one is likely to come away from such discussion with more error and assumption in one's head than when one entered it.

The value of any such discussion would, rather, be to highlight a concern without pontification of strong conclusions, and to direct the reader to resources as objective as possible, the reading and thinking upon which would have a chance to produce more multidimensional and intellectually defensible personal positions.
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
In my industry the below is happening

"The factory of the future will have two employees: a man and a dog. The man's job will be to feed the dog. The dog's job will be to prevent the man from touching any of the automated equipment."

-- Warren G. Bennis

Oh my ****ing god that is perfect.
 

chicago51

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Do you really believe this or are you joking?

Why not have shorter work weeks assuming you could account for loss in pay from cut hours? A 20 percent unemployment is realistic 50-60 years from now perhaps sooner. The service industry isn't big enough to support the full employment of the country at least not on 40 hour weeks. Would it be better to have a high unemployment and 1/5 of the population not working or have low unemployment and more leisure time for everyone?

If wages had kept going up with productivity we would already be able to cut down on hours without much of an issue. The drawback is they haven't but that is another issue.

Edit: Wanted to add this

productivity-wages.jpg


Basically if wages had kept paced with productivity like it had in the past we could work easily go to a 30 hour work week, have full employment, and would have better standard of living than we do now. There are some good things about free trade but basically when Nixon dramatically lowered import tariffs it put American workers in a global bidding war in terms of labor cost. Sure stuff cost a little bit less but it hurt wages in the process.
 
Last edited:

GoIrish41

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I hate this thread [more simplistic statements about very complex realities per page than almost anything conceivable]. I am hoping that no one here is taking their stated viewpoints too seriously in their real lives nor when they have to interact with other members of our society. That said: a few more "turds for this punchbowl">

1). One of the most dangerously simplistic terms in modern times, used in wide-swinging swaths to condemn people of differing views, is "moral relativism". There is, doubtless, the possibility of defining this term so as to make discussion fruitful, but I believe it would take a monograph.

We all engage in something which COULD be called "moral relativism" constantly in our real world lives. This is because life is not able to be comprehensively described in all its complexities before moral choices are even made. There is no "catechism" big enough to cover the business of right living. And in fact GOD doesn't even want there to be.

How could one make such a bold statement? IF THERE WERE a Catechism of all right living, then the process of personal decision-making [willed right choices] loses a gigantic dimension of its free-will nature. All choice then becomes "black" and "white" and life becomes a much more robotic performance wherein actual thought/ meditation/ "soul-searching" is eliminated in any true personal-growth-oriented way.

This is something that not only all of us know about the complexity of our lives and decisions already, but that the legal system itself is based upon. From the beginning, from the Constitution to the latest small court ruling, law-makers of any intellectual stature have realized that any law written is likely to have honestly good reasons to be violated in its literal wording, any two laws are likely to someday conflict, and that unforeseen circumstances may even make some elements of law completely irrelevant, either in a given case or en toto.

I believe that all of these "situations" can be encompassed under a sloppy discussion of "moral relativism". Swatting anyone upside the head with a moral relativism charge without examining not only what one means exactly by the condemnation, but also examining the complexities faced by the condemned individual in real life, seems recklessly judgmental. A certain very Big Person once said about such complexities: Judge not, lest you be judged.

The basis for morality is not LAW but law. Laws set strong reminders and guidelines which should require the churchgoer or the citizen to take the existence and the thought behind those laws into account before acting. But actual moral choice occurs within the context of the whole reality within which the chooser finds oneself. { the most obvious extremes are those which seem to require killing somebody. Both Church and State allow that violation of literal law due to --- "moral relativism"? } We have judges and juries for a reason. They might themselves not function properly, but the concept is sound. Even Plato could not fully comprehend The Good, The True, and The Beautiful [the alleged Archons of a basis for Right Living]. Rather than every culture agreeing to a universal ground of perfection, none do. The closest we come is that Love is Good, and The Golden Rule a good idea.

2). On capitalism and monopoly: Buster is basically correct here. The counterargument that if local entrepreneurs abuse their capitalistic power, others will rise up to thwart them via competition might apply to a very limited set of commercial enterprises, but not the majority. Any "industry" which requires a large infrastructure to create whatever it sells is invulnerable to the grassroots guys suddenly getting fired up and outcompeting them. AND most of the systems within which we citizens find ourselves embedded are of these gigantic superstructures and highly invested technological types. Joe-in-the-garage is not going to oust Exxon; even one hundred Joes are not.

The only areas wherein the "oh competitors will rise up" concept might work are those operating at small, community-sized scale. One could imagine a local community food plan kicking out the monstersized foodchains/ groceries, but, even there, not if the community insisted on bananas, coffee, everybody's-got-a-burger, etc. The "hated" government knows this well, and that is why the monstersized organizations which control necessities like power and water are tightly constrained. If food availability began to go too strongly that way, and if localities refused to shrink their menus to more localized foods, the government will have to constrain these giants too --- in anti-monopolistic anti-price-fixing ways.

Arguments that everything can be fixed by "market-forces" is a delusion now only held by certain business schools and persons working in wealth-accumulation fields. That is a world as they want it to be but is not. An example: this theory only works if consumers know enough about the choices that they make and that the commodity that the decision rests upon is renewable or precisely replaceable. In our modern economy none of that is true.

As to knowledge: the theory looks at only the moment of customer choice. Can I get what I want at the value that I must pay now? In the extremely fast high-heat global economy, the natural resource base of many consumables is "harvested" and "in the production pipeline" in vast quantities, and impacts, far beyond the ken of the customer as far as future consequences [even to himself], and often out of control of the companies selling the product. Example: certain food harvesting has so many semi-independent operating pieces in the system that something at the grassroots can permanently damage the whole pipeline later due to overuse [think biology].

As to overharvesting: we know that even minerals let alone things like shrimp, swordfish, passenger pigeons etc can be exploited to the point of extirpation if not utter elimination. The point of this is: bigness tends to have big momentum. Big momentum resting on a limited resource forces, at a minimum, monopoly of the dwindling resource, and at worst the extinction of it. When "rare earths" run out, there are no handy equivalents "out there" to replace them with. When passenger pigeons are shot down to micro-numbers, there are no other things just like them. A carp is not a swordfish. Iron is not Cerium.

The market-forces fantasy depends by its own admission that the consumers will make at least statistically wise choices as to the consequences for their own lives. That possibly might have worked at the 1800s village cornerstore level but we're so far out of those community-scale controls that the maintenance of the fallacy is a form of insanity.

............. books have been written on these things. IE will be inadequate to even intelligently discuss them.

this is a fantastic post.
 

Ndaccountant

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I hate this thread [more simplistic statements about very complex realities per page than almost anything conceivable]. I am hoping that no one here is taking their stated viewpoints too seriously in their real lives nor when they have to interact with other members of our society. That said: a few more "turds for this punchbowl">

1). One of the most dangerously simplistic terms in modern times, used in wide-swinging swaths to condemn people of differing views, is "moral relativism". There is, doubtless, the possibility of defining this term so as to make discussion fruitful, but I believe it would take a monograph.

We all engage in something which COULD be called "moral relativism" constantly in our real world lives. This is because life is not able to be comprehensively described in all its complexities before moral choices are even made. There is no "catechism" big enough to cover the business of right living. And in fact GOD doesn't even want there to be.

How could one make such a bold statement? IF THERE WERE a Catechism of all right living, then the process of personal decision-making [willed right choices] loses a gigantic dimension of its free-will nature. All choice then becomes "black" and "white" and life becomes a much more robotic performance wherein actual thought/ meditation/ "soul-searching" is eliminated in any true personal-growth-oriented way.

This is something that not only all of us know about the complexity of our lives and decisions already, but that the legal system itself is based upon. From the beginning, from the Constitution to the latest small court ruling, law-makers of any intellectual stature have realized that any law written is likely to have honestly good reasons to be violated in its literal wording, any two laws are likely to someday conflict, and that unforeseen circumstances may even make some elements of law completely irrelevant, either in a given case or en toto.

I believe that all of these "situations" can be encompassed under a sloppy discussion of "moral relativism". Swatting anyone upside the head with a moral relativism charge without examining not only what one means exactly by the condemnation, but also examining the complexities faced by the condemned individual in real life, seems recklessly judgmental. A certain very Big Person once said about such complexities: Judge not, lest you be judged.

The basis for morality is not LAW but law. Laws set strong reminders and guidelines which should require the churchgoer or the citizen to take the existence and the thought behind those laws into account before acting. But actual moral choice occurs within the context of the whole reality within which the chooser finds oneself. { the most obvious extremes are those which seem to require killing somebody. Both Church and State allow that violation of literal law due to --- "moral relativism"? } We have judges and juries for a reason. They might themselves not function properly, but the concept is sound. Even Plato could not fully comprehend The Good, The True, and The Beautiful [the alleged Archons of a basis for Right Living]. Rather than every culture agreeing to a universal ground of perfection, none do. The closest we come is that Love is Good, and The Golden Rule a good idea.

2). On capitalism and monopoly: Buster is basically correct here. The counterargument that if local entrepreneurs abuse their capitalistic power, others will rise up to thwart them via competition might apply to a very limited set of commercial enterprises, but not the majority. Any "industry" which requires a large infrastructure to create whatever it sells is invulnerable to the grassroots guys suddenly getting fired up and outcompeting them. AND most of the systems within which we citizens find ourselves embedded are of these gigantic superstructures and highly invested technological types. Joe-in-the-garage is not going to oust Exxon; even one hundred Joes are not.

The only areas wherein the "oh competitors will rise up" concept might work are those operating at small, community-sized scale. One could imagine a local community food plan kicking out the monstersized foodchains/ groceries, but, even there, not if the community insisted on bananas, coffee, everybody's-got-a-burger, etc. The "hated" government knows this well, and that is why the monstersized organizations which control necessities like power and water are tightly constrained. If food availability began to go too strongly that way, and if localities refused to shrink their menus to more localized foods, the government will have to constrain these giants too --- in anti-monopolistic anti-price-fixing ways.

Arguments that everything can be fixed by "market-forces" is a delusion now only held by certain business schools and persons working in wealth-accumulation fields. That is a world as they want it to be but is not. An example: this theory only works if consumers know enough about the choices that they make and that the commodity that the decision rests upon is renewable or precisely replaceable. In our modern economy none of that is true.
As to knowledge: the theory looks at only the moment of customer choice. Can I get what I want at the value that I must pay now? In the extremely fast high-heat global economy, the natural resource base of many consumables is "harvested" and "in the production pipeline" in vast quantities, and impacts, far beyond the ken of the customer as far as future consequences [even to himself], and often out of control of the companies selling the product. Example: certain food harvesting has so many semi-independent operating pieces in the system that something at the grassroots can permanently damage the whole pipeline later due to overuse [think biology].

As to overharvesting: we know that even minerals let alone things like shrimp, swordfish, passenger pigeons etc can be exploited to the point of extirpation if not utter elimination. The point of this is: bigness tends to have big momentum. Big momentum resting on a limited resource forces, at a minimum, monopoly of the dwindling resource, and at worst the extinction of it. When "rare earths" run out, there are no handy equivalents "out there" to replace them with. When passenger pigeons are shot down to micro-numbers, there are no other things just like them. A carp is not a swordfish. Iron is not Cerium.

The market-forces fantasy depends by its own admission that the consumers will make at least statistically wise choices as to the consequences for their own lives. That possibly might have worked at the 1800s village cornerstore level but we're so far out of those community-scale controls that the maintenance of the fallacy is a form of insanity.

............. books have been written on these things. IE will be inadequate to even intelligently discuss them.

I would like to know where you stand on the 3D printers, laser cutters, open source and the desktop fabrication movement that is just starting.

I believe until now, consumer choice was limited to what companies were willing to produce. What companies were willing to produce depended upon mass customer needs. As such, individual needs were crowded out by collective needs. This worked really well for large companies given they controlled it all. They controlled the assets, the controlled raw materials, financing, IP etc. The whole idea of coprorations was the ability to pool resources to enable more efficent production & design, thus freeing up resources to focus on other things. A byproduct of this turned out to be asset domination which controlled consumers options and limited small players from entering the market.

Fast forward to now, where we are just starting to see the benefits of technology. My neighbor just last week "made" memporial day plates for a BBQ with his 3D printer. He simply purchased the printer and there were thousands of designs he could download. He isn't unique either. Look at the growth of Techshop and what people are able to do there. Think of Local Motors and the fact that people are designing their own car with OTS parts. The opportunity for individuals to now control their needs is quickly accelerating. There is a tremendous growth opportunity for individualism in the future. The power will be with the people since they will have everything they need at their fingertips.

Up until this point in time, niche goods were impossible to find. Then Amazon happened and look at the vast products offered. The desktop fabrication movement will now allow for more people to create niche goods and even make goods for their own personal consumption. Of course large companies will still exist, but the power they have will be diminished given the increase in open source and availability of technology.
 

BobD

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I hate this thread [more simplistic statements about very complex realities per page than almost anything conceivable]. I am hoping that no one here is taking their stated viewpoints too seriously in their real lives nor when they have to interact with other members of our society. That said: a few more "turds for this punchbowl">

1). One of the most dangerously simplistic terms in modern times, used in wide-swinging swaths to condemn people of differing views, is "moral relativism". There is, doubtless, the possibility of defining this term so as to make discussion fruitful, but I believe it would take a monograph.

We all engage in something which COULD be called "moral relativism" constantly in our real world lives. This is because life is not able to be comprehensively described in all its complexities before moral choices are even made. There is no "catechism" big enough to cover the business of right living. And in fact GOD doesn't even want there to be.

How could one make such a bold statement? IF THERE WERE a Catechism of all right living, then the process of personal decision-making [willed right choices] loses a gigantic dimension of its free-will nature. All choice then becomes "black" and "white" and life becomes a much more robotic performance wherein actual thought/ meditation/ "soul-searching" is eliminated in any true personal-growth-oriented way.

This is something that not only all of us know about the complexity of our lives and decisions already, but that the legal system itself is based upon. From the beginning, from the Constitution to the latest small court ruling, law-makers of any intellectual stature have realized that any law written is likely to have honestly good reasons to be violated in its literal wording, any two laws are likely to someday conflict, and that unforeseen circumstances may even make some elements of law completely irrelevant, either in a given case or en toto.

I believe that all of these "situations" can be encompassed under a sloppy discussion of "moral relativism". Swatting anyone upside the head with a moral relativism charge without examining not only what one means exactly by the condemnation, but also examining the complexities faced by the condemned individual in real life, seems recklessly judgmental. A certain very Big Person once said about such complexities: Judge not, lest you be judged.

The basis for morality is not LAW but law. Laws set strong reminders and guidelines which should require the churchgoer or the citizen to take the existence and the thought behind those laws into account before acting. But actual moral choice occurs within the context of the whole reality within which the chooser finds oneself. { the most obvious extremes are those which seem to require killing somebody. Both Church and State allow that violation of literal law due to --- "moral relativism"? } We have judges and juries for a reason. They might themselves not function properly, but the concept is sound. Even Plato could not fully comprehend The Good, The True, and The Beautiful [the alleged Archons of a basis for Right Living]. Rather than every culture agreeing to a universal ground of perfection, none do. The closest we come is that Love is Good, and The Golden Rule a good idea.

2). On capitalism and monopoly: Buster is basically correct here. The counterargument that if local entrepreneurs abuse their capitalistic power, others will rise up to thwart them via competition might apply to a very limited set of commercial enterprises, but not the majority. Any "industry" which requires a large infrastructure to create whatever it sells is invulnerable to the grassroots guys suddenly getting fired up and outcompeting them. AND most of the systems within which we citizens find ourselves embedded are of these gigantic superstructures and highly invested technological types. Joe-in-the-garage is not going to oust Exxon; even one hundred Joes are not.

The only areas wherein the "oh competitors will rise up" concept might work are those operating at small, community-sized scale. One could imagine a local community food plan kicking out the monstersized foodchains/ groceries, but, even there, not if the community insisted on bananas, coffee, everybody's-got-a-burger, etc. The "hated" government knows this well, and that is why the monstersized organizations which control necessities like power and water are tightly constrained. If food availability began to go too strongly that way, and if localities refused to shrink their menus to more localized foods, the government will have to constrain these giants too --- in anti-monopolistic anti-price-fixing ways.

Arguments that everything can be fixed by "market-forces" is a delusion now only held by certain business schools and persons working in wealth-accumulation fields. That is a world as they want it to be but is not. An example: this theory only works if consumers know enough about the choices that they make and that the commodity that the decision rests upon is renewable or precisely replaceable. In our modern economy none of that is true.

As to knowledge: the theory looks at only the moment of customer choice. Can I get what I want at the value that I must pay now? In the extremely fast high-heat global economy, the natural resource base of many consumables is "harvested" and "in the production pipeline" in vast quantities, and impacts, far beyond the ken of the customer as far as future consequences [even to himself], and often out of control of the companies selling the product. Example: certain food harvesting has so many semi-independent operating pieces in the system that something at the grassroots can permanently damage the whole pipeline later due to overuse [think biology].

As to overharvesting: we know that even minerals let alone things like shrimp, swordfish, passenger pigeons etc can be exploited to the point of extirpation if not utter elimination. The point of this is: bigness tends to have big momentum. Big momentum resting on a limited resource forces, at a minimum, monopoly of the dwindling resource, and at worst the extinction of it. When "rare earths" run out, there are no handy equivalents "out there" to replace them with. When passenger pigeons are shot down to micro-numbers, there are no other things just like them. A carp is not a swordfish. Iron is not Cerium.

The market-forces fantasy depends by its own admission that the consumers will make at least statistically wise choices as to the consequences for their own lives. That possibly might have worked at the 1800s village cornerstore level but we're so far out of those community-scale controls that the maintenance of the fallacy is a form of insanity.

............. books have been written on these things. IE will be inadequate to even intelligently discuss them.

I wonder if EG was caught plagiarizing one of OMMs posts?

Great post!
 

Whiskeyjack

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............. books have been written on these things. IE will be inadequate to even intelligently discuss them.

If everyone approaches this thread with some humility, surely the conversations we're having here are more productive than the hand-wringing going on elsewhere on the site, no?

1). One of the most dangerously simplistic terms in modern times, used in wide-swinging swaths to condemn people of differing views, is "moral relativism". There is, doubtless, the possibility of defining this term so as to make discussion fruitful, but I believe it would take a monograph.

I certainly didn't intend to dismiss BobD's point as "moral relativism"; only that the existence of objective morality is a separate argument from disagreements as to what that morality looks like, or the subjectivity of sin. Your post seems mostly addressed to the latter two points, which I didn't intend to argue.

My point is that the core assumption of liberal philosophy, that everything revolves around the autonomous individual, is inherently hostile to the concept of objective truth; thus the steady dechristianization of the Western world since the Enlightenment. Universal morality means one isn't at liberty to indulge every appetite. The end goal of the modern liberal welfare state is precisely to liberate individuals from virtually all forms of restraint-- economic, cultural, etc.-- and in the process, it crushes all those intermediate social structures that used to have primacy in daily human life-- family, neighborhood, church, voluntary organizations, etc.

It's a real challenge for conservatives and religious people, because the culture is intrinsically hostile to their belief system. We've inherited the language of Christian morality, but the Christian metaphysics that supported it for hundreds of years has been discarded. That's why Natural Law arguments are utterly unpersuasive these days; without a common belief in objective truth, there's no way to reach the other side.

Moving on, this brief AmCon post post sums up my politics pretty well:

My second steady commitment is to the principle of subsidiarity. I believe that almost all of our social evils and shortcomings can be handled better by small, local organizations and empowered persons than by national institutions or for that matter even state-level institutions. There is no question that local communities can be cruel and indifferent to sufferings in their midst, but they are also more subject to shame and other forms of correction than high-level political systems. They can be more easily altered, turned, reformed. A great deal of suffering in America today is caused by the evacuation of intermediary structures: the church, the family, voluntary organizations. These intermediary structures are in desperate need of renewal and that can only happen if there is a systematic shift of power, wealth, and influence from state and national governments to local units. Among my chief teachers on this matter is Robert Nisbet, and another is Patrick Deneen, so let me cite the latter writing about the former here and here. Nisbet himself simply identified conservatism with this tendency: “The essence of this body of ideas is the protection of the social order — family, neighborhood, local community, and region foremost — from the ravishments of the centralized political state.”

...

Our work, it seems to me, consists in what Plato called anamnesis — the defeat of forgetting. We cannot ask young people to live as we lived or to value what we valued. But we can encourage them to see the point of how we lived, and to recognize that freedom without responsibility is, in the end, an empty asset. We can tell them stories of the old virtues, and enlarge their sympathies toward a world in which suffering and sacrifice were not the purely negative things that they are represented to be by the consumer culture but an immovable part of any lasting happiness. Our task, in other words, is now less political than cultural — an education of the sympathies, which requires from us virtues (such as imagination, creativity, and a respect for high culture) that have a diminishing place in the world of politics.

And here's an interesting post on class war:

The culture wars that have convulsed America since the sixties are best understood as a form of class warfare, in which the enlightened elite (as it thinks of itself) seeks not so much to impose its values on the majority (a majority perceived as incorrigibly racist, sexist, provincial, and xenophobic), much less to persuade the majority by means of rational public debate, as to create parallel or “alternative” institutions in which it will be no longer be necessary to confront the unenlightened at all.
 

Old Man Mike

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To Whiskey [my favorite IE colleague].... much better steps along the forest path. Still, this is a conversation requiring many hours of attention. And, yes, when humility is involved [punctuated by self-imposed remarks about the firmness of one's own remarks], such discussions can be much better than typical non-football IE fare.

To the accountant: this is why I didn't want to get involved. Another in an endless procession of specific questions requiring monograph answers. You are an intelligent guy, so I am lumbering you with the meditation that "products" involving the transfer of information across nearly free facilitating systems differ wildly in their relationship to individual entrepreneur creators from industries involving mass material goods and global vertical infrastructure {upon which all the rest of this depends}.
 

Bluto

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If everyone approaches this thread with some humility, surely the conversations we're having here are more productive than the hand-wringing going on elsewhere on the site, no?



I certainly didn't intend to dismiss BobD's point as "moral relativism"; only that the existence of objective morality is a separate argument from disagreements as to what that morality looks like, or the subjectivity of sin. Your post seems mostly addressed to the latter two points, which I didn't intend to argue.

My point is that the core assumption of liberal philosophy, that everything revolves around the autonomous individual, is inherently hostile to the concept of objective truth; thus the steady dechristianization of the Western world since the Enlightenment. Universal morality means one isn't at liberty to indulge every appetite. The end goal of the modern liberal welfare state is precisely to liberate individuals from virtually all forms of restraint-- economic, cultural, etc.-- and in the process, it crushes all those intermediate social structures that used to have primacy in daily human life-- family, neighborhood, church, voluntary organizations, etc.

It's a real challenge for conservatives and religious people, because the culture is intrinsically hostile to their belief system. We've inherited the language of Christian morality, but the Christian metaphysics that supported it for hundreds of years has been discarded. That's why Natural Law arguments are utterly unpersuasive these days; without a common belief in objective truth, there's no way to reach the other side.

Moving on, this brief AmCon post post sums up my politics pretty well:



And here's an interesting post on class war:

That quote and article on class warfare misses the mark big time in my opinion. It was not and has never been the enlightened elites trying to push some big agenda in terms of class struggles that has fueld class warfare as I understand it. There have been specific cultural issues that have been championed by the enlightened class, but where things got crazy in the 60's was when this agenda of cultural and racial equality caused friction within the working class and class based organizations that should have been supporting each other. The perfect example that I saw first hand as a kid was "Teamster goons" beating up farmworkers who wanted to organize under the United Farm Workers banner. Essentially members of the working class at each others throats with one side working at the behest of management. This phenomenon is often referred to as the "great backlash" where white, working class individuals begin to embrace a more "conservative"social agenda along with a much more "liberal" economic agenda that in turn lead to the Republicans developing the "southern strategy" and culminated in the election of Ronald Reagan. I think liberals blew it big time by adandoning working class whites and belittling their concerns but at the same time there was a good deal of racism (institutional and otherwise) that drove this.

To wit, my "core liberal philosophy" revolves around the individuals conscious responsibility to the collective. The individualistic philosophy you describe sounds more like something Ayn Rand would espouse and the goal of the liberal agenda as I see it is not to relieve one of individual responsibility but to create a system that provides much more equitable access to opportunity. Corporate capitalism has done more to undermine and destroy those communal values you describe than any "liberal" policy I can think of. Frankly this pro coporate anti working class agenda is exactly what "white workin class America" has been voting for and supporting and has given us Citizens United, NAFTA and a host of other bad policies that have continued to concentrate wealth and power upwards. Anyhow, don't worry us Mexicans are gonna step in and save the day yet again. Lol.

In all seriousness if you are interested in class, power and culture check out Pierre Bourdieu
 
Last edited:

Whiskeyjack

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I'd be fine just reading conversations between OMM and Whiskey.

You're not slouch yourself, sir.

That quote and article on class warfare misses the mark big time in my opinion. It was not and has never been the enlightened elites trying to push some big agenda in terms of class struggles that has fueld class warfare as I understand it. There have been specific cultural issues that have been championed by the enlightened class, but where things got crazy in the 60's was when this agenda of cultural and racial equality caused friction within the working class and class based organizations that should have been supporting each other. The perfect example that I saw first hand as a kid was "Teamster goons" beating up farmworkers who wanted to organize under the United Farm Workers banner. Essentially members of the working class at each others throats with one side working at the behest of management. This phenomenon is often referred to as the "great backlash" where white, working class individuals begin to embrace a more "conservative" agenda, allowed the Rupublicams to develop the "southern strategy" and culminated in the election of Ronald Reagan. I think liberals blew it big time by adandoning working class whites and belittling their concerns but at the same time there was a good deal of racism (institutional and otherwise) that drove this.

Did you read the blog post? It's very short. The author's point is that, rather than impressing its values on the lower 98% (either through force or persuasion), the American elite has instead opted to create a completely separate and parallel set of institutions which has insulated it from the problems faced by the rest of the country. Nearly 20 years later, I can't say I disagree with him.

Anyhow, my "core liberal philosophy" revolves around the individuals conscious responsibility to the collective.

Could you describe that for me? Aside from: (1) supporting an impersonal welfare state through taxes; and (2) avoiding doing harm to others, what does liberal philosophy claim is owed to one's neighbor? And to be clear, when I say "liberal", I'm speaking philosophically (Hobbes, Locke, etc.) and not politically.

The individualistic philosophy you describe sounds more like something Ayn Rand would espouse

Libertarianism and Progressivism mostly share the same ends. They just disagree on the means of attaining them (mostly as it related to the State's role).

The goal of the liberal agenda as I see it is not to relieve one of individual responsibility but to create a system that provides much more equtable access to opportunity.

Yes, maximizing freedom/ opportunity/ etc. for each autonomous individual is the chief goal, and to the extent intermediary institutions hinder that goal, they get crushed. Thus the decline of family, community, religiosity, state's rights, etc. In the end, there are only radically free individuals and a Federal government which provides/ protects those freedoms. Europe's a good example, as their evolution toward the modern liberal end state is much further along than America's.

Corporate capitalism has done more to undermine and destroy those communal values you describe than any "liberal" policy ever has.

The threat posed by corporatism is directly correlated to the size and power of government. The larger and more powerful a government is, the greater the incentive for interest groups to engage in lobbying/ regulatory capture. Centralization makes it easier, too.

But you're right, in a sense. True conservatism is suspicious of "bigness", because muscular institutions-- both public and private-- are equally dangerous to the fragile intermediate institutions that we value.
 
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