A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[mgriff]

We could turn "Thanks, Nymeria" into our very own dorked out "Thanks, Obama." As a matter of fact I'm gonna go in the Vanderdoes thread and post that...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

GRRM confirms that Oberyn Martell, Mace Tyrell, and the Magnar of Thenn are currently being cast for S4.

 

[IrishLax]

I thought Season 4 had already been filmed?

 

[IrishinTN]

No. They are just starting filming season 4 because it will be 10 months until they have the show back on again. Those whopping 10 episode seasons are apparently murder. So strenuous we had to take a break to have a film on the life of Liberace rather than a new episode of GoT. Sheesh.

 

[mgriff]

GRRM confirms that Oberyn Martell, Mace Tyrell, and the Magnar of Thenn are currently being cast for S4.

I'm pretty stoked about the Red Viper. Did you have anyone in mind for these roles? Honestly I pictured Mormont as Mace Tyrell while I was reading the books. I'm gonna do some thinking and find my perfect Oberyn.

I thought Season 4 had already been filmed?

Naw they just renew after seeing the ratings for the first episode that way they can kind of cover their losses if the series tanks for some unknown reason. I could've sworn I saw somewhere that they renewed for the fourth and fifth seasons. I might be mistaken but if I find something I'll post it.

No. They are just starting filming season 4 because it will be 10 months until they have the show back on again. Those whopping 10 episode seasons are apparently murder. So strenuous we had to take a break to have a film on the life of Liberace rather than a new episode of GoT. Sheesh.

No that was just to preserve their GoT ratings. Last year, the ninth episode, Blackwater, which is usually the huge event of the season, fell on Memorial Day. The ratings plummeted so they are taking a break this season to see how it goes. No one wanted the RW to go unnoticed.

 

[ND NYC]

so is it pretty well known we are getting the red wedding this season on hbo?

 

[Corry]

It's taken every bit of self control I have not read this whole thread. I do have a question, after season 4 of the show. Could I pick up the yet to be released books and have a good idea of whats going on?

 

[Emcee77]

It's taken every bit of self control I have not read this whole thread. I do have a question, after season 4 of the show. Could I pick up the yet to be released books and have a good idea of whats going on?

Do you mean after season 3? The fourth season hasn't been filmed yet.

Either way, the answer is probably no. The TV series doesn't deviate from the books much, but it leaves out a lot of peripheral stuff to save time and, more importantly, it doesn't move at the same rate with respect to all the different storylines as the books do. It might be ok but I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[IrishinTN]

so is it pretty well known we are getting the red wedding this season on hbo?

Pretty sure that has to happen in one of the last two episodes. Once you hear the bad musicians, you know the...gift is near.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

so is it pretty well known we are getting the red wedding this season on hbo?

Robb, Catelyn, and Edmure were on their way to the Twins in episode 7. It's really the only climax that the producers have set up at this point. Red Wedding in episode 9, and Dondarrion reviving Cat as Lady Stoneheart as the hook to end episode 10.

The Blackfish and Talisa are also on their way to the wedding, so we should get some major clarification on The Heir to the North theory as well.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Robb, Catelyn, and Edmure were on their way to the Twins in episode 7. It's really the only climax that the producers have set up at this point. Red Wedding in episode 9, and Dondarrion reviving Cat as Lady Stoneheart as the hook to end episode 10.

The Blackfish and Talisa are also on their way to the wedding, so we should get some major clarification on The Heir to the North theory as well.

That theory is new to me but totally makes sense, IMO.

1. Robb's wife wasn't killed in the RW. She must have a further role.

2. I am not up to speed on the TV series but the character was re-done to remove the fact that she was from a family loyal to the Lannisters, yes? So if Jaime's conversation is a feint for the books its faster to just erase that part for TV but not really a time saver if we are already done with her.

3. I think they need somebody with abetter claim than Bran who isn't coming back.

On the other hand what gives me pause is why would the family take the risk? It seems unlikely that some Lannister bannerman would have met the real one before and been able to call out the switcheroo, even if Jaime hadn't met the girl.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

so is it pretty well known we are getting the red wedding this season on hbo?

It's next episode. Rains of Castamere is the name of episode 9.

This is a good misdirection because I think non-readers will believe that it might have to do with the Lannisters being on the Reynes side of the story, or that the RW doesn't directly involve Lannisters at the event, so people wouldn't expect it.

 

[ND NYC]

ok looks like the red wedding is coming on hbo in next couple episodes....any chance joffrey takes his final swiig this season as well?
(im thinking they save it for next season)

 

[ND NYC]

Pops who is that in your avatar?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

ok looks like the red wedding is coming on hbo in next couple episodes....any chance joffrey takes his final swiig this season as well?
(im thinking they save it for next season)

Highly doubtful. Joff's death sets off so many important events; it'd be a terrible decision to squeeze it into this season with all the fallout (Sansa leaving with Littlefinger, Tyrion's arrest, etc.) all put off until S4.

 

[Jimmy3Putt]

I'm pretty stoked about the Red Viper.

Viper vs The Mountain is probably my favorite moment in all the books.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Pops who is that in your avatar?

Jim Anchower. He's an old "opinion columnist" from the Onion. I noticed that I was associating posters with their avatars so I went looking for one that matched me in spirit.

...

I have only read the books once so I apologize in advance if I'm missing something obvious but I'm back to re-reading the series and an old idea popped up in my head: Gendry is the true son of Robert and Cierce.

First, I think it's physically possible. Cierce tells Ned that Robert got her pregnant once but she found a woman to take care of it.

Gendry seems to have received better treatment than Robert's other bastards (though it's hard to say for sure). He is apprenticed off in King's Landing by some mystery person. Notice that person is not Robert Arryn. The armorer knew Robert Arryn by sight but didn't associate him with whoever paid the apprentice fee; furthermore Robert never took an interest in any of his bastard children so it has to have been some third party who apparently didn't see fit to do this for all the others.

I think it fits the story arc in that the only Baratheon heir we are aware of is Stannis who has no sons of his own. There is no obvious male Targaryen heir (if Griff is indeed an imposter). Keep in mind that even if the theory surrounding John's parentage is true, he's still a bastard. Rhaegar was married when he scooped up Lyanna so they couldn't have married in secret.

Another telling sign is that an attempt was made to exterminate all of Robert's bastards despite the fact that they pose no obvious threat if they are all bastards. They went to some effort to chase Gendry down despite the fact he was headed to the wall. In addition, Martin has taken Gendry off the grid and out of the reach of anyone who has knowledge of his birth and who might wish him harm. Gendry is safely stowed away to reappear whenever it's convenient but he hasn't been forgotten entirely; we are more or less aware of his current location and situation.

Of course this raises questions. First, who would have apprenticed him off? My guess is Varys, although he had no obvious motive to keep him safe and alive at the time. He did keep Gendry within easy reach at King's Landing and for all we know, he was behind the idea to exterminate Robert's bastards to help clear the way for Griff.

Another obvious problem is that Gendry's status as the "true" son of Robert and Cierce is worthless unless somebody is aware of it. Stannis visited him with Robert Arryn but doesn't seem to believe Gendry is anybody important or he wouldn't be asserting that he is Robert's true heir (I think). It also seems that even if Varys is aware of it, he isn't going to be inclined to help Gendry.

So if I'm right I still have no idea how it would progress from here. Gendry needs somebody to tell him who he is and to find some compelling way to get others to believe in him and anyone who might have that information would have to know where to find him.

So maybe this is all nonsense or there is something I've forgotten that rules this out but thus far Martin has been careful to keep Gendry from knowing he's Robert's son. It seems there has been some effort spent here that would be useless unless there is a key point at which Gendry obtains knowledge of his father (at a minimum) and does something as a result.

 

[IrishLax]

Pops.... hate to rain on your parade buddy, but that theory doesn't work for one simple reason.

In one of Cersei's chapters where she recounts the prophecy she received when she was a girl it states that she will have 3 children and Robert 16... and she has already had her 3. So she can't have a 4th (Gendry).

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Pops.... hate to rain on your parade buddy, but that theory doesn't work for one simple reason.

In one of Cersei's chapters where she recounts the prophecy she received when she was a girl it states that she will have 3 children and Robert 16... and she has already had her 3. So she can't have a 4th (Gendry).

Hey, I posted it to see if it held water. So thanks for the info.

It's hard to see any way around that prophesy. Even if I wanted to parse it so that Gendry doesn't "count" for Cersei since she didn't raise him, that doesn't work since Robert's sixteen are all counted there.

I still think he will have an important role somehow but there's nothing bold about that prediction.

EDIT: Wait! Maybe he isn't counted because he is both of theirs! Ok, that's a total reach.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

First, I think it's physically possible. Cierce tells Ned that Robert got her pregnant once but she found a woman to take care of it.

IIRC, the scene you're referring to was invented for the show; it's mentioned nowhere in the books. The prophecies of Maggy the Frog strongly imply that Robert fathered no children on Cersei:

Cersei:"Will the king and I have children?"
Maggy:"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."
Maggy:"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

We know who Cersei's three children are, and they all belong to Jaime.

Gendry's mother was a worker in an ale house who died when he was young. All he remembers of her is that her hair was blonde. AFAIK, that detail is included simply to lend credence to the fact that "the seed is strong" (i.e. that all of Robert's bastards look like hime).

As a practical matter, it would be pretty far fetched for the Queen to deliver a true-born son, and thereafter hand him off to some peasant without anyone raising an eyebrow.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

IIRC, the scene you're referring to was invented for the show; it's mentioned nowhere in the books. The prophecies of Maggy the Frog strongly imply that Robert fathered no children on Cersei:



We know who Cersei's three children are, and they all belong to Jaime.

Gendry's mother was a worker in an ale house who died when he was young. All he remembers of her is that her hair was blonde. AFAIK, that detail is included simply to lend credence to the fact that "the seed is strong" (i.e. that all of Robert's bastards look like hime).

As a practical matter, it would be pretty far fetched for the Queen to deliver a true-born son, and thereafter hand him off to some peasant without anyone raising an eyebrow.

Are you sure about the first part? I definitely had the idea before I ever saw the show.

As for your last point, my idea was that she wanted the child killed but that the midwife (or whatever) didn't want to kill the baby and just took it out and let it live without Cersei's knowledge.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Are you sure about the first part? I definitely had the idea before I ever saw the show.

Not 100% sure on it, but I remember being confused by that bit in the show. Doesn't Cersei confess to Ned that whenever Robert stumbled up their bedchamber drunkenly grumbling about his "marital rights", she would take care of him by other means?

As for your last point, my idea was that she wanted the child killed but that the midwife (or whatever) didn't want to kill the baby and just took it out and let it live without Cersei's knowledge.

Same issues there, though. The King and Queen are constantly surrounded by people in the Red Keep. How could Cersei: (1) become pregant with a true-born heir; (2) carry to term; (3) deliver; and (4) then dispose of this incredibly important child (in any fashion) without someone knowing and spreading the word? I suppose she could bribe the mid-wife to claim the child was still-born, but that's "Aegon Baby Swap" level conspiracy stuff there. Without some strong circumstantial evidence that such happened, we probably have to discount it.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Not 100% sure on it, but I remember being confused by that bit in the show. Doesn't Cersei confess to Ned that whenever Robert stumbled up their bedchamber drunkenly grumbling about his "marital rights", she would take care of him by other means?



Same issues there, though. The King and Queen are constantly surrounded by people in the Red Keep. How could Cersei: (1) become pregant with a true-born heir; (2) carry to term; (3) deliver; and (4) then dispose of this incredibly important child (in any fashion) without someone knowing and spreading the word? I suppose she could bribe the mid-wife to claim the child was still-born, but that's "Aegon Baby Swap" level conspiracy stuff there. Without some strong circumstantial evidence that such happened, we probably have to discount it.

Well, her version still required (1), (4), some part of (2) since she was pregnant for some measure of time and (3) to get the child out of her.

Anyway, this is all fruitless. I'm convinced by Maggie the Frog's prophesy that Gendry is not the true heir.

 

[Emcee77]

So after finishing the Dunk and Egg stories I decided I really am not ready to tackle the big serious book on my nightstand and I want some more light fiction first. Are there any other books similar to ASOIAF that you guys have read and liked? Any recommendations?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

So after finishing the Dunk and Egg stories I decided I really am not ready to tackle the big serious book on my nightstand and I want some more light fiction first. Are there any other books similar to ASOIAF that you guys have read and liked? Any recommendations?

The Malazan Book of the Fallen. 10 book series, very well written, and shares lots of fine qualities with aSoIaF. "Whiskeyjack" is actually one of the main characters.

 

[Emcee77]

The Malazan Book of the Fallen. 10 book series, very well written, and shares lots of fine qualities with aSoIaF. "Whiskeyjack" is actually one of the main characters.

Ha, really? There is also a "Whiskey Jack" in Neil Gaiman's _American Gods_. I read that one last fall (thought it was just ok; wouldn't recommend it) and I assumed that's where the name came from. I was close in a way, but no cigar.

Thanks for the rec. I'll check it out.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Just stumbled across an excellent Targaryen family tree on reddit:

 

[Emcee77]

Wow interesting. I definitely missed the part in the books where they say that the Mad King was Robert's cousin once removed. Crazy.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Wow interesting. I definitely missed the part in the books where they say that the Mad King was Robert's second cousin. Crazy.

Explains why he had the best claim outside of the royal family.

 

[mgriff]

Just stumbled across an excellent Targaryen family tree on reddit:

I saw this on reddit today as well...