A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[Whiskeyjack]

We're arguing about what is, at worst, a minor plot hole in Martin's story.

Though given the nature of feudal society, Ned's character, and his record of not sharing this sort of stuff with his family, I don't think there's a legitimate complaint here.

 

[ACamp1900]

We're arguing about what is, at worst, a minor plot hole in Martin's story.

Though given the nature of feudal society, Ned's character, and his record of not sharing this sort of stuff with his family, I don't think there's a legitimate complaint here.

-Why are you arguing it then???... I just posted what I found strange about the whole theory... and then you called me obtuse.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Why are you arguing it then???... I just posted what I found strange about the whole theory... and then you called me obtuse.

Lax and I gave you a bunch of examples of why Ned may have chosen not to disown Jon to Catelyn, along with concrete examples from the books of Ned flat out refusing to share this sort of thing with Catelyn. Your continued insistence that it's "strange" in light of all that strikes me as obtuse. I certainly didn't intend it as an insult.

 

[ACamp1900]

Lax and I gave you a bunch of examples of why Ned may have chosen not to disown Jon to Catelyn, along with concrete examples from the books of Ned flat out refusing to share this sort of thing with Catelyn. Your continued insistence that it's "strange" in light of all that strikes me as obtuse. I certainly didn't intend it as an insult.

Lax gave me one hypothetical... should I have answered with my own??

I gave you multiple examples from the books as well… including one you later tried to use for yourself… all while calling me obtuse… what does that make you???

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Lax gave me one hypothetical... should I have answered with my own??

I gave you multiple examples from the books as well… including one you later tried to use for yourself… all while calling me obtuse… what does that make you???

First, I don't understand why you're upset. I think you're being obtuse because the evidence and hypotheticals offered thus far on this subject have been overwhelmingly against your position, but you persist in defending it. And that's fine; I didn't intend it as a serious insult. Sorry if you found that offensive.

Second, what was your example from the book that Ned would have shared this sort of thing with Cat?

 

[ACamp1900]

First, I don't understand why you're upset. I think you're being obtuse because the evidence and hypotheticals offered thus far on this subject have been overwhelmingly against your position, but you persist in defending it. And that's fine; I didn't intend it as a serious insult. Sorry if you found that offensive.

Second, what was your example from the book that Ned would have shared this sort of thing with Cat?

You know what... I just went back and re read the last page of this thread to make sure I’m not nuts... nowhere was anything “overwhelming” presented by anyone… period. I showed how Ned has told Cat where to end conversations in the past with total loyalty from her… I also showed how Cat viewed jon as a threat to her children BECAUSE of his bastard status... and challenged anyone to provide a lack of trust between th two... you showed how he may have held a few things from her… and how Cat may have viewed jon as an equal threat If she knew who he supposedly is (Which was never part of my question to begin with) the rest is all theoretical or hypothetical… or both.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

You know what... I just went back and re read the last page of this thread to make sure I’m not nuts... nowhere was anything “overwhelming” presented by anyone… period.

Well, no one has agreed with you, and several of us have argued against your point. But perhaps "overwhelming" is an exaggeration.

I showed how Ned has told Cat where to end conversations in the past with total loyalty from her and how he never showed a lack of trust in her.

Are you referring to the bit about Ashara Dayne (and is this your concrete example?) If so, I'm not sure how that supports your position. Catelyn asked him about a rumor that related to Jon's alleged mother, to which Ned responded by telling her nothing and asking her to never bring it up again. And that shows total loyalty? It might not show a lack of trust, but it at least establishes Ned as an intensely private person. And we've since learned more important details from Ned's past (Tourney at Harrenhal, Sweetsister, etc.) that he apparently never shared with his family.

I also showed how Cat viewed jon as a threat to her children BECAUSE of his bastard status... and how Cat may have viewed jon as an equal threat If she knew who he supposedly is (Which was never part of my question to begin with) the rest is all theoretical or hypothetical… or both.

No one disputes that. Ned apparently didn't think Cat was a serious danger to Jon.

 

[ACamp1900]

Well, no one has agreed with you, and several of us have argued against your point. But perhaps "overwhelming" is an exaggeration.



Are you referring to the bit about Ashara Dayne (and is this your concrete example?) If so, I'm not sure how that supports your position. Catelyn asked him about a rumor that related to Jon's alleged mother, to which Ned responded by telling her nothing and asking her to never bring it up again. And that shows total loyalty? It might not show a lack of trust, but it at least establishes Ned as an intensely private person. And we've since learned more important details from Ned's past (Tourney at Harrenhal, Sweetsister, etc.) that he apparently never shared with his family.



No one disputes that. Ned apparently didn't think Cat was a serious danger to Jon.

We don't know for sure that the tourney and SS are held from Cat though do we?? As I asked earlier...


Anyway, here it is: If I am in Ned's place (even knowing everything I know about Ned) I tell my wife something... anything... to make clear this boy is to be kept safe and looked at in a good light, and my marriage doesn't suffer needlessly... especially if the theory circumstances are in fact the case....

If he’s just my bastard??... well, then I probably play the hand that Ned did... and just eat it. That's where I struggle... the only thing obtuse here is not being able to see that as a rational line of thought... or a possiblity.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

We don't know for sure that the tourney and SS are held from Cat though do we?? As I asked earlier...

This is what I'm talking about when I say "obtuse". No, we don't know for certain that Ned didn't share those two things with Catelyn, since Martin didn't provide us with an exhaustive list of subjects the two had discussed. But he spent a significant amount of time describing (1) how intensely private Ned was; and (2) how reluctant he was to discuss the events surrounding Jon's parentage. So it's a reasonable inference.

Anyway, here it is: If I am in Ned's place (even knowing everything I know about Ned) I tell my wife something... anything... to make clear this boy is to be kept safe and looked at in a good light, and my marriage doesn't suffer needlessly... especially if the theory circumstances are in fact the case....

If he’s just my bastard??... well, then I probably play the hand that Ned did... and just eat it. That's where I struggle... the only thing obtuse here is not being able to see that as a rational line of thought... or a possiblity.

Lyanna's final words-- "Promise me, Ned."-- haunted her older brother for the rest of his life. We don't know what that promise was, but if it was indeed to take care of Jon and to tell no one of his true lineage, can you still honestly say it would be "strange" for Ned (knowing what we do of his nature) to stubbornly keep that promise, even from Catelyn? I don't.

No one has argued that your position is irrational or impossible. I just think you're doing a pretty poor job of putting yourself in Ned's shoes. The man risked (and lost) far more than this promise cost him later on for duty and honor.

 

[ND NYC]

so...my own guess/hunch/theory that at the very end of ALL this (when GRRM is 100 yrs old) that Jon Snow ends up marrying Danerys Targaryen cannot be because, they are basically cousins. (both with targaryen blood)

 

[ACamp1900]

This is what I'm talking about when I say "obtuse". No, we don't know for certain that Ned didn't share those two things with Catelyn, since Martin didn't provide us with an exhaustive list of subjects the two had discussed. But he spent a significant amount of time describing (1) how intensely private Ned was; and (2) how reluctant he was to discuss the events surrounding Jon's parentage. So it's a reasonable inference.



Lyanna's final words-- "Promise me, Ned."-- haunted her older brother for the rest of his life. We don't know what that promise was, but if it was indeed to take care of Jon and to tell no one of his true lineage, can you still honestly say it would be "strange" for Ned (knowing what we do of his nature) to stubbornly keep that promise, even from Catelyn? I don't.

No one has argued that your position is irrational or impossible. I just think you're doing a pretty poor job of putting yourself in Ned's shoes. The man risked (and lost) far more than this promise cost him later on.

I'm obtuse for stating a point you continue to pound over and over may not have in fact even have happened??? wow

On the point of obtuse, how many times do I have to type it??? Telling Cat who Jon’s parents actually are isn’t my point with Cat!

As far as your points-- I don’t see Tourney at Harrenhal being some major event in Ned’s life... and don’t see why he would have anything to hide there anyway… because of the flowers at the end??? Sorry, I honestly don’t see how anything attaches to Ned being private there.

I also don’t see this ‘affair’… I know of rumors being mentioned in the books… If my wife brought up a name of a women I was unjustly liked to in an affair I would react as Ned did… I don’t know if that’s being ‘private.’

On the flip side he did tell Bran about his owing his life to Reed… and told him the name of the man who almost killed him... that seems like a pretty private thing to just share with someone, no?

He has held the truth of Jon's mother, he know that much for certain.

All in all I don’t see a ‘significant amount of time’ being spent establishing his privacy… at least where his family is concerned...

As I have said before I like the theory, it’s exciting and well put together, but I still see no rational reason to let this hatred of Jon linger… unless he’s really a bastard.

 

[ACamp1900]

so...my own guess/hunch/theory that at the very end of ALL this (when GRRM is 100 yrs old) that Jon Snow ends up marrying Danerys Targaryen cannot be because, they are basically cousins. (both with targaryen blood)

I still like Bran taking over Cersei and making her choke herself out just before he turns into a tree...

I honestly wonder if GRRM will end it all with a 'make your own assumptions' type ending.

 

[ND NYC]

just too many damn bastards in this series i tell ya...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

so...my own guess/hunch/theory that at the very end of ALL this (when GRRM is 100 yrs old) that Jon Snow ends up marrying Danerys Targaryen cannot be because, they are basically cousins. (both with targaryen blood)

The Targs are all about incest, so that's not much of an obstacle to a union between Jon and Dany. If anything, it's unlikely to happen because it'd be too predictable and neat for Martin.

I'm obtuse for stating a point you continue to pound over and over may not have in fact even have happened???

No, you're obtuse for continuously pointing out that we don't really "know" something which can be easily inferred from what little we do know. Martin simply doesn't spell many things out definitively.

I also don’t see this ‘affair’… I know of rumors being mentioned in the books… If my wife brought up a name of a women I was unjustly liked to in an affair I would react as Ned did… I don’t know if that’s being ‘private.’

So if your wife kept hearing rumors that you cheated with a woman named Ashara, and asked you about her, you would tell her nothing and ask her to never bring it up again? If true, your marriage is much different than mine.

All in all I don’t see a ‘significant amount of time’ being spent on that… a little?? Sure.

It's significant in that we're told very little about Ned's marriage to Catelyn, and Martin mentions many times how reluctant Ned is to discuss this subject with her specifically.

As I have said before I like the theory, it’s exciting and well put together, but I still see no rational reason to let this hatred of Jon linger… unless he’s really a bastard.

Common jealousy seems like an unreasonable motivation to you? Catelyn is a proud woman, and she admits that Jon's presence is a constant reminder of Ned's apparent infidelity.

 

[ND NYC]

the more i think about it the more aggravated i get with GRRM and his inability to put all these novels out by now...guy has diarhhea of the word processor. way too many chapters of tangential events, characters, plots that will, in hte end, have no baring on the end of all this.
dont get me wrong i love the plot/character development and all his detail but surely....surely he could have done it all in full by now had he stayed focused and had an editor who knew what they were doing.
im telling you, this guy just might die before he finishes and leave all us saps hanging in the breeze on this.

 

[ND NYC]

didnt stephen king grant a dying guys wish on his dark tower series where he told him (visited him in hospital) basicaly the whole endgame, gave him copies of his drafts to read before he died, with the book being published about a year later.
coulda sworn that was king.

 

[ACamp1900]

The Targs are all about incest, so that's not much of an obstacle to a union between Jon and Dany. If anything, it's unlikely to happen because it'd be too predictable and neat for Martin.



No, you're obtuse for continuously pointing out that we don't really "know" something which can be easily inferred from what little we do know. Martin simply doesn't spell many things out definitively.



So if your wife kept hearing rumors that you cheated with a woman named Ashara, and asked you about her, you would tell her nothing and ask her to never bring it up again? If true, your marriage is much different than mine.



It's significant in that we're told very little about Ned's marriage to Catelyn, and Martin mentions many times how reluctant Ned is to discuss this subject with her specifically.



Common jealousy seems like an unreasonable motivation to you? Catelyn is a proud woman, and she admits that Jon's presence is a constant reminder of Ned's apparent infidelity.

I have addressed him keeping these thigns from his family without you doing anything but calling me obtuse for it. I'm honestly very close to the ignore list with you if you insist on being insulting.

We are shown numerous times in GoT how much love has been built between the two and Cat makes it clear numerous times in Clash and SoS how she basically died with Ned and how caring he was... all of this after their rather poor beginning and yet nothing can be inferred from that other than 'we know very little about the marriage'?? Then your last two paragraph's speak to my point as much as anyone else's... if he is so reluctant and knows she is jealous could that not support Jon simply being a bastard as much as anything else???

 

[returnofthemack]

Sorry if this is a stupid question guys; I've read all the books so far, but that was before I started med school and I've forgotten a lot of the later stuff haha. Isn't there another Targaryen in DwD? I have completely forgotten about what happens regarding him.

 

[ACamp1900]

Aegon (son of RT I think) is back and apparently alive near the end of the last book.

 

[IrishinTN]

He got killed by khol Drogo when he struck Daenarys in front of him. They poured molten gold over his head to give him "his crown".

Edit: sorry, you said DaD, not GoT. My bad.

 

[ACamp1900]

He got killed by khol Drogo when he struck Daenarys in front of him. They poured molten gold over his head to give him "his crown".

Viserys(sp)... that happened in the first book...

 

[ND NYC]

Sorry if this is a stupid question guys; I've read all the books so far, but that was before I started med school and I've forgotten a lot of the later stuff haha. Isn't there another Targaryen in DwD? I have completely forgotten about what happens regarding him.

i remember that too....didnt Tyrion meet up with him i think in book 5? he (that lost targaryen) was the one on the boat with them, no? (on that foggy river with all sorts of crazy stuff happening-plague all around them, etc)

wierd thing is i read the hobbit and lord of the rings trilogy about 35 years ago...i remember pretty much everything like it was yesterday...i started reading all these books when a buddy said hbo was adapting it and he was halfway thru book 2 about 5 yrs ago and i have a hard time remembering so much of this series. i'm gettn old...

 

[ACamp1900]

Aegon (son of RT I think) is back and apparently alive near the end of the last book.

^

i remember that too....didnt Tyrion meet up with him i think in book 5? he (that lost targaryen) was the one on the boat with them, no? (on that foggy river with all sorts of crazy stuff happening-plague all around them, etc)

wierd thing is i read the hobbit and lord of the rings trilogy about 35 years ago...i remember pretty much everything like it was yesterday...i started reading all these books when a buddy said hbo was adapting it and he was halfway thru book 2 about 5 yrs ago and i have a hard time remembering so much of this series. i'm gettn old...

 

[IrishinTN]

But didn't he get toasted by the dragon at the end of the book? Dang it, I'm confused now.

 

[ACamp1900]

Did he??... I know what you described first was not Aegon... though maybe I missed something???

 

[returnofthemack]

I remember Quentyn Martell is the one who tries to release the dragons. But ACamp is right: Aegon Targaryen - A Wiki of Ice and Fire

 

[IrishinTN]

I remember the kid with the bodyguards on the boat with Tyrion and they tried to steal a dragon at the end and the kid got incinerated because he thought he was dragon folk. Turns out he wasn't.

Yeah I didn't pay attention to nd nyc's first question pertaining to DwD and not GoT.

 

[IrishinTN]

Well, frig. See, he takes too long to write these damn things. Simple minds like mine get lost. I actually have to go back and re-read some character pov's just to remember who the he k they are.

 

[ND NYC]

I remember Quentyn Martell is the one who tries to release the dragons. But ACamp is right: Aegon Targaryen - A Wiki of Ice and Fire

lots of good info in that link on Aegon...thx for posting that, ROTM.


clears up some things for me...and also has me re-thinking some others.

this whole ASOIAF is like a literary rubiks cube

 

[returnofthemack]

Well, frig. See, he takes too long to write these damn things. Simple minds like mine get lost. I actually have to go back and re-read some character pov's just to remember who the he k they are.

haha True. Even worse is, since I haven't read them in a while, I'll watch the show and then be completely confused and be racking my brain regarding whether or not that was in the book. Regardless, it's a great show, and a great series of books. But I really, really hope the next one comes out soon.